Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Two awesome points, first one I KEEP forgetting. DEFINITELY take specials on scions...I mean storm troopers

Or Kasrkin... (-:

Actually, I have 30 Kasrkin and a Scion command squad. I'm conflicted in my loyalties.

I converted my guardsmen with space marine scouts legs and heads for carapace vets so I have 90 uparmored guys I am fielding as scions, THEN I own 20 metal kasrkin and 40 of the original metal storm troopers LMAO. I have so fething many drop troopers and I hadn't really realized it. Time to get painting I guess

I am going to field an all storm trooper army with 6 hell hounds and characters, I think it will be quite strong, makes up for the nerfs that ruined my GSC and DE . I also have 50 painted berserkers, 7 painted berserker bikers and some terminators, I think that army will be funny too. My brother an I have strange tendancies toward tons of infantry, I think he has some 90 skitarii, 80+ guardians and around 90 greenwing dark angles... I think some bizarre gaming is about to hit our group

If you are in a transport, you cant interact in any way with anything unless specifically stated otherwise.

aaaah, I totally overlooked that, can someone tell me where the transport rules are specified?

 Mr.Moe wrote:

If you are in a transport, you cant interact in any way with anything unless specifically stated otherwise.

aaaah, I totally overlooked that, can someone tell me where the transport rules are specified?

Box on page 183.

 ross-128 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

Well, keep in mind two of the orders are re-rolling 1s to hit and re-rolling 1s to wound. So you do have damage-boosting options for non-lasguns, though they're not nearly the straight-up doubling you get from FRFSRF.

Re-rolling 1s on plasma guns lets you recklessly overcharge them though, and that does quite literally double their damage.

I think it would be interesting to see how the mathhammer works out though for wounds-per-point though, for FRFSRF hot-shot squads vs Aim+Overcharge plasma squads (though I'm sure it depends very much on the Toughness of your target).

It's important to note that since Scions have to be set up "more than 9 inches" away, they will not be within rapid fire range.

Hotshot Only 10-man -- 90pts

Plasmaspam 10-man -- 118

vs T4 2+

Hotshots + FRFSRF => 2.11 wounds (42.65 points per wound)

Plasmaspam + Aim => 8.33 wounds (14.17 points per wound) (and an average of 0.25 brave scions lost to overheating)

vs T5 3+

Hotshots + FRFSRF => 2.81 wounds (32 points per wound)

Plasmaspam + Aim => 8.51 wounds (13.87 points per wound) (and an average of 0.25 brave scions lost to overheating)

Sooooooo yeah. Plasma is good.

Good points!!

Didnt see how cheap the plasma was, in that case I would just take CMD squads with 4 plasma for 16 points each. 64 points, two of them and a Tempestor Prime. Do this twice and you got the elite detachment filled. Not bad for 336 points.

Yeah, what's really nice is that since overcharging gives you S8, you're getting that 3+ all the way up to T7. Overcharged plasma is actually quite a fine anti-tank weapon, and tempestor command squads are a great way to make it magically appear right next to a very expensive target.

If you can pop them into cover while you're at it you might even get a couple more rounds of shooting out of them.

 ross-128 wrote:
Yeah, what's really nice is that since overcharging gives you S8, you're getting that 3+ all the way up to T7. Overcharged plasma is actually quite a fine anti-tank weapon, and tempestor command squads are a great way to make it magically appear right next to a very expensive target.

If you can pop them into cover while you're at it you might even get a couple more rounds of shooting out of them.

Especially since terrain has zero negative impact in this edition. Always walk through it if you can. I actually really hate that fact.

Has anyone seen the Vendetta rules anywhere? I am guessing this is now seriously powerful with 6 Lascannon shots so guessing it will get grouped in with the big boy stuff later?

 ross-128 wrote:
Yeah, what's really nice is that since overcharging gives you S8, you're getting that 3+ all the way up to T7. Overcharged plasma is actually quite a fine anti-tank weapon, and tempestor command squads are a great way to make it magically appear right next to a very expensive target.

It's the 2 damage that struck me. Pretty much overcharge against anything with mroe than one wound, or if the str8 makes your roll better.

Well, I for one, believe that I could probably get away with not changing my old list:

Astra Militarum (1750/1850pt.) 1750 tank division with multiple detachments
http://hq-builder.com/shared/183266


@Primary Detachment [ 1 ]

'Emperor's Fist' Armoured Company
Astra Militarum;

Knight Commander Pask (425pt.)
> 1x - Command Leman Russ Punisher (175pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Punisher gatling cannon; Heavy bolter (x3); Camo netting;
> 1x - Leman Russ Vanquisher (180pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Vanquisher battle cannon; Lascannon; Multimelta (x2); Camo netting;
Leman Russ Squadron (185pt.)
> 1x - Leman Russ Demolisher (185pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Demolisher siege cannon; Heavy bolter; Camo netting;
Leman Russ Squadron (135pt.)
> 1x - Leman Russ Eradicator (135pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Eradicator nova cannon; Heavy flamer; Camo netting;
Leman Russ Squadron (180pt.)
> 1x - Leman Russ Vanquisher (180pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Vanquisher battle cannon; Lascannon; Multimelta (x2); Camo netting;
Enginseer (45pt.) Power armour; Laspistol; Power axe; Frag grenades; Krak grenades; Servo-arm; Melta bombs;
@Secondary Detachment [ 2 ]

Astra Militarum (Combined arms detachment)
Astra Militarum;

@HQ [ 2 ]

5x - Company Command Squad (60pt.)
> 1x - Company Commander ; Refractor field; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Laspistol; Flak armour;
> 4x - Veteran ; Frag grenades; Lasgun; Flak armour;


Ministorum Priest (25pt.) Flak armour; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Rosarius; Laspistol;

@Troops [ 2 ]

Infantry Platoon (220pt.)
# Platoon Command Squad (30pt.)
> 1x - Platoon Commander ; Flak armour; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Laspistol;
> 4x - Guardsman ; Flak armour; Frag grenades; Lasgun;
# 2x - Infantry Squad (50pt.)
> 1x - Sergeant ; Flak armour; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Laspistol;
> 9x - Guardsman ; Frag grenades; Flak armour; Lasgun;
# Conscripts (90pt.)
> 30x - Conscript ; Frag grenades; Flak armour; Lasgun;


10x - Veterans (125pt.)
> 1x - Veteran Sergeant ; Frag grenades; Close combat weapon; Laspistol; Flak armour;
> 9x - Veteran ; Frag grenades; Lasgun; Flak armour;
> 1x - Chimera (65pt.); Searchlight; Smoke launchers; Heavy bolter; Multi-laser;


Oathsworn detachment

@Lords of War [ 1 ]

Knight Paladin (375pt.) Heavy stubber (x2); Rapid-fire battle cannon; Ion shield; Reaper chainsword;

Statistics:
* Models: 79
* Units: 14

@Created by Head Quarters - online roster builder

The point totals haven't been updated, but something similar to this is what I will keep.

I may also just end up going for an all tank list, or maybe an armored division with a Knight, or with artillery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nevertellmetheodds wrote:
Has anyone seen the Vendetta rules anywhere? I am guessing this is now seriously powerful with 6 Lascannon shots so guessing it will get grouped in with the big boy stuff later?

I didn't see anything in the leaks, but I might've missed it.

Is it just me, or does it actually seem viable to use tank spam in the new edition?

 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

...
What.
Take two 10 men Scion Squads with 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol. 133 points each with a vox. Take a Tempestus for 40. You now have 8 (overcharged) plasma shots at 24" and EIGHTEEN (overcharged) plasma shots at 12", that hit on 3+ and re-roll all 1s on the hit roll (massively limiting overheating casualties) thanks to orders. And that's before even considering all those hotshot guns throwing in their weight as well. They completely outclass Executioner Russes or those new plasma Primaris marines. And you can place them anywhere on the board where you want, right in cover for a 3+ save.

People should stop treating them as suicide units only, they now have serious potential in simply reinforcing a battle line. They are VERY cost efficient and extremely flexible as they come with a free and risk free "place anywhere on the board" transport built in (unlike veterans or command squads which need a very pricy chimera/taurox/valkyrie). Playing against assault armies that rush you? Place in your gunline and slaughter elite units after popping their transport. Playing a board with tons of spread out objectives? Nab them with the Scions and discourage units from going there with the massed firepower. Playing against tau? Place them 9" away, blast two suit units away and then proceed to move-rapid fire-assault with them in the following turns.

They are an extremely point efficient nightmare for any marine army and elite unit. 16 points for a 3+ to hit plasma gun with a 3+ save in cover who will re-roll 1s to hit and overcharge as much as they want. A single squad of them with the 5x plasma set-up will downright delete any terminator unit from the board in one shooting phase at 12" with the Take Aim! order if it doesn't have storm shields (if that is even enough to save them with all the D2 wounds they'll have to save).

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

...
What.
Take two 10 men Scion Squads with 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol. 133 points each with a vox. Take a Tempestus for 40. You now have 8 (overcharged) plasma shots at 24" and EIGHTEEN (overcharged) plasma shots at 12", that hit on 3+ and re-roll all 1s on the hit roll (massively limiting overheating casualties) thanks to orders. And that's before even considering all those hotshot guns throwing in their weight as well. They completely outclass Executioner Russes or those new plasma Primaris marines. And you can place them anywhere on the board where you want, right in cover for a 3+ save.

People should stop treating them as suicide units only, they now have serious potential in simply reinforcing a battle line. They are VERY cost efficient and extremely flexible as they come with a free and risk free "place anywhere on the board" transport built in (unlike veterans or command squads which need a very pricy chimera/taurox/valkyrie). Playing against assault armies that rush you? Place in your gunline and slaughter elite units after popping their transport. Playing a board with tons of spread out objectives? Nab them with the Scions and discourage units from going there with the massed firepower. Playing against tau? Place them 9" away, blast two suit units away and then proceed to move-rapid fire-assault with them in the following turns.

They are an extremely point efficient nightmare for any marine army and elite unit. 16 points for a 3+ to hit plasma gun with a 3+ save in cover who will re-roll 1s to hit and overcharge as much as they want. A single squad of them with the 5x plasma set-up will downright delete any terminator unit from the board in one shooting phase at 12" with the Take Aim! order if it doesn't have storm shields (if that is even enough to save them with all the D2 wounds they'll have to save).

I missed how cheap special weapons were for guard. Corrected later.

 Leth wrote:

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

...
What.
Take two 10 men Scion Squads with 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol. 133 points each with a vox. Take a Tempestus for 40. You now have 8 (overcharged) plasma shots at 24" and EIGHTEEN (overcharged) plasma shots at 12", that hit on 3+ and re-roll all 1s on the hit roll (massively limiting overheating casualties) thanks to orders. And that's before even considering all those hotshot guns throwing in their weight as well. They completely outclass Executioner Russes or those new plasma Primaris marines. And you can place them anywhere on the board where you want, right in cover for a 3+ save.

People should stop treating them as suicide units only, they now have serious potential in simply reinforcing a battle line. They are VERY cost efficient and extremely flexible as they come with a free and risk free "place anywhere on the board" transport built in (unlike veterans or command squads which need a very pricy chimera/taurox/valkyrie). Playing against assault armies that rush you? Place in your gunline and slaughter elite units after popping their transport. Playing a board with tons of spread out objectives? Nab them with the Scions and discourage units from going there with the massed firepower. Playing against tau? Place them 9" away, blast two suit units away and then proceed to move-rapid fire-assault with them in the following turns.

They are an extremely point efficient nightmare for any marine army and elite unit. 16 points for a 3+ to hit plasma gun with a 3+ save in cover who will re-roll 1s to hit and overcharge as much as they want. A single squad of them with the 5x plasma set-up will downright delete any terminator unit from the board in one shooting phase at 12" with the Take Aim! order if it doesn't have storm shields (if that is even enough to save them with all the D2 wounds they'll have to save).

I missed how cheap special weapons were for guard. Corrected later.

Yep, saw that a minute ago.
Was busy furiously typing my wall of text, sorry for that .

Really, REALLY happy with the scions though, just bought 20 2nd hand Kasrkin and 10 3rd Edition Stormtroopers to reinforce the 6 Kasrkin I already have a week ago because I love the models so much, it's amazing that I'll be able to field two full Kasrkin units and actually have them be a competitive choice. Only problem is I only own 3 of the Kasrkin plasma gunners, will have to build another 5 plasma gunners with an extra scion box.

Yeah, I think scion plasma ninjas might be my preferred method of assassination in 8th. Sure, I'll need a 9" gap to get behind/next to an IC, but I'm pretty sure my gunline can make a hole. And when they do, their warlord won't know what hit them.

A thought that I had about heavy weapon squads and splitting fire. We are used to using matched sets, with 3 lascannons or autocannons etc. However, the 3 lascannons could result in overkill against a tank, making the 2nd or 3rd one waste firepower. Would it not be better to have mixed HWSs, with for example a lascannon bolter and mortar? That would mean you would shoot the first lascannon, with the other guns going into troops. If the tank needed another shot, shoot the second. You are saving fire by not having to guess how many lascannons are needed for a target, taking the gambling away slightly.

I thought orders may hurt this idea, but none of them need a target anymore and just giving reroll 1s to hit helps all of the weapons you could use anyway.

What I've been doing is embedding my anti-tank weapons in infantry squads, where they can benefit from ablative wounds. Each one can only take one heavy weapon anyway, so it has the same effect. I use independent heavy weapon squads for masses of cheap anti-infantry weapons like mortars or heavy bolters, so they won't be such juicy targets (or in the case of mortars, they can hide out of LoS).

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

...
What.
Take two 10 men Scion Squads with 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol. 133 points each with a vox. Take a Tempestus for 40. You now have 8 (overcharged) plasma shots at 24" and EIGHTEEN (overcharged) plasma shots at 12", that hit on 3+ and re-roll all 1s on the hit roll (massively limiting overheating casualties) thanks to orders. And that's before even considering all those hotshot guns throwing in their weight as well. They completely outclass Executioner Russes or those new plasma Primaris marines. And you can place them anywhere on the board where you want, right in cover for a 3+ save.

People should stop treating them as suicide units only, they now have serious potential in simply reinforcing a battle line. They are VERY cost efficient and extremely flexible as they come with a free and risk free "place anywhere on the board" transport built in (unlike veterans or command squads which need a very pricy chimera/taurox/valkyrie). Playing against assault armies that rush you? Place in your gunline and slaughter elite units after popping their transport. Playing a board with tons of spread out objectives? Nab them with the Scions and discourage units from going there with the massed firepower. Playing against tau? Place them 9" away, blast two suit units away and then proceed to move-rapid fire-assault with them in the following turns.

They are an extremely point efficient nightmare for any marine army and elite unit. 16 points for a 3+ to hit plasma gun with a 3+ save in cover who will re-roll 1s to hit and overcharge as much as they want. A single squad of them with the 5x plasma set-up will downright delete any terminator unit from the board in one shooting phase at 12" with the Take Aim! order if it doesn't have storm shields (if that is even enough to save them with all the D2 wounds they'll have to save).

The rules say that the Tempestus Prime lose his pistol option for an commandrod upgrade (making 2 orders instead of one) So your boss cannot shoot anymore :( It doesnt matter anyway because you fire 8-16 plasma shots per squad.

I've got a question for you, chaps, if I was going to do an all-infantry army, what weapon combinations would you recommend for infantry squads?

e.g. is it worth putting a plasmagun with a lascannon? Does an autocannon go best with a grenade launcher, a plasmagun or something else (or nothing)? What heavy weapon (if any) would you recommend for infantry squads using short-ranged weapons like meltas or flamers?

 ross-128 wrote:
What I've been doing is embedding my anti-tank weapons in infantry squads, where they can benefit from ablative wounds. Each one can only take one heavy weapon anyway, so it has the same effect. I use independent heavy weapon squads for masses of cheap anti-infantry weapons like mortars or heavy bolters, so they won't be such juicy targets (or in the case of mortars, they can hide out of LoS).

Not a bad idea. I guess the lascannons are best in the second line of infantry, as the front line is going to get assaulted very quickly sometimes. Or get conscripts for that front line.

One thing I think we have to be careful of is going too far all in on anti elite. Hordes will most likely be making a comeback as well so a take all comers list needs to be ready to deal with that.

Hey guys, I'm a Mechanicus player that was looking forward for 8th Ed. so I can finally buy the Start Collecting Scions because I absolutely love the models and their capacities, now that they're scatter-free I really want to use them, however finding a loadout with them is a nightmare. At first I was looking on using the 5 Scions as anti-tank with two Meltaguns via the Taurox Prime, backed by the Lord Commissar, and the Tempestor with Command Rod as support to deep-striking Command Squad full of plasma to make them reroll their 1s to hit and then to wound while supercharged. But now that we've been discussing it a bit on the Mechanicus thread it looks like the weakness of our army is dealing with hordes, so I had another idea. Deepstriking Tempestor Prime + Command squad, full of Hot-Shot volley guns, with the same orders. 16 shots at S4, AP -1 at 24" range. I love picturing the paratroopers deploying their miniguns atop a building to rain death from above. As for the other 5 Scions I don't know, I guess I'd give them two Meltaguns or leave them as they are. I'm not sure if the Taurox Prime is a great asset or not, on one hand it's fast and can equip a 20 shots Gatling Cannon + some other weapons, but on the other hand I wonder if Deepstriking is not a better option ? At least no one can blow them up this way.

What are your thoughts on this ?

That's one area where I'm definitely expecting missile launchers to shine.

Before:
S8 would wound 6-/7/8/9/10 on 2/3/4/5/6 respectively, S9 rolls 1 better at every level
S8 would wound AV 10/11/12/13/14 on 2/3/4/5/6 respectively, S9 rolls 1 better at every level
AP3 would deny 3+ or less, did nothing against cover
3" blast would get 2 hits at most with good spacing, could easily get 0-1 hits on scatter.
S4 useless against T6 or higher

After:
S8 will wound 4- on 2, 5-7 on 3, 8 on 4, 9-15 on 5. S9 is identical for everything except 8/9/16.
AP-2 works against all save values and negates cover
d6 damage can remove chunks from enemy vehicles
d6 blast averages 3.5 shots, 1.75 hits at BS4+. Can get up to 6 hits, complete misses much rarer. Can be improved by Orders.
S4 is still a 5+ to wound all the way up to T7, can wound anything.

It seems the missile launcher has gone from being mediocre at everything, good at nothing, to just being good at everything.

27 point mortar teams and 36 point heavy bolter teams will be a lot of help against hordes too.

Edit:
Regarding deep-striking: see the above discussion about plasma scions. Plasma is REALLY GOOD in 8th and REALLY CHEAP for the Imperial Guard. I'd say that for deep-striking, due to the 9" rule and the Tempestor Prime's ability to make the Scions re-roll Gets Hot rolls, plasma is far better at anti-tank than melta is and at a lower cost to boot.

 Paintalist wrote:

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

...
What.
Take two 10 men Scion Squads with 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol. 133 points each with a vox. Take a Tempestus for 40. You now have 8 (overcharged) plasma shots at 24" and EIGHTEEN (overcharged) plasma shots at 12", that hit on 3+ and re-roll all 1s on the hit roll (massively limiting overheating casualties) thanks to orders. And that's before even considering all those hotshot guns throwing in their weight as well. They completely outclass Executioner Russes or those new plasma Primaris marines. And you can place them anywhere on the board where you want, right in cover for a 3+ save.

People should stop treating them as suicide units only, they now have serious potential in simply reinforcing a battle line. They are VERY cost efficient and extremely flexible as they come with a free and risk free "place anywhere on the board" transport built in (unlike veterans or command squads which need a very pricy chimera/taurox/valkyrie). Playing against assault armies that rush you? Place in your gunline and slaughter elite units after popping their transport. Playing a board with tons of spread out objectives? Nab them with the Scions and discourage units from going there with the massed firepower. Playing against tau? Place them 9" away, blast two suit units away and then proceed to move-rapid fire-assault with them in the following turns.

They are an extremely point efficient nightmare for any marine army and elite unit. 16 points for a 3+ to hit plasma gun with a 3+ save in cover who will re-roll 1s to hit and overcharge as much as they want. A single squad of them with the 5x plasma set-up will downright delete any terminator unit from the board in one shooting phase at 12" with the Take Aim! order if it doesn't have storm shields (if that is even enough to save them with all the D2 wounds they'll have to save).

The rules say that the Tempestus Prime lose his pistol option for an commandrod upgrade (making 2 orders instead of one) So your boss cannot shoot anymore :( It doesnt matter anyway because you fire 8-16 plasma shots per squad.

The Scion/Stormtrooper squad leader (non-prime Tempestor) can take a 5pt. plasma pistol, which I included in the 133pt. squads (4x Plasma Gun, 1x Plasma Pistol, 1x Vox+Pistol, 4 regular Hotshot-lasguns). I didn't calculate the 40pt. Tempestor Prime into my shooting because, well, he can't shoot anything with his command rod. Not that he needs to, he is simply there to hand out re-rollable 1s to hit for both plasma scion squads, which is a massive buff well worth the points considering your can supercharge your shots with abandon (in addition to basically hitting with almost 83% of your shots).

The vox casters are only there so you are not forced to place both Scion squads together but can keep one of them 18" away from the Prime (I like tactical flexibility). Theoretically you could leave those off, save 10 points and keep two hotshot lasguns instead of the two rather useless 6" range pistols you have to replace the rifle with on the vox guys, if you can live with always having to keep both squads within 6" of the Prime.

Did we lose blob?

 Aaranis wrote:
Hey guys, I'm a Mechanicus player that was looking forward for 8th Ed. so I can finally buy the Start Collecting Scions because I absolutely love the models and their capacities, now that they're scatter-free I really want to use them, however finding a loadout with them is a nightmare. At first I was looking on using the 5 Scions as anti-tank with two Meltaguns via the Taurox Prime, backed by the Lord Commissar, and the Tempestor with Command Rod as support to deep-striking Command Squad full of plasma to make them reroll their 1s to hit and then to wound while supercharged. But now that we've been discussing it a bit on the Mechanicus thread it looks like the weakness of our army is dealing with hordes, so I had another idea. Deepstriking Tempestor Prime + Command squad, full of Hot-Shot volley guns, with the same orders. 16 shots at S4, AP -1 at 24" range. I love picturing the paratroopers deploying their miniguns atop a building to rain death from above. As for the other 5 Scions I don't know, I guess I'd give them two Meltaguns or leave them as they are. I'm not sure if the Taurox Prime is a great asset or not, on one hand it's fast and can equip a 20 shots Gatling Cannon + some other weapons, but on the other hand I wonder if Deepstriking is not a better option ? At least no one can blow them up this way.

What are your thoughts on this ?

Hmmm, Scions for anti-horde? I mean, it could work, I hadn't really thought about it. Guard don't really need anti-horde with frfsrf and lasguns, so I always though of Scions as taking out key, hard targets or being backfield menaces.

First thing, volley guns are not a good deep striking weapon as they are heavy. This gives them -1 to hit, as deep striking counts as movement. Maybe grenade launchers, although frag grenades are only str 3 so are not great against the like or Orks. You are probably better off deploying them in defensive positions with volley guns instead of deep striking, to get the most out of the heavy weapon. A squad of 10 with 4 volley guns can put out a lot of shots, maybe even frfsrf to double the normal hot shot fire. I would have to calculate if the double lasgun or reroll 1s order was better, no idea.

The Taurox with gatling would be a great anti-horde unit, although I am always loathe to buy a transport and not use it as one. I guess you could deploy it next to a gunline volley squad and use it to run away as needed, or if the way is clear then hop in and go grab an objective.

Aside from the mortar teams, I think Manticors are the next best Heavy for buck

 Trickstick wrote:

Hmmm, Scions for anti-horde? I mean, it could work, I hadn't really thought about it. Guard don't really need anti-horde with frfsrf and lasguns, so I always though of Scions as taking out key, hard targets or being backfield menaces.

First thing, volley guns are not a good deep striking weapon as they are heavy. This gives them -1 to hit, as deep striking counts as movement. Maybe grenade launchers, although frag grenades are only str 3 so are not great against the like or Orks. You are probably better off deploying them in defensive positions with volley guns instead of deep striking, to get the most out of the heavy weapon. A squad of 10 with 4 volley guns can put out a lot of shots, maybe even frfsrf to double the normal hot shot fire. I would have to calculate if the double lasgun or reroll 1s order was better, no idea.

The Taurox with gatling would be a great anti-horde unit, although I am always loathe to buy a transport and not use it as one. I guess you could deploy it next to a gunline volley squad and use it to run away as needed, or if the way is clear then hop in and go grab an objective.

Oh yeah wasn't sure about the Deepstrike still counting as a movement. Well they still hit on 4+ but I see the waste still. Yeah I'm conflicted as if I should buy the Start Collecting or just a Command Squad and 5 Scions. I guess I could deploy my Volley Gun squad in defensive positions, with the Scions in front to bubble a bit, maybe with some special weapons, and keep the Taurox Prime close to hop in to move positions if needed. I don't see anywhere that a vehicle can't move after having embarked units, is it legal ?

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Aside from the mortar teams, I think Manticors are the next best Heavy for buck

Was comparing the basilisk and manticore, I just don't see the need to take a basilisk. For 25pts you get double the shots and +1str, with the downside of not firing on turn 5. Most games are decided by turn 5 anyway, or at least doing 8d6 shots over 4 turns is better than 5d6 over 5.

If you take two or three manticores, it could be worth it to take a MoO. You get to reroll 1s for number of shots, and get a single use basilisk too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aaranis wrote:
I don't see anywhere that a vehicle can't move after having embarked units, is it legal ?

Sure is, you just can't disembark after movement.

As for the start collecting box, looks nice. I don't know if you would want to use the Commissar much though. I guess you could use him as a fighting character. Is it still a good deal if you sit him out of games?

 Trickstick wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
I don't see anywhere that a vehicle can't move after having embarked units, is it legal ?

Sure is, you just can't disembark after movement.

As for the start collecting box, looks nice. I don't know if you would want to use the Commissar much though. I guess you could use him as a fighting character. Is it still a good deal if you sit him out of games?

Well the Commissar can limit the effects of Morale as well as filling up an HQ slot for my Detachments so there's that, he's a really good fighting character too, to a reasonable extent, I could use him to do an Heroic Intervention if I have any problems. He's also a source of Plasma shots too I guess.

 Trickstick wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Aside from the mortar teams, I think Manticors are the next best Heavy for buck

Was comparing the basilisk and manticore, I just don't see the need to take a basilisk. For 25pts you get double the shots and +1str, with the downside of not firing on turn 5. Most games are decided by turn 5 anyway, or at least doing 8d6 shots over 4 turns is better than 5d6 over 5.

If you take two or three manticores, it could be worth it to take a MoO. You get to reroll 1s for number of shots, and get a single use basilisk too.

Manticore also has T7, while Basilisk has T6.