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Dukeofstuff wrote:
Don't use the grenade strat with your scions -- a ten man barebones scion squad precision dropping with FRFSRF will fire 37 lasgun shots, which are all s3 and can be boosted to s4 (well, 36 of them) while the grenades are a lacklust average of 35 shots of s3 and can't be boosted. If you are lambda lions, then s4/-3/1 x 36 is always better than s3/-1/1 x 35, and that's ignoring the hslp shot from the sarge (he can throw a grenade if you are really fixated on it.)

How do you get the basic hotshot lasguns up to strength 4 like you say?

 ph34r wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Don't use the grenade strat with your scions -- a ten man barebones scion squad precision dropping with FRFSRF will fire 37 lasgun shots, which are all s3 and can be boosted to s4 (well, 36 of them) while the grenades are a lacklust average of 35 shots of s3 and can't be boosted. If you are lambda lions, then s4/-3/1 x 36 is always better than s3/-1/1 x 35, and that's ignoring the hslp shot from the sarge (he can throw a grenade if you are really fixated on it.)

How do you get the basic hotshot lasguns up to strength 4 like you say?

The "Point-Blank Efficacy" stratagem from Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good.

 Colonel Cross wrote:


Tallarn regimental doctrine will be pretty much hot garbage until it gets revamped if all vehicle keyword units ignore penalties to hit with heavy weapons ...

Their regimental order is gonna be busted as hell with obscuring terrain however. Park your tank commander just behind the terrain piece, out of LOS. In your turn move him 6" forward onto the terrain piece so he becomes visible and can see/shoot through it. Pop the order, shoot then move back 6" off the terrain piece and become invisible again as you're no longer in los.

 gbghg wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:


Tallarn regimental doctrine will be pretty much hot garbage until it gets revamped if all vehicle keyword units ignore penalties to hit with heavy weapons ...

Their regimental order is gonna be busted as hell with obscuring terrain however. Park your tank commander just behind the terrain piece, out of LOS. In your turn move him 6" forward onto the terrain piece so he becomes visible and can see/shoot through it. Pop the order, shoot then move back 6" off the terrain piece and become invisible again as you're no longer in los.

So pretty much back to the old Tau trick of move-shoot-jump.

I'm finding more reasons to run my Punisher tanks it seems... Screen against hormagaunts for my tanks? No, my tanks are the screen!

Cleric wrote:
I'm finding more reasons to run my Punisher tanks it seems... Screen against hormagaunts for my tanks? No, my tanks are the screen!

Well, if they don't bring back the Annihilator in the Forgeworld Codex, then I'll be replacing mine with Punishers.

Also glad I haven't glued the turret on my Demolisher.

Is it a pretty safe bet at this point that GW will FAQ the tallarn doctrine for regular vehicles? Maybe give them the tallarn super heavy rules?

I too am thinking of the possibilities for tallarn tank commanders. It's just hard to give up the gunnery experts/brutal strength/cadian order for the rerolls on the turret weapon! I think the tallarn order could really help with the fragility of the leman russ chassis though. Decisions decisions.

I really hope Tallarn gets a hotfix for that. Valhallans will need a look at too (morale) and Mordians might get free overwatch? I can only hope.

Speaking of hope, I hope with the points increases, conscripts will be cheaper than infantry squads model per model again. I'd love to run them as a screen or for holding an important objective (backed up by a commissar and some Bullgryn)

Conscripts just need to be 6+ save with trash leadership, autoguns, and zero ability to receive Orders.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Conscripts just need to be 6+ save with trash leadership, autoguns, and zero ability to receive Orders.

Nah, they should have the same equipment as regular Guardsmen but suffer in the areas of training and LD. So pretty much the same but maybe have a -1 to the new combat attrition tests.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Conscripts just need to be 6+ save with trash leadership, autoguns, and zero ability to receive Orders.

Nah, they should have the same equipment as regular Guardsmen but suffer in the areas of training and LD. So pretty much the same but maybe have a -1 to the new combat attrition tests.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaah...no. That time is long gone. Until the Guard book is rebuilt from the ground up? They need to make Conscripts viable as nothing but meaty speed bumps.

6+ save, absolute trash stats, Militarum Auxilia keywords(because they're not a Regimental unit in the first damn place), autoguns, etc.

And frankly, Conscripts as a concept don't add anything to the entirety of the army. They're really only in the book to placate the people who think Guard are nothing but "SEND IN THE NEXT WAVE!" pseudo-Stalingrad nonsense.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Conscripts just need to be 6+ save with trash leadership, autoguns, and zero ability to receive Orders.

Nah, they should have the same equipment as regular Guardsmen but suffer in the areas of training and LD. So pretty much the same but maybe have a -1 to the new combat attrition tests.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaah...no. That time is long gone. Until the Guard book is rebuilt from the ground up? They need to make Conscripts viable as nothing but meaty speed bumps.

6+ save, absolute trash stats, Militarum Auxilia keywords(because they're not a Regimental unit in the first damn place), autoguns, etc.

And frankly, Conscripts as a concept don't add anything to the entirety of the army. They're really only in the book to placate the people who think Guard are nothing but "SEND IN THE NEXT WAVE!" pseudo-Stalingrad nonsense.

I'd like to see what happens if you told a Cadian Whiteshield s/he wasn't a Cadian.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaah...no. That time is long gone. Until the Guard book is rebuilt from the ground up? They need to make Conscripts viable as nothing but meaty speed bumps.

6+ save, absolute trash stats, Militarum Auxilia keywords(because they're not a Regimental unit in the first damn place), autoguns, etc.

And frankly, Conscripts as a concept don't add anything to the entirety of the army. They're really only in the book to placate the people who think Guard are nothing but "SEND IN THE NEXT WAVE!" pseudo-Stalingrad nonsense.

Guard regiments comprise of a huge range of different doctrines, from elite special forces all the way down to meat for the grinder. I don't see the problem with having cheap conscripts available in the list. "Pseudo-Stalingrad nonsense", as you put it, is a fun and thematic army style.

I don't understand why they would get a 6+ save. They have the same standard issue kit as everyone else. They don't make a lesser form of flak armour to give to new recruits, then re-issue proper armour later. That would be odd. Also, Conscripts would mostly be considered part of a regiment. They are mostly just Guardsmen that are newly raised or have had reduced training for other reasons. The ones who survive their first battle would probably be considered true Guardsmen anyway.

Of course, you could always make a regiment where all these things are wrong. That's the joy of Guard really, anything can be acceptable in your own little sector of the galaxy.

Read what Conscripts have been fluffed as since Robin Cruddace's book.
In case you don't want to hunt the quote down, here it is:

Codex: Imperial Guard 2008 wrote:

Spoiler:

In dire situations, a world may be forced to increase its tithe and raise additional regiments to match some overwhelming threat. A planet may be forced to bring forward its annual conscription, recruiting troops who would otherwise be deemed too young, or have not had the time to complete basic training. These youths are officially designated as probitors. In practice, they are given a variety of nicknames, but the most common moniker is 'Whiteshield'. This name stems from the fact that they show no regimental, company or platoon markings until they have earned the right to do so on the battlefield. The only insignia these recruits display are white helmet stripes. Eager to prove their courage, these reckless cadets enter the fray. Those few that survive might one day be lucky enough to call themselves 'Guardsmen'--far more than a simple promotion, this is a rite of passage amongst the probitors that marks their entry into adulthood.

The Doctrines book that preceded it had zero fluff on what a "Conscript Infantry Platoon" was, but did directly copy/paste the "Youth Army Platoon" from Codex: Eye of Terror.

Compare that Robin Cruddace bit to this:

Codex Eye of Terror 2003 wrote:

Spoiler:

The Cadian Youth Armies are teenage cadets. They spend much of their time training at a castellum in the wilderness, drilling under the supervision of Shock Troopers and fighting mock battles with other youth armies. This prepares thems uperbly for life in the Shock Troop regiments. There is no hesitation in testing the youth armies in the crucible of battle and every Cadet yearns to be recognised for his courage and recruited into the shock troops. Serving shock troops sometimes refer to the Youth Armies as 'whiteshields' because of the probationary Cadian badge they wear.

Want a bit more "compare and contrast"?
Youth Army Platoon/Conscript Platoons were 2-5 squads per Platoon which were a 1:1 ratio with each normal Infantry Platoon taken. They had lasguns and flak armor because they were actually training with and equipped by the Cadian Interior Guard(another thing that Cruddace's book refluffed into oblivion) with a Flamer or Grenade Launcher per squad and a Heavy Bolter/Autocannon/Missile Launcher per squad.
Conscripts in the Cruddace book...none of those options. They're taken as part of an Infantry Platoon and literally have an option for Commander Chenkov's "Send in the Next Wave" special rule to be added to them at 75 points.

So forgive me for not thinking that Conscripts are something that should be part of the main Guard force anymore or that they should be equipped the same as Guardsmen at large. These aren't the days of the Cadian Youth Armies. The Cruddace-headed book butchered that fluff, turning a 'signature unit' of Cadia into a trash concept that literally was just there for Chenkov's nonsense to be showcased.

If they want to keep Conscripts as "Guardsman Lite"? Then what the hell is the point of Guardsmen or Veterans at this juncture? This isn't Ye Olde Days where people weren't number crunching every little thing on forums or just copy/pasting netlists into things.

There needs to be a viable place for each of these units to exist. Points alone will not change this from being a fact.

I share the sentiment. I appreciate the humble conscript as they fit nicely when building less "professional" regiments. Think of tribal warriors that have just been handed lasguns and flak vest and experience military command structures for the first time. And if they are in the defense on their own planet, why should the guard only rely on those soldiers that have completed their training.

What I could see would be to make the "standard equipment kit" an upgrade. So something like T3, 6+, Autoguns for 4 points, 5+ and lasguns for 5 (assuming normal guardsmen are at 6)

Send in the next wave should have special unarmored conscripts and every other man gets a gun.

Codex: Imperial Guard 2008 wrote:
[...]This name stems from the fact that they show no regimental, company or platoon markings until they have earned the right to do so on the battlefield.[...]

Of course they're part of the regiments, but as rookies, they're simply not yet allowed to show that on the battlefield. In my opinion, they should basically be guardsmen with a lack of skill, morale and specialized gear, just like they are now. They're not a viable option right now, but that's because GW overreacted a little bit with all the nerfs they received since codex release.

Personally I think it'd be really cool for them to bring back penal legion squads like they had in 5th ed, purely for the cool factor. Give them some rules for sneaking and backstabbing/fighting dirty etc.

I do wonder if they'll move veterans back to troops, as they seem to be not a commonly used unit.

I'm probably jumping the gun here but couldn't see any mention of "rule of three" or "boots on the ground" in the leaked rules.
Air cavalry scions might be a bit more viable if that's the case, no worries about not being able field enough HQ's for order saturation and although still probably not worth their points aircraft will not be as easily ignored in favour of blasting infantry off the table, especially if they have a little more damage output from no movement penalty to heavy weapons.

ragnorack1 wrote:
I'm probably jumping the gun here but couldn't see any mention of "rule of three" or "boots on the ground" in the leaked rules.
Air cavalry scions might be a bit more viable if that's the case, no worries about not being able field enough HQ's for order saturation and although still probably not worth their points aircraft will not be as easily ignored in favour of blasting infantry off the table, especially if they have a little more damage output from no movement penalty to heavy weapons.

Rule of 3 still exists.

Damn it! Ah well

Big 9E rumor for guard.

The space marine leaks have melta guns going down in cost to the same price as plasma in 9th

I did love my old melta + shotgun vets. Had a real engineer look to them, as I gave them all the hwt backpacks and extra equipment.

I read on one of the goonhammer articles that Prepared Positions has been removed. If true, I feel like this is a shame for Imperial Guard, even if we are more likely now to get first turn with a straight roll off. It was a very fluffy strategem for us too, with guardsmen hunkering down in trenches or catachans waiting in ambush etc.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

ragnorack1 wrote:
I'm probably jumping the gun here but couldn't see any mention of "rule of three" or "boots on the ground" in the leaked rules.
Air cavalry scions might be a bit more viable if that's the case, no worries about not being able field enough HQ's for order saturation and although still probably not worth their points aircraft will not be as easily ignored in favour of blasting infantry off the table, especially if they have a little more damage output from no movement penalty to heavy weapons.

Rule of 3 still exists.

Just to be pedantic:


No, now Rule of 3 exists.



"Rule of 3" was never the correct designation, just the most common occurrence. In a 1000 or < point game you only got 2, in a > 2,000 game you could take 4.

Points are fun! I linked the Guard timestamp. Not even listened to it all yet, just heard Guardsmen/Conscripts = 5pts and thought I would pass it on.

p.s. do we start a 9th edition thread at some point? Is it best to do that on official release day, to keep all the random rumour stuff locked up in here when it dies?

I listened through it and tried to take notes. Overall not too bad Price increases with some reaaaaally odd decisions.
The one most strange were the Leman Russ weapons. After saying that blast weapons would go up in price because they are now so good against hordes they left Demolisher, Eradicator Executioner at the same price, made the Battlecannon 2 points cheaper and increased the Punisher by 5 and the Exterminator by 13 (!!!). I mean... really? The Exterminator? A Twin Autocannon now costs 150% as much as two single autocannons?

It's just... why? Am I blind and the Exterminator suddenly got some rules that make it tremendously powerful? Or am I going deaf and have misheard?

 Pyroalchi wrote:
It's just... why? Am I blind and the Exterminator suddenly got some rules that make it tremendously powerful? Or am I going deaf and have misheard?

It can fire in melee, which is nice. Probably still better to take a punisher though.

Ok... fair enough. But as you said, the Punisher is likely still better.
I think I'm just a bit bummed because I really like the look of the Exterminator while being aware that it was pretty subpar in 8th mathematically. So I hoped the price changes would make it at least slightly competetive in 9th. Guess I was wrong.

Vulture with punishers is now 225? Ouch. I know everything went up, but it was already pretty expensive.