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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g9NIG7ny9aBe9ruaW5U8Iwgm4KBAB3VNAe7As7HBnUk/htmlview?pru=AAABc2wRidE*8-YlAhAK9rET8BkZ04OAfA#gid=0

The point jump for Leman Russ hurts a lot. 165 points for a barebones LR Demo is not nice.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/hqdkgj/astra_militarum_imperial_guard_forge_world_units/

Medusa Carriage battery for 95 points with a indirect 49" range Demo cannon is okay.

Sentinels seem to be doing alright. No increase, only weapon increases to worry about. Scout flamers only +1 point too. Plus no more restrictions on move and shoot.

I can see 3x sentinels being in every army now, to unlock brigades.

Bullgryns barely went up.
Ogryns stayed the same.
Guardsmen barely went up.
Priests barely went up.

*Laughs in close combat*

 MinscS2 wrote:
Bullgryns barely went up.
Ogryns stayed the same.
Guardsmen barely went up.
Priests barely went up.

*Laughs in close combat*

Regular Russ got mauled. Might have no choice.

Plasms Scions and Valks got through fairly unscathed as well.

Melee guard + Scion drop force?

Would contest objectives very well.

So, plasma seems to be the king of infantry squad weapons now. 5 pts, same cost as everything else? I can see meltas maybe being useful in some applications, but who is going to take a grenade launcher or flamer?

Also, what do people think of 2pt sergeant bolters? My go to this edition has been bolter/plasma tallarn, but 2pts seems harder to justify then 1pt.

They really want to kill off the idea of sergeants with rifle-class ranged weapons instead of pistols is about all I think of that.

 Kanluwen wrote:
They really want to kill off the idea of sergeants with rifle-class ranged weapons instead of pistols is about all I think of that.

You see, that is where we differ. I don't think there is a motive. I think they created some sort of general guidelines for point changes, and just fed them through. So many things have gone to nearest 5pts, or had 5pt increases across the board. I just think 1pt weapons went to 2pts generally or something. All hail the mighty algorithm!.

Oh I believe there's a motive. It's the same motive that keeps Guardsmen at the same points as Conscripts.

Cruddace is a big part of it. He's always been an advocate of patterning the Guard after WWI stuff.

 Trickstick wrote:
So, plasma seems to be the king of infantry squad weapons now. 5 pts, same cost as everything else? I can see meltas maybe being useful in some applications, but who is going to take a grenade launcher or flamer?

Also, what do people think of 2pt sergeant bolters? My go to this edition has been bolter/plasma tallarn, but 2pts seems harder to justify then 1pt.

Plasma Scions + custom regiment 18" RF range and 4+ save infantry core with more Plasma.

Some Indirect fire: Basi double shot, Full payload Manticore and some 95 point Medusa Batteries?

Maxzero wrote:
Plasma Scions + custom regiment 18" RF range and 4+ save infantry core with more Plasma.

I don't think scions can use custom traits.

 Trickstick wrote:

Maxzero wrote:
Plasma Scions + custom regiment 18" RF range and 4+ save infantry core with more Plasma.

I don't think scions can use custom traits.

They cannot. Anyone who attempts to use them is a cheating git.

 Trickstick wrote:

Maxzero wrote:
Plasma Scions + custom regiment 18" RF range and 4+ save infantry core with more Plasma.

I don't think scions can use custom traits.

I mean 2 Battlions. Once Scion Plasma and 1 custom regiment.

Interesting thing though: if I heard correctly Melta Special Weapons Squads went from 57 to 45. And Plasma SWS at least stayed at 45.


@ Trickstick

but who is going to take a grenade launcher or flamer?

*sigh*, I will keep them. I liked them in 8th because of their look even though they seemed pretty subpar at 3points vs. Plasma/Melta. But you are right, from a competetive point of view it's hard to see why they got 66% more expensive while the most effective Special weapons both got drops.

Maxzero wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
Bullgryns barely went up.
Ogryns stayed the same.
Guardsmen barely went up.
Priests barely went up.

*Laughs in close combat*

Regular Russ got mauled. Might have no choice.

Plasms Scions and Valks got through fairly unscathed as well.

Melee guard + Scion drop force?

Would contest objectives very well.

The Russ kind of had to increase. Your going to flame broil anything that tags them now, which was their biggest weakness lol. You can actually field an armored column now and not really need screeners. 107 was absolutely stupid before if I am honest.

FAQ has been updated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Tallarn is simply advancing makes heavy into assault. Ok I guess but I'm not attached to it.

Surprised they didn't change Mordians to being able to overwatch for free tbh. They were already a regimental trait that almost no one took outside of flavour reasons, being unique in having army-wide overwatch and hitting on 5's while doing so would have at least made them worth considering at some level. Now they're even worse than when they started off at.

Tallarn changes kinda suck, at least tanks wise. Are they still worth taking for the relic/strat now that outflanking is a generic rule?

 Trickstick wrote:
FAQ has been updated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Tallarn is simply advancing makes heavy into assault. Ok I guess but I'm not attached to it.

Not that bad for Hellhounds, Flamer Sentinels, and a triple heavy flamer LRBT. Probably some niche uses, but overall most won't be advancing with their Leman Russ's as the double shot is generally more valuable.
Though a TC, using the Tallarn Order, and advancing, could get in range of heavy flamers on turn 1 (10+D6+6 inch move, 8" range); not amazing, but a nasty surprise for those not expecting it.

You are giving up your double turret by doing that though.

I'm not really sure if it is worth it but Tallarn could now take 3 Heavy Flamer Scout Sentinels, make the Scout Move (9''), then normal move (9''), then advamce (D6'') and thus might(!) be in range to flame things in the opposite deployment zone. Also if you add on "crush them" they might then even be close enough for a charge.

I'm also really hoping that the Cyclops is somehow reworded in a way that Tallarn Cyclopes can detonate after advancing. That alone might make Tallarn worthwhile.

So I have been looking at the indirect fire, and wondering which to take. What do people think of manticores vs basilisks now? Both got only small points increases, mainly through their hull gun. I can see a pair of either being very useful.

I'll probably be avoiding the wrath detachment, as I need the hammer of sunderance and don't want to take a second detachment like I used to. So that evens the two units out a bit.

I think indirect fire is going to be pretty important, with the new terrain rules.

Game ever only lasting 5 turns is indirectly a buff to the Manticore, since it can now shoot 80% of the time, instead potentially only 57% of the time.

In a vacuum I'd probably take the Manticore over the Basilisk:
1 less AP and 1 less shot (assuming both survive to the 5th turn) but averaging 7 shots instead of 4,47, and on occasion that extra point of Strength will help.

Did they ever clarify how 2d6 shots work against 6-10 models? It is min 3 on 2d6, or min 3 on each die? I get the feeling it will be the former.

 Trickstick wrote:
Did they ever clarify how 2d6 shots work against 6-10 models? It is min 3 on 2d6, or min 3 on each die? I get the feeling it will be the former.

They don't need to clarify anything because the rule is, for once, crystal clear. The problem is with the players not liking the rule or being unable to read, not with the rule.

It's the former. Regardless of what type of dice or how many you roll against a unit of 6-10, the final result, if it's less than 3, become a 3.

D6 vs 6-10 models is a range of 3-6 shots.
2D6 vs 6-10 models is a range of 3-12 shots.
4D6 vs 6-10 models is a range of 4-24 shots.
3D3 vs 6-10 models is a range of 3-9 shots.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Did they ever clarify how 2d6 shots work against 6-10 models? It is min 3 on 2d6, or min 3 on each die? I get the feeling it will be the former.

They don't need to clarify anything because the rule is, for once, crystal clear. The problem is with the players not liking the rule or being unable to read, not with the rule.

It's the former. Regardless of what type of dice or how many you roll against a unit of 6-10, the final result, if it's less than 3, become a 3.

D6 vs 6-10 models is a range of 3-6 shots.
2D6 vs 6-10 models is a range of 3-12 shots.
4D6 vs 6-10 models is a range of 4-24 shots.
3D3 vs 6-10 models is a range of 3-9 shots.

Oh I agree that it was pretty clear, but you know how GW is. It is clear, until it suddenly was wrong the whole time. (-:

So, I found out that the rocket pod vulture actually dropped by 2 points, making it 50pts cheaper than a punisher vulture. Do people think that such a saving is worth the reduction in firepower? Exactly how much worse is 4d6 blast with -1ap, rather than 40 shots? I know it is worse, but is it 50pts worse?

Regular Russ tanks took a hit but tank commanders with a single heavy flamer are only up 10 points. I still see 3 as competitive.

With the changes to rerolls do manticore and wyvern reroll all of their dice now?

The big winner that I see is SWS and CCS with the big cut in special weapons costs. What's going to make them really good is they are 2PL and new outflank 10PL worth of units.

The cyclops is even more of a beast now. For 1 CP reserve 2 SWS/CCS and 2 cyclops. When they come in on your own board edge they can come in as close to the enemy as you want. If someone tags a vehicle with a blast weapon at the edge of your deployment zone there is nothing they can do about a cyclops rolling in and going boom.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
I listened through it and tried to take notes. Overall not too bad Price increases with some reaaaaally odd decisions.
The one most strange were the Leman Russ weapons. After saying that blast weapons would go up in price because they are now so good against hordes they left Demolisher, Eradicator Executioner at the same price, made the Battlecannon 2 points cheaper and increased the Punisher by 5 and the Exterminator by 13 (!!!). I mean... really? The Exterminator? A Twin Autocannon now costs 150% as much as two single autocannons?

It's just... why? Am I blind and the Exterminator suddenly got some rules that make it tremendously powerful? Or am I going deaf and have misheard?

Twin autocannon vs autocannon explanation is that twin autocannon is exclusively vehicle weapon while autocannon is also on infantry. And vehicles can move and shoot that without penalty and shoot in combat. Same thing can be seen with heavy bolters(10/30) in SM/SOB for example.

Though still expensive but that explains why some twin weapons cost more.

Incidentall means individual heavy bolter/autocannon is either too expensive on infantry or too cheap in vehicle

Any vehicle weapon without blast went up in points. That's why heavy bolter and punishes became so expensive.

Thunderer siege tanks and cheaper than Russ tanks for now. They will likely raise the price after people finish their conversions.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Any vehicle weapon without blast went up in points. That's why heavy bolter and punishes became so expensive.

Thunderer siege tanks and cheaper than Russ tanks for now. They will likely raise the price after people finish their conversions.

Thunderers can't double shoot their cannon though.

@tneva82: a that makes sense now, thanks. It's still... odd that the blast weapons of the LR did not went up too. But maybe the new CC rules really make the Exterminator worth 30 points. I can at least hope to be pleasantly surprised

 Trickstick wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Any vehicle weapon without blast went up in points. That's why heavy bolter and punishes became so expensive.

Thunderer siege tanks and cheaper than Russ tanks for now. They will likely raise the price after people finish their conversions.

Thunderers can't double shoot their cannon though.

They lack the Leman Russ keyword but still have grinding advance. They can not take any additional weapons.