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They have models in Krieg/Forgeworld just they are horse.

w1zard wrote:
Rough riders are most likely getting phased out next expansion because of GW's no models no rules policy. They don't even have models anyway so you need to convert. I would advise players to stay far away from them, because they aren't worth the effort if they are going to be completely invalidated in 2 years.

To be fair, two years is a pretty long time to have an army given GW's typical release cycle. If you're afraid to invest in models because they might not be competitive in two years you're going to have a hard time playing the game at all.

Do we have any tactics to counter a Space Wolf stormwolf laden with wulfen and a few characters? I had a stormwolf fly up to my lines tonight and I had to shoot everything at the stormwolf to get it down and kill off the wulfen leaving three buff characters to run around and cause problems for another turn.

It is T7 right?

The battle cannon on Pask's tank + the hammer of sundrance on another Cadian Tank Commander, using Pound Them to Dust, Overlapping Fields of Fire, and the Relic of Lost Cadia (for reroll 1s to wound (probably not necessary)), kill it with just those 2 weapons on average.

I'm infiltrating this thread to gain knowledge for my GSC.

Quick question:

I'm looking for some long range firesupport against tanks. Are Basilisks any good?

I know the competative option for me would be to just go supreme command with 3 Tank Commanders.

But that's a bit cheesy for my taste, so I want to go with a Vanguard detachment with a Company Commander and 3 Basilisks.

Good idea? Or should I stick to the Russes?

 Causalis wrote:
I'm infiltrating this thread to gain knowledge for my GSC.

Quick question:

I'm looking for some long range firesupport against tanks. Are Basilisks any good?

I know the competative option for me would be to just go supreme command with 3 Tank Commanders.

But that's a bit cheesy for my taste, so I want to go with a Vanguard detachment with a Company Commander and 3 Basilisks.

Good idea? Or should I stick to the Russes?

With GSC you could be able to get away with just 3 normal russes. Playing cult, you usually have enough stuff in the enemy's face that they are less likely to pay attention to the tanks, and they output more firepower than the bassies

 necron99 wrote:
Do we have any tactics to counter a Space Wolf stormwolf laden with wulfen and a few characters? I had a stormwolf fly up to my lines tonight and I had to shoot everything at the stormwolf to get it down and kill off the wulfen leaving three buff characters to run around and cause problems for another turn.

Honestly, anyone who attempts to shove a flyer into our side of the board should be prepared to have a bad day. You MMM a squad of infantry or 2 and surround the flyer. Then you blow it the hell up and nothing can fit outside of it's base and less than 1" away from your troops. Congrats, your 80pts of guardsmen just "killed" hundreds of points of enemy assault units. Works every time.

 Causalis wrote:
I'm infiltrating this thread to gain knowledge for my GSC.

Quick question:

I'm looking for some long range firesupport against tanks. Are Basilisks any good?

I know the competative option for me would be to just go supreme command with 3 Tank Commanders.

But that's a bit cheesy for my taste, so I want to go with a Vanguard detachment with a Company Commander and 3 Basilisks.

Good idea? Or should I stick to the Russes?

The problem with GSC is they are mostly infantry based, and their organic vehicles are going to die to a stiff breeze. If you include something like a Leman Russ, ALL of the enemy's anti tank firepower is going to have nothing better to shoot at than that 1 tank. I like the artillery because at least they can hide out of LoS and GSC have plenty of screening and area denial to keep them relatively safe. And leman russes without regiment bonuses just aren't as good as pure IG tanks. So keep that in mind, as well.

Most competitive option for GSC is to take NO Imperial guard units...

GSC is in my opinion best played as full infantry. That way you totally deny your enemy the use of his AT weapons.

Unlike guard, the gsc actually have good AT infantry and can get to the cloxe proximity of the enemy very fast.

Unlike guard, gsc have automatic deep strike and bodyguard rules for all units and several characters who are either great in CC or have great boosting abilities for other units.

So the infantry horde with strong characters seems like the competitive way to go.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Honestly, anyone who attempts to shove a flyer into our side of the board should be prepared to have a bad day. You MMM a squad of infantry or 2 and surround the flyer. Then you blow it the hell up and nothing can fit outside of it's base and less than 1" away from your troops. Congrats, your 80pts of guardsmen just "killed" hundreds of points of enemy assault units. Works every time.

Well the flyer will be more like 15" away from your front line rather than right in the middle. How far you can reach with those guardsmen?

tneva82 wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Honestly, anyone who attempts to shove a flyer into our side of the board should be prepared to have a bad day. You MMM a squad of infantry or 2 and surround the flyer. Then you blow it the hell up and nothing can fit outside of it's base and less than 1" away from your troops. Congrats, your 80pts of guardsmen just "killed" hundreds of points of enemy assault units. Works every time.

Well the flyer will be more like 15" away from your front line rather than right in the middle. How far you can reach with those guardsmen?

Up to 24" with move move move...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I run catachans as my main detachment but have recently succumbed to the dark/winning side by buying a castellan. I really had trouble with Tau last tournament (without a castellan). I was wondering whether it would benefit me to move the castellan up towards the Tau? Maybe even charge them in T2 or is this my catachan mindset effecting me.

Any thoughts/stratagies for taking on shooty armies would be appreciated.

 Lothar wrote:
Most competitive option for GSC is to take NO Imperial guard units...

GSC is in my opinion best played as full infantry. That way you totally deny your enemy the use of his AT weapons.

Unlike guard, the gsc actually have good AT infantry and can get to the cloxe proximity of the enemy very fast.

Unlike guard, gsc have automatic deep strike and bodyguard rules for all units and several characters who are either great in CC or have great boosting abilities for other units.

So the infantry horde with strong characters seems like the competitive way to go.

I agree that GSC is probably played best devoid of all vehicles. But I love the aesthetics of the Goliaths and the other vehicles so I'll play them.

However, I have to point out that closing the gap fast with the enemy is nothing special for an assault based army. Any such army can be in CC on Turn 2. GSC are actually a bit slow(er) when compared to stuff like Orks Evil Sunz which can reliably charge turn 1, whilst the Cult will have to wait for turn 2 to get the ambushers into combat.

The AT capabilities of the Cult are also almost all focused in melee units and the bit of AT shooting we have are mostly the Mining Lasers which have only 24" and are often out of range.

That's why I want Basilisks, so that I can start working on those enemy tanks from turn 1.

Someone also pointed out the Carnodon Tank from Forgeworld. Love the model so I ordered one.

I'll probably run a Spearhead detachment:

1x Tank Commander
2x Basilisks
1x Carnodon (either all Multilasers for 15 S6 shots to help remove screens or all Volkite to help threaten tanks and elite infantry)

Looking to add some tank commander fire support (battle cannons and plasma) and was looking over doctrines; I know catachan is the go-to for russes with Cadian being another option, but how does Vostroyan sound? 42” range plasma cannons give you some stand-off capability though at the obvious cost of firepower compared to other regiments, wondering what those with more experience think? I’m adding some to a Custodes bike list, my fiancé will be running some as part of pure AM.

I just don't think those 6" make up for the lack of innate re-roll # of shots ability. They order themselves to re-roll to-hit rolls of 1, so can even move 5" and still be fully functional, except for their sponsons.

If they are paired with Custodes, I imagine the enemy will have close range threats demanding AT attention anyway, so your tanks will be fine within their 36" threat range. Just my thoughts on it.

Plasma Cannon Sponsons in general lose a lot of appeal when you consider that Guard's most dangerous enemy, the one you should be tooling your list almost specifically to kill, is Eldar, and with frequent -1 and -2 to hit, overcharging plasma cannons is suicide.

The shorter the range on the gun, the better the +6" is.

Demolisher Cannons benefit a ton from it, since it lets you reach into the enemy's DZ without moving.

Plasma Cannons can already do that, so it's not as big a benefit to them.

Tallarn JSJ tanks are the best tank commanders. Other regiments give a modest firepower buff, Tallarn gives you a massive defensive buff that also helps you get better shots.

 Peregrine wrote:
Tallarn JSJ tanks are the best tank commanders. Other regiments give a modest firepower buff, Tallarn gives you a massive defensive buff that also helps you get better shots.

This. That ability to give the Tau and Eldar players a taste of their own medicine, but with Leman Russe's just cannot be understated. In the hands of a player who knows what they're doing, that flexibility can really shine.

With the ability of many lists out there to outright delete multiple tanks a turn, being able to pick your battles is a big deal.

Has anyone tried (and had any luck) with units of regular Ogryns?

I love my 9 Bullgryns, and now with the point-reduction in CA, I'm very tempted to obtain 9 of their less-armoured cousins as well.

At first glance, 216 pts for 9 Ogryns seems almost like a steal.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Has anyone tried (and had any luck) with units of regular Ogryns?

I love my 9 Bullgryns, and now with the point-reduction in CA, I'm very tempted to obtain 9 of their less-armoured cousins as well.

At first glance, 216 pts for 9 Ogryns seems almost like a steal.

I'm pretty into this concept, but I haven't tried it. I'm also scheming to buy the $25 Nobz box and use the leftover guns and heads from my Bullgryn kits for some half-price Ogryns. So yes, please... anyone doing this?

 MinscS2 wrote:
Has anyone tried (and had any luck) with units of regular Ogryns?

I love my 9 Bullgryns, and now with the point-reduction in CA, I'm very tempted to obtain 9 of their less-armoured cousins as well.

At first glance, 216 pts for 9 Ogryns seems almost like a steal.

So we're talking 216 pts for 27 T5 wounds with a 5+ save. These models then put out essentially 27 s5 shots and then charge in for an additional 40 attacks that hit like heavy bolters. That's before a priest buff or anything obviously.

It definitely looks impressive, especially against enemy chaff or light infantry and vehicles. My one concern is how they're going to survive to get into a fight other than just raw wounds. Lots of weapons do 2-3 damage a hit and I worry you'll see them vaporize pretty quick. In addition stuff like bolters will chip wounds off faster than you think thanks to the awful 5+ save. You can take cover and pyschic barrier to get them up to a 3+ armor save, essentially making them space marines and that may do the trick.

9 might be enough to get them to survive crossing the table but what I'd really like to see is someone go full bone 'ead and bring 27 ogryn and see what happens, maybe even bullgryns too. 27 regular ogryn would be a threat few armies could ignore charging up the table. That much raw S5 attacks can bring down almost anything. You could bring a pure IG army with them and kit it a few ways to take advantage of that too. Melee Catachan mixed with them to just suckerpunch everyone using the ogryn as the first wave. Shock troops supported by a Cadian gunline to keep enemy infantry at Bay. A wall of meat and anti infantry to keep enemy infantry off a tank line while not being quite so vulnerable to bolters. List goes on and on. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a winning strat in there somewhere, question is just which list type and regiments benefit most from that kind of unit.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Tallarn JSJ tanks are the best tank commanders. Other regiments give a modest firepower buff, Tallarn gives you a massive defensive buff that also helps you get better shots.

This. That ability to give the Tau and Eldar players a taste of their own medicine, but with Leman Russe's just cannot be understated. In the hands of a player who knows what they're doing, that flexibility can really shine.

With the ability of many lists out there to outright delete multiple tanks a turn, being able to pick your battles is a big deal.

Can you expand upon this. How is move shoot move that big of an advantage. I know if Flames of War it was a massive buff to the germans, but that is 15mm scale, with main guns at 24" range, and the ability to hide outside LoS by moving into woods, behind buildings, gaining cover more easily etc...

I am tempted to try this but feel the lack of cover for tanks, being as they need 50% obscure and in area tearrain, the massive range of most guns, especially anti tank being 48" essentially the entire table damn near, and the sheer amount of FP stuff can bring seems like it would be hard to utilize.

Don't get me wrong, I see the potential, but how exactly are you implementing this? What tricks, movement, combo, etc... are you using to make this work.

 Dynas wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Tallarn JSJ tanks are the best tank commanders. Other regiments give a modest firepower buff, Tallarn gives you a massive defensive buff that also helps you get better shots.

This. That ability to give the Tau and Eldar players a taste of their own medicine, but with Leman Russe's just cannot be understated. In the hands of a player who knows what they're doing, that flexibility can really shine.

With the ability of many lists out there to outright delete multiple tanks a turn, being able to pick your battles is a big deal.

Can you expand upon this. How is move shoot move that big of an advantage. I know if Flames of War it was a massive buff to the germans, but that is 15mm scale, with main guns at 24" range, and the ability to hide outside LoS by moving into woods, behind buildings, gaining cover more easily etc...

I am tempted to try this but feel the lack of cover for tanks, being as they need 50% obscure and in area tearrain, the massive range of most guns, especially anti tank being 48" essentially the entire table damn near, and the sheer amount of FP stuff can bring seems like it would be hard to utilize.

Don't get me wrong, I see the potential, but how exactly are you implementing this? What tricks, movement, combo, etc... are you using to make this work.

It's really only useful in ITC rules, where the first level of a ruin is considered blocking line of sight. So it doesn't matter if you can see me through a window in a building, the building blocks line of sight to my tank.

Cadian tank commanders also get significantly more than a "modest" firepower buff, being able to re-roll both dice for number of shots, and re-rolling 1's to hit (if stationary). The Tallarn are definitely more survivable, but I've re-rolled 4-5 shots into twice that enough that I really appreciate the Cadian tanks.

If you play with "Nova Ls" the tallarn tanks would be pretty good as well.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
Has anyone tried (and had any luck) with units of regular Ogryns?

I love my 9 Bullgryns, and now with the point-reduction in CA, I'm very tempted to obtain 9 of their less-armoured cousins as well.

At first glance, 216 pts for 9 Ogryns seems almost like a steal.

So we're talking 216 pts for 27 T5 wounds with a 5+ save.

My one concern is how they're going to survive to get into a fight other than just raw wounds. Lots of weapons do 2-3 damage a hit...

My Armigers are drooling at the thought of a unit of 3W models that have a 5+ armor save.

 Horst wrote:
It's really only useful in ITC rules, where the first level of a ruin is considered blocking line of sight.

I'm assuming you're using either the rule that terrain blocks LOS even if the model has small gaps or terrain that is solid walls because the 8th edition terrain rules are idiotic and unplayable otherwise. At this point this is an automatic assumption comparable to assuming that both players are building lists to the same point limit even though it isn't a strictly necessary part of matched play.

Cadian tank commanders also get significantly more than a "modest" firepower buff, being able to re-roll both dice for number of shots, and re-rolling 1's to hit (if stationary).

No, it's absolutely a modest firepower buff. All command tanks have the ability to re-roll 1s if you're stationary (and if you're moving, obviously), so all you're getting is the ability to re-roll the dice for number of shots. And that's not a huge increase in firepower. Even a true "roll twice, pick the highest" buff would only be a ~30% increase in firepower and you don't have that. You have to take the re-roll result even if it's worse than the original roll, which means you're only safely re-rolling 1s and almost never re-rolling a 3 or better. It's not nothing, but even using the Tallarn order as a purely offensive tool to line up better shots is probably going to give you about that much increase in firepower. And when you need to JSJ for defense and give yourself more shots over the full length of the game by staying alive, well, there's no comparison.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Looking to add some tank commander fire support (battle cannons and plasma) and was looking over doctrines; I know catachan is the go-to for russes with Cadian being another option, but how does Vostroyan sound? 42” range plasma cannons give you some stand-off capability though at the obvious cost of firepower compared to other regiments, wondering what those with more experience think? I’m adding some to a Custodes bike list, my fiancé will be running some as part of pure AM.

30" tank commander punishers are pretty good and the +1 to hit strat for (I think) only 1CP is pretty clutch. The reroll 1s order means it hits like pask. Cadian and catachan are better for the D6 (2D6)shot turrets. I would argue that if you're taking the vigalus artillery detachment then catachan basilisks would beat out battlecannon tanks.

It depends what else your army has. If the custodes bikes are armed with the salvo launchers then you have a pretty reasonable tank hunter (and good anti air) so the punishers ability to take on chaff compliments them well. However, if you're running hurricane launcher then you have chaff covered and the battlecannon/plasma Russes would be better (or as I said a basilisk).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I play in the LWG ITC tournament this weekend with a Catachan vigalus armtillery brigade containing 1 punisher tank commander 2 basilisks and a Knight super heavy detachment containing a Castellan(don't hate the player, hate the (META) game).

I finished 4-1 8th out of 58. Awesome tournament and well organised. The only game I lost was against a nurgle horde (3 x 30 plague bearers) as well as enough summoning points to bring another 2 x 30 tzeench deamons.

I'm going to tailor my list a bit more to be able to take on hordes so a Wyvern might be in order but the big issue was my inability to take out the special characters

I was wondering what peoples thoughts on Mordians were. I'm looking at creating a plasma wielding speacial weapons/command assassination squad supported by a platoon commander with the dagger of tusakh. The Mordian order allows rapid fire weapons to target characters. The special weapon plasma squad and platoon commander comes to 65 points and has 3 meat shields built in. The command squad version does have the BS3 but comes in at 88 points.

The other thing that appeals about the Mordian is their Heavy Weapon Mortar squads. The order that allow the weapon the fire again on a 6 is crazy with a 3 mortar squad. I run Yarrick to allow reroll 1s already and If you gave the reroll 1s to wound order you've the potential for a sick combo.

Finally the vehicle ability to overwatch on 5s if within 6" traditionally results in one unit taking a charge and then shock horror the 2nd vehicle within 6" getting tagged in cc. However, I find myself taking sentinels to fill out brigades anyway. Normally they're literally just a filler but if I kept them behind my punisher tank commander or (in future) Wyvern then this issue is removed and I end up getting a vehicle that, with the strat, overwatches on 4+.

Thoughts?

Mordians aren't as strong as some of the other Regiments, but they have some awesome tricks up their sleeves. They can be built to have very little issues with morale, their overwatch bonus can really lay some surprise on charging Orks or other light armored stuff.

It's their order and stratagem where they shine though. Plasma vet squads shooting characters, volley firing mortar squads, and infantry only running away half the time if near the Warlord are all pretty great.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Horst wrote:
It's really only useful in ITC rules, where the first level of a ruin is considered blocking line of sight.

I'm assuming you're using either the rule that terrain blocks LOS even if the model has small gaps or terrain that is solid walls because the 8th edition terrain rules are idiotic and unplayable otherwise. At this point this is an automatic assumption comparable to assuming that both players are building lists to the same point limit even though it isn't a strictly necessary part of matched play.

Cadian tank commanders also get significantly more than a "modest" firepower buff, being able to re-roll both dice for number of shots, and re-rolling 1's to hit (if stationary).

No, it's absolutely a modest firepower buff. All command tanks have the ability to re-roll 1s if you're stationary (and if you're moving, obviously), so all you're getting is the ability to re-roll the dice for number of shots. And that's not a huge increase in firepower. Even a true "roll twice, pick the highest" buff would only be a ~30% increase in firepower and you don't have that. You have to take the re-roll result even if it's worse than the original roll, which means you're only safely re-rolling 1s and almost never re-rolling a 3 or better. It's not nothing, but even using the Tallarn order as a purely offensive tool to line up better shots is probably going to give you about that much increase in firepower. And when you need to JSJ for defense and give yourself more shots over the full length of the game by staying alive, well, there's no comparison.

The real benefit of the re-roll on D6 though for Cadia is if you roll a statistically unlikely number for your first roll. It's happened in quite a few games... I roll a 1 and a 2 for my number of shots, re-roll both, and get a 7 or 8. It doesn't increase the average much, but it almost eliminates complete whiffs. Yes, it leaves my tank commanders exposed after firing, while a Tallarn commander can fall back to cover, but I'd still rather have that much stronger first punch. This may just be for my list though, a big component of it is a pair of Knights Gallant that get into the enemy's face. They usually draw a lot of fire, leaving the Tank Commanders relatively unmolested. Though in one or two games the Tank Commanders have been focused and killed, but then the Gallants just get in there and start smashing their way through the enemy.

I can see the value in the Tallarn ones, I think I just prefer Cadian rules.

Ya I think they could be fairly strong if played correctly. Currently I run Yarrick as well so thats reroll all 1s to hit (including overwatch) or ALL misses against orks.

I ran catachans in the tournament and they did pretty good but I'm always looking to tweak. I ran armigers with my knight to get the Super heavy detachment 3CP but they didn't shine.

I can definitely see the castellan Strats being nerf in the FAQ particularly the Raven, reroll 1s strat. As a result I'm half thinking of taking Bobby G in a separate super heavy auxiliary detachment. His reroll 1s for all Imperium would mean he could take the place of yarrick. A super heavy auxiliary detachment counts as being battle forged right? I know he wouldn't get the chapter rules but I think he'd still get the +3CP if he's made the warlord. The +3cp is a necessity with the rate at which I plow through Strats. Especially since I'll be spending 5 before the deployment even starts (1 for vigalus, 1 for Knights warlord trait, 1 for knight relic, 1 for AM relic (dagger so I can ambush my vets) and finally 1 +85CP for my assassin of choice.

Mmmm delicious soup...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CaptainO wrote:
Ya I think they could be fairly strong if played correctly. Currently I run Yarrick as well so thats reroll all 1s to hit (including overwatch) or ALL misses against orks.

I ran catachans in the tournament and they did pretty good but I'm always looking to tweak. I ran armigers with my knight to get the Super heavy detachment 3CP but they didn't shine.

I can definitely see the castellan Strats being nerf in the FAQ particularly the Raven, reroll 1s strat. As a result I'm half thinking of taking Bobby G in a separate super heavy auxiliary detachment. His reroll 1s for all Imperium would mean he could take the place of yarrick. A super heavy auxiliary detachment counts as being battle forged right? I know he wouldn't get the chapter rules but I think he'd still get the +3CP if he's made the warlord. The +3cp is a necessity with the rate at which I plow through Strats. Especially since I'll be spending 5 before the deployment even starts (1 for vigalus, 1 for Knights warlord trait, 1 for knight relic, 1 for AM relic (dagger so I can ambush my vets) and finally 1 +85CP for my assassin of choice.

Mmmm delicious soup...

Ref Mordians

CaptainO wrote:
The other thing that appeals about the Mordian is their Heavy Weapon Mortar squads. The order that allow the weapon the fire again on a 6 is crazy with a 3 mortar squad. I

Err, what? Either you are very confused here or I am.