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Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 ThePie wrote:
Is it worth upgrading normal russes to tank commanders for 35 pts? They cant command other characters so with pask and 2 commanders thier orders goes to waste (and i hate being wasteful hehe), on the other hand they help fill up HQ slots, which makes it easier to get thoose delicous command points.


The BS is nice just buy itself. You could take 2 normal russes to take orders from them, put then you have a 5 russ list and it is pretty bloated with low damage units.

 ThePie wrote:
And how many Heavy Weapon Teams do you think is enough? I was thinking something like 3 Heavy Bolter Squads, 3 Las Cannon Squads and 3 Mortar Squads


No idea! I'm having a hard time writing lists right now, so many things I want to try out. Also, I am really having trouble deciding how many infantry squads to take. It is all well and good dreaming about Scion drops, ratling fire and manticore volleys, but without the core Infantry squads to absorb charges and take wounds then everything else will just fold like paper.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/03 00:50:16


The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

I think you'd be better off with a limited castle - deny as much of the deployment zone as possible and use more durable units (tanks maybe) on the weak flank. If you're more densely packed you're not as vulnerable to losing a single model. Just not too close so as to make getting sucked into HtH too easily.

As for the HW Teams, I think it all depends on your build. They are super cheap, and its not too hard to get enough officers in a list to get rerolls for almost all of them. Personally, I like ACs and HBs for those guys. It depends on what kind of dakka you have elsewhere I suppose. MLs would be a good all-round choice too, especially with rerolls TH.

He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in ca
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





Biophysical wrote:
Has anyone had any luck with good ideas for Sentinels (either type)?

I'm not sold on the Scout move for most heavy weapons, and having a -1 modified for moving with no flanks to exploit means the speed and movement is only important to close range weaponry. 52 poijts gets you a Heavy Flamer that is probably in range on turn 1. 9" Scout + 9" move + Advance is pretty far for putting autohitting flamers into people. Heavy Flamers are solid in that role. If you don't Advance, but have someone in charge range, you can charge, prevent someone from shooting, and if they fall back, hit them with flamers. If you get charged, it's a pretty mean overwatch. It's less about raw firepower (10.5 S5ap-1 hits per turn for 156 points) than about disrupting enemy options.


This is exactly how I was thinking of using them.

 Red Corsair wrote:


I think rough riders are much better personally but that said I could see a stalk ML sentinel as something for objective grabbing. 9" scout plus 9" move + advance is a solid move. Just don't expect it to do much damage or survive long vs main line troops anymore.


Scount sentinels will survive much longer vs "main line troops" such as those using bolters. They have double the wounds as well as a save now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Trickstick wrote:
Mechanised suffers from the fact that moving vehicles lose BS. It just makes keeping them still much more tempting. Even sentinels are better off standing still. About the only vehicle I could see myself moving are the hellhounds using flamers and chem cannons, because they auto hit.


And this is the reason the Heavy Flamer is going to be a key component of mechanized lists. I'm converting my Chimeras to dual HFs as we speak. Is it pricey? Yes, but you are definitely getting what you pay for. You ignore all penalties to hit, including movement and damage. You have a very scary overwatch. You ignore mediocre BS. You have the potential to do heavy damage to both single models as well as squads. The damage potential of 2 heavy flamers on a chimera is so far ahead of any of the other combinations it isn't even funny. Since the only reason to buy a Chimera now is to drive forwards, as they are useless as bunkers, the 8" range won't be much of an issue. They are going to work very well with Hellhounds, as the Hellhounds can takle any double wound squads while the Chimeras surge into single wound units.

 Trickstick wrote:


No idea! I'm having a hard time writing lists right now, so many things I want to try out. Also, I am really having trouble deciding how many infantry squads to take. It is all well and good dreaming about Scion drops, ratling fire and manticore volleys, but without the core Infantry squads to absorb charges and take wounds then everything else will just fold like paper.


Remember, vehicles can absorb charges now just as well as an infantry squad, if not better in many cases. Of course, it all comes down to points. Sticking with the example of the dual HF Chimera, it will absorb charges much better than a squad of infantry but of course it costs much more. However it can be anywhere you need it to be and packs an overwatch so strong that many units won't want to charge it. Is that worth the increased point cost? I guess that remains to be seen.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/06/03 03:43:21


 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Georgia

So by no means am I a super competitive guy but I figured I'd take a shot at a list up to 1850. Be prepared thought this might be... rough, here's what I've go so far

---HQs---
Straken 90
Tempestor Prime 40
- Command rod
Company Commander 30

---TROOPS---
Infantry Squad 48
- Heavy bolter
Infantry Squad 48
- Heavy bolter
Infantry Squad 48
- Heavy bolter
Infantry Squad 48
- Heavy bolter
Infantry Squad 48
- Heavy bolter
Infantry Squad 48
- Heavy bolter

---ELITES---
Command Squad 34
-Voxcaster
-Regimental Standard
Tempestus Command Squad 62
- Voxcaster
- Plasmagun x3
Tempestus Command Squad 64
- Plasmaguns x4
Commissar 30
Commissar 30

---FAST ATTACK---
Armored Sentinel x3 171
- Autocannon x3
- Sentinel chainsaw x3
Armored Sentinel x3 171
- Autocannon x3
- Sentinel chainsaw x3
Armored Sentinel x3 171
- Autocannon x3
- Sentinel chainsaw x3

---HEAVY SUPPORT---
Heavy weapons Squad 72
- Lascannon x3
Heavy weapons Squad 72
- Lascannon x3
Heavy weapons Squad 72
- Lascannon x3


The idea is command squad acts as ablative wounds to Straken and Company Commader while boosting order range withe the vox. Meanwhile the standard boosts commissars to Ld9 to mitigate any battleshock on the infantry squads as they use the massed lasgun and HB fire for light infantry or hordes. Tempestus drop in for priority targets, Sentinels gun for med toughness while HWTs take down hard targets. worse case scenario Straken can boost guardsmen with +1attack while being pretty resilient himself, I even Though of a Bullgryn bodyguard unit with slabshields and mauls for 5 S7 AP-1 attacks on a charge with W3 and a 2+save.
Atm the list totals up to about 1397 I'm totally open any suggestions


Vorradis 75th "Crimson Cavaliers" 8.7k

The enemies of Mankind may employ dark sciences or alien weapons beyond Humanity's ken, but such deviance comes to naught in the face of honest human intolerance back by a sufficient number of guns. 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Here's a thought:

Armored Sentinel + Plasma Cannon is 55.

A Plasma Sponson Excecutioner with hull Heavy Bolter is 132+15+15+20+8 = 190 points

The executioner is 25.3 points per plasma shot.
The sentinel is 27.5 points per plasma shot.

The Sentinel has a lower toughness, but is 9.2 points per wound as opposed to the Russ, which is 15.8 points per wound.

Obviously, there are other differences. The Executioner's turret can move without loss of accuracy. The Executioner can get orders from Tank Commanders. The Sentinel can be taken in more granular quanties, however, and it's a Fast Attack slot instead of Heavy Support, if that matters for your list.

Now, if you don't rate the Executioner, you don't rate the Plasma Sentinel, probably, but I think there's not an obvious winner if you're interested in Plasma Cannons.
   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






Here's my 2000 points army based on the brainstorming last night. It'll still change a lot:

BRIGADE DETACHMENT + 9 COMMAND POINTS

HQ:
-Company Commander, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
-Company Commander, Laspistol, Chainsword
-Company Commander, Laspistol, Chainsword
ELITES
-Eversor Assassin
-Eversor Assassin
-Eversor Assassin
TROOPS
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
Dedicated Transports
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
FAST ATTACK
-Scout Sentinel, Heavy Flamer
-Scout Sentinel, Heavy Flamer
-Scout Sentinel, Heavy Flamer
HEAVY SUPPORT
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars
-Manticore, Storm Eagle Rockets, Heavy Bolter

Total Points: 2000
Total Models: 82
Total Wounds: 189
Command Points: 12

It's pretty great in my opinion, considering there's some tax involved to get all the command points. Also, the math really supports this army. Everything outshoots or outfights almost every other choice that could've been taken instead of it point by point.

The Sentinel configuration I'm most unsure about. They are the tax, but the command points make the Eversors very likely to reach their charges when they appear.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/03 04:50:53


 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Since you're running Scions in all your troops slots, you'll probably want to re-shuffle your points to replace your Company Commanders with Tempestor Primes.

Company Commanders issue orders to units that they share a <regiment> keyword with. Their <regiment> keyword cannot be Tempestus. The <regement> keyword of a Scion is always Tempestus. I'm sure you can see where the problem is there.

If you want to give orders to Scions, you need a Tempestor Prime. He's the only unit that can do it.
   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






 ross-128 wrote:
Since you're running Scions in all your troops slots, you'll probably want to re-shuffle your points to replace your Company Commanders with Tempestor Primes.

Company Commanders issue orders to units that they share a <regiment> keyword with. Their <regiment> keyword cannot be Tempestus. The <regement> keyword of a Scion is always Tempestus. I'm sure you can see where the problem is there.

If you want to give orders to Scions, you need a Tempestor Prime. He's the only unit that can do it.


You're absolutely right. I missed it. Although, the idea was never to give orders to the Scions, but to the Taurox that are deployed more defensively. Well, the idea wasn't really orders at all, more than filling the mandatory HQ slots for as cheap as possible.

It'll be a tough squeeze to replace them all with Tempestor Primes who are a bit more expensive.
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






Sincollector wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:


No it definitely is 1" range to enemies, check the rules. I think your hung up on rules from older editions, which is understandable, I keep forgetting things like vehicles overwatching and flamers now doing d6 auto hits on overwatch.



No, it's definitely within 1" of an enemy model OR 1" of a model from its unit that is within 1" of an enemy model. Looking at it right now. Page 182, Section 5, 3. Choose Targets.


Awesome I am glad I was wrong, makes orks much stronger.

   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





 Therion wrote:
 ross-128 wrote:
Since you're running Scions in all your troops slots, you'll probably want to re-shuffle your points to replace your Company Commanders with Tempestor Primes.

Company Commanders issue orders to units that they share a <regiment> keyword with. Their <regiment> keyword cannot be Tempestus. The <regement> keyword of a Scion is always Tempestus. I'm sure you can see where the problem is there.

If you want to give orders to Scions, you need a Tempestor Prime. He's the only unit that can do it.


You're absolutely right. I missed it. Although, the idea was never to give orders to the Scions, but to the Taurox that are deployed more defensively. Well, the idea wasn't really orders at all, more than filling the mandatory HQ slots for as cheap as possible.

It'll be a tough squeeze to replace them all with Tempestor Primes who are a bit more expensive.


On the bright side, three Primes plus the Scions is still less than half your units. So the Tempestor Primes can stay in reserves, and deep strike with the Scions. It's also conveniently enough to give re-rolls to all the Scions you took, as long as they have their (free) command stick. Overcharge re-rolls for everyone!
   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






 ross-128 wrote:
 Therion wrote:
 ross-128 wrote:
Since you're running Scions in all your troops slots, you'll probably want to re-shuffle your points to replace your Company Commanders with Tempestor Primes.

Company Commanders issue orders to units that they share a <regiment> keyword with. Their <regiment> keyword cannot be Tempestus. The <regement> keyword of a Scion is always Tempestus. I'm sure you can see where the problem is there.

If you want to give orders to Scions, you need a Tempestor Prime. He's the only unit that can do it.


You're absolutely right. I missed it. Although, the idea was never to give orders to the Scions, but to the Taurox that are deployed more defensively. Well, the idea wasn't really orders at all, more than filling the mandatory HQ slots for as cheap as possible.

It'll be a tough squeeze to replace them all with Tempestor Primes who are a bit more expensive.


On the bright side, three Primes plus the Scions is still less than half your units. So the Tempestor Primes can stay in reserves, and deep strike with the Scions. It's also conveniently enough to give re-rolls to all the Scions you took, as long as they have their (free) command stick. Overcharge re-rolls for everyone!


Yeah, I can do that. I just need to drop the Manticore and replace it with heavy weapons squads and the Tempestor Primes will fit in. The extra points between the Manticore and a heavy weapons squad, either buys a fourth assassin, or more heavy weapons squads.

Alternatively, here's a setup with just 6 command points instead of 12, but it has no tax units, and there's been some changes:

BATTALLION Detachment:

HQ
-Commissar Yarrick
-Tempestor Prime, Tempestus Command Rod, Power Axe
ELITES
-Eversor Assassin
-Eversor Assassin
-Eversor Assassin
-Eversor Assassin
TROOPS
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
Dedicated Transports
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
HEAVY SUPPORT:
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars
-Manticore, Storm Eagle Rockets, Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter

Total Points: 2000

This list makes sense from the command perspective. There's still enough re-rolls for the crucial stuff. Yarrick bubble buffs the firebase at home, while the other HQ grav drops with the Scions. It also has considerably more close combat power, and it's a lot stronger vs Orks.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/03 05:54:12


 
   
Made in ca
Rookie Pilot




Lotusland

I don't think the standard works in the Commissars as they lack the <regiment> keyword.

Dispatches from the Miniature Front - my blog about miniatures and things 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

Jesus after reading some of the other indexes today I'm kind of wondering what the play testers were smoking when they gave us 7pt plasma guns and 5pt plasma pistols.

I would not get too used to these prices sticking around. If GW is committed to balance like they say, we'll be seeing a price rise pretty quickly. I think they gave us a discount because of poor accuracy on regular troops but forgot that we primarily bring these kind of guns on 3+ models. Either way we may as well be "Codex Plasma" right now. We can overcharge with such laughably small risk it's kind of insulting. I would also expect an update saying HWT's go up to 8pts per base, but honestly they'll still be great even at 24pts base for the unit before weapons.

I'm not sure yet if we're going to be dominating tournaments, but it definitely seems like we have all the tools we'll need to be a top contender. I just don't see other armies having the weight of fire to shift an infantry horde army and at the same time having the tools to deal with "start collecting Stormtroopers" doom force. Both are terrifying for completely different reasons but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. The only concern I have with tournaments is if they set the points limit stupidly high (say 2000pts) and yet limit the amount of detachments you can take. If that happens it'll hurt our options a bit, but not be the end of the world.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/03 10:38:25


'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

@Therion - yeah, that looks about how it should. If the math fits right? My major problem with that list is aesthetic. I effing hate the Taurox models with a grim passion. They're awful. I don't think I could bring my self to either buy or paint one.

Other than that I think it looks about as top drawer as 8th lists get at this point. *soft golf clapping*

He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in us
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Jesus after reading some of the other indexes today I'm kind of wondering what the play testers were smoking when they gave us 7pt plasma guns and 5pt plasma pistols.

I would not get too used to these prices sticking around. If GW is committed to balance like they say, we'll be seeing a price rise pretty quickly. I think they gave us a discount because of poor accuracy on regular troops but forgot that we primarily bring these kind of guns on 3+ models. Either way we may as well be "Codex Plasma" right now. We can overcharge with such laughably small risk it's kind of insulting. I would also expect an update saying HWT's go up to 8pts per base, but honestly they'll still be great even at 24pts base for the unit before weapons.

I'm not sure yet if we're going to be dominating tournaments, but it definitely seems like we have all the tools we'll need to be a top contender. I just don't see other armies having the weight of fire to shift an infantry horde army and at the same time having the tools to deal with "start collecting Stormtroopers" doom force. Both are terrifying for completely different reasons but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. The only concern I have with tournaments is if they set the points limit stupidly high (say 2000pts) and yet limit the amount of detachments you can take. If that happens it'll hurt our options a bit, but not be the end of the world.


Well the base rules give us 4 detachments to work with, You can probably fill a double set of battalion detachments at 2k points, or at least one with some other detachments filling in for sure.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Yeah, telling people how this and that is 'garbage' and they should just throw their minis into the trash as they're not as efficient as XYZ.

 Peregrine wrote:
So the solution is to lie and pretend that certain options are effective so people will feel better?
 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

By the way, am I right in thinking that we can freely mix and match Imperium stuff now?

e.g. could we have an IG army led by a Tech-Priest Dominus or an Inquisitor?

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 vipoid wrote:
By the way, am I right in thinking that we can freely mix and match Imperium stuff now?

e.g. could we have an IG army led by a Tech-Priest Dominus or an Inquisitor?
yes but the bonus bubbles only work on nearby units with faction keywords. Inquisitor is an exception that works on all Imperials but only leadership.

Battlescribe Catalog Editor - Please report bugs here http://battlescribedata.appspot.com/#/repo/wh40k 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

yes but the bonus bubbles only work on nearby units with faction keywords. Inquisitor is an exception that works on all Imperials but only leadership.


Yeah, I know it wouldn't be optimal or anything.

I was just musing on having my army led by a super tech-priest.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Jesus after reading some of the other indexes today I'm kind of wondering what the play testers were smoking when they gave us 7pt plasma guns and 5pt plasma pistols.

I would not get too used to these prices sticking around. If GW is committed to balance like they say, we'll be seeing a price rise pretty quickly. I think they gave us a discount because of poor accuracy on regular troops but forgot that we primarily bring these kind of guns on 3+ models. Either way we may as well be "Codex Plasma" right now. We can overcharge with such laughably small risk it's kind of insulting. I would also expect an update saying HWT's go up to 8pts per base, but honestly they'll still be great even at 24pts base for the unit before weapons.

I'm not sure yet if we're going to be dominating tournaments, but it definitely seems like we have all the tools we'll need to be a top contender. I just don't see other armies having the weight of fire to shift an infantry horde army and at the same time having the tools to deal with "start collecting Stormtroopers" doom force. Both are terrifying for completely different reasons but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. The only concern I have with tournaments is if they set the points limit stupidly high (say 2000pts) and yet limit the amount of detachments you can take. If that happens it'll hurt our options a bit, but not be the end of the world.


There's a lot of other good stuff in the game than just Scions. Let the meta settle. I'm not sure we'll see a rebalancing of any kind until at least a year when multiple actual codex books are out. They're still selling paper indexes and paper codices and don't want them to be completely worthless due to nonstop patch versions. If and when any kind of adjustments come, it needs to be a similarly massive launch as this one. All the overpriced units (dozens upon dozens of them) adjusted down in price, and some stuff adjusted up.

In fact, they could change these points costs when the AM codex is released, if they want, without having multiple versions of the indexes going around. But like I said, being committed to balance means more than just nerfing something that's good. The AM index has about 15 units that are grossly overpriced for what they do. I'm expecting serious buffs to them whenever something else gets toned down.

Regarding the 7 point plasma, sure it's a good deal, but the same trend is true for all the armies that get plasma. Plasma, especially with the supercharge, is incredibly strong. Space Marines pay 13 points for the gun. I guess Scions could pay 10. In my list it'd be a 72 point increase, but then I'd probably switch a couple squads to volley guns, and then just pay the 40 or so points I need from somewhere. Big deal? The reason the plasmas are so good isn't so much the points cost, it's the fact the gun's statline is better than actual heavy weapons, and it's mobile and doesn't suffer from -1 to hit. A better fix might be toning the super-charge down a bit. Even if it had the same strength and ap as the normal mode, but did twice the wounds, it'd still be worth using in a lot of situations.

But what do I know. I like the Tempestus army. I put an order for six GET STORMTROOPERS boxes, but it looks like I'll have to wait a couple weeks to get them because of availability




This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2017/06/03 11:35:23


 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Jesus after reading some of the other indexes today I'm kind of wondering what the play testers were smoking when they gave us 7pt plasma guns and 5pt plasma pistols.

I would not get too used to these prices sticking around. If GW is committed to balance like they say, we'll be seeing a price rise pretty quickly. I think they gave us a discount because of poor accuracy on regular troops but forgot that we primarily bring these kind of guns on 3+ models. Either way we may as well be "Codex Plasma" right now. We can overcharge with such laughably small risk it's kind of insulting. I would also expect an update saying HWT's go up to 8pts per base, but honestly they'll still be great even at 24pts base for the unit before weapons.

I'm not sure yet if we're going to be dominating tournaments, but it definitely seems like we have all the tools we'll need to be a top contender. I just don't see other armies having the weight of fire to shift an infantry horde army and at the same time having the tools to deal with "start collecting Stormtroopers" doom force. Both are terrifying for completely different reasons but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. The only concern I have with tournaments is if they set the points limit stupidly high (say 2000pts) and yet limit the amount of detachments you can take. If that happens it'll hurt our options a bit, but not be the end of the world.


Yeah, after seeing the capabilities of plasma in the previews, and how armored stuff was increasing in price, I imagined we'd see plasma priced at a premium level, because it was so strong against everything. Then I saw the army list, and saw how we could easily ignore the only downside of plasma (which hit guard much less than elite armies). Then I'm looking through the points. I see the Grenade Launcher for 5, and think plasma seems fair for 15-ish. Then I see 7, and thought that the must have accidentally dropped a 1 from before the 7.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 Fenris-77 wrote:
@Therion - yeah, that looks about how it should. If the math fits right? My major problem with that list is aesthetic. I effing hate the Taurox models with a grim passion. They're awful. I don't think I could bring my self to either buy or paint one.


Is it mainly the weird tracks? There are some decent options to deal with that:
Spoiler:


Also, the FW Index index (double index!) is on their website:
Spoiler:


I think that I am going to wait until I know the vulture's points to do much list building. It is my favorite model and one of my best painted, it would be a shame to drop it.

Also, I find it funny how everyone is pretty much talking about starting a full tempestus army. (-:



The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






The Vendetta with 6 lascannons might be a pretty nice firebase if it's not terribly overpriced. WIth Forgeworld, you never know, but I'm eagerly waiting for the indexes to be released.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Who needs tempestus when you can just field an army of DKOK grenadiers they have carapace and hotshot guns. No volley guns but tons of plasma bits too.

And yes my sentinel powerlifter is back baby
Given the fact gene cults can use any Astra vehicle now this model would be a great looking conversion for someone to do.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/03 12:38:37


 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





I'm starting to try and get my head around new rules some more. Vehicles have changed so I starting thinking about mechanized forces. I think there's some real benefits to combined arms at this point. We're used to thinking about bubble-wrapping with infantry. This edition has real benefits to armor-wrapping. Light armor now can stand up pretty well to close combat, so you can deploy armor in a defensive position to block first turn assault against more vulnerable infantry.

The movement and force protection available also seem useful, but without more experience it's hard to gauge what sort of points are optimal.

Unfortunately, the Taurox Prime isn't an option for non-Tempestus, which hurts regular guard, and your ability to field larger infantry forces. The Taurox has decent firepower and a pretty okay cost. The Chimera is a little tougher, and a 12 man capacity is really useful for protecting a pair of Special Weapon Squads, or a Veteran squad and some characters. Aside from the Prime, though, I wonder what loadout is optimal.

I'm wondering if a punchy squad can tag-team with its transport. Say you're facing a first-time assault. The squad is loaded up, and the transport gets assaulted. On your turn, the transport withdraws, losing shooting, but the squad piles out, shoots at close range, and assaults (if that's useful). The squad cant deploy within 1" of an enemy model, but after a 9" charge, that's probably not too hard to do. Alternatively, assault with a different transport to tie an attacking squad up.

On attack, moving in a transport is obviously easier than running on foot, and vehicle assaults let you tie up units that would counter-attack against squishy IG squads.

Any thoughts?
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






 Fenris-77 wrote:
@Therion - yeah, that looks about how it should. If the math fits right? My major problem with that list is aesthetic. I effing hate the Taurox models with a grim passion. They're awful. I don't think I could bring my self to either buy or paint one.

Other than that I think it looks about as top drawer as 8th lists get at this point. *soft golf clapping*






it actually is an awesome model with the drive train swapped out

   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Both of those conversions are worlds better than the original.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

The second one is amazing.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 Therion wrote:
The Vendetta with 6 lascannons might be a pretty nice firebase if it's not terribly overpriced. WIth Forgeworld, you never know, but I'm eagerly waiting for the indexes to be released.


If it is similar points to the Valkyrie then we are looking at 250 (Valkyrie + 6 lasannons). It'll probably get a slight discount for a smaller transport capacity though, so maybe 220-230?

 vipoid wrote:
The second one is amazing.


Pretty nice, although I would prefer the tracks the other way round. Imperial vehicles usually have the tall part at the front.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman






I grabbed a couple of cheap Chimera hulls that I was working on converting into base Tauroxes (Tauroxi? Taurocksicillians?). Should I convert them back to Chimeras or into Primes at this point? The autocannons are decent, but lower rate of fire combined with BS 4+ means they don't have the damage output of primes, though they do have longer range. They just seem so pricey now that they have to pay 30pts for their guns...
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



Nottingham

The vendetta returns, Praise the Emperor! 250 ish pts seems about right.
   
 
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