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 Peregrine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Don’t forget, also, that Taurox Primes benefit from the Stormtroopers doctrine as well.

Only if they don't move, which kind of hinders their use as transports.

What? You get into half range and get extra shots on six. That can be made better when you don’t move on a turn and hit on three, but you still get the doctrine.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Don’t forget, also, that Taurox Primes benefit from the Stormtroopers doctrine as well.

Only if they don't move, which kind of hinders their use as transports.

What? You get into half range and get extra shots on six. That can be made better when you don’t move on a turn and hit on three, but you still get the doctrine.

You can't roll a 6+ with -1 to hit. Heavy weapons get a -1 to hit when you move.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Don’t forget, also, that Taurox Primes benefit from the Stormtroopers doctrine as well.

Only if they don't move, which kind of hinders their use as transports.

What? You get into half range and get extra shots on six. That can be made better when you don’t move on a turn and hit on three, but you still get the doctrine.

6+. You move, you can't roll any 6's since they become 5's.

RogueApiary wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Don’t forget, also, that Taurox Primes benefit from the Stormtroopers doctrine as well.

Only if they don't move, which kind of hinders their use as transports.

What? You get into half range and get extra shots on six. That can be made better when you don’t move on a turn and hit on three, but you still get the doctrine.

6+. You move, you can't roll any 6's since they become 5's.

Oh, well yes. I wasn’t thinking about that, but that doesn’t stop the Storm Bolter from firing.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Oh, well yes. I wasn’t thinking about that, but that doesn’t stop the Storm Bolter from firing.

If you're having to resort to talking about how great a storm bolter is then it's a concession that your argument has failed.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Oh, well yes. I wasn’t thinking about that, but that doesn’t stop the Storm Bolter from firing.

If you're having to resort to talking about how great a storm bolter is then it's a concession that your argument has failed.

My previous position is that they are a good all-rounder. The 6+ bit slipped my mind for a moment. I’ve been looking too much at Killteam Elites, as they’ve changed it to an unmodified 6. They are gun boats and transports. They can benefit from the Stormtroopers doctrine, which is what I originally said. They are advertised and described as being adept at plugging gaps in the front lines. They get there and the. Are able to open up fire with Stormtroopers. It is still a good boost.

An interesting side bit, have you guys noticed GW’s thing for gunboat transports? First the Taurox/Taurox Prime, then Repulsor with its new variant, and now the Skitarii Transport/tank.

 Apple Peel wrote:
They can benefit from the Stormtroopers doctrine, which is what I originally said.

In the real world they can't. The reason you're paying points for a transport instead of taking a more efficient pure gun platform is so that you can transport something. If you aren't putting a squad in there and moving the transport to deliver it then you're throwing away points on an inefficient tank. And if you are using the Taurox as a transport you won't be able to roll 6s to use the doctrine. It's, at best, an incredibly situational buff that will rarely apply and is not worth considering in evaluating the unit.

(Now, LRBTs/Baneblades/Basilisks/etc can certainly make use of the "storm troopers" doctrine because they either ignore the -1 penalty for moving or have weapons with long enough range that they can park in the back corner and still be within half range. But that's an entirely separate question.)

An interesting side bit, have you guys noticed GW’s thing for gunboat transports? First the Taurox/Taurox Prime, then Repulsor with its new variant, and now the Skitarii Transport/tank.

Yes, GW is making more Razorback equivalents. It's not a new thing.

What is the opinion of the (FW) Destroyer Tank Hunter? I have the model lying around but don't know if it is viable. Does is have Grinding advance or not?

Last weekend I played a tourney with my guard for the first time in a long time. Two units which you don't see all that often performed quite well:

Cyclops Demolition Vehicle: I took two and had quite some fun times with it. In the first game the guard/DE opponent played quite defensively. Trough some luck I destroyed a Venom after one of the cyclops was charged but not destroyed (it can fall back and still explode in the shooting fase). The other one completely wiffed against a Hellhound. The second game they performed better. Hidiing behind cover before taking out an undamaged warglaive and taking 8 wounds of a knight. That opponent had heard of the cyclops but didn't know they were this terrible. The third game was their moment of glory however. A horde of Talos pain engines was racing through the center and there my hidden cyclops went for. Scoring 23 wounds in total on the three units and making sure the 2nd cyclops was hunted down with a vengeance.

Lssons learned: Even though their points have increased from 40 to 60 the cyclops are still worth it. Fielding 1 is probably better then two since your opponent will hunt down the second one with a vengeance after he has seen what it does. It is easy to conceal behind terrain or a Hellhound and putting it in terrain you'll get a 2+ save making it sturdy enough. The blast from this thing can wreck a lot especially in MSU. Then there is a 3+ chance of it exploding when destroyed so it can be used as a suicide vehicle as well. Yes, it will see more table time for sure.

Death Rider Squadron: I also took a min squadron of Death Riders (commander, command squad and 3 x 5 riders, no commisar). They worked unexpectedly well. In all three games the opponent spend some considerable effort to protect the flanks from the outflanking squads. Of course this made it difficult to get at their vulnerable units. But since the squadron is quite cheap it was worth it already to have 1 or 2 squads outflank. Death riders pack quite a punch when charging. Taking out units like a Hellhound and primaris marines with ease. They are strudy as well.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
What is the opinion of the (FW) Destroyer Tank Hunter? I have the model lying around but don't know if it is viable. Does is have Grinding advance or not?

It doesn't have grinding advance and is therefore trash.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
What is the opinion of the (FW) Destroyer Tank Hunter? I have the model lying around but don't know if it is viable. Does is have Grinding advance or not?

It doesn't have grinding advance and is therefore trash.

That's too bad since it is such a nice model.

Alright, first thing, Taurox primes are actually pretty nice looking, opinion but the right paint job does a wonder to make them look great. The typical online pics don't do them any justice.

Second, they were pretty OP way back in the beginning of the edition, they are a touch too expensive right now but I actually never really looked at them as transports so much as IFVs.

That to mean their firepower is what you take them for over primary choice to get troops around. It's a strange bird to be sure, suffers a bit from the Landraider problem, having enough guns you may want to just shoot them but higher cost and also a transport role to push cross purposes.

Honestly at this point their best use is simply the fact they are good for a pure MT list, still usable just aren't amazing. I think by anyones metric taking guard tanks in their own detachment is a better fire support option but Primes can still put out some workable fire power. Just don't look at them as standard transports. I mean you don't exactly take Razorbacks for marines and worry of their capacity, they are cheap fire support. Which I think primes lack and need some tick backs in cost, or maybe a rule so they can suffer less from moving and shooting to make them an interesting and viable choice.

In not cut throat games I think they are perfectly viable as is, blind hatred over their looks aside.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Adding another bit of side note. I don't like many transports this edition. I dislike the transport tax of it coming into the vehicles cost while transports are kind meh for viability.

IFVs get over costed, and we don't see a lot of bare bones just transports made anymore. It's like GW have a hard core focus towards transport gunships but want to under skill or cost them to be an awful transport and a middle of the road gun platform.

I wish this design choice would change but it seems like with the coming transports it just continues down this road.

Leaving most medium type transports like that to be midfield pillboxes with little transport uses, especially with transports only offloading before movement which sucks.Gives me flashbacks a bit to 4th edition when all you did with rhinos was run up, turn sideways offload troops behind the steel wall then follow up field for a turn or two. Dull.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
What is the opinion of the (FW) Destroyer Tank Hunter? I have the model lying around but don't know if it is viable. Does is have Grinding advance or not?

Last weekend I played a tourney with my guard for the first time in a long time. Two units which you don't see all that often performed quite well:

Cyclops Demolition Vehicle: I took two and had quite some fun times with it. In the first game the guard/DE opponent played quite defensively. Trough some luck I destroyed a Venom after one of the cyclops was charged but not destroyed (it can fall back and still explode in the shooting fase). The other one completely wiffed against a Hellhound. The second game they performed better. Hidiing behind cover before taking out an undamaged warglaive and taking 8 wounds of a knight. That opponent had heard of the cyclops but didn't know they were this terrible. The third game was their moment of glory however. A horde of Talos pain engines was racing through the center and there my hidden cyclops went for. Scoring 23 wounds in total on the three units and making sure the 2nd cyclops was hunted down with a vengeance.

Lssons learned: Even though their points have increased from 40 to 60 the cyclops are still worth it. Fielding 1 is probably better then two since your opponent will hunt down the second one with a vengeance after he has seen what it does. It is easy to conceal behind terrain or a Hellhound and putting it in terrain you'll get a 2+ save making it sturdy enough. The blast from this thing can wreck a lot especially in MSU. Then there is a 3+ chance of it exploding when destroyed so it can be used as a suicide vehicle as well. Yes, it will see more table time for sure.

Death Rider Squadron: I also took a min squadron of Death Riders (commander, command squad and 3 x 5 riders, no commisar). They worked unexpectedly well. In all three games the opponent spend some considerable effort to protect the flanks from the outflanking squads. Of course this made it difficult to get at their vulnerable units. But since the squadron is quite cheap it was worth it already to have 1 or 2 squads outflank. Death riders pack quite a punch when charging. Taking out units like a Hellhound and primaris marines with ease. They are strudy as well.

Cyclops, well played, are tons of fun (and wounds). I remember I was playing a city fight against DG and several DG units were squeezed into a street after assaulting a unit, and then came my cyclop, doing something like 17 wounds and killing so many guys !
Hiding them with vehicles such as hellhounds must be very effective and a great opportunity to do two explosions haha

One of the coolest uses for the Cyclops I think is friendly firing "trapped" units. Very good players will assault in such a way that only 1-2 Guardsmen die, and they consolidate and "trap" the other Guardsmen in there so that you cannot fall back, so you're stuck in hand to hand and cannot shoot the enemy. So they kill you during your assault phase, then on their turn are free to continue the assault. Not so with the Cyclops! You move it up, blow up your own infantry, then resume firing. Excellent!

I want to try running bullgryns in my list to see how they play. I own 6 of the buggers. Do most people let them walk about or do you put the in a transport? I looked at both the valks and chimeras and they would, at best, let me run 4. I was going to have a astropath and ministorum priest provide some buffs so now I'm down to 3 plus characters in either transport.

And while I'm at it did I hear grav-chute insertion is out? I never really used it since I haven't played guard since early 6th and for the most part valks are junk outside of being a fast transport.

You know I have an armored company, but it's not really suited for 8th, especially since the index is gakky. So I've finally come to the conclusion to buy more infantry and I did this first draft list using Cadia infantry, Tallarn tanks and an assassin.
I'll finally have somehting to screen my tanks !


I could put the heavy weapons into the infantry squad, and give my infantry special weapons too. I thought about flamers for avoid charges, but I would loose some lasguns shots, so what do you think guys ?
Obviously it's not a tournament list, as you can see with commissars and vet in chimeras, but commissars are so cheap anyway and my FW vets wanna see fight ! In addition, a few heavy bolters and melta shots are never bad, and it gives me a bit of mobility, at least.

I've been working on developing meat shield tactics for guard because tanks tend to make up my firebase. I've found two units of conscripts work best - in two waves 4 inches apart. A 10 man infantry squad will just get deleted and then you've got a big hole in your lines and then they assault and take one or two of your other infantry squads as hostages. And you can't spread your infantry squad out more than one base width or someone will move through them on a decent assault and take them hostage. With 25 conscripts you've got a solid 40 inch line of defense to pick off the end from when they die which probably wraps way past where you need them anyway. I also auto include Pask and usually a tank commander with Punisher Gattling Cannons for dealing with unwanted guests who try to chew through the conscripts.

 necron99 wrote:
I've been working on developing meat shield tactics for guard because tanks tend to make up my firebase. I've found two units of conscripts work best - in two waves 4 inches apart. A 10 man infantry squad will just get deleted and then you've got a big hole in your lines and then they assault and take one or two of your other infantry squads as hostages. And you can't spread your infantry squad out more than one base width or someone will move through them on a decent assault and take them hostage. With 25 conscripts you've got a solid 40 inch line of defense to pick off the end from when they die which probably wraps way past where you need them anyway. I also auto include Pask and usually a tank commander with Punisher Gattling Cannons for dealing with unwanted guests who try to chew through the conscripts.

Do you go for a valhallan detachment for your conscripts to make them more durable against morale tests? Or do you just slot it in with your Cadian detachment with Pask?

I leave 'em with the cadians and let the primaris psyker cast psychic barrier on the forward unit to get them to a 4+ save. Most of the time I have plans for the other two detachments which tonight will be BA smash captains and DW storm bolter veterans

Another option is to spend a cp though and merge your infantry squads. That would be really good I think as they auto accept orders and have a far better leadership.

So I was thinking about doing a double screening:

30 guards as the first screen, then 4" away (in order to avoid the 3" consolidation) the second screen of 30 guards and then all the vehicles and characters.

Characters will be in range of both screen for order / LD / etc if they are immediately next to the second screen.

And between the two screens, the two cyclops. This way if my first screen is locked in assault, I can kill the survivors myself by detonating them and avoid getting trap by my own screen: there is no way to hide from my shooting phase.

I'll probably put the veterans in ambush, drop one chimera and add two meltaguns (one is each vet squad). This way they will be able to ambuhs, advance and fire without malus and one shot in average an exocrine, a 12 wounds tank / monster etc...
With the stormtroopers and the assassin, I guess I will have some mobility this way.

Do the double screen seem workable for you ?

That's what I've started doing - especially with the rise of genestealer cults. I don't know if I'd bother with orders for the conscripts though since it only happens on a 4+. Maybe if you want to leave a platoon commander up front with them I guess. Two cyclops is interesting... they're not cheap anymore though. Usually I pick off the dead from an end that will not likely be able to be held hostage. Not that you still can't be locked but that's usually how it happens to me.

How are Leman Russ tanks doing in competitive events these days? I ask because I'm sort of thinking about getting that new Apocalypse bundle that has 3 of them in it (as long as one of them is the Demolisher/Punisher/Executioner version, that is). I'm relatively new to Astra Militarum, mainly adding it to support my Imperial Knights, but I wouldn't mind having enough to run a full AM army.

From the looks ut will be 2 battlecannon/eradicator/ac LR and 1 demolisher/punisher/executioner.

They are doing great, as TCs. For the points, there is no reason not to make them TCs, you get +1 bs and can issue reroll 1s or rerolls number of shots everyturn. Its incredibly strong. They just get targeted fast

Yea, Tank Commanders are pretty popular in competitive play now, many imperial lists have them.

The only variants that see play are the Battle Cannon and the Punisher Cannon though, the others are either just bad or too situational to be useful.

The executioner definitely also sees play. Particularly in cadian/vostroyan detachments where you can get +1 to hit via stratagems. Flat 2 damage is much better than D3, it has better AP and costs less. It's certainly got it's niche!

Unfortunately the Executioner has overheat, so it's suicide to use against Eldar Flyers or Plaguebearers, who have -2 to hit frequently. Taking mortal wounds on a 1 or 2 is brutal.

Well it's worse against them but better against armoured targets and elite infantry. Didn't say it was better than the battle cannon, just usable.

Okay, another question: can a Tank Commander issue an order to himself, or to another Tank Commander? I don't have my codex handy right now, so forgive me if that's a dumb question.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Okay, another question: can a Tank Commander issue an order to himself, or to another Tank Commander? I don't have my codex handy right now, so forgive me if that's a dumb question.

Yes.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Okay, another question: can a Tank Commander issue an order to himself, or to another Tank Commander? I don't have my codex handy right now, so forgive me if that's a dumb question.

Yes, they can do both.

I've run a conqueror in my list and found them to be decent enough. Especially as a wing man to pask who can do 2 orders. I usually run pask with the gatling cannon so his turret is only 24" which is the sweet spot for the conqueror reroll hit ability. I found a 3d printable turret for the conqueror too which is handy.