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Have you guys noticed how insane Ratlings are? 7pts a pop, sniper rifles are very good weapon especially on such cheap platform, they get extra cover save (so they have 4+ in cover), they deploy anywhere over 18" from enemies and they get to move extra 6" when they shoot so they basically have 12" movement as long as they can shoot something.

But few things people dont understand about these little dudes:
-You go first if you deploy first and this DOESNT count in those who "infiltrate". Your army has 5 other units, 8 units of ratlings and 12 units of scions and primes in deepstrike? You do 5 of them and then opponent deploys his army. And then ratlings deploy and you go first with massive alpha. Damn.
-This ability and their cheap cost makes them very good "screens" against deepstriking and outflanking units.
-And the most insane part (which again makes them better screens): they get to move when they shoot. Even in overwatch. Holy poop!

Oh and they have T2, ld5 and sv6+ so they die to stiff breeze and then run away. But who cares they cost 70pts there is plenty more where those came from!

Blightstar wrote:
Have you guys noticed how insane Ratlings are? 7pts a pop, sniper rifles are very good weapon especially on such cheap platform, they get extra cover save (so they have 4+ in cover), they deploy anywhere over 18" from enemies and they get to move extra 6" when they shoot so they basically have 12" movement as long as they can shoot something.

But few things people dont understand about these little dudes:
-You go first if you deploy first and this DOESNT count in those who "infiltrate". Your army has 5 other units, 8 units of ratlings and 12 units of scions and primes in deepstrike? You do 5 of them and then opponent deploys his army. And then ratlings deploy and you go first with massive alpha. Damn.
-This ability and their cheap cost makes them very good "screens" against deepstriking and outflanking units.
-And the most insane part (which again makes them better screens): they get to move when they shoot. Even in overwatch. Holy poop!

Oh and they have T2, ld5 and sv6+ so they die to stiff breeze and then run away. But who cares they cost 70pts there is plenty more where those came from!

Yeah I think they are really great, and look forward to using them. The trick will be keeping them alive.

Holy crap, I did not think about the ability to make a move after an Overwatch move. I wonder if that was intentional.

That definitely sounds interesting. A 6" move could easily ruin a lot of charges.

Biophysical wrote:
Holy crap, I did not think about the ability to make a move after an Overwatch move. I wonder if that was intentional.

Yeah, I had to double check the rules when I read that. But overwatch "...uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required...".

Ratlings got a bit more fun...

Blightstar wrote:
Have you guys noticed how insane Ratlings are? 7pts a pop, sniper rifles are very good weapon especially on such cheap platform, they get extra cover save (so they have 4+ in cover), they deploy anywhere over 18" from enemies and they get to move extra 6" when they shoot so they basically have 12" movement as long as they can shoot something.

But few things people dont understand about these little dudes:
-You go first if you deploy first and this DOESNT count in those who "infiltrate". Your army has 5 other units, 8 units of ratlings and 12 units of scions and primes in deepstrike? You do 5 of them and then opponent deploys his army. And then ratlings deploy and you go first with massive alpha. Damn.
-This ability and their cheap cost makes them very good "screens" against deepstriking and outflanking units.
-And the most insane part (which again makes them better screens): they get to move when they shoot. Even in overwatch. Holy poop!

Oh and they have T2, ld5 and sv6+ so they die to stiff breeze and then run away. But who cares they cost 70pts there is plenty more where those came from!

Yeah, they look pretty brutal against characters and MCs. Especially given how cheap they are.

Ok that's funny declare charge, overwatch, move back another 6in, roll charge dice,
Oh sorry that 7in charge now requires a 13in charge. So sorry you failed your charge.

A decently efficient alternative to Ratlings are Command Squads with Sniper Rifles. You get 4 for 32 points. It's a point more than a Ratling per model, and you lose special rules, but you get higher toughness and better leadership, so you are a little more resilient to fire.

So, I was looking at all the get started + index bundles. I noticed that the Militarum Tempestus one is already gone. I think we may be seeing a top-tier meta-breaking army being forged here. That plasma gun price, B3+ and special deployment, backed up by a really good transport, is insane.

I know ogryns didn't get a whole lot of people excited...but what about a squad of four in a Valkyrie? Grav-chute deployment means you can disembark, walk up, and charge basically whoever you want.

Not entirely as exciting as Scion plasma spam, but I'm still amused

@ MrMoustaffa

Any game can be broken if you push it enough. And Brimstone horrors are significantly more broken.

I miss a discussion about the LR variants a little in this thread. Furthermore, Tank commander and Pask in which tank?

 Trickstick wrote:
So, I was looking at all the get started + index bundles. I noticed that the Militarum Tempestus one is already gone. I think we may be seeing a top-tier meta-breaking army being forged here. That plasma gun price, B3+ and special deployment, backed up by a really good transport, is insane.

It's to hard to tell but it's not just the fact scions are one of the best troop choices it's the entire imperial soup this edition creates not even including all the FW items with tons of new rules. The meta will definitely be some type of imperial multi detachment shenanigans, Maybe necrons, maybe some demon list. To early to tell.

So, I attempted to run a practical test of the 500 conscript army. 544 conscripts actually, in 11 blobs, overseen by 6 commanders and 6 commissars. Many, many placeholders (paper, I don't have *nearly* that many physical models) were involved. Fortunately, placeholders are easy to keep track of when the entire army consists of only three unit types, only one of which is the fighting component. Obviously this wasn't a real game with an opponent, merely a practical experiment.

It is remarkably effective. In the first turn, typically only the first three ranks will be able to fire, and they'll pretty much only be able to target whatever is directly in front of them so they can't concentrate well. However, with the models packed shoulder to shoulder, the first three ranks is 180 lasguns under FRFSRF orders. Most of the squads have to deploy five across and ten deep in order to let them all participate in the shooting, with the ends thinning their depth to improve their frontage. It inflicted roughly 30 casualties on the all-comers infantry list I tested it against, four different squads were reduced to two or three models with two others losing a couple models each.

Now, the return fire did kill 42 conscripts and drop 6 more from battleshock, but the Commissars limiting battleshock to one per squad and giving them LD8 to actually pass some tests did a lot to hold them together. With the ability to allocate your own wounds, models who weren't in range to fire anyway could be removed from the back so that very little actual firepower was lost. And of course, 48 conscripts is less than 10% of the army anyway. By the second turn the first rank would be in rapid-fire range, and the first five or six ranks would be at least in firing range. It certainly brings an intimidating sense of inevitability to the table.

And with the removal of difficult terrain, in a forest or trench-line environment there's little to prevent the blocks of conscripts from just grinding their way up the board until they get into rapid-fire range.

Now, the downsides. Logistics. 556 models in total. Difficult to transport, difficult to put on the board, difficult to keep the squads separated (if someone actually attempts this insanity with real models, they'll probably want to paint their helmet stripes different colors to keep track of who belongs in which squad). City terrain would be sure to bog them down, a couple well-placed buildings in their deployment zone might even make them unable to deploy all their models because they just don't have enough room. Moving all those models is incredibly time-consuming even with difficult terrain being gone.

Deploying along the short board edges would handicap them too, since it would limit how many models they can shove in the front. Forcing them to deploy narrow and deep limits their first-turn firepower, and causes them to ramp up more slowly.

It is an amusing and scary gimmick/theory list though. "They'll need hundreds of shots to kill X big thing" is a lot less comforting when you're facing 360 lasgun shots on the first turn, ramping up to potentially 2000 per turn if they manage to get in range.

I'm very curious what the point costs and effectiveness of the FW arty stuff. That's why I'm not going ham on the GW stuff just yet.

Got to stop thinking in terms of single charges. Every CC unit will be multi charging or pile in engaging unless your army is super spread out, in which case you are not taking advantage of buffs.

Also deploying into deep strike counts as a unit deploying so be aware of that. All those scions in reserve count.

 Paintalist wrote:
I miss a discussion about the LR variants a little in this thread. Furthermore, Tank commander and Pask in which tank?

I think Leman Russes are going to be fine, the Battle Cannon variant included. As for Pask I'm really torn between the Vanquisher and the regular LR. I think the Vanq will be more consistent but the Battle Cannon sure has the potential to do a ton of damage, especially with Pask. I don't like the short ranged variants as much, but then again I think people are going to be closing to short range very quickly so Punisher Pask definitely has a ton of potential still. I don't like the Eradicator much, and I'm not sure about the Executioner either. It's also worth noting, as a bit of a counterpoint to all of the criticism directed at the Russ, that the guys at Frontline gaming, who helped balance this edition, consider the battle cannon to be one of the best weapons in the game. With a decent BS and the potential to re-roll that D6 shots, I can see why.

 Paintalist wrote:
I miss a discussion about the LR variants a little in this thread. Furthermore, Tank commander and Pask in which tank?

Taking Leman Russ instead of HWS or plasma Scions is going to lower your chances of winning games, but if you really want to take some Russ go with the Executioner. Tank orders will allow you to re-roll gets hot so you can maximize your damage output.

Any thoughts on the Hellhounds ? Thinking about the flamer role they could fill in my army. The Chem Cannon looks fun, and the short range is not a problem with the speed of the vehicle.

 Leth wrote:
Got to stop thinking in terms of single charges. Every CC unit will be multi charging or pile in engaging unless your army is super spread out, in which case you are not taking advantage of buffs.

Also deploying into deep strike counts as a unit deploying so be aware of that. All those scions in reserve count.

Yup, the only way to cheat the deployment numbers is to put multiple units in the same transport as you deploy a transport.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
As for Pask I'm really torn between the Vanquisher and the regular LR. I think the Vanq will be more consistent but the Battle Cannon sure has the potential to do a ton of damage, especially with Pask.

I'm waiting to see the FW index. It has both the Stygies pattern Vanquisher (co-ax stormbolter) and the Krieg Mars Alpha patterns (the Mars alpha Vanquisher has a co-ax stubber). Just having the co-ax makes a Vanquisher's main gun better than 3+ to hit, never mind any possible alternative ammunition choices. Then you also have the annihilator tank, which could be the best russ out of them all. And the conqueror, which could turn out to be anything at all.

There are a few other FW models that could end up being really nice:

- The multiple sub-baneblade sized superheavies. A lot of them have either very scary guns (Macharius Omega, Malcador Infernus), or could be in a sweet spot of guns and point efficiency.
- Vulture and Vendetta. Depending on cost, these could be really nice. I am not too sure how great a Vendetta would be if it was hiting on a 5+, but if the Vulture keeps its +1 against ground targets then it would be getting 20 hits, which is nice.
- The many types of stationary artillery. They are usually just cheaper versions of the self-propelled artillery in the codex. Imagine a 100 point Manticore or a 75 point Basilisk.
- Hades breaching drills are always an interesting unit. Will probably be some sort of drop pod for veterans. That could really give veterans a chance to put the hurt on, depending on the exact rules and cost.
- Death riders. They have always been the version of rough riders that don't suck so much. Now that rough riders are ok, maybe death riders will be really good.

A bit of fanciful wish listing I guess, a whole lot of "maybe, if, and could be". One final thing to look forward to though: the lists themselves. Krieg, Elysian and Renegades could all have some little tweak that really fits with your play style. Something as simple as changing the reserve limits for an Elysian list could open up a proper aircav list for people who love that. There is even an entry for "Astra Militarum Army List", which has a chance of being some sort of Armoured Battle Group rules.

Will have to wait and see. The FW index is the last piece of the puzzle to how Guard are going to look for the foreseeable future, at least until a Codex drop.

 Aaranis wrote:
Any thoughts on the Hellhounds ? Thinking about the flamer role they could fill in my army. The Chem Cannon looks fun, and the short range is not a problem with the speed of the vehicle.

The melta one looks weak, because it has to roll to hit, and it gets a -1 for moving. The Chem or Inferno with a hill flamer looks interesting because you can move forward to attack, charge support or shooting units to tie them up, and have brutal Overwatches if someone decides to assault you. This makes them potentially useful defensive pieces to help protect units from close combat.

Biophysical wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Any thoughts on the Hellhounds ? Thinking about the flamer role they could fill in my army. The Chem Cannon looks fun, and the short range is not a problem with the speed of the vehicle.

The melta one looks weak, because it has to roll to hit, and it gets a -1 for moving. The Chem or Inferno with a hill flamer looks interesting because you can move forward to attack, charge support or shooting units to tie them up, and have brutal Overwatches if someone decides to assault you. This makes them potentially useful defensive pieces to help protect units from close combat.

I already own 4 so I will be using them They are not as good as a taurox prime, but nothing else is. I won't spam just scions and primes though because that army is a meta army and I hat painting that many models just so it can be invalidated when the codex arrives. Thats something to keep in mind, I am sure they remain decent, but I'd rather have a few other options. It also is more fun to play with more different stuff.

I plan on fielding some hell hounds, rough riders, a lump of standard guardsmen, or conscripts some arty and then scions. Should be a blast to play.

Giving either one a heavy flamer sounds like a great 1-2 punch.

There's no doubt the Vendetta will be expensive, especially if it still has all six lascannons. That's 150 points in lascannons alone after all.

However, as long as the *hull* isn't too much, it can easily be worth it. The more the hull/weapons breakdown leans towards weapons, the better.

Definitely looking forward to the stationary artillery platforms though, especially since their crew are just 4 points per model now. It should allow us to put a big gun on the field with very little overhead.

 ross-128 wrote:
Definitely looking forward to the stationary artillery platforms though, especially since their crew are just 4 points per model now. It should allow us to put a big gun on the field with very little overhead.

Is there any indication of how mixed toughness units work? Are there even any mixed toughness units in the game anymore? I can see artillery pieces having some odd special rules to do with crew, or maybe just not counting them at all and having them included in a single profile.

I believe it says majority toughness for anything mixed.

 Leth wrote:
I believe it says majority toughness for anything mixed.

Well artillery would really need a rule then. T3 basilisk platforms would be really bad.

There are very few mixed Toughness units and I think they all have the rule on their dataslates because 8th edition is very good.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I believe it says majority toughness for anything mixed.

Well artillery would really need a rule then. T3 basilisk platforms would be really bad.

I know for the thunderfire cannon they are seperate units, and I think Weapons platforms for eldar became one combined base profile. So we can guess that for the earth shaker crew and the like it will be the same