Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Commisars dont actually benefit heavy weapon squads at all, if they would benefit from the blamming the unit is lost anyways because its only 3 models

That makes it one of the few areas a regimental flag will actually have an advantage over a Commissar, albeit a very minor one. Personally I wouldn't bother.

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
That makes it one of the few areas a regimental flag will actually have an advantage over a Commissar, albeit a very minor one. Personally I wouldn't bother.

As Guard, you always have to ask yourself "is more guns better than this?" before spending points on upgrades. For instance, would getting another squad of bodies be better than getting an officer? Most of the time getting more models and guns is the better choice.

I'm off to find where I put the stormbolters for my Hellhounds...

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Say what you will, I still wish the Leman Russ was a bit more killy.

I think that all the older large blasts (yes Riptide included, don't lynch me!) should be 2d6, drop lower.
Is easy to implement and makes the weapon a tad bit more reliable.

Random thought as I was wondering if you could build a AM melee squad on the cheap and effective. This is the only thing i came up with, and it's not on the cheap.

Valkyrie transport
Colonel Iron hand Straken
Ministrum priest
10x Platoon Commanders with Power Maul

You get 5 attacks per model, 3+ to hit, S5 usually will be 3+ to wound, and every model has an invulnerable save.
After initial rounds of combat, they can issue themselves the orders to fight in the shooting phase.

519pts total, wow I completely ignored the cheap part.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Say what you will, I still wish the Leman Russ was a bit more killy.

I think that all the older large blasts (yes Riptide included, don't lynch me!) should be 2d6, drop lower.
Is easy to implement and makes the weapon a tad bit more reliable.

Maybe they will be errataed in the future. They did state they are open to this.
As it is, I would focus on the cannon not turning off the other weapon slots. Lascannon/ MM X 2 is a bit horrifying.

 Humble Guardsman wrote:

Blightstar wrote:

 Kaeldran wrote:

 SeraphimXIX wrote:

200 points gets you 10 flamers, 3+sv and 20 s3 WS3+ attacks in melee.

Conga-lining them across the board seems like an excellent way to deter​ those 1st turn mass charges that nids and orks are quickly making infamous. 10d6 flamer overwatch will shut down genestealers and Boyz pretty hard.

In overwatch, all the weapons get a shot even if in normal fire they wont reach the charging unit?

Nope. You need actually be in range to fire overwatch. So if your options are in charging a Baneblade sporting 4 twin-heavyflamers that you eat 8d6 S5 ap-1 hits or try to make 9" charge you'll probably want to try that 9" charge.

Excellent point you guys raise here. Assault units staying just over 8" from flamer-heavy units before they charge may become quite common.

I doubt it. If a flamer squad is cowing you into making 9" charges then it's already done its job as a deterrent. An 8" charge has a 42% chance of success for about 95% of units in the game, and if you fail your unit is sitting in the middle of the board doing nothing, 9" away from the enemy army that will move up an inch or two next turn and shoot it off the board anyway.

In most cases you would be better off getting as close as possible and just making the charge. At least whatever models that survive the overwatch will be in combat doing their jobs.

The ability to spend a CP to re-roll one of the charge dice may make it more viable, but yes I agree. Few people aside from IG players will have that kind of CP to freely spend.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Say what you will, I still wish the Leman Russ was a bit more killy.

I think that all the older large blasts (yes Riptide included, don't lynch me!) should be 2d6, drop lower.
Is easy to implement and makes the weapon a tad bit more reliable.

Maybe they will be errataed in the future. They did state they are open to this.
As it is, I would focus on the cannon not turning off the other weapon slots. Lascannon/ MM X 2 is a bit horrifying.

The FW one could have 3 laser and 2 melta. It can be costly but Russes are not one-shotted easily anymore.
Imagine a Tank Commander or Pask with this one.

Yeah, I'm thinking Pask in a fully kitted out Russ of some sort may be pretty good value - he hits on 2+ and can give himself orders to reroll ones.

I have him at 239 points in a Plasma Russ with Plasma sponsons and Hvy. Bolter and Hvy. Stubber.

Rerollable 2+ seems pretty good for laying down some damage.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
The FW one could have 3 laser and 2 melta. It can be costly but Russes are not one-shotted easily anymore.
Imagine a Tank Commander or Pask with this one.

With the way datasheets work, I doubt that Pask can take an annihilator. Maybe get a regular commander though.

This talk of flamers and charging has got me thinking. At what point do you guys think players won't even bother trying to charge on 2d6"? If they're facing significant overwatch, will more players forgo attempting a 12", 11" or even 10" charge?

Obviously it depends on the units involved, but let's assume it's a melee focused unit eyeing up a healthy shooting focused squad that would do some serious damage to the charger if they were firing at normal BS.

1) Will people try it regardless because they'll likely be copping that full BS shooting in the next turn anyway?

2) Is it a valid tactic to move your shooty squads into just within 11-12" change range (after the nearest enemy unit moves towards you) to get off a free overwatch if/when they attempt that long-shot charge?

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
This talk of flamers and charging has got me thinking. At what point do you guys think players won't even bother trying to charge on 2d6"? If they're facing significant overwatch, will more players forgo attempting a 12", 11" or even 10" charge?

Obviously it depends on the units involved, but let's assume it's a melee focused unit eyeing up a healthy shooting focused squad that would do some serious damage to the charger if they were firing at normal BS.

1) Will people try it regardless because they'll likely be copping that full BS shooting in the next turn anyway?

2) Is it a valid tactic to move your shooty squads into just within 11-12" change range (after the nearest enemy unit moves towards you) to get off a free overwatch if/when they attempt that long-shot charge?

Honestly if I was a charging enemy I would just throw a vehicle in first to eat the overwatch.

I'm really worried for my army in 8th edition.
From what I've seen so far - my army has been literally fethed over.

I ran Carapace Armoured, Camo Cloaked, Plasma gun toting Veterans for 5 troop slots...... none of which translates to 8th so far.

Then I have a platoon currently (1 troop slot in 7th) that'll become 2 elites (Platoon Commander + Special Weapon Squad), 3 heavy support (3 Heavy Weapon Teams) and 2 troop slots (2 IG squads) in 8th...... 1 slot became 7 slots.

To cap it off, my Fortress (which currently held 4 units internally and benefited from BS from the units I put in) can only hold 1 unit + characters and never benefits from their BS -> meaning the Fortress becomes literally useless when it's at 1/3rd health.

:( I hope the Codex fixes some of my issues with 8th because I really wanted to play it after seeing the rules changes but the army specific changes fethed me over.

 Otto Weston wrote:
I ran Carapace Armoured, Camo Cloaked, Plasma gun toting Veterans for 5 troop slots...... none of which translates to 8th so far.

That sounds like you could easily use them as Scions. Just fluff it as an infiltrating regiment, so instead of airdropping they are popping up out of their hiding spaces. It's not like they have to be Scions in fluff.

Yeah, I've got a similar problem to that. I have Kasrkin, actual Scion models, and some Cadians decked out in third party bits and greenstuffed armor for Carapace. So now I have three different types of models for Scions. I'd like to have one. I guess I'm going to have to ebay some of it or something.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
I ran Carapace Armoured, Camo Cloaked, Plasma gun toting Veterans for 5 troop slots...... none of which translates to 8th so far.

That sounds like you could easily use them as Scions. Just fluff it as an infiltrating regiment, so instead of airdropping they are popping up out of their hiding spaces. It's not like they have to be Scions in fluff.

That's a good way to do it. And Camo-Cloak guardsmen would have the same suitability anyway. Instead of Carapace you've got Flak and the cover of concealed positions. Instead of hot-shots you've got crack-shots good enough to find the chinks in armour with lasguns.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
The FW one could have 3 laser and 2 melta. It can be costly but Russes are not one-shotted easily anymore.
Imagine a Tank Commander or Pask with this one.

With the way datasheets work, I doubt that Pask can take an annihilator. Maybe get a regular commander though.

I hope that FW learned something and starts to integrate better its own rules into the main zeitgeist.
If they write them well, DKK could sell like hotcakes.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
If they write them well, DKK could sell like hotcakes.

Nah, I don't think the rules affect dkok sales much. Dkok are such an expenisve range to build armies from that people either love the models and get them, or don't. I think that well written rules may cause some people to run Cadians as Dkok, and lead to a general increase in FW consumption though.

The more math I do the better Scions look. E.g. if you compare them to Veterans they have very marginally less pts/wound efficiency in an "idealized" scenario with no orders active. With FRFSRF active or Take Aim!+supercharged plasma the Scions come out ahead. And those are in idealized scenarios - it's much harder for the Veterans to get into RF position without taking hits. If you factor in non-RF'd shots for the Veterans they get demolished in efficiency. Face-striking Scions can get into RF range without taking any wounds every time. And this is ignoring other factors like Scions being 4+ Sv instead of 5+, you actually getting a good strategic drop some of the time instead of face dropping them, and the strategic advantage you get by being able to see more of your opponents army on the field before yours.

Keep in mind that, for hot-shot Scions, deep striking puts them just outside of rapid-fire range (because they're just outside of 9"). So they actually will have to fire single-shot for one turn, take one turn of return fire, then get into rapid-fire next turn.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
The FW one could have 3 laser and 2 melta. It can be costly but Russes are not one-shotted easily anymore.
Imagine a Tank Commander or Pask with this one.

With the way datasheets work, I doubt that Pask can take an annihilator. Maybe get a regular commander though.

I hope that FW learned something and starts to integrate better its own rules into the main zeitgeist.
If they write them well, DKK could sell like hotcakes.

I just hope we get decent rules. At least we are no longer gimped by the lack of blobs. Really depends on what they give us.

I'm also hoping for some exciting DKoK / FW rules.

The Mars Pattern Russ is listed in the appendix, and I'm hopeful for a more effective Vanquisher. I would LOVE for beast hunter shells from the ABG to make an appearance but am very skeptical they will.

I'm also very excited to see Taros Squadron rules. I'd imagine they're going to be similar to a scout sentinel. Unfortunately, I think that they're going to suffer the same -1 to shooting and moving, and essentially loose a lot of effectiveness unless armed with the heavy flamer (contemplating switching my two GL Taros to flamers preemptively.

On another note: Valkyries. Does anyone know if I I move exactly 20" without declaring hover jet, and grab-chute, do I not need to test for losing models? This seems to be the case RAW from my perspective. It says: "...but if the Valkyrie moves more than 20" you must roll a d6 for each model disembarking". The move distance of the model is 20"-> 45" so this implies to me I can simply move minimum distance, retain my benefits from Airborne, Supersonic, and Hard to Hit, and not suffer any danger of disembarking.

Also not 100% sure on how the rules for disembarking will work; I thought that models have to disembark BEFORE a transport moves normally... and if thats true, does that mean Grav-Chute sort of bypasses that restriction, but allowing the move first? If so that seems like a nice benefit, for dropping in some nasty surprises...

I'm thinking, move 20", deploy 12" from enemy, unload 2 SWT with 3x plasma each, and shoot... then maybe even drop a eversor right next to them to assault anything thats about to threaten them.

Learned something. The Company Commander can get the range extension and all the special stuff for from any vox as long as you are 3" from a unit that has it.

 mtcwalker wrote:
(contemplating switching my two GL Taros to flamers preemptively.

Never do this, you may as well just wait. The All Terrain Vehicle rule could easily remove the -1. Unless you are making them switchable, then no harm.

 mtcwalker wrote:
On another note: Valkyries. Does anyone know if I I move exactly 20" without declaring hover jet, and grab-chute, do I not need to test for losing models? This seems to be the case RAW from my perspective. It says: "...but if the Valkyrie moves more than 20" you must roll a d6 for each model disembarking". The move distance of the model is 20"-> 45" so this implies to me I can simply move minimum distance, retain my benefits from Airborne, Supersonic, and Hard to Hit, and not suffer any danger of disembarking.

It is pretty much impossible to move exactly 20". It is annoying that it is not just unavailable in the rules, but you are always going to move slightly more or less than 20".

 mtcwalker wrote:
Also not 100% sure on how the rules for disembarking will work; I thought that models have to disembark BEFORE a transport moves normally... and if thats true, does that mean Grav-Chute sort of bypasses that restriction, but allowing the move first? If so that seems like a nice benefit, for dropping in some nasty surprises...

Yeah, you can move, shoot and charge normally after grav-chute. It is a pretty nice ability.

 ross-128 wrote:
Keep in mind that, for hot-shot Scions, deep striking puts them just outside of rapid-fire range (because they're just outside of 9"). So they actually will have to fire single-shot for one turn, take one turn of return fire, then get into rapid-fire next turn.

They are ablative wounds more than anything. A 5 men Scion (Command) squad WILL get wiped out by shooting even in cover, while a 10 men squad with a 3+ save and 5 guys to kill before you even get to the plasma troopers (and then you still have the Sarge to sacrifice), quite likely resulting in another turn of full-on plasma carnage. They also hold objectives better (now that number of models is what counts), protect the Tempestor Prime buffing them way better (he can't do anything but hand out orders but he is still 40 points) and if enemies end up within 15" of them (e.g. trying to get into combat) then the hotshot lasguns do turn into quite an asset. And S3 -2AP is still better than boltgun rounds, so they do add some firepower as well even on single-shot (they profit from Take Aim! quite a bit as well, even if not to the extend that FRFSRF would).

It also makes them more flexible in all-comers lists (a full squad of 10 allows you to put them into the gunline if you face assault MEQ armies that WILL rush you) and also a fluffier choice that will see you take less WAAC accusations if you play outside of tournaments.

Please forgive if this has been discussed already.

However a few things strike me are fantastic with the new codex;
- Wyverns are awesome (Lots of hits/wounds at range. Still a shredder, the wound table has only got better)
- Manticores are really awesome. Happy with 4 shots, given their stat line.
- Hellhounds (and inferno cannons) are great! Decent speed coupled with a long range good damage gun. (Auto hits are the secret win sauce of this edition).
- Independant squadrons, for extremely efficient slot usage, if needed.
-Leman Russ tanks are best for being cheap-as-possible bulwarks. Better firepower elsewhere. Great toughness, mobility. I may even try to paint a small sword or two on the tracks...
-Ratlings = Yes please!
-Troop choice deep-striking Scions (are these still AM or are they a different army?!)
- Really considering trying to fill out a Battalion (the 9 command point version) with a 1500pt list.

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
The ability to spend a CP to re-roll one of the charge dice may make it more viable, but yes I agree. Few people aside from IG players will have that kind of CP to freely spend.

Most armies will have CP, if they want it. Guard a few more, but most will have what they need.

Celestine seems pretty crazily points efficient and looks like she'd fit in well to an AM army. She could start just behind the front line to buff conscript blobs with a 6+ invuln, then jump out as a counter-assault unit.

For 150pts she's a pretty decent buy - shooting has a heavy flamer, and 6 S7 AP-3 D2 attacks on the charge. She has 7 wounds with a 2+ save, 4+ invuln and gets back up at full health on a 2+ which you can re-roll with command points. For another 50pts you can take a gemini that auto-ressurects every turn too (though their damage output is a bit lacklustre)

Unless we get a codex that massively rewards solely taking astra militarum units then I see no reason not to include her in competitive lists.

Also there may be some 'act of faith' bonuses that I might have missed. If she can use one to get a turn one charge, then so much the better!

A couple of things I thought of:

-Scion command squads with banner could be really useful. You are unlikely to have a Commissar for most places you want to drop and battleshock may be a real problem. Of course, you lose a gun and the extra Scion bodies, but it isn't so much of an instant write off as the regimental standard for normal Guard.

- The hellhound's increased chance of exploding makes it a pretty good suicide unit. Just be careful to keep it outside of 6" if you plan to run 2 of them.