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 Red Corsair wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.

Can't see any fault in that logic. It's a tactical advantage to have unit(s) that fire indirectly, and if they're points efficient, even better.

Well I also need to take some variety for sanity sake, I love scions and Tprimes but lol, I can't be that guy...

Yep. Someone will be that guy though.

I'll have a mix of all types of stuff as well. But only the good stuff. We just have to go through everything with a calculator to see what our options are.

"Bret should use numbers and facts to make his arguments rather then making an argument from authority based on his win in an edition where nobody really respects winning that much due to how busted it was. His leman russ comment is just wrong. He didn't even pick a good load out. 51 pts just in HF's lol."

I agree, but neither he nor Master of Ordinance uses numbers. Without numbers, I know whom I'm going with.

For heavy weapon teams. They are specialized, but work very well for what they do. In the AM army, they are pretty much the peak of efficiency for the LC, ML, AC, Mortar or HB as your entry cost is 4 points per weapon.
If you needed to add some extra anti-armor into your list, throwing in a squad or two of these is a bonus. Extra Mortar would help to clear out hordes. At 27 points for 3 mortar squads they are dirt cheap too.


Rhino
LC is 24.68
ML is 30.85
AC are 32.57
Mortars : 46.28
HB : 48

MEQ
LC is 69.12
ML is 86.4
AC are 48.85
Mortars : 30.85
HB : 24

GEQ
LC is 57.6
ML is 41.14
AC are 23.45
Mortars : 11.57
HB : 14.4

 Therion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.

Can't see any fault in that logic. It's a tactical advantage to have unit(s) that fire indirectly, and if they're points efficient, even better.

Well I also need to take some variety for sanity sake, I love scions and Tprimes but lol, I can't be that guy...

Yep. Someone will be that guy though. In fact, someone will be the guy with nothing but grav chuting Plasma Scions that super-charge on first turn.

I'll have a mix of all types of stuff as well. But only the good stuff. We just have to go through everything with a calculator to see what our options are.

Well I was discussing this with my brother, who loves hordes lol so he is happy right now. He made a solid point, if the enemy has a decent screen, the scions only army is screwed. Or take for example orks. I can get 300 shoota boys for only 1800 pts So you need to mix in some primes and maybe a counter assault unit IMO. I actually think orks are the best army now. Was thinking that initial conclusion would change but so far nothing is telling me so. They are in a very strong spot.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.

As a fair heads up. The way objectives now work is the player with the most models within 3" of the objective controls it. A single can easily lose the objective.

Martel732 wrote:
"Bret should use numbers and facts to make his arguments rather then making an argument from authority based on his win in an edition where nobody really respects winning that much due to how busted it was. His leman russ comment is just wrong. He didn't even pick a good load out. 51 pts just in HF's lol."

I agree, but neither he nor Master of Ordinance uses numbers. Without numbers, I know whom I'm going with.

Go with neither, I can't even count how many times Bret has claimed he had things figured out and was wrong. He usually wins based on tournament format flaws like time. I mean he is called slow play Bret now by a fair amount of opponents. I think in the LVO final his opponent literally played for maybe 15 minutes while Bret took over and hour...

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.

Can't see any fault in that logic. It's a tactical advantage to have unit(s) that fire indirectly, and if they're points efficient, even better.

Well I also need to take some variety for sanity sake, I love scions and Tprimes but lol, I can't be that guy...

Yep. Someone will be that guy though. In fact, someone will be the guy with nothing but grav chuting Plasma Scions that super-charge on first turn.

I'll have a mix of all types of stuff as well. But only the good stuff. We just have to go through everything with a calculator to see what our options are.

Well I was discussing this with my brother, who loves hordes lol so he is happy right now. He made a solid point, if the enemy has a decent screen, the scions only army is screwed. Or take for example orks. I can get 300 shoota boys for only 1800 pts So you need to mix in some primes and maybe a counter assault unit IMO. I actually think orks are the best army now. Was thinking that initial conclusion would change but so far nothing is telling me so. They are in a very strong spot.

You're absolutely right. The counter assault unit is something that I'd prefer, both visually and gameplay wise. I've always liked hybrid armies because they give you the tactical advantage. If an enemy comes to you, you can sit back and shoot and then counter-assault just before they hit you, or after they've hit you. If an enemy doesn't come to you, you don't need to try to out-shoot them with your efficiency because your assault units gives you another win condition.

I just don't know what an efficient assault unit for <Imperial> armies is. It'll take some time to go through every <Imperial> unit. Thunderwolves is what I used in the past. I had a brief look at them and they pack a punch with lightning claws but aren't exactly cheap either. I'd really like the unit to have some speed so they can advance if need be, instead of being relegated to purely "wait here and assault if something comes here" duty. Terminators, because of their teleport strike, are something that need to be mathhammered also.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.

As a fair heads up. The way objectives now work is the player with the most models within 3" of the objective controls it. A single can easily lose the objective.

Wow, thanks for the heads up thats a major change and I am not sure I like it. This just makes infantry that much better I mean this edition is really pushing people into infantry only. The more we crunch it the worse it gets. Why waste points on a transport even in guard when Move Move Move is guaranteed to resolve and get you there now?

 labmouse42 wrote:
For heavy weapon teams. They are specialized, but work very well for what they do. In the AM army, they are pretty much the peak of efficiency for the LC, ML, AC, Mortar or HB as your entry cost is 4 points per weapon.
If you needed to add some extra anti-armor into your list, throwing in a squad or two of these is a bonus. Extra Mortar would help to clear out hordes. At 27 points for 3 mortar squads they are dirt cheap too.

With the split fire changes, along with the wound allocation changes, I think that mixed HWSs are really the way to go. Put a ML/LC along with 2 HB/Mortar. You can allocate to a cheaper weapon, unlike a squad of 3 LC where they can reduce fire power with 1 kill. You can split fire much more efficiently, shooting 1 LC at a time instead of trying to guess how many are needed out of your 3. You can spread your LCs around a larger area, instead of all in one space that can be hidden from.

Mixed squads are really the way to go. I would put LCs in infantry squads to keep them safe, but then you are giving up better orders for frfsrf and you will get into melee much quicker too.

 Therion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.

Can't see any fault in that logic. It's a tactical advantage to have unit(s) that fire indirectly, and if they're points efficient, even better.

Well I also need to take some variety for sanity sake, I love scions and Tprimes but lol, I can't be that guy...

Yep. Someone will be that guy though. In fact, someone will be the guy with nothing but grav chuting Plasma Scions that super-charge on first turn.

I'll have a mix of all types of stuff as well. But only the good stuff. We just have to go through everything with a calculator to see what our options are.

Well I was discussing this with my brother, who loves hordes lol so he is happy right now. He made a solid point, if the enemy has a decent screen, the scions only army is screwed. Or take for example orks. I can get 300 shoota boys for only 1800 pts So you need to mix in some primes and maybe a counter assault unit IMO. I actually think orks are the best army now. Was thinking that initial conclusion would change but so far nothing is telling me so. They are in a very strong spot.

You're absolutely right. The counter assault unit is something that I'd prefer, both visually and gameplay wise. I've always liked hybrid armies because they give you the tactical advantage. If an enemy comes to you, you can sit back and shoot and then counter-assault just before they hit you, or after they've hit you. If an enemy doesn't come to you, you don't need to try to out-shoot them with your efficiency because your assault units gives you another win condition.

I just don't know what an efficient assault unit for <Imperial> armies is. It'll take some time to go through every <Imperial> unit. Thunderwolves is what I used in the past. I had a brief look at them and they pack a punch with lightning claws but aren't exactly cheap either. I'd really like the unit to have some speed so they can advance if need be, instead of being relegated to purely "wait here and assault if something comes here" duty. Terminators, because of their teleport strike, are something that need to be mathhammered.

I haven't gotten around to checking but I heard assassins are really cheat and solid not. No limit to the number you can take either. maybe a half dozen of these could help?

 Therion wrote:
I just don't know what an efficient assault unit for <Imperial> armies is...

I'm hoping that Bullgryns are at least not horrible in terms of efficiency. Can take orders, get good mauls and mix slab/brute shields to counter both high and low AP weaponry. They also gain the benefits of priests, commissars and all the other buff units we can use, unlike things such as terminators.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


I'm taking one manticore. seems like a solid objective campers behind/in some heavy cover in your back field. It also is good at throwing shots at the enemies units that fulfill a similar role to its own.

Can't see any fault in that logic. It's a tactical advantage to have unit(s) that fire indirectly, and if they're points efficient, even better.

Well I also need to take some variety for sanity sake, I love scions and Tprimes but lol, I can't be that guy...

Yep. Someone will be that guy though. In fact, someone will be the guy with nothing but grav chuting Plasma Scions that super-charge on first turn.

I'll have a mix of all types of stuff as well. But only the good stuff. We just have to go through everything with a calculator to see what our options are.

Well I was discussing this with my brother, who loves hordes lol so he is happy right now. He made a solid point, if the enemy has a decent screen, the scions only army is screwed. Or take for example orks. I can get 300 shoota boys for only 1800 pts So you need to mix in some primes and maybe a counter assault unit IMO. I actually think orks are the best army now. Was thinking that initial conclusion would change but so far nothing is telling me so. They are in a very strong spot.

You're absolutely right. The counter assault unit is something that I'd prefer, both visually and gameplay wise. I've always liked hybrid armies because they give you the tactical advantage. If an enemy comes to you, you can sit back and shoot and then counter-assault just before they hit you, or after they've hit you. If an enemy doesn't come to you, you don't need to try to out-shoot them with your efficiency because your assault units gives you another win condition.

I just don't know what an efficient assault unit for <Imperial> armies is. It'll take some time to go through every <Imperial> unit. Thunderwolves is what I used in the past. I had a brief look at them and they pack a punch with lightning claws but aren't exactly cheap either. I'd really like the unit to have some speed so they can advance if need be, instead of being relegated to purely "wait here and assault if something comes here" duty. Terminators, because of their teleport strike, are something that need to be mathhammered.

I haven't gotten around to checking but I heard assassins are really cheat and solid not. No limit to the number you can take either. maybe a half dozen of these could help?

Yup. I was always planning on having one Culexus, depending on how the meta shapes up. 85 points and he stops Horror units from manifesting Smite completely, and puts a dent in good psykers chances as well. On top of that, he shoots and fights decently enough. People need 6's to hit him both with shooting and close combat, and he has 5 wounds. I wonder what kind of tarpit a couple of these could make, since people can't hit them.

Eversor is the actual fighter, and dirt cheap too. 70 points for a guy with 6 wounds, a bunch of special rules, and 8 attacks with good close combat weapons on the charge. A couple of these could do the trick too.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Bret should use numbers and facts to make his arguments rather then making an argument from authority based on his win in an edition where nobody really respects winning that much due to how busted it was. His leman russ comment is just wrong. He didn't even pick a good load out. 51 pts just in HF's lol."

I agree, but neither he nor Master of Ordinance uses numbers. Without numbers, I know whom I'm going with.

Go with neither, I can't even count how many times Bret has claimed he had things figured out and was wrong. He usually wins based on tournament format flaws like time. I mean he is called slow play Bret now by a fair amount of opponents. I think in the LVO final his opponent literally played for maybe 15 minutes while Bret took over and hour...

Why bother even playing at that point?

 Therion wrote:

You're absolutely right. The counter assault unit is something that I'd prefer, both visually and gameplay wise. I've always liked hybrid armies because they give you the tactical advantage. If an enemy comes to you, you can sit back and shoot and then counter-assault just before they hit you, or after they've hit you. If an enemy doesn't come to you, you don't need to try to out-shoot them with your efficiency because your assault units gives you another win condition.

I just don't know what an efficient assault unit for <Imperial> armies is. It'll take some time to go through every <Imperial> unit. Thunderwolves is what I used in the past. I had a brief look at them and they pack a punch with lightning claws but aren't exactly cheap either. I'd really like the unit to have some speed so they can advance if need be, instead of being relegated to purely "wait here and assault if something comes here" duty. Terminators, because of their teleport strike, are something that need to be mathhammered also.

May I suggest something from the Mechanicus to fill that role ?

The file I attached is the profiles for the Sicarians, the Infiltrators cost 130 pts/5 guys for the Taser Goads and Flechette Blasters loadout. I can tell you the costs of the other loadouts and the ones from the Ruststalker if you want.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Go with neither, I can't even count how many times Bret has claimed he had things figured out and was wrong. He usually wins based on tournament format flaws like time. I mean he is called slow play Bret now by a fair amount of opponents. I think in the LVO final his opponent literally played for maybe 15 minutes while Bret took over and hour...

Wait, major tournaments don't use something like round timers to stop slow play? That seems really open to abuse.

Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

So he is 85 points, eversore is 70 and much killier but he will definitely die to a mob of orks UNLESS you get a cheaky flank and they can't pile in with many, that said I could see running a pair up either flank and pulling a unit in two directs with dual charges each round. You will do more damage and have a similar effect to the callexus. Callexus is still the better choice though. He can't be killed efficiently by your opponent and can repeatedly force them to disengage which essentially loses them a round of actions.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

So he is 85 points, eversore is 70 and much killier but he will definitely die to a mob of orks UNLESS you get a cheaky flank and they can't pile in with many, that said I could see running a pair up either flank and pulling a unit in two directs with dual charges each round. You will do more damage and have a similar effect to the callexus. Callexus is still the better choice though. He can't be killed efficiently by your opponent and can repeatedly force them to disengage which essentially loses them a round of actions.

They're both great. Culexus, while serving as a shooter and a speed bump, totally ruins psychic heavy armies. Eversor has so good weapons and the bio-meltdown that I'm pretty sure point by point he's decent in point by point efficiency.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

You do realize a single 30 choppaboy unit does 120 atks in combat, they get to pile in and consolidate. This does not include if a waaagh banner is in range which is another 30 atks and this does not include shooting with 30 str4 pistols their next shooting phase. Why would they fall back with leadership 30 and falling back doesn't stop shooting?

 Therion wrote:

You're absolutely right. The counter assault unit is something that I'd prefer, both visually and gameplay wise. I've always liked hybrid armies because they give you the tactical advantage. If an enemy comes to you, you can sit back and shoot and then counter-assault just before they hit you, or after they've hit you. If an enemy doesn't come to you, you don't need to try to out-shoot them with your efficiency because your assault units gives you another win condition.

I just don't know what an efficient assault unit for <Imperial> armies is. It'll take some time to go through every <Imperial> unit. Thunderwolves is what I used in the past. I had a brief look at them and they pack a punch with lightning claws but aren't exactly cheap either. I'd really like the unit to have some speed so they can advance if need be, instead of being relegated to purely "wait here and assault if something comes here" duty. Terminators, because of their teleport strike, are something that need to be mathhammered also.

Death Company seem to be pretty hitty for the points. Rerolls struff with Lemartes, mobile with the jump packs, lots of weapon options, and Black Rage makes them a little more survivable than normal MEQs. They're not quite the beasts in HtH that Berserkers are, but they're pretty solid.

I'm planning to take a look at GK Interceptors too, but I doubt they'll be as effiicient, or even efficient period. Terminators are also something I'll be looking at. I think DS is very much the way to go rather than transports (read Pods) and Teminators do pack a punch (and I like the RF Storrmbolters).

 Trickstick wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
For heavy weapon teams. They are specialized, but work very well for what they do. In the AM army, they are pretty much the peak of efficiency for the LC, ML, AC, Mortar or HB as your entry cost is 4 points per weapon.
If you needed to add some extra anti-armor into your list, throwing in a squad or two of these is a bonus. Extra Mortar would help to clear out hordes. At 27 points for 3 mortar squads they are dirt cheap too.

With the split fire changes, along with the wound allocation changes, I think that mixed HWSs are really the way to go. Put a ML/LC along with 2 HB/Mortar. You can allocate to a cheaper weapon, unlike a squad of 3 LC where they can reduce fire power with 1 kill. You can split fire much more efficiently, shooting 1 LC at a time instead of trying to guess how many are needed out of your 3. You can spread your LCs around a larger area, instead of all in one space that can be hidden from.

Mixed squads are really the way to go. I would put LCs in infantry squads to keep them safe, but then you are giving up better orders for frfsrf and you will get into melee much quicker too.

I think mortars get their own squads, but I do like mixing Heavy Bolters in with Lascannons or Missile Launchers. The mortars don't have to worry about LOS, so they can occupy less useful real estate and still contribute maximally. Additionally, since they can shoot almost anywhere, they are pretty flexible in their target, so you can fire last and see where they're needed the most.

3 Hvy Squads with HBs and orders enough to reroll all of them every turn is less than 200 pts. Efficient? I dunno, probably not like the TP, but that's a special case.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Therion wrote:
I just don't know what an efficient assault unit for <Imperial> armies is...

I'm hoping that Bullgryns are at least not horrible in terms of efficiency. Can take orders, get good mauls and mix slab/brute shields to counter both high and low AP weaponry. They also gain the benefits of priests, commissars and all the other buff units we can use, unlike things such as terminators.

Bullgryns, Ogryns, and Ratlings don't have the <Regiment> keyword. They do have the Militarum Auxilia keyword, though. Does this count as their Regiment, as Militarum Tempestus does for Scions? I'm thinking it does, so the issuing officer must have that Regiment keyword as well. The rules say you can't make <Regiment> be Militarum Tempestus, but I think you could take an officer and make their regiment be Militarum Auxilia, essentially a liaison officer with the weirdos, which is well supported in the fluff.

This is worthwhile, I think, because the Ogryn variants seem like they can really make use of the orders. Both Move! Move! Move! And Fix Bayonets! are pretty strong for supporting the big guys.

gungo wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

You do realize a single 30 choppaboy unit does 120 atks in combat, they get to pile in and consolidate. This does not include if a waaagh banner is in range which is another 30 atks and this does not include shooting with 30 str4 pistols their next shooting phase. Why would they fall back with leadership 30 and falling back doesn't stop shooting?

I bolded the part your clearly missed in my post. A base is 1" your getting a max of 10 orks when the assassin charges in after you pile in. good luck with that.

BTW your gonna want to mix your ork boys for this reason, better to get more shots in some cases especially when your never getting a full strength mob within melee range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Therion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

So he is 85 points, eversore is 70 and much killier but he will definitely die to a mob of orks UNLESS you get a cheaky flank and they can't pile in with many, that said I could see running a pair up either flank and pulling a unit in two directs with dual charges each round. You will do more damage and have a similar effect to the callexus. Callexus is still the better choice though. He can't be killed efficiently by your opponent and can repeatedly force them to disengage which essentially loses them a round of actions.

They're both great. Culexus, while serving as a shooter and a speed bump, totally ruins psychic heavy armies. Eversor has so good weapons and the bio-meltdown that I'm pretty sure point by point he's decent in point by point efficiency.

Yea I might run all but the calledus, she was always my least favorite. I think it's the most flexible, charge them in on either flank of a mob and split their pile ins where they are thinest. Vindicare can pop support characters or force them inside vehicles making their buffs go away either way. I imagine a pair of vindicares will kill most characters quickly. Luckily tempestors are expendable themselves

Biophysical wrote:
Bullgryns, Ogryns, and Ratlings don't have the <Regiment> keyword. They do have the Militarum Auxilia keyword, though. Does this count as their Regiment, as Militarum Tempestus does for Scions? I'm thinking it does, so the issuing officer must have that Regiment keyword as well. The rules say you can't make <Regiment> be Militarum Tempestus, but I think you could take an officer and make their regiment be Militarum Auxilia, essentially a liaison officer with the weirdos, which is well supported in the fluff.

This is worthwhile, I think, because the Ogryn variants seem like they can really make use of the orders. Both Move! Move! Move! And Fix Bayonets! are pretty strong for supporting the big guys.

I hadn't spotted that. I think that the auxilia thing could work, but it is definitely gamey and not intended to work like that. I'll just avoid doing it.

 Trickstick wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
Bullgryns, Ogryns, and Ratlings don't have the <Regiment> keyword. They do have the Militarum Auxilia keyword, though. Does this count as their Regiment, as Militarum Tempestus does for Scions? I'm thinking it does, so the issuing officer must have that Regiment keyword as well. The rules say you can't make <Regiment> be Militarum Tempestus, but I think you could take an officer and make their regiment be Militarum Auxilia, essentially a liaison officer with the weirdos, which is well supported in the fluff.

This is worthwhile, I think, because the Ogryn variants seem like they can really make use of the orders. Both Move! Move! Move! And Fix Bayonets! are pretty strong for supporting the big guys.

I hadn't spotted that. I think that the auxilia thing could work, but it is definitely gamey and not intended to work like that. I'll just avoid doing it.

RAW it works, and it's in synch with the background. A single liaison officer feels totally okay to me. Making your whole army of guys "Auxilia" so all your officers can issue orders to Ogryns feels off. I guess if GW rules that "Auxilia" isn't a Regiment, there's no orders one way or another.

 Red Corsair wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

You do realize a single 30 choppaboy unit does 120 atks in combat, they get to pile in and consolidate. This does not include if a waaagh banner is in range which is another 30 atks and this does not include shooting with 30 str4 pistols their next shooting phase. Why would they fall back with leadership 30 and falling back doesn't stop shooting?

I bolded the part your clearly missed in my post. A base is 1" your getting a max of 10 orks when the assassin charges in after you pile in. good luck with that.

BTW your gonna want to mix your ork boys for this reason, better to get more shots in some cases especially when your never getting a full strength mob within melee range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Therion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

So he is 85 points, eversore is 70 and much killier but he will definitely die to a mob of orks UNLESS you get a cheaky flank and they can't pile in with many, that said I could see running a pair up either flank and pulling a unit in two directs with dual charges each round. You will do more damage and have a similar effect to the callexus. Callexus is still the better choice though. He can't be killed efficiently by your opponent and can repeatedly force them to disengage which essentially loses them a round of actions.

They're both great. Culexus, while serving as a shooter and a speed bump, totally ruins psychic heavy armies. Eversor has so good weapons and the bio-meltdown that I'm pretty sure point by point he's decent in point by point efficiency.

Yea I might run all but the calledus, she was always my least favorite. I think it's the most flexible, charge them in on either flank of a mob and split their pile ins where they are thinest. Vindicare can pop support characters or force them inside vehicles making their buffs go away either way. I imagine a pair of vindicares will kill most characters quickly. Luckily tempestors are expendable themselves

I believe its not 1in from the target its 1 in from a model in contact with the target. try it at home you can get ALOT more models in range with at least 3 layers of orks. So the culexus dies in maybe tops 2 turns with 2 rounds of combat each turn and a round of shooting. Not a huge deal with a squad that costs 150.

The culexus is a beatstick still. But you act as if an ork player is going to flee combat with a squad of orks vs them and that wont happen.

Biophysical wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
Bullgryns, Ogryns, and Ratlings don't have the <Regiment> keyword. They do have the Militarum Auxilia keyword, though. Does this count as their Regiment, as Militarum Tempestus does for Scions? I'm thinking it does, so the issuing officer must have that Regiment keyword as well. The rules say you can't make <Regiment> be Militarum Tempestus, but I think you could take an officer and make their regiment be Militarum Auxilia, essentially a liaison officer with the weirdos, which is well supported in the fluff.

This is worthwhile, I think, because the Ogryn variants seem like they can really make use of the orders. Both Move! Move! Move! And Fix Bayonets! are pretty strong for supporting the big guys.

I hadn't spotted that. I think that the auxilia thing could work, but it is definitely gamey and not intended to work like that. I'll just avoid doing it.

RAW it works, and it's in synch with the background. A single liaison officer feels totally okay to me. Making your whole army of guys "Auxilia" so all your officers can issue orders to Ogryns feels off. I guess if GW rules that "Auxilia" isn't a Regiment, there's no orders one way or another.

My first impression is 'how rules-lawyer-y', but honestly, it does fit with the background, and you're no longer able to give the rest of your army orders with that officer so it's not like it's consequence-free. I kinda like it!

What do people think of using Conscripts as a second-line unit to use against aggressive charging? Let a couple of Infantry squads or even another unit of Conscripts take a charge and die or fall back, step forward into rapid fire range with forty or so poorly-trained expendables, and use First Rank Fire on them.

Sure, it's just 5+ lasguns, but it's a lot of lasguns.

gungo wrote:
The culexus is a beatstick still. But you act as if an ork player is going to flee combat with a squad of orks vs them and that wont happen.

I don't understand why you would use assassins against Ork boyz. Wait for a point in the first 3 turns for a warboss to expose itself, then _Assassinate_ him. An eversor can charge 3d6, which is a 74% chance of making a 9" charge. 8 attacks, hitting on 2+ and 4 pistol shots with rerolls to wound. Now, I don't know if this can kill the top level characters in armies but you should be able to rip out some section of their buffing abilities. The callidus can do something similar with the d6+3 infiltrate distance.

After you do this, they have to divert some section of their army to deal with you, which can really stall an advance. Even if the assassin just takes pressure away from one side of your line for a turn, that can be enough to withstand the tide.

gungo wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

You do realize a single 30 choppaboy unit does 120 atks in combat, they get to pile in and consolidate. This does not include if a waaagh banner is in range which is another 30 atks and this does not include shooting with 30 str4 pistols their next shooting phase. Why would they fall back with leadership 30 and falling back doesn't stop shooting?

I bolded the part your clearly missed in my post. A base is 1" your getting a max of 10 orks when the assassin charges in after you pile in. good luck with that.

BTW your gonna want to mix your ork boys for this reason, better to get more shots in some cases especially when your never getting a full strength mob within melee range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Therion wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Hmmm, callexus does meh damage but is a solid speed bump since you hit him on 6+ now and he has 5 wounds with a 4++ Essentially he can answer the green tide equation since he can charge them and force them to fall back, hence disallowing them from shooting and assaulting. Rinse repeat.

It takes 120 strength 4 attacks to kill him... you have a melee range of 1"... I think I solved it....

So he is 85 points, eversore is 70 and much killier but he will definitely die to a mob of orks UNLESS you get a cheaky flank and they can't pile in with many, that said I could see running a pair up either flank and pulling a unit in two directs with dual charges each round. You will do more damage and have a similar effect to the callexus. Callexus is still the better choice though. He can't be killed efficiently by your opponent and can repeatedly force them to disengage which essentially loses them a round of actions.

They're both great. Culexus, while serving as a shooter and a speed bump, totally ruins psychic heavy armies. Eversor has so good weapons and the bio-meltdown that I'm pretty sure point by point he's decent in point by point efficiency.

Yea I might run all but the calledus, she was always my least favorite. I think it's the most flexible, charge them in on either flank of a mob and split their pile ins where they are thinest. Vindicare can pop support characters or force them inside vehicles making their buffs go away either way. I imagine a pair of vindicares will kill most characters quickly. Luckily tempestors are expendable themselves

I believe its not 1in from the target its 1 in from a model in contact with the target. try it at home you can get ALOT more models in range with at least 3 layers of orks. So the culexus dies in maybe tops 2 turns with 2 rounds of combat each turn and a round of shooting. Not a huge deal with a squad that costs 150.

The culexus is a beatstick still. But you act as if an ork player is going to flee combat with a squad of orks vs them and that wont happen.

No it definitely is 1" range to enemies, check the rules. I think your hung up on rules from older editions, which is understandable, I keep forgetting things like vehicles overwatching and flamers now doing d6 auto hits on overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:

gungo wrote:
The culexus is a beatstick still. But you act as if an ork player is going to flee combat with a squad of orks vs them and that wont happen.

I don't understand why you would use assassins against Ork boyz. Wait for a point in the first 3 turns for a warboss to expose itself, then _Assassinate_ him. An eversor can charge 3d6, which is a 74% chance of making a 9" charge. 8 attacks, hitting on 2+ and 4 pistol shots with rerolls to wound. Now, I don't know if this can kill the top level characters in armies but you should be able to rip out some section of their buffing abilities. The callidus can do something similar with the d6+3 infiltrate distance.

After you do this, they have to divert some section of their army to deal with you, which can really stall an advance. Even if the assassin just takes pressure away from one side of your line for a turn, that can be enough to withstand the tide.

I would use a callexus to charge the flanks of hordes to guarantee his survival forcing them to remain locked in their turn or fall back to shoot and charge him with something else. Run the math yourself he takes 120 s4 attacks to kill, and as I said, your dreaming if you think your getting that many attacks in range with 1". That one turn gives me time to reposition and target another flank. Plus nothing is stopping me from running multiple assassins.

Just because GW wants to use them for character assassination doesn't mean I can't repurpose them. The best part is that fact that I can kill enemy characters if I get the chance instead, meaning they aren't bad against anyone.

Has anyone had any luck with good ideas for Sentinels (either type)?

I'm not sold on the Scout move for most heavy weapons, and having a -1 modified for moving with no flanks to exploit means the speed and movement is only important to close range weaponry. 52 poijts gets you a Heavy Flamer that is probably in range on turn 1. 9" Scout + 9" move + Advance is pretty far for putting autohitting flamers into people. Heavy Flamers are solid in that role. If you don't Advance, but have someone in charge range, you can charge, prevent someone from shooting, and if they fall back, hit them with flamers. If you get charged, it's a pretty mean overwatch. It's less about raw firepower (10.5 S5ap-1 hits per turn for 156 points) than about disrupting enemy options.