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They're all meh. Fun and fluffy but nothing that will cause me to build army lists or play differently in more competitive games.

The +6" range would allow you to first rank second rank from reserve though. Thats a ton of shots at -2.

So what, you want to drop a 5 man Scion squad WITH Tempestor Prime just to shoot some S3 AP-2 shots at something? What will that do? And if you want to drop a larger squad in, that's a lot of points to just shoot fancy lasguns and then easily die. The cost-benefit ratio doesn't seem worth it.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
So what, you want to drop a 5 man Scion squad WITH Tempestor Prime just to shoot some S3 AP-2 shots at something? What will that do? And if you want to drop a larger squad in, that's a lot of points to just shoot fancy lasguns and then easily die. The cost-benefit ratio doesn't seem worth it.

Actually:

2 units of 10 Scion plus a Tempestor with rod is just 180 points and averages 11,8 marine wounds,Some examples:

Tactical squad: 11.8 x 12 (points per wound) = 141.6 (points killed)
Intercesors: 11.8 x 17/2 = 100.3
Incursors: 11.8 x 19/2 = 112.1
Infiltrators: 11.8 x 22/2 = 129.8

Reivers: 11.8 x 16/2 = 94.4
Aggressors: 11.8 x 37/3 = 145.5

Suppresors: 11.8 x 30/2 = 177
Inceptors: 11.8 x 41/3 = 161.5


Is not to bad IMO, it gives some punch to cheap DS units

Thanks for showing the math on that. Guess we'll see. I wouldn't hold my breath on anyone using Scions in this manner. It would be cool if I were wrong, I have tons of Kasrkins and they're my favorite models ever.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
So what, you want to drop a 5 man Scion squad WITH Tempestor Prime just to shoot some S3 AP-2 shots at something? What will that do? And if you want to drop a larger squad in, that's a lot of points to just shoot fancy lasguns and then easily die. The cost-benefit ratio doesn't seem worth it.

It's not about running units with nothing but hot-shots, but the hot-shots actually being killy enough that they contribute meaningful damage instead of the special weapons having to pull all the weight. Enough that playing an entire detachement of Scions/Stormtroopers/Kasrkin actually becomes worthwhile instead of just being a deep-striking special weapons delivery service thanks to gimped small-arms. And yes, it's a hugely superior buff compared to the vanilla-Scion doctrine.
Not to mention that the doctrine means 30" plasma guns with 18" rapid fire. That's deadly even if you are footslogging and rather impossible to screen against if they deep-strike.
And yes, it makes FRFSRF on hot-shots actually very worthwhile if there is no target for Elimination Protocols around.

Also the +1 AP doctrine is pretty ace especially on plasma (both guns and the cheap pistols), -4 AP means 3+ models like Marines or tanks only get a 6+ rather than a 5+ save, which HALVES their chances of passing their save. It also gets past the -2 AP resistance of Valorous Heart with hot-shots (particularly good on the volley-gun), the currently most popular SoB Order and pretty much neuters them as they don't have much else going for them besides 6+ FnP and a strat that doesn't even do much against Guard. This will be even more the case if more regiments/orders/chapters/etc. with AP-2 immunity end up being introduced to the game.
Also AP-2 Krak and AP-1 frag grenades (including Grenade Launchers), AP -1 Flamers and an extra -1 on all melee weapons for the lulz.

Nice interesting stuff there, I'd be tempted to use the +6'' myself.

Another point worth making is the 6" range doctrine lets you deepstrike outside of 12" and thus dodge all auspex scan strats, that new tau prototype system which blocks DS inside 12" etc. It's a much bigger buff than just "hotshots can rapid fire now".

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
So what, you want to drop a 5 man Scion squad WITH Tempestor Prime just to shoot some S3 AP-2 shots at something? What will that do? And if you want to drop a larger squad in, that's a lot of points to just shoot fancy lasguns and then easily die. The cost-benefit ratio doesn't seem worth it.

It's not about running units with nothing but hot-shots, but the hot-shots actually being killy enough that they contribute meaningful damage instead of the special weapons having to pull all the weight. Enough that playing an entire detachement of Scions/Stormtroopers/Kasrkin actually becomes worthwhile instead of just being a deep-striking special weapons delivery service thanks to gimped small-arms. And yes, it's a hugely superior buff compared to the vanilla-Scion doctrine.
Not to mention that the doctrine means 30" plasma guns with 18" rapid fire. That's deadly even if you are footslogging and rather impossible to screen against if they deep-strike.
And yes, it makes FRFSRF on hot-shots actually very worthwhile if there is no target for Elimination Protocols around.

Also the +1 AP doctrine is pretty ace especially on plasma (both guns and the cheap pistols), -4 AP means 3+ models like Marines or tanks only get a 6+ rather than a 5+ save, which HALVES their chances of passing their save. It also gets past the -2 AP resistance of Valorous Heart with hot-shots (particularly good on the volley-gun), the currently most popular SoB Order and pretty much neuters them as they don't have much else going for them besides 6+ FnP and a strat that doesn't even do much against Guard. This will be even more the case if more regiments/orders/chapters/etc. with AP-2 immunity end up being introduced to the game.
Also AP-2 Krak and AP-1 frag grenades (including Grenade Launchers), AP -1 Flamers and an extra -1 on all melee weapons for the lulz.

Eh... It halves their chance (if they're in cover, otherwise it completely negates their chance of saving) but that's only actually a 25% (5+ to 6+) or 20% (6+ to nothing) increase in damage.

 gbghg wrote:
Another point worth making is the 6" range doctrine lets you deepstrike outside of 12" and thus dodge all auspex scan strats, that new tau prototype system which blocks DS inside 12" etc. It's a much bigger buff than just "hotshots can rapid fire now".

This is the real juicy bit of the buff. It's good to see a counter to all the anti-deepstrike shenanigans armies are receiving. It's a shame I can't use these in a Brood Brothers detachment lol

Also interesting to note the Kappic Eagles one, states "when resolving an attack made by a model with this doctrine in a turn in which it disembarked from a transport, add +1 to the hit roll". It does not specify only shooting, so you're getting +1 to hit in close combat too - nice edge for those power weapons.

Theoretically you could argue, it would also apply if they were disembarked from a destroyed transport, then got charged...

 Kcalehc wrote:
Also interesting to note the Kappic Eagles one, states "when resolving an attack made by a model with this doctrine in a turn in which it disembarked from a transport, add +1 to the hit roll". It does not specify only shooting, so you're getting +1 to hit in close combat too - nice edge for those power weapons.

Theoretically you could argue, it would also apply if they were disembarked from a destroyed transport, then got charged...

In the same vein it should stack with the bit from tempestus drop force so your scions are +2 to hit on the turn they jump out a valk which means plasma scions leaping out of a valk is arguably one of our better ways of killing flyers.

Man it's a tough call for Stormtroopers on if you want the +1 AP or the +6" range to rapid fire weapons, both have some very good uses. I bet you could build either to be very strong, it just depends on meta. The extra range I think will win out in utility, but AP4 plasma and ap3 hellguns is pretty tasty too. Guess it boils down to what you normally see. Either one would reward a large amount of stormtroopers dropping in and gives you an actual reason to bring more riflemen, always a plus. Curious to see their relics and WLT'S. They're the two I see being the best allied force

I wouldn't count out the others either for pure lists. For example, psian jackals, the one that makes each casualty count as two could actually be pretty nasty with proper setup. Kill 4 Primaris on a drop and they're passing leadership on a 1. Many units you fight you wouldn't even have to finish killing off, even LD 10 units aren't able to pass the test at all with just 5 casualties. Basically just drop in, maul stuff, and profit. Especially since that one works with tauroxes. On top of that in our own codex we have the pysker power Terrifying visions, that can drop 2 ld off something alone, and that doesn't even bring up abilities that admech, Inquisition, knights, etc. have. If that trait gets a good relic and WLT I could see it being a good curve ball sleeper style army. Yes, people can insane bravery to save a unit, but now they've burned two CP they probably never dreamed they would need and youre doing this potentially army wide. Heck these guys will murder chaff infantry that don't have autopass options, since a single taurox Gatling cannon shooting GEQ will be making them test at -14 with just 7 casualties. That ability shuts down an unofficial rule in the game for units that aren't usually meant to fail morale. Take Kastelan robots in admech for example. Usually even a full size unit can't fail morale at ld10 with 6 robots. With this, you kill 4 robots, and odds are extremely high at least one or possibly both will run. A full army of these guys makes battleshock actually scary for armies that have never had to worry about it much in the past, and is probably the nastiest one where you just deepstrike them in and have tauroxes as fire support tanks. Will it be taking top tables anytime soon? Probably not unless stormtroopers get additional buffs, but it's one to watch.

You also have the Kappic Eagles who with the vigilus Valkyrie detachment can have BS1+ on the drop between the drop commander wlt and their regiment ability. They can essentially drop all over the board with 0 risk of dying to overcharge and lighting people up with Hotshot Volleyguns hitting on 2's. They're probably your best bet if you're set on using Valkyries with stormtroopers or actually transporting stuff with tauroxes. Honestly the only two unexciting ones are the ones that generate additional shots on a 6+, unless they get ways to buff BS they won't do much, but maybe their wlt and relics save them.

Onto regular guard stuff, some really cool stuff there. Lots of it is more fun for narrative games, like the Jerry rigging trait, but combining Catachans reroll shot count and mordians 5+ overwatch goes a long way to giving you the ability to survive as an armored company. Not to mention tank aces and presumably some more abilities targeting tanks. Inversely, you can pick two abilities that affect infantry as well. Not seen much for infantry abilities yet but the 18" rapid fire is very strong, especially if some of the other abilities give us say cover saves like the Raven guard trait or Catachan s4.

I'm assuming the main regiments are going to have their niches as being the only way to get certain combos of traits, and cadians and Catachans obviously have some very powerful characters and abilities to keep them in the running. Only 12 traits to choose from means we're not getting every single bog standard regiment trait most likely, so in all likelihood some of the more unique ones like s4 Catachan infantry or Valhallans half degrading tanks will probably remain unique to them.

Has anyone mentioned that the Tank Aces strat looks like it can apply to all AM Vehicles, like Vultures, etc.? -1 AP punisher vulture sounds pretty nice, anything else that would benefit much?

yeah, the wording is a super loose. You could give it to a sentinel or arvus lighter if you really wanted to...

I'm interested to see the full list and whether there's anything worth sticking on a superheavy etc. Unfortunately the -1ap trait is fairly worthless on anything not a leman russ, it specifies that the extra -1AP only applies to turret weapons, and punishers have a twin punisher cannon, not a punisher cannon like the russ so technically wouldn't benefit from it.

Cleric wrote:
Has anyone mentioned that the Tank Aces strat looks like it can apply to all AM Vehicles, like Vultures, etc.? -1 AP punisher vulture sounds pretty nice, anything else that would benefit much?

This doesn't work on the Vulture. But other Tank ace traits (once we have not seen yet€ might work on stuff like thunderbolts, marauders (!) or a Baneblade for example. Can't wait till the book is out to see what can be done.

For banebiade this and give doctrine even in aux works

Some of the new stuff for Stormtroopers got previewed today.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/07/the-greater-good-militarum-tempestus-faction-focusgw-homepage-post-3/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40k&utm_content=40kpsychicawakening07022020

The Kappic Eagles (? The guys who get bonuses for disembarking basically) get a WLT that let's them give orders from transports out to 24". On top of that stormtroopers get a generic strat that let's a single Valkyrie gravchute its contents just outside of 5" away instead of 9", so even meltas can be within half range. With all these combos Valkyrie inserted stormtroopers might actually be decent. Also, it's just aeronautica imperialis with the grav insertion ability, so if GW ever fixes the Vendetta that can be used with it as well.

It was stated stormtroopers are getting 8 regular strats and an additional regiment specific one. One of which let's you take a Scion Commander and give him a WLT, much like Vigilus detachments or we are Alpharius. Pretty neat. It means that stormtrooper armies can have 3 WLT's going around between regular warlord, vigilus drop warlord, and a stormtrooper specific bonus wlt with the strat as well. Stormtroopers, between these buffs and their points drops, might actually be halfway viable after this.

Overall not a whole lot was spoiled that wasn't already shown in yesterday's regiment post, but I'm liking what I'm seeing. At bare minimum they could prove to be a fun backup batallion for my guardsmen. GW seems to have tried very hard to cover a lot of the issues stormtrooper armies have faced in the past with this. No way of telling if it's successful yet, but it's a start. May not be taking LVO but I can easily see these new abilities holding their own in a casual game night in a local club.

Dang, might just have to buy myself a Valkyrie now... though I'll wait till the book comes out incase there's any other fun combinations coming.

Also nice that some of the strats and doctrines can also work on the Taurox Prime - making some of its guns quite a bit more powerful.

I'm liking what got revealed today. That master vox trait works from inside a vehicle and you measure from the hull so a tempestor prime in a valk will be a massive and very mobile order bubble. The pistol is kinda gimmicky but it still 2mw's on the hit with 6's granting an additional hit and thus mortal wound for a potential 4mw's every time you shoot it. Not something to go out of your way to grab but if you're running that doctrine anyway and can take another relic you could have some fun with it.

New precision drop is a straight upgrade over the old one and doesn't require the drop force so it's all pluses. The ability to drop at 5"'s opens the possibility of taking melt as and powerfists and going tank hunting though cost and screens will probably see people continue to favour plasma.

Progeny of conflict is something we'll probably use every game, along with tank aces. The ability to get essentially 4 warlord traits on the field is crazy and could open up some nasty combos and stacking going.

Fairly new astra militarum player (main army is stormtroopers with krieg support). A point to note is that with the old vigilus stratagem that let you jump out without taking casualties, its named the same as the new one. does that mean you can only use one or can you use both on a turn? I have 2 valks filled with guys so it would be pretty nice if they could both jump out turn one with no casualties for 2 cp


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, one problem I see with the -1 ap trait is that all your anti-tank stuff will just have too much ap, so many vehicles with invuln saves out there. Then again marine vehicles don't really have them and they're whats taking over. However, putting that trait on a superheavy with the tank ace strat could be juicy. I use a doomhammer so -4 on the main gun and lascannons, -2 on the heavy bolters is kinda wack. Also, has anyone thought about the stormlord? Wouldnt its gun now be 20 shots at ap -3 2dmg

Did we already see the exact wording of the Tank Ace rules? I am wondering if they can be slapped onto planes, being Astra Militarum but not having the regiment keyword there might be an obstacle. But I would love to have my Light use 'Full payload' as a tank ace trait. (" Do not roll to determine the Damage characteristic of weapons that model is equipped with; they have their maximum values.")

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
Did we already see the exact wording of the Tank Ace rules? I am wondering if they can be slapped onto planes, being Astra Militarum but not having the regiment keyword there might be an obstacle. But I would love to have my Light use 'Full payload' as a tank ace trait. (" Do not roll to determine the Damage characteristic of weapons that model is equipped with; they have their maximum values.")

Tank Aces (Leman Russ)

Master Mechanic
When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon against this unit, reduce the Damage characteristic of that weapon by 1 to a minimum of 1 for that attack.

Slow and Purposeful
In your shooting phase, when resolving an attack made by this model, if it did not move or moved a distance less than half its Move characteristic in the preceding Movement phase, re-roll a wound roll of 1.

Weapon Expert
Improve the AP characteristic of its turret weapons by 1.

Armoured Rush
In your shooting phase, this model can shoot with turret weapons if is equipped with even if it Advanced this turn.

Up-armoured
This model has a Save characteristic of 2+

Steel Commander
Tank Commander models with this ability can use an additional Tank Order each turn.


Support Aces (Basilisk, Wyvern, Hydra, Manticore, Deathstrike)

Full Payload
Do not roll to determine the Damage charateristic of weapons this model is equipped with,. they always have the maximum values.

Shatterer of Will
In the shooting phase, after you have resolved all of the attacks made by this model, select one enemy unit that any of those attacks scored a hit against. Until the end of the turn, subtract 2 from the Leadership characteristic of that unit.

Well-stocked Magazines
When roling to determine the Type charateristic of a ranged weapon this model is equipped with, you can re-roll any or all the dice.


Super-heavy Aces (Titanic Vehicles)

Inspiring Might
When a Morale test is taken for a friendly Astra Militarum unit within 6" of this model, roll one additional D6 and discard one of the dice.

Hull-down Deployment
This models receives the benefit of the cover until the first time it moves in the battle.

Steadfast Leviathan.
If your army is Battle-forged, this model gains the Regimental Doctrines of its <REGIMENT> even if it is in a Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment

Full Payload
Do not roll to determine the Damage charateristic of weapons this model is equipped with,. they always have the maximum values.


I've always wanted a Deathstrike Missile Launcher. Not because it's good, but because KABOOM. Now it's even more silly! I love it!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Full Payload
Do not roll to determine the Damage charateristic of weapons this model is equipped with,. they always have the maximum values.


I've always wanted a Deathstrike Missile Launcher. Not because it's good, but because KABOOM. Now it's even more silly! I love it!

Not to be a negative Nancy, but this stratagem actually doesn't do anything for Deathstrikes. They don't have a random Damage characteristic, they don't even use the normal shooting rules, they use a completely bespoke snowflake rule to inflict mortal wounds.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Full Payload
Do not roll to determine the Damage charateristic of weapons this model is equipped with,. they always have the maximum values.


I've always wanted a Deathstrike Missile Launcher. Not because it's good, but because KABOOM. Now it's even more silly! I love it!

Would that count for the MW it inflicts? I would think it means literal damage but then again it does specifically list deathstrikes for this. A deathstrike with that would be insane with halfway decent rolls. That's what, the most potential MW from a single unit in the game?

Yeah you're investing something like 4-5 CP into it to get it off and once your opponent sees what you're up to he's going to throw everything he has at it but it's a hell of a distraction. You're pretty much pointing a nuke at the table and saying "make my day"

Robcio wrote:
Fairly new astra militarum player (main army is stormtroopers with krieg support). A point to note is that with the old vigilus stratagem that let you jump out without taking casualties, its named the same as the new one. does that mean you can only use one or can you use both on a turn? I have 2 valks filled with guys so it would be pretty nice if they could both jump out turn one with no casualties for 2 cp

Pretty sure faq says same name, can't use both. Could be wrong though

You can't use the old one because the new one replaces it (at least when they eventually FAQ it like they did for Space Marines, until then it's not clear and you can argue either way).

Either way you can't use both versions in the same phase due to the Tactical Restraint rule.

So my Catachans just jumped ahead mutiple notches lol. My manticore can now reroll the number of shots, add 1 to hit rerolling ones near a character (harker or yarrick) and does a flat 3 damage

Then theres the hammer of sundrance battle canon commander with AP -3 or the demolisher commander that can pop off for 12 shots

and i can always still take a tempestor prime and use strats to ensure I can still take grand strategist.

This game needs a hard reset already again.

 Red Corsair wrote:

This game needs a hard reset already again.

What would a hard reset accomplish? It would just be a temporary release from the rules bloat until it isn't again. Meanwhile, your entire library of codices/CA/Vigilus/PA books become completely worthless all at once.

If they're going to do a 9th Ed, it'd better be changing over to a full D10 or even D12 based system so they can finally give themselves more design space to make balance and points changes.