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After much deliberation I'm down to the following anchor points for my list:

First: We need the Ministorum. Proper divine guidance for our guardsmen is very important.
Second: Yarrik is needed. Reroll 1's for my Manticores and HWTs and... basically everything? Additionally he's hellingly annoying with his "3+ no die today" with all of my rerolls.
Third: Never leave home without 11 Rerolls. That way I can comfortably settle for a ~1/3 chance to sieze and plan to go second.

  • Saint Celestine is an absolute asset for our gunline army. She gives a 6++ bubble, is mobile enough to stand behind the meatshields and jump over (Act of Faith, so 24" flying Movement) and wreck face with nearly anything. If she gets killed, she will come back - and if needed that can even be on the objective on the other side of the battlefield. The shenanigans with her Gemina with that tears are nice - if she is killed after coming back, her gemina can AoF her back. Did I say she can also AoF to attack twice when in Melee?
    [list] Crusader squads are a joke. 22 Points for two 3++ models, who can AoF and SoF? There are enough units with high strengh, high AP attacks but low number of attacks who wont be able to kill them in a round of combat. No Movement for you this turn. Additionally that makes our Ministorum force a vanguard for +1CP.
    [list] Maxed Conscripts squads, who are spread out across the entire frontline love Yarrik, the saint and priests. And Astropaths for a 4+/5++ !
    [list] Ratlings were discussed at length - but I really love them.
    [list] An Adept Tel Vanguard with a Primaris and 3 Astros is 103 pts for reliable psyker defence, one good spell (+1 Save), one meh one (-2 Leadership - but hey, put them on his backline firewarriors and mortar them for 1-2 casualties) and one which explicitly allows model sniping - even if its only 2d6 range and only one mortal wound. Might come in handy.
    [list] Consripts... I'd take 50 for a meatshield to take any first turn chargers and a second troop as big as possible with sparepoints.
  •    
    Made in gb
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    UK

     vipoid wrote:
     Mr Morden wrote:

    She does give all Astra Milletarium units within 6" a 6+ invuln - hits hard and is hard to kill.

    She can even go after flyers now and chop them into bits. Plus she has her own free Act of Faith - not sure fi she can use that one on herself. If so even on her won she can AOF 12" , move 12" in move phase and charge 2D6.


    I believe she can use the Act of Faith on herself, as she meets the criteria and the rulebook states that models are always considered to be within range of themselves.

    Out of interest, would you take her bodyguard as well or just her?


    Don't really see any reason not to take them - they are good in their own right, serve as renewable ablative armour and if you have bought the Celestine model then you likely have the two ladies anyway

    if she is killed after coming back, her gemina can AoF her back


    If Celestine leaves the battlefield (she can't actually die ) her gemina go with her.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/04 20:51:07


    I AM A MARINE PLAYER

    "Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
    Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

    "I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

    www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

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    No, that only happens when you roll a 1 on the ressurection - if it happens at a later date that rule doesnt apply
       
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    The dark behind the eyes.

    Ossa wrote:
    No, that only happens when you roll a 1 on the ressurection - if it happens at a later date that rule doesnt apply


    Remember kids: always save a Command Point to reroll Celestine's resurrection roll.

     blood reaper wrote:
    I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



     the_scotsman wrote:
    Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

     Argive wrote:
    GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


     Andilus Greatsword wrote:

    "Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
    "ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


    Akiasura wrote:
    I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


     insaniak wrote:

    You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

    Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
     
       
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    Sweden

    What does everyone think about the Shadowsword? If Titanic units turns out to be a common thing in this edition's meta it could be very valuable. A round of fire from it (considering that you use a Command Re-roll to avoid low-rolling on it's number of shots) should cripple most super-heavies, and if it high-rolls you could outright oneshot Titanic units. Even if there are no Titanic units it's very good at taking out tanks and monsters, and with sponsons it can support with loads of heavy bolter and lascannon shots. It seems like a very good unit, as long as the rest of your army is able to cover the Shadowsword's weaknesses, such as infantry hordes, deepstriking alpha units and vehicle-spam.

    Alaitoc Eldar: 5000p

    Vampire Counts: 3000p

    Death Korps of Krieg: 7000p

    World Eaters: 2000p 
       
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    At 2000 pts we will only see a few Titans. If you are playing apoc around 3000 by all means take one as super heavies are getting more common. We probably need more plastic lord of wars to see titans become more mainstream too and then we FW rules will help.
       
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     Leth wrote:
    After having played a game of 8th I caution against too many deep striking units. Remember it is 9 inches from ANY enemy unit. It will be very very easy to box you out of your effective range for most targets you want to get with the plasma guns. Three independent models can completely block deep strike across the short side of the board.

    However if you are still thinking in a 7th edition list building mentality it would still work.

    Remember hordes are going to be a thing. Tyranids will literally just space out the 100+ Gants/Gaunts they can get . What is your plasma deep strike going to do now?

    You need to build a take all comers list that can put out a pure volume of shots on top of dealing with elite units. Also wounding on threes with most things is a huge shift in damage output compared to what I am used to.


    I think the mass-drop can still work, just not the way it would have in 7th. If you can get upfield with it, great, but if enemy units close off key areas, you just drop them in your own lines. Having a plan for that is just part of preparing deployment for your list. Its only really a problem if you want to drop units that are only good behind enemy lines, but I don't think that's the case for Scions.
       
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     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    So where does the humble Leeman Russ fall into that?


    The motor pool.
       
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    So what defends against dead commisars and charges?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    RogueApiary wrote:
     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    So where does the humble Leeman Russ fall into that?


    The motor pool.


    No...

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 00:04:48


    Feed the poor war gamer with money.  
       
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    Indiana

    Biophysical wrote:
     Leth wrote:
    After having played a game of 8th I caution against too many deep striking units. Remember it is 9 inches from ANY enemy unit. It will be very very easy to box you out of your effective range for most targets you want to get with the plasma guns. Three independent models can completely block deep strike across the short side of the board.

    However if you are still thinking in a 7th edition list building mentality it would still work.

    Remember hordes are going to be a thing. Tyranids will literally just space out the 100+ Gants/Gaunts they can get . What is your plasma deep strike going to do now?

    You need to build a take all comers list that can put out a pure volume of shots on top of dealing with elite units. Also wounding on threes with most things is a huge shift in damage output compared to what I am used to.


    I think the mass-drop can still work, just not the way it would have in 7th. If you can get upfield with it, great, but if enemy units close off key areas, you just drop them in your own lines. Having a plan for that is just part of preparing deployment for your list. Its only really a problem if you want to drop units that are only good behind enemy lines, but I don't think that's the case for Scions.


    At that point they are just more expensive veterans , you are investing a lot into that. Without a lot of other ranged or cc units you are going to run into trouble. Right now tyrannies and orky are looking to be the dominant factions right now so keep that in mind.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 00:13:42


    People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

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     Leth wrote:
    Biophysical wrote:
     Leth wrote:
    After having played a game of 8th I caution against too many deep striking units. Remember it is 9 inches from ANY enemy unit. It will be very very easy to box you out of your effective range for most targets you want to get with the plasma guns. Three independent models can completely block deep strike across the short side of the board.

    However if you are still thinking in a 7th edition list building mentality it would still work.

    Remember hordes are going to be a thing. Tyranids will literally just space out the 100+ Gants/Gaunts they can get . What is your plasma deep strike going to do now?

    You need to build a take all comers list that can put out a pure volume of shots on top of dealing with elite units. Also wounding on threes with most things is a huge shift in damage output compared to what I am used to.


    I think the mass-drop can still work, just not the way it would have in 7th. If you can get upfield with it, great, but if enemy units close off key areas, you just drop them in your own lines. Having a plan for that is just part of preparing deployment for your list. Its only really a problem if you want to drop units that are only good behind enemy lines, but I don't think that's the case for Scions.


    At that point they are just more expensive veterans , you are investing a lot into that. Without a lot of other ranged or cc units you are going to run into trouble. Right now tyrannies and orky are looking to be the dominant factions right now so keep that in mind.


    Pretty much my thoughts. All this deep striking for what, to be swarmed to death, tanks that can hit and would less and are more for tanks that are somwhat overpriced for the fire power and a lack of troop options is starting to hit me.

    Feed the poor war gamer with money.  
       
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    So what do you guyz think about using a stormlord and putting 18 heavy weapons teams in it? (Lets say lascannons in this case)

    The more i think about it the better it sounds

    The megabolter is a pretty decent weapon, and combined with sponsons can put out brutal anti infantry fire.
    At the same time your heavy weapons team are well protected and puts out amazing anti tank fire without having to worry about return fire

    Other bonuses its that its alot easier to deploy without having to put out 18 large bases. And your heavy weapons teams get better firing arcs due to baneblades height, plus you have better chance to go first against other horde armies since you save having to deploy 6 squads
       
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    Indiana

    Personally, I find it hard to not take a 50 man conscript blob in every army. it is 50 wounds, 50 lasguns for 150 points!!

    Shoot, take two! A commissar or two and a few orders? You got an amazing meat shield/area denile unit.

    Especially now that blobs are no longer a thing they are your best way to maximize unit buffs

    Also for 10 points rough riders are two wounds and can use their hunting lance every turn now!! 60 points for two outflanking plasmaguns is not bad.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/05 01:58:04


    People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

    My Deathwatch army project thread  
       
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    I'd say conscripts are definitely a mech guard player's best friend.

    If you do want to do a mech guard list, you're taking advantage of the fact that mass conscripts are dirt cheap and difficult to sweep off the table. You spend about 20-30% of your list on Conscripts, and maybe 10-15% on their supporting officers, you have all the ablative wounds that your tanks could possibly ask for and you no longer have to worry about enemy light infantry, while having over half your budget to spend on tanks.

    Which is good, because that means all your tanks can focus on heavy infantry and enemy vehicles. All the ordinance weapons are primarily anti-tank now. Heavy bolters and heavy flamers for days can deal with heavy infantry. However, the normal heavy support slots in my opinion should still be occupied by artillery because of how much cheaper it is, Basilisks, Manticores, maybe a couple Hydras if you want some autocannon action.

    The Russes should be in the HQ slot, because they should be tank commanders. Why? BS3+. Sweet, delicious, BS3+. If only they could also give orders to each other, but at least there's Pask (and his amazingly entertaining BS2+) for that. Of course, since Pask is Cadian, you'll want to put him and his Tank Commanders in a Supreme Command detachment so they can sit off on the side being Cadians. Since you're stuffing your HQ slots with tanks, you'll probably appreciate the extra HQ slots anyway.

    And, of course, don't forget to toss in at least one Techpriest because regenerating health every turn is a wonderful thing.

    A mech list doesn't exactly have the slot stuffing for multi-Battalion spam, so instead stick some Hellhounds in the Fast Attack slots so you can take a Brigade instead. The Conscripts and Commissars that go with them will neatly take care of troops/elites anyway. The Hellhounds should also help the Conscript line do a better job of eating assaults.
       
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    So where do Vets factor in these days, the Chimera?

    Feed the poor war gamer with money.  
       
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    I'm not denying Conscripts are great, but are they going to be that hard to kill? 10 Khorne Berzerkers would probably murder all 50 Conscripts in 1 turn and keep going. I'm also expecting snipers to be very common, so if that Commissar gets taken out they are going to start vanishing fast due to battle shock.

     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    So where do Vets factor in these days, the Chimera?


    I keep talking about the potential of dual HF flamer chimeras, but I'm thinking vets with 3 flamers and a HF in said Chimera is going to be nasty assault unit. A true sturm squad.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 02:24:56


     
       
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    But you have no access point for the guard flamers on the Chimera now, just the HF on the Chimera?

    Feed the poor war gamer with money.  
       
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    While Khorne Berzerkers are terrifying, they're also a fairly extreme case. Not many units can put out 64 attacks hitting on 3+ the way they can, probably the only other armies that can even think about it are 'Nids and Orks, and the units they use for that don't exactly have MEQ statlines.

    Though, in order to do that they have to use chainswords, which means the conscripts will get their armor save. 64 on 3+ is 42.67 hits, wounding on 3+ is 28.4 wounds, saving on 5+ is 19 dead conscripts. So on average it should actually take them three turns to chew through a Conscript blob, which is over half the game. And that's assuming they don't take any casualties in approach, overwatch, or withdraw-and-shoot.

    The Conscripts will ultimately die, of course, but not before managing to do their jobs.
       
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    Are conscripts 3+, thought they were far more that that, like 5+?

    Feed the poor war gamer with money.  
       
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     Otto von Bludd wrote:
    I'm not denying Conscripts are great, but are they going to be that hard to kill? 10 Khorne Berzerkers would probably murder all 50 Conscripts in 1 turn and keep going. I'm also expecting snipers to be very common, so if that Commissar gets taken out they are going to start vanishing fast due to battle shock.

     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    So where do Vets factor in these days, the Chimera?


    I keep talking about the potential of dual HF flamer chimeras, but I'm thinking vets with 3 flamers and a HF in said Chimera is going to be nasty assault unit. A true sturm squad.


    With Shotguns!

    The differences in how assault works make assaulting with guard squads a bit more reasonable, I think. You pound a bunch of flamers/shotguns/whatever into a squad, then charge to get another couple wounds in. This matters because of how Battle Shock works. Every extra wound you do during the turn has a good chance of translating to a wound in the morale phase. You do open yourself up to return wounds and your own Battle Shock, so the decision will depend on your target and the presence of supporting characters. No bonus attack for charging and no extra attack for two close combat weapons means the sergeants are doing less damage, though, so it's probably only a feasible tactic if you've got a priest or commissar supporting.
       
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     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    Are conscripts 3+, thought they were far more that that, like 5+?


    3+ is the khorne berzerkers' chance of hitting them, because that's their weapon skill.
    They then wound on 3+, because it's a S4 Berzerker vs a T3 Conscript.
    Then the Conscripts get a 5+ armor save.

    The point was that berzerkers would have to roll exceedingly well to wipe a Conscript blob in one turn.
       
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     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    So where do Vets factor in these days, the Chimera?


    I think a meltavet (maybe with a heavy flamer?) squad still works pretty well in a Valkyrie; grav-chutes let them drop, close in to half range, and start melting stuff.
       
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     Spinner wrote:
     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    So where do Vets factor in these days, the Chimera?


    I think a meltavet (maybe with a heavy flamer?) squad still works pretty well in a Valkyrie; grav-chutes let them drop, close in to half range, and start melting stuff.


    Can Chimera's fly now?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Flying Chimera's.... a weapon to surpass Metal Gear.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 03:15:47


    Feed the poor war gamer with money.  
       
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    So, what I'm reading here is that you have a chimera meltavet list and all you really care about is if you can still win games with it, without making any changes to your list or playstyle.

    The answer is no. The reason is simple: firing ports are gone. Driveby melta is dead.

    And because you have to get out at the beginning of the movement phase, the Chimera will have to spend at least one shooting phase sitting within 15" (3" disembark+6" movement+6" melta-bonus range) before they can hop out and slag something.

    If you are currently running a driveby melta list, you're going to have to re-organize your army and re-plan your strategy. That is all.

    If you want something that can achieve a somewhat similar effect, albeit with a lower survival rate for the vets, you can take Valkyries instead to do precision combat drops. Because Valkyries can disembark mid-move, allowing them to be super aggressive.
       
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    No more Melta Drift

    Feed the poor war gamer with money.  
       
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     NenkotaMoon wrote:
     Spinner wrote:
     NenkotaMoon wrote:
    So where do Vets factor in these days, the Chimera?


    I think a meltavet (maybe with a heavy flamer?) squad still works pretty well in a Valkyrie; grav-chutes let them drop, close in to half range, and start melting stuff.


    Can Chimera's fly now?


    Depends on whether or not you leave them balanced on area terrain someone's likely to put a hand on...
       
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    Jervis Johnson






    Remember the effects of morale. You only need to kill about 70% of enemy units by average in one turn, and the rest will explode to morale immediately. Kill 19 Orks from a unit of 30, and the rest explode to morale. Kill 7 Khorne Berzerkers from a unit of 10, and the last 3 explode to morale. With careful focus fire, and counter-charges in the right places (like in my list), wiping out masses of the enemy isn't as hard as it first looks.

    Units under the effects of Commissars are an extremely rare exception to this. Conscripts are a good unit for more reasons than just taking hits in the fight phase. You're going to need expendable stuff at the perimeter of your army to prevent deep strikers from coming within 9" of the things you want to be shooting for more turns than one (or none).

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 06:44:10


     
       
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    Ossa wrote:

  • Saint Celestine is an absolute asset for our gunline army. She gives a 6++ bubble, is mobile enough to stand behind the meatshields and jump over (Act of Faith, so 24" flying Movement) and wreck face with nearly anything. If she gets killed, she will come back - and if needed that can even be on the objective on the other side of the battlefield. The shenanigans with her Gemina with that tears are nice - if she is killed after coming back, her gemina can AoF her back. Did I say she can also AoF to attack twice when in Melee?
    [list] Crusader squads are a joke. 22 Points for two 3++ models, who can AoF and SoF? There are enough units with high strengh, high AP attacks but low number of attacks who wont be able to kill them in a round of combat. No Movement for you this turn. Additionally that makes our Ministorum force a vanguard for +1CP.
    [list] Maxed Conscripts squads, who are spread out across the entire frontline love Yarrik, the saint and priests. And Astropaths for a 4+/5++ !
    [list] Ratlings were discussed at length - but I really love them.
    [list] An Adept Tel Vanguard with a Primaris and 3 Astros is 103 pts for reliable psyker defence, one good spell (+1 Save), one meh one (-2 Leadership - but hey, put them on his backline firewarriors and mortar them for 1-2 casualties) and one which explicitly allows model sniping - even if its only 2d6 range and only one mortal wound. Might come in handy.
    [list] Consripts... I'd take 50 for a meatshield to take any first turn chargers and a second troop as big as possible with sparepoints.

  • -If celestine dies and fails her 2+/dies second time, her Geminae get removed too so no Spirit of Martyr resurrection
    -Crusaders are 15pts. 11 for model and 4 for power sword.
    -Terrify is a good power. 2 extra casulties might not intrest chaff like orks or IG but its good against elite units. Also you cant snipe models with Gaze of the Emperor since it causes mortal wounds to a unit. You can snipe characters thou but 2d6" range is very limiting.
       
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    Georgia

    Commissars definitely are supreme sniper bait. It sounds like it's going to be a pain in the arse to keep they from getting a bullet through the brain vs armies with easy access to numerous snipers.

    I keep looking at bullgryns and as much as I want to use them 42pt for 1 with slabshield and maul (+2 armor and S7 AP-1 D2) just really doesn't seem worth it. Granted they are statted as basically a worse custodes (-1WS.BS,LD) for 10pts cheaper. They cant be take orders or benefit from anything <Regiment> But you can stick a barebones ministorum priest with them for a extra attack but thats 35pts that could possibly just get sniped out.

    If one of you mathhammer wizards has some time I'd love to see how the maul/slabshield bullgryn stack up against the average custodes Vs various targets

    Vorradis 75th "Crimson Cavaliers" 8.7k

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     Ir0njack wrote:
    Commissars definitely are supreme sniper bait. It sounds like it's going to be a pain in the arse to keep they from getting a bullet through the brain vs armies with easy access to numerous snipers.

    If one of you mathhammer wizards has some time I'd love to see how the maul/slabshield bullgryn stack up against the average custodes Vs various targets

    Whenever snipers are present, you park your characters behind a wall of vehicles where they can't be seen. 98 points buys 10 T6 3+ wounds and some of the most efficient firepower in the whole game.

    As far as Bullgryns are concerned, they're bad compared to Eversors in every which way.

    Against the target that the Bullgryns are best at, multiwound targets, for example T7 3+ vehicles, Bullgryns on the charge do 1 wound per every 31,5 points they spend. That's a good score, but that's their optimal situation.

    An Eversor Assassin will throw a melta bomb and attack at S5 which is very sub-optimal in the situation, and will still only spend 15,21 points per wound scored. That's an incredible score. Twice as effective as the Bullgryns, even against the Bullgryns' best target. Especially as you consider the 3D6 charge, the deep strike, and the ability to also chew through one wound units with the Executioner Pistol and Neuro Gauntlet.

    Against Orks, you see the unflexibility of the Bullgryns. They'll do 1 wound of damage for every 23,6 points they spend, but those are 6 point wounds that they're causing. An Eversor would do 1 wound for every 8,3 points he spends. Three times more efficient. An Eversor is so good he's better at killing Orks than Genestealers are, point by point. And you can have as many of those guys as you want. You can make an assault army that's stronger than many Tyranid armies.

    What about survivability? Well, the 2+ armour save is certainly great and T5 isn't bad either. Bullgryns pay 14,33 points per wound, but have no ranged weapons and have no delivery mechanism to combat on their own. Eversor pays only 11,66 points per wound, and still has T4 and a 4+ invulnerable too. He also gets a plethora of special rules. Including the bio-meltdown.

    It's not really up in the air which one we'd want, for all situations. That's why my list has 4 Eversors. Depending on how the meta shakes up, I could go all the way to 6.

    Of course, now I compared the Bullgryns to one of the best (maybe the best) assault units in the game. Only Boyz are more efficient at killing things in combat as the Eversor, but they have weaknesses that the Eversor doesn't have, like morale and not paying for actually getting to the combat in the point by point calculation. In a battle of Eversors vs Orks, the Eversors will almost certainly win, because they'll get the charge, and the surviving Orks will not be able to win, and will explode to morale.

    There ya go.

    This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2017/06/05 10:22:23


     
       
     
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