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Has anyone laid eyes on the custom doctrines page? I'm wondering whether the wording would allow them to replace <Krieg>, thus giving Kriegers some actual doctrines....

RogueApiary wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

This game needs a hard reset already again.

What would a hard reset accomplish? It would just be a temporary release from the rules bloat until it isn't again. Meanwhile, your entire library of codices/CA/Vigilus/PA books become completely worthless all at once.

If they're going to do a 9th Ed, it'd better be changing over to a full D10 or even D12 based system so they can finally give themselves more design space to make balance and points changes.

It would give at least some room to play working game. As it is bloat and power creep will just grow exponentially. Only matter of time before gw gives ability to alpha strike in deployment phase

Has anyone got info on new psychic things in Psychic Awakening? I was looking forward to a small exansion in our warp-cursed abilities. From what I have seen we get a stratagem (psychic barrage?) but I can't find much info on it, as all the talk is about more sexy changes. I've heard it described as similar to the seer council, but I don't really know what that means.

I would also like to see the possible combinations.

By the way, as I would like to try some kind of melee Guard some day (as ineffective as it seems), I mathhammered around a little bit how the two leaked CC traits (+1 hit on a 6 in CC and +1 AP when in range of an officer) stack up against the Catachan +1S. Of corse the catachans still have the advantage of Straken, that makes them the best melee regiment, but just looking at a barebones Infantry squad (11 S3 attacks):

The custom melee regiment is slightly better against T3, T5 and T8+ (regardless of save) as well as T4 with Sv 4+ or better, and T6/T7 with Sv2+. In all other cases the Catachans are still better even without Straken. Do with that info what you want. What I draw from that is that melee guard is still more of a fun option and Catachans are still best at it. A pity, since it would have been a funny alternative in my opinion.

Well, you're forgetting that you can stack your traits to have 2 infantry/tank ones. So while a normal guard army just shoves everything into a detachment be it tank or infantry because they get one of each, if you're going to run custom regiments you should be putting all infantry in one detachment and all your tanks in another.

So yes, Catachan are the best melee regiment, absolutely. But you could take say +1 AP and the 18" rapid fire ability or the one that gives you cover on your infantry in a batallion. Then take your tanks in a spearhead and give them Catachan style reroll shots and the repair or overwatch ability. With use of Vigilus and PA, you're actually closing the gap on a regular Catachan forces effectiveness pretty quickly. At that point it's more preference and how well you can leverage your regiment traits and if you have the detachments spare to do it. Yes you lose Catachan characters and strat/wlt, but you gain double the traits for.pretty much the same units you were going to run anyways

With all the leaks, seems like Tempestus Scions should have their own Tactica thread. When I get home from I am more than willing to get it started. If someone else does though I won't mind.

Nah, they're still a subfaction. They have a couple of tricks but they're still reliant on the rest of the army for heavier units. I'd prefer if we keep the discussions in one place personally as the best way to run scions will probably be in conjunction with other guard detachments.

Once i get my hands on the book I'm gonna start looking at running a scion battalion alongside another guard detachment or two. scions deepstrike in and take the fight to the enemy while regular guard bring the heavy firepower.

Also for what it's worth, Dragons make Deep Strike Flamers something that can actually happen. 14" threat range is nothing to sneeze at, but likely you'd just want to use something else as anti-infantry

@ Mr. Moustaffa: Yes, I totally agree. I might have been unclear in my post. What I tried to indicate was if you would be better of with a custom regiment with both melee traits compared to Catachan if you for some reason want to have a Guard-Melee-Infantry detachment. If my math is not totally of the answer would be, as soon as Straken gets involved, Catachan is still superior for a potential melee guard detachment.

But as "pure melee" is a dumb idea anyway I agree wholeheartedly, that the new mix and match allows for customizing an infantry detachment and another vehicle detachment.


To be honest I'm just a bit sad because I really would have wanted to try a melee oriented detachment that's not Catachan and had a bit of hope that PA would give the tools for that. I know it's not a competetive idea, but personally it would have been fun.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also for what it's worth, Dragons make Deep Strike Flamers something that can actually happen. 14" threat range is nothing to sneeze at, but likely you'd just want to use something else as anti-infantry

Flamers are not rapid fire weapons, and so do not benefit from the crack shots doctrine.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
With all the leaks, seems like Tempestus Scions should have their own Tactica thread. When I get home from I am more than willing to get it started. If someone else does though I won't mind.

I can put one together if you haven't already started, I have most of the new stuff written down from yesterday lol.

Im down for one as I mostly play just scions and with the new rules we have so many cool new synergies

ItsPug wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also for what it's worth, Dragons make Deep Strike Flamers something that can actually happen. 14" threat range is nothing to sneeze at, but likely you'd just want to use something else as anti-infantry

Flamers are not rapid fire weapons, and so do not benefit from the crack shots doctrine.

I thought I read it was supposed to be Rapid Fire and Assault Weapons. My mistake and sorry for the misinformation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Khorzain wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
With all the leaks, seems like Tempestus Scions should have their own Tactica thread. When I get home from I am more than willing to get it started. If someone else does though I won't mind.

I can put one together if you haven't already started, I have most of the new stuff written down from yesterday lol.

I'm probably working until 9 so have a crack at it.

Regarding my earlier post:
actually my math was a bit off, as I calculated an additional attack on a 6 with slum fighters not an additional HIT.
Taking that into account the custom melee regiment (Lords Approval and Slum fighters) beats out Catachan (without Straken), vs T3, T4, T5, T8 (regardless of save), T6 and T7 with 2+. It is equal against T6 and T7 with 3+ and worse against T6 and T7 with 4+ or worse.
But of course it's still nothing to write home about.

Interesting thing with that extra hit: for Conscripts with their WS5+ it amounts to +50% melee hits. As instead of hitting 2/6 times on average (once each on a 5 and 6), they hit 3/6 times (once on a 5 and twice on a 6).

I know Ogryns aren't exactly a staple of IG armies at the best of times, but I imagine their fans will be disappointed to hear that their increased cost in CA 2019 wasn't amended in the errata.

So i think the go to Tank Ace is going to be Full Payload Basilisk in a Vigilus Detachement as Catachan, shooting twice eash turn.
Bad boy can shred multiwound stuff.

Also, i think i finally found a leadership/morale mechanic.
Needs a Detachment of Tempestus Jackals, a stratagem and an Astropath.


Shatter of Will Stratagem on a HIT for -2 leadership. Then use astropath for Terrifying visoins for another -2.
Now, Jackals scions double the causalities 2 for 1 on leadership test.

So one killed guy is at a -6 on leadership, 2 guys is at -8.

So killing 2 Marine Intercessors Ld8 is going to be an autofail even with rerolls, if they are Ultramarine's or using some buffs to get a Ld 9/10, then you need to kill 3.

But you can make 10 man intercessors unit run, or 6 man Centurions run if you can pop 2 guys from the Jackals your making the whole squad run, or at worst forcing them to burn 2 CP. Remember that the Apocathary cant bring back units that flee from morale. Really think this can be a nasty trick on those multiwound elite unit models.

Nice. Especially when you drop in the scions with a Valk.

That's [pretty awesome and I will one up you there -- I run an inquisitor psyker up front in my lines who gets out of the valkyries to psy support the scion troops. Terrify gets another 1 ld minus on the troop, by which point you have 3 ld minus on it, and its time to dominate, causing one centurion to attack another in melee, and quite possibly starting your clock of dead centurions at 1 (thus FOUR ld minus before your backfield shatterer of will fires in to add a sixth minus.) As that makes it very likely you have 1 dead centurion one way or the other and a -6ld debuf, the fire from your squad of scions need only kill one to move it to 8.
Now, our enemy starts with leadership, if I am doing the math right, of 0, and you roll to see if you wipe the squad of three. There is good odds the squad melts away in terror. A pile of mere primaris intercessers, I am thinking, you would probably have killed a couple with the manticore and probably 1 more with plasma fire from the squad, so they are going to start at 8 -2(astro spell) -1(inquisitor spell) -2 -2or3(manticore kills) -4or6 (your plasma in the squad kills 2 or so) = somewhere around -3 leadership, which ... I don't even have a damn clue what that does, does he roll a 1 and lose 4 models, or a 2 and lose the squad?

You sir, are my new hero. I am so using this today! "Those lazy scions weren't at close range, they didn't need to be, cause centurions are terrified of scions."

Lets be blunt, I have enough scion firepower ot straight up kill a six centurion squad ... but if I can do it on the cheap, I can get a couple repulsor executioners to explode as well, on my alpha strike, or I can do it from a bit disadvantaged range. The implications of this are something I will have to long consider, most especially cause jakals get the scion version of master of ambush and the scion version of jink, both things I wanted pretty badly.

It's a lot of investment for something that can be negated with a 2cp strat.

It is definitely fun, but I think stacking to wipe one squad is a risk. It will be great for horde clearing and making 5 man squads actually fear moral.

 Sentineil wrote:
It's a lot of investment for something that can be negated with a 2cp strat.

It is definitely fun, but I think stacking to wipe one squad is a risk. It will be great for horde clearing and making 5 man squads actually fear moral.

The list that won LVO started the game with 5 CP. Obviously some Marine lists will have more, but centurions are probably also spending 2CP for transhuman physiology if plasma is hitting them So you're either burning a lot more of your opponent's CP than they planned on or like Dukeofstuff said, you can spend your firepower elsewhere if the unit you shoot at is ok living

I've been thinking about how powerful you could make a manticore with these rules, mainly because some of the new stratagems last all phase so you can double shoot them. Tell me if I have missed anything major or gone too far:

Emperor's wrath manticore
- Well stocked magazines for reroll shot number.
- Direct onslaught for +1 to hit. (1cp)
- MoO for reroll 1s over 36", which is probably possible on turn 1.
- Pounding barrage for an extra shot with direct onslaught. (2cp)

Are there any more stratagems that could be doubled with pounding barrage? You could switch to a basilisk and use aerial spotter instead of direct onslaught, or a wyvern can use both at once. Then of course there are all sorts of psychic buffs (Aradia Madellan) and auras, or even cadian/catachan/new doctrines.

 Sentineil wrote:
It's a lot of investment for something that can be negated with a 2cp strat.

It is definitely fun, but I think stacking to wipe one squad is a risk. It will be great for horde clearing and making 5 man squads actually fear moral.

I think the key to making it work is not to stack it all on one enemy squad, but to spread it among a whole enemy army. He can only autopass one morale check. So you spread the damage a bit across a few units. So this probably works best as a mono or mostly mono stormtroopers force. This trait also works with tauroxes as well, so you can use some hiding in the back to help plink units for morale checks. Super deathstacking a single enemy squad is perhaps too easily countered, but say casting terrify on one enemy lynchpin unit while using the artillery debuffs on another gives you reasonable chances to wreck both squads, and the opponent will have to choose. He's more likely to pass the squad with less casualties, but if he's wrong he can lose more men. He can auto pass the squad with more casualties but is it worth two CP to save 1-2 centurions for example, especially when the average tournament list is not planning on reserving 2 cp for autopass morale of all things.

Also, making a marine player burn 2 cp could be a big deal. We tend to be swimming in CP as mono guard. Perhaps it's worth it for us to burn 2-3 cp just to make the opponent burn 2, because he may start the game with 10 while we can easily start the game with 20. Perhaps one of the biggest bits of utility this list has is forcing your opponent to burn CP he can't afford. I mean take an army like admech or CSM. They're needing every CP planned to the wire usually. Forcing them to burn 2cp is a doubletap robbed from a CSM chaincannons squad, or a wrath of Mars from a Kastelans castle. You're quite literally fighting a war of attrition with CP at that point. Even better if you can force him to auspex scan and burn even more CP, killing a small Scion squad only for more to drop in behind it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:
I've been thinking about how powerful you could make a manticore with these rules, mainly because some of the new stratagems last all phase so you can double shoot them. Tell me if I have missed anything major or gone too far:

Emperor's wrath manticore
- Well stocked magazines for reroll shot number.
- Direct onslaught for +1 to hit. (1cp)
- MoO for reroll 1s over 36", which is probably possible on turn 1.
- Pounding barrage for an extra shot with direct onslaught. (2cp)

Are there any more stratagems that could be doubled with pounding barrage? You could switch to a basilisk and use aerial spotter instead of direct onslaught, or a wyvern can use both at once. Then of course there are all sorts of psychic buffs (Aradia Madellan) and auras, or even cadian/catachan/new doctrines.

Can't use pounding barrage with manticore, it's not one of the keywords allowed with that vigilus detachment, same for deathstrike.

Additionally, even if it was, manticore datasheet explicitly stated it may only fire one missile a turn

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Can't use pounding barrage with manticore, it's not one of the keywords allowed with that vigilus detachment, same for deathstrike.

Additionally, even if it was, manticore datasheet explicitly stated it may only fire one missile a turn

Ah well. I guess a basilisk can still do it but that isn't as fun as a manticore.

Manticore's don't get to use pounding barrage unless I missed an faq somewhere. In any case, make it vostrayan, pop firstborn pride and that manticore is now hitting on 2's.

Compounding this issue is the fact that basilisks don't benefit from Direct onslaught either. The wyvern does however and while the idea of an bs2+ 8d6, rerolling shot count, rerolling hits, rerolling wounds against infantry wyvern is hilarious I don't think there's anything in the meta that really requires that many shots that couldn't be dealt with better by something else.


Edit: so I decided to plug the above into the stat engine cause i have nothing better to do this evening apparently. Assuming the following buffs are in place.

Emperor's wrath detachment (+1CP)
Well stocked magazines (which i'm assuming lets you reroll all shot die as i don't have know the specific wording) (+1CP)
Aerial Spotters to reroll all hits (+2CP)
Pounding Barrage to shoot twice (+2CP)
Direct Onslaught for +1 to hit (+1CP)
Firstborn Pride for +1 to hit (+1CP)

I'd stick the trait Lord of ordnance on their as well but i have no idea how to add 6's grant AP-1 in the stat engine. So 8 CP gets us the following

Against GEQ's. Mean wounds of 20.13
https://tinyurl.com/tw92atv

Against MEQ's. Mean wounds of 8.49
https://tinyurl.com/wjr742j

I'd be interest to see how it performs against MEQ's with the warlord trait but that's a massive CP investment for relatively little result against the current meta army. The performance against GEQ is hilarious however.

The Catachan (reroll random shots) Basilisk in vigilus with Harker (reroll 1s_ Acadia (+1 to hit pysker power). Shoot twice stratagem and max damage 3 from full payload. WIth Vigiulus warlord on a 6 (5's with Acada) get extra -1 AP. relic Agripina Orbtial Trackers to ignore cove. Can take Old Grudges as well.

Assuming shoot twice and ignores cover emperors Wrath Artillery. Vs T5 2+ Save Centurions

Catachan (reroll random dice), Harker(reroll 1s_, Acadia(+1 to hit), Old Grudges (erroll wounds) 16.59 wounds

Above without old grudges: 12.44 wounds
Without Acadia and with Old Grudges 12.44
*so +1 to hit or Old Grudges are effectively the same in this case.
Above without Acadia or old grudges:9.33 Wounds
Above without Harker as well: 8 wounds even.

I couldnt figure out how to get the extra AP on 6s in the stats so everything should be slightly better.


Aggressors Die even faster. 10wounds
With Harker: 11.67 wounds
with acadia or old grudges 15.56 wounds
WIth Harker, Acadia, Old Grudges: 20.74 Wounds

Again likely higher as you are getting AP -4 on 6's so some of those aggressors wont even get saves.

With all 3 buffs Vs T8 5+ Invul IK its 16.59 wounds; with a 4+ invul its 12.44

The key is to make sure to go first and not lose this guy to any indirect fire. I think taking other basiilks or stuff that kill any TFC/Whirlwinds is important.

Not tactics but for those who are interested valhallan models coming on sale at least temporarily on 22.2. 40$ for basic squad, 100$ for platoon etc.

No one's going to bring up a Vostroyan Tank Commander Ace?

Give it re-roll 1's to wound or bonus AP, Order Gunners Kill on Sight, play Hail of Fire and Fury of the First.

12 shots hitting on 2's rerolling 1's to hit. Reroll 1's to wound or a bonus AP (statistically the same?).

Hammer of Sunderance gives most things a bad day. Demolisher ruins everyone's day.

EDIT: What would be the best way to bring one of these? Vostroyan Battalion with a Company Commander? (...I don't have enough Vostroyan models is why I ask)

Carrying on the stat engine binge. Here's a basilisk with the following buffs

Firstborn Pride (+1 BS) (+1CP)
Aerial Spotters (reroll failed hits) (+2CP)
Full Payload (flat 3 damage) (+1CP)
Pounding Barrage (shoot twice) (2CP)
Old Grudges (reroll wounds)

Against GEQ. Mean wounds of 8.22.
https://tinyurl.com/resytkn

Against MEQ. Mean wounds of 5.87.
https://tinyurl.com/vvm9yvh

Against a LR. Mean wounds of 18.78
https://tinyurl.com/qveus85

Against a knight with rotate ion shields. Mean wounds of 11.27
https://tinyurl.com/toaqqp2

Edit: On further thought about the only thing you can do to buff a manticore is give it +1/+2 to hit, reroll ones and reroll wounds so you can't buff it as much as you can a basilisk and the basilisk looks to out perform the manticore even if you drop the basilisk down to the same buffs the manticore can get.

I keep thinking of little synergies, and then deciding that it is a waste and better to just go with more tanks/men. For example, I was thinking about a supreme command shadowsword with a trojan, the overwatch trait, the reapair trait, and a techpriest. Then I think it would just be better to have like 100 more men or some russes or something, instead of bothering to buff the shadowsword.

That's the rub I guess. All the points and CP you put into things reduces the amount of wounds you can flood the game with. It's one reason I actually like basic russes, they are much cheaper for exactly the same durability.

 Trickstick wrote:
I keep thinking of little synergies, and then deciding that it is a waste and better to just go with more tanks/men. For example, I was thinking about a supreme command shadowsword with a trojan, the overwatch trait, the reapair trait, and a techpriest. Then I think it would just be better to have like 100 more men or some russes or something, instead of bothering to buff the shadowsword.

That's the rub I guess. All the points and CP you put into things reduces the amount of wounds you can flood the game with. It's one reason I actually like basic russes, they are much cheaper for exactly the same durability.

On the other hand, mathammering it out, it takes around 3 regular Russes to get the same firepower as two Tank Commanders, for more points. To be fair, you do get 12 more T8 3+ wounds, but I'd rather save the points for either more Guardsmen or something else.

To each their own I guess.