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I did some quick math in Excel, comparing five to ten man squads (all with max plasma/plasma pistol), with and without take aim (adding half the cost of a prime), the results of cheapest points per wound are, from worst to first:

five Man under Take aim (17.6 pph)
Ten Man plain (17 pph)
Ten Men under Take Aim (16.8)
Five Man plain (15.9 pph)

This means over a 500 detachment, five man squads without orders will score about two more hits per turn than a ten man squad. With order, the ten man squads will score 1.5 more hits.

The above assumes stormtrooper doctrine, and does not take into account the value of the hot shots (marginal) or the value of a prime beyond orders (minimal but not nothing).

It looks like the play is to run minimum if you aren't running primes and max if you are. the question of running primes isn't a math question, but depends on what else you can take to fill the HQ slots you need.

EDIT: I also forgot that primes unlock Command squads, which are eye wateringly efficient at 13.2 pph under orders and 12.8pph plain.

Depending on how big you wanted to get, the most efficient MT battalion is probably two primes, two command squads, two max squads, and a min squad, all with full plasma. that's 540 points for 44 plasma shots on the drop, yeiling 39 plasma shots and 34.7 hits.

Been thinking about Scions and their durability in the new Marine Meta. Based on the math I've been looking at (comparing regular and Primaris Marines shooting at different squad sizes, reroll buff, and Tactical Doctrine), it looks like if you want to drop them somewhere to hold an objective, you'll want to take full 10 man squads for survivability. The 5 man squad, even in cover, just gets absolutely shredded in most cases. (The 10 man squad though also gets shredded if more than 5 Marines look at them during Tactical Doctrine).

5 man squads might be good for a quick drop to kill somethings.

Math on the Mortars is also interesting. No orders, 3 squads all Mortars does 2 unsaved wounds on MEQ, and 7 on GEQ (assuming 3+ and 5+ saves respectively), versus the 1 and 4 unsaved wounds, respectively, from 3 Infantry squads at range. However, when comparing 3 Cadian Mortar Squads with Take Aim order to 3 Infantry squads at range doing FRFSRF, they do the same unsaved wounds, 3 vs MEQ and 10 vs GEQ (same assumptions on saves respectively).

So, at that point, the Mortar squads are paying 5 extra points a piece for range and firing outside of LoS.

I know all of you have said as such, but the Mortar squads only suffer now thanks to the new Marine Meta. The only non-marine armies I've seen in my local meta in recent weeks have been Tau, Nids, and Guard. Mortars might help against Nids and Guard, but I've mainly seen Marines of one flavor or another, so they may be in the shelf for awhile.

I've always been underwhelmed by mortars, but I've been the only guard player in my area for a long time. They're just incredibly weak against marines that the points are better spent on another basilisk in my opinion. If you faced a lot of hordes they probably still have some use but that's about it. Yes that means you're not getting a cheap brigade but I honestly think 2-3 batallions is better anyways.

I've always felt the cheap brigade was a trap, and this kind of seals it. Yeah we have cheap filler units but by the time you have them all filled in you're losing almost 200pts just to get a couple of command points over a double batallion with units you wanted to spam anyways. Don't get me wrong, I'll still take batallions, but when I do I take units that are useful like Hellhounds and basilisks. Only point to a brigade these days is to maximize use out of vigilus detachments by putting all your infantry in one detachment for the infantry one and sticking stuff like the tanks or artillery in their own section.

They certainly weren't bad firepower for 33pts, but I was already leaving them out in lieu of other things. Maybe a 1-2pt nerf might have been acceptable, but 5pts per model? Won't be using them at all!

When brigades were triple the CP of battalions, paying the tax made sense. They still make sense if you aren't running pure guard.

The real appeal to brigades is that for some armies (catachan armor heavy in particular) there isn't a tax. Hellhounds and LRBTs are both great choices with Catachan doctrine. Tallarn can kind of slide in with truly mobile sentinels, but they remain mostly a tax.

 Polonius wrote:
When brigades were triple the CP of battalions, paying the tax made sense. They still make sense if you aren't running pure guard.

Was there a change for CP somewhere that I missed? How were they triple the CP? Are Brigades more then +3CP now or are Battalions less then +9CP?

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
When brigades were triple the CP of battalions, paying the tax made sense. They still make sense if you aren't running pure guard.

Was there a change for CP somewhere that I missed? How were they triple the CP? Are Brigades more then +3CP now or are Battalions less then +9CP?

Battalion is +5cp, brigade is +12cp.

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
When brigades were triple the CP of battalions, paying the tax made sense. They still make sense if you aren't running pure guard.

Was there a change for CP somewhere that I missed? How were they triple the CP? Are Brigades more then +3CP now or are Battalions less then +9CP?

In early 8th, Battalions were 3CP and Brigades 9CP. They updated it in an FAQ to +5 and +12.

 Polonius wrote:

 Salted Diamond wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
When brigades were triple the CP of battalions, paying the tax made sense. They still make sense if you aren't running pure guard.

Was there a change for CP somewhere that I missed? How were they triple the CP? Are Brigades more then +3CP now or are Battalions less then +9CP?

In early 8th, Battalions were 3CP and Brigades 9CP. They updated it in an FAQ to +5 and +12.

*quickly goes to check FAQ* How the hell did I miss that?

 Smirrors wrote:
The punisher matters less but the mortars and wyvern is an annoyance as outside of marines, they do the emperors work against many other armies. I still think you need them so have to find points elsewhere.

I feel as these changes were relevant 6 months ago but hurts us now as they are all less effective in the marine meta and are more expensive..

This.

Wyvern and mortar nerf now is erroneous. I think someone at GW messed up Ogryns vs Bullgryns, bit im not complaining. Having publisher go up also sucks as I had all these units in my army. Not sure if scion drop is gonna be worth it as they will still be dying in droves, though we could see the return of plasma. Astorpaths, good i guess, always good to have another spell, but only need +1 armor and -1 save spells, so more than 2 is really not needed IMO.

The base leman going down is interesting. Im gonna see about making a Tallarn tank company that takes advantage of the shoot and scoot.

The baneblade chassis that no one uses went down, but I don't think we will see our Super Heavies in a competitive list environment be effective without invuls. They are too big to hide still.
I think it will be interesting to see if Brandon Grant changes armies or sticks with guard.

I feel like we got pretty lucky as far as points changes go. The few units that went up I never really used much and we had a ton get discounts. Lascannons on tank commanders is a lot more tempting when it's only a 7pt upgrade now for example. Regular Russe's are the cheapest I've ever seen them. If I'm doing the math right a leman Russ Demolisher with heavy Bolter is 135pts, that's pretty good. You can afford to keep tank commanders as longer ranged support variants and just shove demolishers up the table. I wouldn't take anything crazy but one or two is a hell of a distraction, especially with a trait like Catachan. You cannot let those tanks live, they just delete things.

Astropaths are probably autoinclude now. Yeah they can't all cast barrier and shroud but screw it, it's a 15pt chance at a deny, easy brigade filler, and you can just fish for an offensive spell like gaze of the emperor or smite. Start off with that power, and if it fails, who cares it's 15 points. If it goes off once over a game it pays for itself, you can bait a deny they'd prefer on barrier/shroud, and this is ignoring that they let your army just ignore cover on things like eliminators. That's ridiculous utility for a 15 pt character.

Finally, that's a serious discount on Stormtroopers. At 7ppm on basic squads that's some serious utility. Yeah their weapons suck on the drop but it's 35 pts to drop a troop unit onto an objective and fill a brigade. That's not bad at all. Plasma is still cheaper than melta for reasons I'll never understand so they still have the ability to drop in and kill things too. I think they're going to pop up a lot in CP soup batallions. The ability to jsut drop them where needed is pretty clutch. I may you around with them again and see how they do in a pure guard army.

Our new Forgeworld points seem to be a mixed bag (below just the changed point-cost of models I use a lot or intend to use):

- Artemia Pattern Hellhound: 108 -> 101 (nice)
- Death Riders: 14 -> 15 p/m (Hmmm, I got 30 of these lads)
- Vulture with punisher: 160 -> 185 (Ouch, that hurts!!!, just got one of those)
- Thunderbolt: chassis from 100 -> 125 (darn, I just bought two)
- Lightning strike fighter: chassis from 95 -> 125 (darn again, just started painting up my second Lightning!)
- Vendettas don't profit from the point reduction of lascannon since their twin lascannon still costs 40 points (can't I swap those for two single please?!?)

Seems like my new army (air heavy scions) is hurt a lot, even before I have started building it.

It probably balances out the -2ppm cost of Scions, in your case.

 Bobthehero wrote:
It probably balances out the -2ppm cost of Scions, in your case.

Two thunderbolts and two vultures gonna cost an additional 100 points in total. That's not compensated by the 40+10 (scions+primes) in the Valks. And it is not that these flyers were all that effective to start with.
I will build the army anyways, since i just need those 'Apocalyps now' moments, but don't expect to take it to a tourney.

I'm not going to be able to look at Chapter Approved for a couple of weeks due to a lot of holiday stuff going on. Did the Leman Russ Annihilator get a point decrease as well, or was that just the standard Leman Russ?

Arcanis161 wrote:
I'm not going to be able to look at Chapter Approved for a couple of weeks due to a lot of holiday stuff going on. Did the Leman Russ Annihilator get a point decrease as well, or was that just the standard Leman Russ?

Nope, still 170 with hull bolter.

Oh Thunderbolt went up? Those are odd changes.

Not really.

tneva82 wrote:
Not really.

Why not?

What's the common factor with the point increases? That's major hint.

FW

I thought it was Flyers

Don't forget, people upset about the forgeworld flyers, that the Hellstrike Missile went from 30 pts back to 12, making a Marauder Destroyer go from a absolutely bonkers 540 points to a more well-priced (though still overcosted) 350ish

tneva82 wrote:
What's the common factor with the point increases? That's major hint.

Yeah, but what is the point in increasing the cost of flyers; it is not that they got so much table- time?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget, people upset about the forgeworld flyers, that the Hellstrike Missile went from 30 pts back to 12, making a Marauder Destroyer go from a absolutely bonkers 540 points to a more well-priced (though still overcosted) 350ish

Interesting, I didn't spot that. Thus the base cost is increased but a fully kitted Thunderbolt or Lightning will cost less. Hmmm, don't like to invest all those points in one unit but it might be better now to do so.

The Hunter- killer missles also got a decrease. I like those on a Vulture.

I'm looking at CA2018 next to CA2019 and the Thunderbolt and Lightning are identical in points. Other than the missile change, they seem identical. What am I missing?

Thunderbolts and Lightning seem pretty much the same, but they’re still very very frightening.

 Badablack wrote:
Thunderbolts and Lightning seem pretty much the same, but they’re still very very frightening.

Exalted

Hey guys.

I am looking to play a mainly tank (LRBT variants) army but I have played little of this edition and certainly no AM. Is is viable or even sensible to try? I have done a little research and i like the demolishers and executioners, perhaps in tallarn or vostroyan, however I'm not sure hat is a reasonable amount to have in and what the pitfalls of going tank heavy might be.

Any experienced treadheads want to give me a few pointers?

It's critical to decide how you are going to screen your tanks. If something gets into melee you lose so much fire power. So you either need an infantry screen or small outrider vehicles like sentinels/hellhounds to keep your big guns firing.

 Silent_King wrote:
Hey guys.

I am looking to play a mainly tank (LRBT variants) army but I have played little of this edition and certainly no AM. Is is viable or even sensible to try? I have done a little research and i like the demolishers and executioners, perhaps in tallarn or vostroyan, however I'm not sure hat is a reasonable amount to have in and what the pitfalls of going tank heavy might be.

Any experienced treadheads want to give me a few pointers?

I say go for it. My Imperial Guard army (~2000 points) has a lot of tanks and the LRBT is a great tank, especially with the recent points change. I have magnetized the demolisher, executioner, and punisher cannons from that kit so I can swap weapons as needed. I suggest running three as Tank Commanders, and then three more LRBT models so you can form a single unit if you desire. I like adding plasma on the sponsons and running my army as Tallarn to avoid the to-hit penalty for movement. I also bring six infantry squads, two sentinels and a hellhound, three astropaths, a basilisk and a couple mortar teams to form a brigade. You need infantry to screen your tanks; if the enemy gets into melee with your tanks they get shut down. Tallarn infantry are able to move quickly as well.