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Arcanis161 wrote:
On the other hand, mathammering it out, it takes around 3 regular Russes to get the same firepower as two Tank Commanders, for more points. To be fair, you do get 12 more T8 3+ wounds, but I'd rather save the points for either more Guardsmen or something else.

To each their own I guess.

I usually go for a bit of both, so like 2 TC 3 LR or something. However, I am considering 1 TC with Sundrance, then 3 plain demolishers. Try to give the enemy something to think about when it comes to target priority. If I made one of the demolishers a TC it would be the first choice every time, so the points are sort of wasted.

Arcanis161 wrote:
No one's going to bring up a Vostroyan Tank Commander Ace?

Give it re-roll 1's to wound or bonus AP, Order Gunners Kill on Sight, play Hail of Fire and Fury of the First.

12 shots hitting on 2's rerolling 1's to hit. Reroll 1's to wound or a bonus AP (statistically the same?).

Hammer of Sunderance gives most things a bad day. Demolisher ruins everyone's day.

EDIT: What would be the best way to bring one of these? Vostroyan Battalion with a Company Commander? (...I don't have enough Vostroyan models is why I ask)

I looked at it. You better off just taking a Tank Commander. ANd a super heavy has no invul still.

Just a quick question: the Furious Charge stratagem says "use this stratagem when an ogryn unit...". Would this be units with the Ogryn keyword? I know that things like tank commanders count as russes for things because they have the russ keyword. I ask because Bullgryns still have the Ogryn keyword, and it would be a useful thing for them to have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: Hail of Fire (the max shots one). Does it state turret weapon at all? Because getting 6 plasma shots from your sponsons would be nice, on top of the demolisher or sunderance.

 Dynas wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
No one's going to bring up a Vostroyan Tank Commander Ace?

Give it re-roll 1's to wound or bonus AP, Order Gunners Kill on Sight, play Hail of Fire and Fury of the First.

12 shots hitting on 2's rerolling 1's to hit. Reroll 1's to wound or a bonus AP (statistically the same?).

Hammer of Sunderance gives most things a bad day. Demolisher ruins everyone's day.

EDIT: What would be the best way to bring one of these? Vostroyan Battalion with a Company Commander? (...I don't have enough Vostroyan models is why I ask)

I looked at it. You better off just taking a Tank Commander. ANd a super heavy has no invul still.

Can you please clarify? I'm not following. I was talking about a Tank Commander.

Can you not make a Tank Commander a Tank Ace? Or play Hail of Fire on a Tank Commander?

"All multi shot weaponry" is what i've seen it posted as. Plasma sponsons are probably worth it but i feel kinda nervous sticking so much investment into a single model.

Goonhammer put a combo article out btw. Got some maths on a vostroyan TC with hammer of sunderance vs one with a demolisher. The demolisher TC looks scary, you trade rerolls sure but gain the firstborn pride strat and 6" on the cannon which becomes AP-4 with the trait. I'm toying with the idea of a vostroyan Emperor's fist supreme command detachment, take 2-3 TC's (maybe sub a primaris pysker in for one of the TC's), one with the hammer the other with the demolisher and expert gunner's trait. Demolisher uses the strat to move and still get grinding advance, then you pop the buff strats on whichever tank is best positioned (or still alive on your turn) to kill a priority target.

 gbghg wrote:
"All multi shot weaponry" is what i've seen it posted as. Plasma sponsons are probably worth it but i feel kinda nervous sticking so much investment into a single model.

Nice.

I don't really consider the plasma to be expensive any more. They are only 4 points more than bolters these days. Its not like when they used to be 40 points. The worst bit is probably overheating, especially with 6 shots, although there are plenty of ways to get rerolls and mitigate that.

 Trickstick wrote:
Just a quick question: the Furious Charge stratagem says "use this stratagem when an ogryn unit...". Would this be units with the Ogryn keyword? I know that things like tank commanders count as russes for things because they have the russ keyword. I ask because Bullgryns still have the Ogryn keyword, and it would be a useful thing for them to have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: Hail of Fire (the max shots one). Does it state turret weapon at all? Because getting 6 plasma shots from your sponsons would be nice, on top of the demolisher or sunderance.

Hail of Fire reads:

Use this Strategem in your Shooting phase, when a Leman Russ model from your army is chosen to shoot with. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made with a weapon by that model against a VEHICLE unit, do not roll to determine the Type characteristic of that weapon; it has the maximum value (e.g. a Heavy D6 weapon makes 6 shots).

So yeah, it applies to all Leman Russ weapons that roll for a number of shots.

 Khorzain wrote:
Hail of Fire reads:

Use this Strategem in your Shooting phase, when a Leman Russ model from your army is chosen to shoot with. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made with a weapon by that model against a VEHICLE unit, do not roll to determine the Type characteristic of that weapon; it has the maximum value (e.g. a Heavy D6 weapon makes 6 shots).

So yeah, it applies to all Leman Russ weapons that roll for a number of shots.

Nice.

Having another thought: tallarn demolisher tank commander with triple flamers. Unyielding advance for extra demolisher shot even from ambush, order to get within 8" from ambush, some tank ace thing and whatever other buffs/stratagems you care to bring. I know it is a lot of CP (6+) but 18 heavy flamer shots and 12 demolisher shots is going to mess a lot of things up.

I still think Tallarn Tank commanders are the only way to go, vehicles without invuls melt. You got to shoot and scoot out of line of sight to survive.

 Dynas wrote:
I still think Tallarn Tank commanders are the only way to go, vehicles without invuls melt. You got to shoot and scoot out of line of sight to survive.

I prefer Tallarn tanks for a single reason: I hate the idea of moving degrading my weapon fire. If I have to consider a -1 to hit, I know that I will stay still for extra firepower when the best idea would be to move.

However, I am considering a regiment split. Something like all the vehicles as Tallarn and all the infantry with the new permacover/18" rapidfire doctrines. Not sure yet but may experiment with it.

I'm not sure how good the cover trait will be in a world with imperial fists and other cover ignoring factions. I'm kind of leaning towards the advance and still shoot for the extra mobility

 gbghg wrote:
I'm not sure how good the cover trait will be in a world with imperial fists and other cover ignoring factions. I'm kind of leaning towards the advance and still shoot for the extra mobility

I was not a fan of that trait, as you take a -1 to hit when advancing. I would just take Tallarn who avoid that consequence.

 Trickstick wrote:

Having another thought: tallarn demolisher tank commander with triple flamers. Unyielding advance for extra demolisher shot even from ambush, order to get within 8" from ambush, some tank ace thing and whatever other buffs/stratagems you care to bring. I know it is a lot of CP (6+) but 18 heavy flamer shots and 12 demolisher shots is going to mess a lot of things up.

Unfortunately, Hail of Fire forces the tank to fire at a vehicle. Plasmas will still do a better job there than 18 flamer shots.

Honestly, I think anything that is a vehicle keyword should be able to move and shoot heavy weapons without the -1 to hit. Vehicles should be able to advance at -1 on heavy weapons (on vehicles) and assault weapons on vehicles can advance at no penalty.

This fixes that.
Then the trait for Tallarn should be able to do the full movement and still get grinding advance I think.

But now im wishilisting/rules writing and digressing.

Need to be able to hide, even an uparmor 2+ tank ace is still gonna get shredded by stalker bolt rifles.

A 2+ save Tank commander is nice, but isn't the trait which allows -1 damage more effective to make a Russ resilient?

 Trickstick wrote:

 gbghg wrote:
I'm not sure how good the cover trait will be in a world with imperial fists and other cover ignoring factions. I'm kind of leaning towards the advance and still shoot for the extra mobility

I was not a fan of that trait, as you take a -1 to hit when advancing. I would just take Tallarn who avoid that consequence.

Sure but in a custom reg you can get 18" rapid fire as well. So you get more shots at a worse bs. Its probably worth mathing out to see which does better tbh.

 gbghg wrote:
Sure but in a custom reg you can get 18" rapid fire as well. So you get more shots at a worse bs. Its probably worth mathing out to see which does better tbh.

Oh it's much better in that 12"-18", I hadn't thought about that. On the other hand, you really don't want to be using plasma with a -1 to hit. I guess it is just preference really.

 Dynas wrote:
Honestly, I think anything that is a vehicle keyword should be able to move and shoot heavy weapons without the -1 to hit.

My preference would be that Vehicles don't suffer the -1 penalty with Heavy Weapons, so long as they move no more than half their movement.


Also, complete aside, but I think 'Heavy', 'Assault' etc. should be abilities rather than weapon types.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
A 2+ save Tank commander is nice, but isn't the trait which allows -1 damage more effective to make a Russ resilient?

If they are shooting it with Dmg weapons of greater than 1 yes.
Still though, needs an invul.

I would take the -1D tank Ace trait before the 2+ armour. I am planing to use a pair of Tank commanders with those 2, and I will give the hammer of sundance to the -1D as it feels safer

Babar_babar wrote:
I would take the -1D tank Ace trait before the 2+ armour. I am planing to use a pair of Tank commanders with those 2, and I will give the hammer of sundance to the -1D as it feels safer

You can just take the -1 damage trait twice.

 Trickstick wrote:

Babar_babar wrote:
I would take the -1D tank Ace trait before the 2+ armour. I am planing to use a pair of Tank commanders with those 2, and I will give the hammer of sundance to the -1D as it feels safer

You can just take the -1 damage trait twice.

If it is possible I will totally do that

Babar_babar wrote:
If it is possible I will totally do that

Yeah it never restricts you from taking the same trait twice. The restrictions are that you can't give it to a named character, and you can't give more than one to a single model.

Something I haven't seen discussed much though is that you have to give up your warlord trait to get a tank ace (edit: for one of them anyway). Is it really worth giving up something like old grudges or grand strategist for these? I think it will probably depend on the list. You can always use 1cp to get one anyway. Also, I saw someone saying they could give up their Vigilus warlord trait for a tank ace, although I don't think that works as Vigilus traits are not from true Warlord units. You could still use them to get some extra "warlord" traits though. So 2 aces and whatever Vigilus stuff you want.

Thinking about it, losing your Warlord trait may actually be a good thing. It makes your Warlord less of a target, and also reduces the loss if they die.

 Trickstick wrote:

Babar_babar wrote:
I would take the -1D tank Ace trait before the 2+ armour. I am planing to use a pair of Tank commanders with those 2, and I will give the hammer of sundance to the -1D as it feels safer

You can just take the -1 damage trait twice.

Not on the same tank, but yeah, most likely. With Nids i take the Enhanced Resistance Physical Adaption on warriors twice (2 separate units). This tank ace rule is basically that.

 Trickstick wrote:

Babar_babar wrote:
If it is possible I will totally do that

Yeah it never restricts you from taking the same trait twice. The restrictions are that you can't give it to a named character, and you can't give more than one to a single model.

Something I haven't seen discussed much though is that you have to give up your warlord trait to get a tank ace (edit: for one of them anyway). Is it really worth giving up something like old grudges or grand strategist for these? I think it will probably depend on the list. You can always use 1cp to get one anyway. Also, I saw someone saying they could give up their Vigilus warlord trait for a tank ace, although I don't think that works as Vigilus traits are not from true Warlord units. You could still use them to get some extra "warlord" traits though. So 2 aces and whatever Vigilus stuff you want.

Thinking about it, losing your Warlord trait may actually be a good thing. It makes your Warlord less of a target, and also reduces the loss if they die.

Well, with the scion strat and field commander we can buy 2 warlord traits, with the caveats that one has to be a vigilus trait and the other has to go on a scion so we can have a warlord with no trait and 4 other models with traits instead (for 3cp admittedly). Which way is best is probably gonna be down to the kind of army you're running, tank heavy will probably favour 2 aces and a scion/vigilus trait, whereas more scion/balances heavy lists probably want 1 ace, native warlord trait and another warlord trait (probably a scion one) on a tempestor.

Given new stratagems and new point values, what's the new look of Bullgryns and Ogryns? Caveat: I'm not looking to be talked out of them altogether, as I love the models and was about to build a squad of each when the changes came along... mine is more a question of how-to rather than whether-to.

 MacPhail wrote:
Given new stratagems and new point values, what's the new look of Bullgryns and Ogryns? Caveat: I'm not looking to be talked out of them altogether, as I love the models and was about to build a squad of each when the changes came along... mine is more a question of how-to rather than whether-to.

Im interested to see if Furious Charge is much use for Bullgryns (it totatally works, Bullgryns still have the Ogryn keyword). Extra mortal wounds are always nice, even if it is only likely to be a handful of them.

So I realized that, besides the obvious choice of a Punisher Russ / Commander, the new Monster Hunters regimental doctrine is actually really nasty on Wyverns and gives them a dual role as anti-infantry and anti-monster.

It is significantly cheaper than a Punisher Russ, much longer range, ignores LOS, and gets innate full rerolls to wound to score more Mortal Wounds.

Each Wyvern averages around 2-3 Mortals plus a handful of forced saves.

A trio of them would be a serious threat to Riptides, Princes etc. in addition to shredding light infantry. And they can do this at a safer range from our backfield.

I bet we will be seeing a lot more Riptides soon.

slobulous wrote:
So I realized that, besides the obvious choice of a Punisher Russ / Commander, the new Monster Hunters regimental doctrine is actually really nasty on Wyverns and gives them a dual role as anti-infantry and anti-monster.

It is significantly cheaper than a Punisher Russ, much longer range, ignores LOS, and gets innate full rerolls to wound to score more Mortal Wounds.

Each Wyvern averages around 2-3 Mortals plus a handful of forced saves.

A trio of them would be a serious threat to Riptides, Princes etc. in addition to shredding light infantry. And they can do this at a safer range from our backfield.

I bet we will be seeing a lot more Riptides soon.

Riptides will just savior protocol and the mortal wound would be lost.

 Dynas wrote:


Riptides will just savior protocol and the mortal wound would be lost.

Ummm everyone knows you kill the drones first before you start shooting the suits...Thats how you fight Tau

Which the Wyverns are great at removing the drones first as well.

I'd like to point out that the 3 Wyverns are only 327 pts. Like barely 50pts more than one fully loaded riptide You still have almost 1700pts of firepower in the list remaining