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I'd be loathe to pick a trait that only applies to monsters. There are far too many forces that simply don't have access to them. I know there are armies without vehicles too, but at least with a vehicle-only trait you have a decent chance of seeing them.

I guess if you are in a tailor-friendly situation then it can be decent. For example, if you are doing a Tyranid campaign it would make sense to have a monster hunting force.

 Trickstick wrote:
I'd be loathe to pick a trait that only applies to monsters. There are far too many forces that simply don't have access to them. I know there are armies without vehicles too, but at least with a vehicle-only trait you have a decent chance of seeing them.

I guess if you are in a tailor-friendly situation then it can be decent. For example, if you are doing a Tyranid campaign it would make sense to have a monster hunting force.

It is indeed situational. It will mostly be strong against Nids, Tau, and some Chaos and perhaps Dark Eldar such as Talos.

But I think Tau will be much more prevalent in the meta now with their new rules

What I am envisioning is a list with 3 detachments, each detachment using the new Doctrines that best fit the units in that detachment.


The detachments I would use would be:

Monster Hunters / Jury Rigging for the wyverns

Gunnery Experts / Spotter Detail for 30" range Demolisher Russes with reroll # of shots

And lastly, Gunnery Experts and Jury Rigging for a Vigilus Artillery detachment with Basilisks.

Sprinkle in screening and support units to taste.

Don't forget Riptides aren't Monsters.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget Riptides aren't Monsters.

Yes they are?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget Riptides aren't Monsters.

Riptides have been classified as Monsters / Monstrous Creatures since the model came out, Across multiple editions of the game over more than a decade.

In fact, their Monstrous Creature status used to give their melee attacks AP2 which negated all armor saves back in that edition.

slobulous wrote:

 Dynas wrote:


Riptides will just savior protocol and the mortal wound would be lost.

Ummm everyone knows you kill the drones first before you start shooting the suits...Thats how you fight Tau

Which the Wyverns are great at removing the drones first as well.

I'd like to point out that the 3 Wyverns are only 327 pts. Like barely 50pts more than one fully loaded riptide You still have almost 1700pts of firepower in the list remaining

You say that like it's so easy. Shield drones with that 4++/5+++ are brutal to try and kill and it feels like it's more work to kill them directly than what they're shielding directly sometimes. I mean heck, something like a Punisher cannon is only really killing 4-5 a volley if you're lucky.

Riptides have the *Battlesuit* keyword, not the *Monster* keyword, if I recall correctly.

Sort of like how Crisis Suits aren't *infantry* and therefore don't get cover

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Riptides have the *Battlesuit* keyword, not the *Monster* keyword, if I recall correctly.

Incorrect, riptide battlesuits have both the 'Battlesuit' AND 'Monster' keywords. If unsure it is best not to post at all, just saying.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Riptides have the *Battlesuit* keyword, not the *Monster* keyword, if I recall correctly.

Sort of like how Crisis Suits aren't *infantry* and therefore don't get cover

I would agree with you that Riptides aren't Monsters, except for the fact that they are Monsters.

I feel silly debating a fact that is blatantly obvious by looking at the codex entry. Don't you?

slobulous wrote:

 Dynas wrote:


Riptides will just savior protocol and the mortal wound would be lost.

Ummm everyone knows you kill the drones first before you start shooting the suits...Thats how you fight Tau

Which the Wyverns are great at removing the drones first as well.

I'd like to point out that the 3 Wyverns are only 327 pts. Like barely 50pts more than one fully loaded riptide You still have almost 1700pts of firepower in the list remaining

True, but the wyverns are getting any orders like cadian mortar teams rerolling misses. You aren't getting the benefit of the moral wounds either.
Those 3 wyverns hitting on 4s are gonna kill 3.5 drones on average, if you shoot twice with one from vigilus your gonna kill 4.67 drones. Most Tau list can lose 3.5-4.5 drones a turn and still function.

Lets say somehow you survive to turn 6 with all 3, and manage to kill 3.5 on average, you killed 21 drones over the course of the game. Thats 327 points across the entire game used to kill 210 points of drones.
Ill take that trade.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Riptides have the *Battlesuit* keyword, not the *Monster* keyword, if I recall correctly.

Sort of like how Crisis Suits aren't *infantry* and therefore don't get cover

They are MONSTER and BATTLESUIT, but not VEHICLES.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Riptides have the *Battlesuit* keyword, not the *Monster* keyword

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Shield drones with that 4++/5+++ are brutal to try and kill and it feels like it's more work to kill them directly than what they're shielding directly sometimes. I mean heck, something like a Punisher cannon is only really killing 4-5 a volley if you're lucky.

 Dynas wrote:

Those 3 wyverns hitting on 4s are gonna kill 3.5 drones on average

Yikes guys....Like, wow....

There is some serious misinformation being posted here. It seems this thread is filled with people that have not done any research nor know how to do math-hammer to obtain expected averages.

I guess I could try to further explain but it's looking kind of futile. I think I'll be leaving now.

slobulous wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Riptides have the *Battlesuit* keyword, not the *Monster* keyword

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Shield drones with that 4++/5+++ are brutal to try and kill and it feels like it's more work to kill them directly than what they're shielding directly sometimes. I mean heck, something like a Punisher cannon is only really killing 4-5 a volley if you're lucky.

 Dynas wrote:

Those 3 wyverns hitting on 4s are gonna kill 3.5 drones on average

Yikes guys....Like, wow....

There is some serious misinformation being posted here. It seems this thread is filled with people that have not done any research nor know how to do math-hammer to obtain expected averages.

I guess I could try to further explain but it's looking kind of futile. I think I'll be leaving now.

If you know more about Tau please enlighten me, I'm being completely serious, I will take any advice I can get. Because I've currently got a Tau player with some sort of FW drones that have a 4+ invuln and a 5+ fnp and if I find out he's cheating he's getting punched. Right now if I shoot a target, he savior protocols on a 2+, and regardless of whether it's a lasgun or a shadowsword wound it can only kill one drone. Except oh wait, he can use a 5+ FNP on savior protocol and not even lose the drone. Because it doesn't matter how much damage I do per shot, it converts to a single MW because whoever wrote the Tau codex needs to play against that and know what suffering he unleashed into the world. I try shooting the shield drones directly, and now they get a 4+ invuln and a 5+ fnp which means for every 10 wounds I get on them I'm getting maybe 3 kills. And that's if he rolls average. I've had two full volleys of Reaper chaincannons with VoTL hitting on 2's rerolling and wounding on 2's kill 1 drone per volley, and many times that weren't far off. I know part of that is luck but when you watch it happen every game and you know your opponent isn't fudging dice you just sort of go crazy after a while.

As far as I can tell, shield drones are the most busted thing in this game mechanically and if I ever meet the person who wrote their rules I might actually chew them out. Unless I screwed my math up, a tank commander rerolling ones with it's punisher turret kills between 6-7 drones total (ignoring sponsons and hull bolters just for ease of math), which would make my claim of 3-4 dead per volley correct. I really want to be wrong here, if you know a way to beat these damn things please tell me. Because best I can tell there is nothing in the game that efficiently kills drones, except maybe FRFSRF lasgun fire.

Shield drones are literal aids to play against. you focus stupid amounts of firepower into clearing them and bracketing the riptide they're protecting then the damn thing pops a strat and shoots at full BS anyway. They're very effective at what they do but they're horrible to play against, you're only real way around them is hoping the tau player fails their 2+ to pass the wound off.

I've had the most success with clearing drones with laguns and heavy bolters while you put the firepower that matters into the rest of the list to try and cut down the number of markerlights they can throw out/objectives they can cap.

Wow that's a lot of salt about shield drones. Well, as a Tau player I can give you some advice for playing against drones beyond the usual "shoot the drones first." For starters, read both the tactical drones datasheet and the latest FAQ since SP gets changed almost every FAQ. The basic shield drone has a 4++ and 5+++. FW drones are mostly overcosted across the board so the only ones you will ever see are usually technical drones which just repair suits. Once you know what they actually do, it should be a lot easier to keep from getting tilted and as a result less likely to misplay against them.

You've got 3 options for playing against drone heavy lists.

1. Forcing SP Rolls by targeting the suits:
Yes, SP turns any wound into a single mortal wound which is incredibly strong against things like lascannons with low ROF, but it also means they are significantly less effective against high strength, high ROF, and low/medium AP. The standard battle cannon and basilisks are pretty good at forcing lots of SP rolls and the Tau player will bleed through drones much more quickly while more shots will slip past the drones. This gets compounded even further in the morale phase because of the drones base leadership of 5 although ethereals can provide leadership much like commisars do without the blam reroll.

2. Targeting the drones directly: A T4 unit with 4++, 5+++ is incredibly tough for 10pts a pop, but you have to remember the points add up quickly. A typical list runs about 30-40 drones so that is a significant chunk of their list. For actually killing the drones, high ROF with 0 ap is ideal for getting through the invuln while multi damage drastically reduces the effectiveness of the FNP since they still only have 1 wound. Just like before, LD5 means that drone units are going to take significant losses to morale without an ethereal or 2 CP to autopass. Even if the drones are hidden out of LOS, mortars and basilisks can put a dent in the drones from safety since your non-LOS significantly out ranges Tau non-LOS.

3. Ignore the suits and the drones. Kill the infantry first
Pretty self explanatory. Infantry are t3 and heavy bolters etc will make quick work of them denying the Tau player board control. Without board control, you will outscore them while making it very risky to hunt your backline arty. Coldstars aren't cheap and losing one is a significant especially given the Commander limit. Enforcers obey the standard deep strike rules and typically have 18" range with CiB's so you can screen accordingly. If they are using a custom Sept it may be extended out to 22" with Hybridized weaponry. Crisis suits are no different.

As a side note, learn which units have fly and which do not:
Broadsides do not have fly like almost every other suit so tagging them in melee generally shuts them down if you can survive overwatch. Most of the suits have fly so tying them up in melee generally doesn't work. Do not charge a Y'Vahra from LOS. If it can overwatch it will end you.

Hope this helps. The new PA book might shift the meta a bit, but generally speaking these tactics work against non-mechanized tau. Mech tau cannot use SP for vehicles so blast away.
Edit: added some spacing so its easier to read

Regarding the drones SP I have an understanding question:
As far as I understand, SP is triggered, when the wound roll is passed and can than stop the attack sequence. When I understand the deathstrike datasheet right, there is never a wound roll made, as it just causes mortal wounds for every HIT. Does that mean, that SP can not tank the death strike missile?

Pyroalchi wrote:
Regarding the drones SP I have an understanding question:
As far as I understand, SP is triggered, when the wound roll is passed and can than stop the attack sequence. When I understand the deathstrike datasheet right, there is never a wound roll made, as it just causes mortal wounds for every HIT. Does that mean, that SP can not tank the death strike missile?

Correct. SP can block mortal wounds but only if they are associated with an attack that passed the wound roll. So a deathstrike missile cannot be intercepted at all, but a ratling wound roll of 6+ can be intercepted with a single SP. Targeting suits with mortal wounds is extremely effective.

Direct firing drones also runs into major issue in los. Unless you can shoot indirect opponent just puts them behind terrain. Drones are easy to hide. So frfsrf lasguns etc are out. Wyverns, mortars etc can work at least.

But unlike say grots they don't need to be at front or in sight

At last, 2 years and a half later, they have fixed the Tempestus Doctrine problem and now I can use my bullgryns in my tempestus detachment without losing my special rules!

Bless be GW!

After reading this Psychic Awakening book, I have realized that most of the improvements both at least for Tau and Imperial Guard are for the worst units, or the worse weapon options (For example, railcannon hammerheads or broadsides). Theres a couple of competitive gems there but in general I don't see them improve that much the overall power of the faction, we aren't marines afterall. is more of a sidegrade, improving bad or underperforming units.
The level of that improvement... eh... nobody is gonna spent a relic slot to make a unit of pathfinders have their markerlights be assault (As they always should had been) instead of heavy.

more of a sidegrade, improving bad or underperforming units.

GW is a fashion retail sales company. Like any retail company, if a product line underperforms, they adjust the product for better market fit or pull it or use marketing to improve product appeal. GW adjusts underperforming (thus underselling) product lines to boost sales. Simultaneously they please their audience by appearing to gift them more toys or make existing toys more popular, thus improving their brand image. Veteran customers that already own the product line won't buy more unless there is a reason to keep buying the same products, so they bring out new flavours and styles (custom regiments, buffs) and push old popular products that everyone now owns out of style (not buffing good units, nerfs) so the audience feels good about replacing or augmenting their 'wardrobe'.

There's no need to detract from what GW does - every retail company does this. But there's no mystery why.

4 morw points is a small price to pay for our new mortars.

+1 to hit and wound for 1 CP is huge.

Combined squads is also only 1CP

Chadians can do 6D6 with rerolling to hit snd potentially rerolling 1s to would with laurels.

 schadenfreude wrote:
4 morw points is a small price to pay for our new mortars.

+1 to hit and wound for 1 CP is huge.

Combined squads is also only 1CP

Chadians can do 6D6 with rerolling to hit snd potentially rerolling 1s to would with laurels.

Consolidate Squads only works on Infantry Squads (the data sheet on page 93) not on other infantry units. So your heavy weapons squad is only firing 3d6 mortar shots.

Those of you that use Baneblade chassis tanks (outside of full-on super-heavy detachments), I ask you how you use your Baneblade?

Are you taking it to supplement the mainstay strength of your army, or are you using it cover a weakness of your army?

For example, let’s say you have an artillery focused army. Are you taking a Banesword to strengthen your artillery core, or would you rather take a Stormlord to rush in and halt the enemy advance while your artillery pounds away at the enemy ?

I like to take the shadowsword so i can absolutely yeet enemy vehicles. Can't say i've taken it lately as I've mostly played smaller point values but it demolishes anything without an invun and provided you can roll somewhat decently for damage even the stuff with an invun won't like the wounds that slip through.

That said they cost so much that they kinda become the mainstay of whatever role you're having them, they're not very competitive however as tank commanders beat them on pretty much every metric.

When I take a Baneblade its because I don’t care about being efficient and just want to blow stuff up with the biggest, killiest machine Guard can throw down. Vostroyan with every upgrade in a detachment with Yarrick and a Salamander command vehicle for rerollable 2+ shots. The rest of the army is just there to support it.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

slobulous wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Riptides have the *Battlesuit* keyword, not the *Monster* keyword

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Shield drones with that 4++/5+++ are brutal to try and kill and it feels like it's more work to kill them directly than what they're shielding directly sometimes. I mean heck, something like a Punisher cannon is only really killing 4-5 a volley if you're lucky.

 Dynas wrote:

Those 3 wyverns hitting on 4s are gonna kill 3.5 drones on average

Yikes guys....Like, wow....

There is some serious misinformation being posted here. It seems this thread is filled with people that have not done any research nor know how to do math-hammer to obtain expected averages.

I guess I could try to further explain but it's looking kind of futile. I think I'll be leaving now.

If you know more about Tau please enlighten me, I'm being completely serious, I will take any advice I can get. Because I've currently got a Tau player with some sort of FW drones that have a 4+ invuln and a 5+ fnp and if I find out he's cheating he's getting punched. Right now if I shoot a target, he savior protocols on a 2+, and regardless of whether it's a lasgun or a shadowsword wound it can only kill one drone. Except oh wait, he can use a 5+ FNP on savior protocol and not even lose the drone. Because it doesn't matter how much damage I do per shot, it converts to a single MW because whoever wrote the Tau codex needs to play against that and know what suffering he unleashed into the world. I try shooting the shield drones directly, and now they get a 4+ invuln and a 5+ fnp which means for every 10 wounds I get on them I'm getting maybe 3 kills. And that's if he rolls average. I've had two full volleys of Reaper chaincannons with VoTL hitting on 2's rerolling and wounding on 2's kill 1 drone per volley, and many times that weren't far off. I know part of that is luck but when you watch it happen every game and you know your opponent isn't fudging dice you just sort of go crazy after a while.

As far as I can tell, shield drones are the most busted thing in this game mechanically and if I ever meet the person who wrote their rules I might actually chew them out. Unless I screwed my math up, a tank commander rerolling ones with it's punisher turret kills between 6-7 drones total (ignoring sponsons and hull bolters just for ease of math), which would make my claim of 3-4 dead per volley correct. I really want to be wrong here, if you know a way to beat these damn things please tell me. Because best I can tell there is nothing in the game that efficiently kills drones, except maybe FRFSRF lasgun fire.

No, how you described it is how it works. Its not FW drones, they are just basic shield drones. You are not getting cheated. Without Shield Drones/savior protocol mechanic tau would be like wood tier army, they would die so fast. You have to use a lot of shots to get them down, AP 0 is fine, unless you have something that can ignore invuls.

 Badablack wrote:
When I take a Baneblade its because I don’t care about being efficient and just want to blow stuff up with the biggest, killiest machine Guard can throw down. Vostroyan with every upgrade in a detachment with Yarrick and a Salamander command vehicle for rerollable 2+ shots. The rest of the army is just there to support it.

I've done stuff like that in pick-up games at my FLGS 40K night. Throw every possible upgrade on something and just see how much havoc it can cause before it goes down.

So are 'Full Payload' support Tank Aces going to just be plain meta now? Hammer of Sunderance is good simply for the fixed damage and now you can have 2 more that fire indirectly at str 9 and AP 3?

Just seems like such an obvious firepower upgrade.

I do like the Full Payload upgrade on a manticore, the more shoots are amazing and sometimes ap-2 is enought. There is also the new strat to give them +1 to hit which is not available to Basilisks

Babar_babar wrote:
I do like the Full Payload upgrade on a manticore, the more shoots are amazing and sometimes ap-2 is enought. There is also the new strat to give them +1 to hit which is not available to Basilisks

Yeah but Basilisk have access to 'Aerial Spotters' (at a higher CP cost though).


Either way I am finding it hard not to have 2 'Full Support' Tank Aces whether Manticore or Basilisk.

Are the Warlord traits really worth literally giving up 50% damage increase for an artillery piece?

Maxzero wrote:
Are the Warlord traits really worth literally giving up 50% damage increase for an artillery piece?

I think that some of the Russ ace abilities are probably worth it. Putting the -1 damage on your Sunderance TC is pretty nice. Or a shadowsword with the perma-cover, as cover is hard to get on such a large model.