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2019/01/15 07:24:57
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
1) anything in italics is fluff text it does not effect the rules so irrelevant
Page number?
Pg 193 even he says its fluff text
The Hammer of Sunderance is a battle
cannon with glorious reputation. It is said the
blows it deals the enemy are the Emperor’s
wrath made manifest, and as it punches
into enemy tanks and fortifications, it leaves
grievous wounds and crippled armour in
its wake.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Peregrine wrote: Can we remember that this is the tactics thread, where we discuss how to win real games, not YMDC where masturbating over how clever we are for finding broken rules is acceptable? Obviously in real games the storm trooper + Valkyrie formation is possible to use, so can we get back to discussing how best to use it and just ignore BCB's absurd tangents?
I feel dirty saying it but BCB is right the valkrie formation can currently be taken but only without valkyries so tactically the best thing is not to take it unless a TO has specifically ruled otherwise
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/15 07:29:24
2019/01/15 07:39:32
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
You don't seriously believe GW Published a formation that they actually intend to be impossible to play with, right?
I get that they're god-awful at rules writing, I do. But I don't think the rules writers literally go out of their way to publish expensive hardback suppliments with formations in, and then you go down to Warhammer World and play in an offical GW Tournament and the judge comes over and goes,
AH HA! GOTCHA! That formation doesn't work. You lose. Thanks for playing the GW Lottery!
The FAQ Specifically calls out the fact they have to have the Doctrine to be able to take the formation, so it's not even a question of feeling like it has to be a AM Formation full of Scions, but feel there's balence implications with extra shots on a +5 so want you to take the formation but lose the Doctrine as a tradeoff for the +1 to hit. This is really cut and dried and if your TO disagrees then I'm really not sure what to say.
Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder.
2019/01/15 08:35:11
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Oh FFS this is ridiculous. No, GW did not publish a formation with multiple rules involving interactions between the detachment's Valkyries and infantry units just to say "lol, just kidding, you can't legally take both of the units required for this stratagem to work". Nobody gives a about some over-literal RAW interpretation that nothing about the detachment works, out in the real world every reasonable player sees a stratagem that says "pick a TEMPESTUS DROP FORCE VALKYRIE" and concludes that yes, a TEMPESTUS DROP FORCE VALKYRIE is a thing that must be able to exist and any rule interpretation otherwise must be wrong.
So, again, can we please stop with the inane tangents about "LOOK HOW CLEVER I AM I FOUND A BROKEN RAW" and deal with the reality that when people are actually playing the game they're going to assume that using the detachment is in fact possible? This is the tactics thread, for figuring out the best way to win real games, not YMDC.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/15 08:50:31
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2019/01/15 09:20:53
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
It's not my fault GW can't write rules properly. If you ignore one rule you allow ignoring them all.
False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which two completely opposing arguments appear to be logically equivalent when in fact they are not. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.
TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.
BaconCatBug wrote: It's not a fallacy. Explain to me why it's OK to ignore Rule A but to not ignore Rule B?
It's a fallacy because, while there is not mathematical proof or a signed statement from GW endorsing the position, there is overwhelming evidence that it is possible to take a Valkyrie in the detachment because the detachment rules explicitly refer to a Valkyrie in the detachment. If GW's rules refer to a TEMPESTUS DROP FORCE VALKYRIE then such a thing must exist. Any argument otherwise might be entertaining YMDC fodder but in the real world if you try to argue that the stratagem doesn't function and their army isn't legal you're going to get called a TFG and booted from the community.
The same is not true of all of your various false equivalencies. There is no rules support whatsoever for whatever your latest example is, no reason at all to believe that GW intended it to work that way other than your desire to create an example in a YMDC argument. If you told your theory about "all my attacks always hit" or whatever to a group of players the would, again, call you a TFG and tell you to stop bothering them with your nonsense.
You can pretend that the two situations are equivalent because you enjoy derailing threads with inane YMDC arguments, but no amount of BUT THE RULES SAY SO is going to matter in the real world. Nobody gives a about RAW when RAW is absurd, just like nobody played by RAW with 5th edition LOS. And, again, this is the tactics thread, not YMDC. RAW masturbation isn't helping anyone figure out how to win games in the real world.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/15 10:39:31
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2019/01/15 10:56:56
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Polonius wrote: And that, thus, is the perennial failure of RAW: nothing is designed to be read exactly as written, with no context or interpretation. I've been on dakka for a long time, and people keep arguing that RAW is the only true way to avoid ambiguity, which I suppose is true. But the rules aren't designed to read that way. Almost nothing is.
Top of that not only is it not intended it's not even possible. Your game will sooner or later halt into situation where rules don't cover it and ergo you either abandon the game or apply RAI. Ergo anybody claiming they play pure RAW is flat oyt lying.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2019/01/15 11:11:23
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
A friend of mine has a large collection of Tempestus Scions, and he likes the look of the new formation in the Vigilus book.
ALL RAI/RAW RULES BOLLOCKS ASIDE, what would be strong but not fully min/maxed list look like? He has... Literally triples of most things and loads of troops etc. Main opponents are Custodes (pure foots logging, no bikes) Orks (massed Boyz) Tyranids (lots of bugs and a few big ones) Space marines (Ultramarines) and Chaos (Black Legion with berserkers)
40k: Thousand Sons World Eaters
30k: Imperial Fists 405th Company
2019/01/15 12:30:26
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
I played in the Last Chance Open this weekend with a Catachan Conclave Brigade, Catachan Emperors Wrath Artillery Spearhead and a 3 jetbike Custodes Supreme detachment. Full list is below.
Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts]
Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts]
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Hurricane Bolter [10pts]
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 165pts]: Salvo Launcher [15pts]
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 165pts]: Salvo Launcher [15pts]
++ Total: [27 PL, 490pts] ++
Total 2000 Points 17 CP ( 15 CP after specialist detachments)
I won the first two games, then lost two and won my last for a 3-2 finish. Super enjoyable games and the guys from Dice and Decks ran a slick operation.
My games were:
T1: 3 x Greater Brass khorne Scorpions
T2: Chaos Soup with Bloodletter bomb, 2 deamon princes, cultist blob, 2 nurgle leviathans and blightlord terminators
T3: Tau soup with shield drones, battle suits and a big dude
T4: Castellan, Deathwatch plasma chaps and Ad mech battalion
T5: Eldar with 3 hemlocks and shining spears
Tactics from a guard perspective were:
Spoiler:
The emperors wrath artillery Fire twice strat and V for C combo with basilisks against Chaos is awesome especially with catachans reroll number of shots.
The Old grudge Warlord trait that allows reroll for wounds combined with a punisher tank commander can take a surprisingly high number of wounds off a titan.
The Conclave specialist detachment didn’t blow me away. My army can deal with assault armies pretty well already by thinning them out with all the tank and artillery fire and using swooping dive on the jetbike shield captains to throw them off balance. Fighting after death would be good if the enemy attacks the combined squad that is buffed by Straken and a Priest but they’d be foolish to not shoot that squad and just assault another. 3 x S4 attacks is scary… 1 is not.
I gave a platoon commander the martyr of snod relic. It basically means you need to charge him first hope he dies to overwatch so he can buff the unit behind giving them a +1 attack and fearless. A second priest would do as well and not rely on getting a charge, save CP and not result in giving the opponent Headhunter.
I used infantry squads to act as meat shields for the jetbike shield captains. They put the fear of god into people so 3 squads minimum in front was needed against gunlines.
I castled up with the wyvern, 2 x basilisks 2 x mortar squads and two infantry squads as bubble wrap. Bubble wrap wasn’t needed against Tau or the Castellan list as they were gunlines so I should have had them moving forward earlier. When 2 infantry squads were needed as bubblewrap then Straken (with his two orders) and the platoon commander (with his 1/2 using the strat) actually gave plenty of orders to the remaining squad who were moving forward. I always mobbed up 2 squads anyway and it could be assumed that at least one (probably more) infantry squads were going to be wiped out if I went second so I think peoples obsession with having lots of company commanders to give orders is misplaced.
The wyvern was pretty good combo’d with yarrick (although I didn’t get to play any orks so Sgt harker would probably have been better). With the number of fly models around a Hydra would be an interesting replacement (saving 10 points too)
Yarrick V Harker is an interesting one. He would have been very helpful against orks and against the eldar his power Klaw killed a shining spear but I wonder if it was worth the 50 points. An extra heavy bolter probably would have done as much damage.
The rough riders with 2 x plasma were my only reserve unit. They never failed to kill at least one of themselves (they ride horses to battel, no way they weren’t over charging). They actually took one wound off a castellan in a shooting phase and then made a charge. They lost all but the sergeant to overwatch but he managed to take two wounds off the knight. His real purpose was to prevent overwatch on a shield captain as he charged in which he achieved. With the plasmas they’re 25 points more expensive than a sentinel with multilaser but their ability to ambush distracted many people and they always resulted in a point for Recon.
I lost against the Tau due to poor secondary choices (shield drones make head hunter hard to get and with the sheer number of models I take, recon would have been much easier to achieve), using infantry squads as needless bubble wrap (yarrick, who was commanding my artillery could have dealt with any assault element they would have thrown at me) and by not meat shielding my shield captains properly.
The castellan build was really hard to deal with. He had clearly read the vigilus book so knew to target the basilisks first. Once again my characters weren’t sufficiently meatshielded and Butchers Bill was a poor choice for a secondary against such a resilient army. Against a multi knight list I could have drawn out the ion shield strat and then switched fire to another but with only 1 knight it meant it wasn’t an option. The guard element of my army simply didn’t have the tools to deal with him so once the jetbikes were killed I was screwed.
I had no psychic phase although I did use the custodes deny strat once or twice. Honestly I didn’t think it effected me too badly. A primaris psyker or astropath wouldn’t have been in range to deny anything anyway and against the Castellan my understanding is that he’d have to be the closest model to smite and my enemy could have denied anyway.
2019/01/15 13:16:17
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Dr. Mills wrote: So, let's steer this back onto tactics shall we?
A friend of mine has a large collection of Tempestus Scions, and he likes the look of the new formation in the Vigilus book.
ALL RAI/RAW RULES BOLLOCKS ASIDE, what would be strong but not fully min/maxed list look like? He has... Literally triples of most things and loads of troops etc. Main opponents are Custodes (pure foots logging, no bikes) Orks (massed Boyz) Tyranids (lots of bugs and a few big ones) Space marines (Ultramarines) and Chaos (Black Legion with berserkers)
I’ve got a list I’m building that has different feedback and perspectives on it in the list section if you like.
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
2019/01/15 13:34:17
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Dr. Mills wrote: ALL RAI/RAW RULES BOLLOCKS ASIDE, what would be strong but not fully min/maxed list look like? He has... Literally triples of most things and loads of troops etc. Main opponents are Custodes (pure foots logging, no bikes) Orks (massed Boyz) Tyranids (lots of bugs and a few big ones) Space marines (Ultramarines) and Chaos (Black Legion with berserkers)
If you're playing that grav-chute deployment counts as deploying so you still get movement after? I'd do this at 2000 points (leaves you with about 49 points left):
Avenger Strike Fighter: Defensive Heavy Stubber, 2x Lascannon, Tactical Bombs
Valkyries . Valkyrie: 2x Multiple Rocket Pods, Multi-laser
. . 2x Heavy Bolters: 2x Heavy bolter
Here's how I'd set up.
Spoiler:
on board:
valk
1 Prime
5 scions
4 melta command
1 inq
valk
1 prime
5 scions
4 melta command
2 Acolyte
valk
1 prime
5 scions
5 scions
1 inq
avenger
taurox
3 acolytes
taurox
3 acolytes
deep strike:
5 scions
5 scions
5 scions
4 volly command
Notes:
I'd make the prime that rides with the two scion squads the warlord for the trait so that you can supercharge everything and get away with it.
I don't think the relic on the datasheet is that good, so I'd stick with the regular ones. Laurels / Kurov's / Auto-Reliquary are always solid choices, and it might be worth flirting with the idea of the Dagger to set up a melta-scion bomb since they can just walk up to something, though bubblewrap will help negate that since Tempestus is a fairly close range list.
Your taurox should keep at range and kite the enemy as much as possible, with the acolytes jumping on objectives as needed. They could be buffed up to make them more resilient with the remaining points, but don't go crazy otherwise you'd be better off just cramming more scions in.
The hotshot volly guys drop 23.5" away from something and all fire 16 hotshots into it, and keep firing at that range as needed. They're meant to be really annoying.
The avenger is meant as a big scary distraction while the rest of your stuff does the real job. I'd expect it to be focus fired 90% of the time, which is okay because that's how you keep your valkyries alive. Other than that, everything else is pretty straightforward. Move transports up, drop troops out, move troops up, murder (preferably more of them than yourself). The trick is to figuring out how best to drop everything at once when you can only protect one set of valkyrie passengers from the grav-chute risk.
This also starts out with a ton of things on the table, so if you want to deep strike more for some reason, it's always an option.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/15 13:34:34
I played in the Last Chance Open this weekend with a Catachan Conclave Brigade, Catachan Emperors Wrath Artillery Spearhead and a 3 jetbike Custodes Supreme detachment. Full list is below.
Hey thanks for the write up. I've been very interested in allying in wyverns with my guard battalion for my Knights. Typically I just run guard battalion with 3x3 mortars. I am interested in your experience more with the Wyverns, did you ever use the half movement strat? I was thinking of allying them in just to use this strat but with it only able to work on infantry kind of limits it. Would the Wyvern be better off as 3x3 more mortars?
2019/01/17 15:32:57
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
I played in the Last Chance Open this weekend with a Catachan Conclave Brigade, Catachan Emperors Wrath Artillery Spearhead and a 3 jetbike Custodes Supreme detachment. Full list is below.
Hey thanks for the write up. I've been very interested in allying in wyverns with my guard battalion for my Knights. Typically I just run guard battalion with 3x3 mortars. I am interested in your experience more with the Wyverns, did you ever use the half movement strat? I was thinking of allying them in just to use this strat but with it only able to work on infantry kind of limits it. Would the Wyvern be better off as 3x3 more mortars?
No problem dude. I never got to use the half movement/no overwatch strat. It never seems like it would be more beneficial that just shooting the same unit. I suppose as the Wyvern got degraded and its BS decreased it may have become a better option but to be honest my army can take on Assault armies pretty well. Its gunlines that were the issue. The Tau wouldn't have been overly effected as "for the greater good" would allow the surrounding units to shoot for them. Thinking about it now it might have helped a bit though. The fact its limited to infantry does suck though.
I have been toying with getting rid of the wyvern and taking another mortar squad and Creed as well. With a bit of rejigging I could take Creed and the 3x3 mortars in a spearhead. His 3 orders would be able to allow full rerolls for all 3 mortar squads and the 2 free extra CP would be well worth it. They'd also be able to use the Cadian Strat...The mortars ability to hide within buildings on the bottom floor meant they were harder to target due to ITC rules.The wyvern did act as a distraction from the basilisks which were the real star of the show and the reroll to wound is nothing to sneer at. I had all my artillery paired with Yarrick for reroll 1s to hit (hoping I'd face orks for reroll all misses but no luck) which combo'd with the Wyvern did work well.
4d6 is scary but it averages only approx 15 shots. 3x3 mortars equals 30 shots on average and with creed they'd all be able to reroll hits which means I'll probably take the 3x3 mortars (ideally with Creed) if its a 1 for 1 choice.
2019/01/17 17:49:56
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Does anybody use the Bldae of Conquest on their Commissars/Lord Commissars? Does it make your Commissars more bitey. Does it improve their chances as a counter to charges?
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
2019/01/18 10:46:27
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
diagramdude wrote: The issue is NOT is it a battle cannon or not. The issue is whether it is a turret weapon or not. Grinding Advance lets you fire your turret weapon twice, so you have to find someone asinine enough to argue the relic is not a turret weapon because it doesn't appear on a list written before the relic existed.
And it then specifically defines which weapons are turret weapons if it is not on that list you dont get grinding advance.
The following weapons are turret weapons: battle cannon, Conqueror battle cannon, Demolisher cannon, Eradicator nova cannon, Executioner plasma cannon, Exterminator autocannon, Punisher gatling cannon, Stygies Vanquisher battle cannon, twin lascannon and Vanquisher battle cannon.
So currently its not on that list.
Man I wish people like this stuck to war machine
2019/01/19 07:59:46
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Apple Peel wrote: Does anybody use the Blade of Conquest on their Commissars/Lord Commissars? Does it make your Commissars more bitey? Does it improve their chances as a counter to charges?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/19 08:00:26
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
2019/01/19 10:42:23
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Apple Peel wrote: Does anybody use the Blade of Conquest on their Commissars/Lord Commissars? Does it make your Commissars more bitey? Does it improve their chances as a counter to charges?
Being honest the only "bitey" guard in assault are ogryn/bullgryns and straken. You might take a few wounds if you get to fight first and youve catachans buffed with a priest but outside that t3 & t-shirt saves just means we're going to die once the clubbing starts. I find that we're better off taking the 1 relic and for me thats the aquilla. Our relics arent that spectacular compared to other armies (which is kind of fluffy i suppose)
2019/01/21 13:21:13
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Apple Peel wrote: Does anybody use the Blade of Conquest on their Commissars/Lord Commissars? Does it make your Commissars more bitey? Does it improve their chances as a counter to charges?
Being honest the only "bitey" guard in assault are ogryn/bullgryns and straken. You might take a few wounds if you get to fight first and youve catachans buffed with a priest but outside that t3 & t-shirt saves just means we're going to die once the clubbing starts. I find that we're better off taking the 1 relic and for me thats the aquilla. Our relics arent that spectacular compared to other armies (which is kind of fluffy i suppose) [/quote
Does nobody think of the rough riders?
Sniff.
Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder.
2019/01/21 15:30:49
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Hammer of Sunderance is pretty good I'll give you that. It does effectively costs an additional CP to use it (it costs a CP to upgrade your detachment to that specialist detachment)
The point I was trying to make was that the close combat relics are pretty meh when you're giving them to at best a company commander/lord commisar. I would rather steer towards guard stratagems rather than their relics and the Aquilla enables that. Its just my personal preference though.
2019/01/23 09:27:53
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Anyone have any luck taking down a castellan with a majority AM force. I take 3 shield Captain jetbikes with my force and they were the only ones that had much luck taking some of his wounds in cc although I did take two wounds using 5 x rough riders overcharging plasma guns and gloriously charging to their doom. One died to overcharging (without wounding him) and then 3 more died to overwatch but the sergeant managed to stick him. He then proceeded to leg it. The 3++ strat fagainst shooting was a pain and the "counts as having full wounds" strat was disheartening.
2019/01/23 12:03:31
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
I killed a Knight Crusader through his 3++ the other day with a pure AM force... Pask in an executioner with lascannon and plasma fired first, declared overlapping fields of fire, then another executioner commander with the same setup fired, then my relic battle cannon tank commander with 3x heavy bolters finished it. Very important to have a warlord with old grudges too, so you can reroll wounds. Force so many 3++ saves, and he only needs to fail like 14 of them, less from the relic gun, since each shot is multi damage.
2019/01/23 16:17:34
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Old grudges seems to be the way to go alrite. I dont have access to overlapping fields of fire with catachans unfortunately. Would i be right assuming you went first? With the number of drops i have i have to assume ill be going second. Tank commanders and basilisks are high on a castellans kill list. With the "treat as if on full wounds" strat it really means that a castellan cannot be allowed to survive a turn. A lascannon might need to replace at least 1 of my 3x3 cadian mortars.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/23 19:55:40
about some over-literal 
Thousand Sons 
World Eaters
Imperial Fists 405th Company 
