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I just want it the Taurox for the 20 gatling gun haha

Which setup do you prefer for a Scions drop squad:

- 10 x Scions (4 x Plasma, Plasmapistol on Tempestor) with Tempestor Prime (Plasma Pistol)

- 2 x Scions Command Squad (4 x Plasma each) with Tempestor Prime (Command Rod)

 lash92 wrote:
Which setup do you prefer for a Scions drop squad:

- 10 x Scions (4 x Plasma, Plasmapistol on Tempestor) with Tempestor Prime (Plasma Pistol)

- 2 x Scions Command Squad (4 x Plasma each) with Tempestor Prime (Command Rod)

I see people advocating for large squads but I doubt Scion have enough resilience. Isn't better to just equip well 4 and 5 men squads, give rods to tempestors and alpha-strike the enemy?

Depends on your approach. I think there's value in using the regular squads since they're troops, so they can contribute to maximizing command points.

If it's purely about points paid for damage, command squads win. But regular squads can be the better choice if you want the versatility to contest objectives and/or fill up troop slots with deep strike capable plasma wielders.

Thought some may be interested in this piece I found about Conscripts. I would never go to the extreme of an all conscript army, although I was thinking about 100 to be a nice manpower force. Temped to build some movement trays for them and march them forward Chenkov style.

Definitely seems to be an accurate assessment. The two biggest things I see holding it back would be dense terrain that simply don't leave enough room on the board to deploy them, and the Bob Ross levels of zen that would be required to paint them.

Though perhaps some of the Old Guard who have been around since Rogue Trader might have built up a large enough collection over time...

One of my rules for buying and building at this point is to not go too far building anything based on what's good at this moment. GW could adjust points or even change things up in the codex, so I don't want to end up with piles of models that were optimized for the index, but are nerfed in six months.

I'm not spitting in the face of this thread, as I agree that theory hammer points to conscripts, plasma scions, and mortar squads... but aside from the stuff I have unpainted (which is plenty) I'm not investing too much money in my army right now.

Wise choice

There's a lot of excitement about Conscripts right now, and I do think they're strong, but the more I think about it, the more I think 40 point infantry squads can perform a similar role as well, and be good at it.

Offensively, a minimally upgraded infantry squad (1 point Bolter on Sgt.) Puts out more small arms hits per point than the Conscripts. Defensively, you get 3 infantry squad wounds per 4 conscripts wounds. So without buffs, basic infantry is offensively stronger, but defensively weaker per point than a conscript squad. The inclusion of cover brings smaller squads closer to the defensive efficiency of conscripts, as conscripts will rarely get a cover bonus.

If you add in Orders, conscripts get stronger, because a single order can affect 20-50 models instead of just 10. However the "eggs in one basket" principle applies. A conscripts squad that is assaulted has all of its models locked down, instead of just 10. The Order efficiency gain is a little bit misleading as well. As casualties are taken, orders are applied to smaller and smaller conscript squads, but as infantry squads are lost, orders are applied to fill strength squads.

In assault, conscripts fare much worse than infantry squads. 100% of the squad is tied up in combat, and 100% of it is neutralized of forced to withdraw. A single order can bring it back into play, however. With multiple infantry squads, however, one squad can screen others, soak the assault, withdraw (if it's alive), and then the other squads can fire at close range, supported by orders. The multiple infantry squads are also quite flexible on the attack. They can all fire on an enemy unit, then a single squad can charge the enemy unit to tie it up for a turn, forcing a withdrawal or just tarpitting it in combat. Conscripts do bring more attacks to a fight die to bodies and order efficiency (Fix Bayonets! and Counterattack), but hitting on a 5+ and losing the bonus attack for charging really hurt their ability from previous editions to actually accomplish something in close combat beyond stalling for time, which Infantry squads do better anyway..

There are still plenty of reasons to take conscripts. The sheer number of bodies has a lot of value, as does the order efficiency. The the rules changes in this edition, however, mean that many smaller squads are very good at performing the overall tactical jobs that large blobs used to be needed for. All those cheap infantry squads make even easier to fill out your troops requirements for certain detachments as well, although 20-man conscripts are no burden in that category.

A good analysis.

One further argument in favour of Infantry Squads is the Leadership. The Sgt's Ld 7 is a huge difference. By the time an Infantry squad has taken enough losses in a turn to be automatically taking morale casualties, their combat effectiveness has already been reduced to fraction of what it was (3 models). Conscripts on the other hand, if they take 7 casualties in a turn they are already looking at between 3 or 9 more casualties. A bad roll on leadership will effectively only finish off an already mauled Infantry squad, but a bad roll on a Conscript squad may reduce a functional unit to nearly nothing.

Guardsmen benefit from having a Commissar around, but Conscripts absolutely -need- one.

Very true, I didn't discuss that because I was thinking that Commissars would probably be automatic. But yeah, the leadership advantage is real. The general trend is that infantry squads are almost universally stronger without buffs and are sometimes stronger when buffs are around. The eventual calculus for which to choose comes down to a number of army build considerations.

 Humble Guardsman wrote:

xmbk wrote:

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
The ability to spend a CP to re-roll one of the charge dice may make it more viable, but yes I agree. Few people aside from IG players will have that kind of CP to freely spend.

Most armies will have CP, if they want it. Guard a few more, but most will have what they need.

At the 2000 point mark, sure. Anything much smaller and a lot of armies have to start being really selective to get those CP. For IG players they were going to fill up all those slots anyway.

I've seen non IG players here mention that they've reached 3CP in 1000pts and they think that's good. Every IG player worth his salt should be garnering enough to spend one in every shooting phase and still have enough left over to use on stratagems or seizing the initiative on a whim.

I think CP will have a sweet spot, with diminishing returns. For smaller games, IG will reach it easier. For 1850+, I don't think it's much of an advantage. I've made brigades lists for Nids, Tau, and Marines. It was slightly easier with Guard, only Eldar struggled to get there. But Eldar are the only ones out of that group that seem to suffer from wonky pricing.

One shooting phase re-roll per turn is 6 CPs, probably well spent. You could spend one each turn defensively, probably on vehicle armor saves or character saves and it wouldn't be much of a waste. That's the 3 base + a brigade's 9. A seize re-roll and occasional use of Insane Bravery to avoid Battle Shock on key units for objective purposes could also be significant. On top of this, Advance or Charge re-rolls can be game-changing in later phases to secure or contest objectives, and re-rolling the number of heavy flamer shots you get on Overwatch is yet another impactful use.

I think, although I'm by no means certain, that a big pile of CPs will allow serious additional flexibility with how you use your forces, squeezing out key rolls when they have larger impact. 12 is a lot, but I can see using a lot more as long as your e not compromising your list to access them.

I've got a Brigade detachment that I think I like in 1000 points for 12 CPs, using largely basic infantry and light vehicles. 222 points of this are Chimeras that don't even contribute to a detachment requirement. It would be easy, and probably a solid choice, to throw in a battalion detachment of Scions (very solid troops) for another 3 CP at about 350 points, or a vanguard dedatchment of a Company Commander and 3 special weapon squads for a CP at well under 200 points. I'm very interested to see how much CPs actually matter.

CPs only matter depending on how smart you are about using them. Saving them for the more important rolls as well as baiting them out.

Anyone had good luck with bullgryns? They look like they have potential

 Polonius wrote:
One of my rules for buying and building at this point is to not go too far building anything based on what's good at this moment. GW could adjust points or even change things up in the codex, so I don't want to end up with piles of models that were optimized for the index, but are nerfed in six months.

Even before (and after) we get a codex, isn't adjusting point values every year the point of the promised Chapter Approved books? I think it's not unreasonable to expect the most popular units in all armies to see their points costs wax and wane every year, not just when their particular codex comes out.

I had a thought about using Valkyries in an air cavalry role. Somebody check me if I've missed something here:

Put your Valkyrie in hover mode. Move it 20".

Grav-chute deploy the squad. Because they deployed during the movement phase (not at the end as in most cases of "deep strike" deployment), they can still move after deploying.

Shoot whatever you're prioritizing with the squad and the Valkyrie (taking -1 on the Valkyrie due to Heavy weapons).

Charge with the Valkyrie. Being in hover mode removes the Airborne rule, which is the only thing preventing this from happening. You're not looking to do damage here, just to protect your squad on the ground, safeguard your Valkyrie against reprisal fire, and maybe force a withdrawal. Pick a unit that's a threat to your squad but unlikely to deal crippling damage to the Valkyrie in 1 turn. You can charge with the squad too, if you're feeling spicy.

On your next turn, if you're still in combat, you can use your Fly disengage to reposition your Valkyrie.

The idea of a Valkyrie fighting in close combat is weird, but I'd just picture it as the pilot strafing around at low altitude laying down suppression fire.

What does everyone think of a Tank Commander now?
and what weapon?
Im trying to expand, I used to play dual blob, but I cant anymore.
What is good now?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
What does everyone think of a Tank Commander now?
and what weapon?
Im trying to expand, I used to play dual blob, but I cant anymore.
What is good now?

If your army is Cadian I would definitely suggest that you get Pask, because he is just 10 points extra for +1BS and an additional order.
Furthermore he can issue orders to himself and other Tank commanders.

For weapons choice I like the Punisher. (For some numbers on the weapons check http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334215-improving-the-effectiveness-of-the-leman-russ/#)

 lash92 wrote:
If your army is Cadian I would definitely suggest that you get Pask, because he is just 10 points extra for +1BS and an additional order.

It's not like your army needs to be Cadian. Just call them whatever you like and if anyone asks say "totally Cadian, wink wink". The rule is only there to stop you mixing things like Creed and Straken. As long as you stick to one keyword it doesn't really matter what it is.

Awesome,
Also, what do people think of Suicide command squads in Valkyries, Vendettas.
They are cheap, with a platoon commander in there you can re-roll ones and so forth, Im just curious

For those who have used or want to use super heavies, do you find a baneblade variant is better than a knight?

PUFNSTUF wrote:
For those who have used or want to use super heavies, do you find a baneblade variant is better than a knight?

The current builds appear to be shadowsword or baneblade.
Looking at the math it makes sense. For tournaments where you expect titans to be everywhere stormsword for sure, worst case it is killing a large wound creatures/a vehicle a turn.
Baneblade is slightly better due to the 2d6 for meq and hordes.

The only other variant I would look at is the banehammer since it can stop a unit from moving as quickly. Highly useful in the right scenario.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Awesome,
Also, what do people think of Suicide command squads in Valkyries, Vendettas.
They are cheap, with a platoon commander in there you can re-roll ones and so forth, Im just curious

I would just use 2 x Tempestus Command Squad (4 x Plasma each) + Tempestor Prime.
Deepstrike within 9"" and unleash 16 overcharged plasma shots, hitting on 3+ with rerolling 1s

shank911 wrote:

PUFNSTUF wrote:
For those who have used or want to use super heavies, do you find a baneblade variant is better than a knight?

The current builds appear to be shadowsword or baneblade.
Looking at the math it makes sense. For tournaments where you expect titans to be everywhere stormsword for sure, worst case it is killing a large wound creatures/a vehicle a turn.
Baneblade is slightly better due to the 2d6 for meq and hordes.

The only other variant I would look at is the banehammer since it can stop a unit from moving as quickly. Highly useful in the right scenario.

I think I prefer the Hellhammer over the Baneblade. 20 pts more but you get +1str, -1ap and ignore cover. 36" range is not great but if you are advancing with flamers then you will have plenty of targets. That 10str is pretty nice as it gets 2+ to wound against t5. Also, don't forget that lasgun!

I'm still quite disappointed at the Stormsword. It used to use the massive 10" template and the same stats as the Hellhammer cannon. Now it is 1d6 shots with various rerolls. It isn't horrible but no longer has the massive blast it had.

Wait to see the Arkurion Pattern superheavies in the Forge World index. They may improve the Stormsword and Shadowsword somewhat.

Also, they include the Stormhammer which I have 3 of (being a former heresy superheavy tank regiment) and if it is anything like its heresy incarnation it will trump the other superheavy tanks handsomely.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait to see the Arkurion Pattern superheavies in the Forge World index. They may improve the Stormsword and Shadowsword somewhat.

Are the arkurion just different varients? Interestingly enough, I feel like the super heavy tanks gained a bit from the cover and los from anywhere on the vehicle now compared to a knight. With its lower profile, you can probably peek corners easier and shoot away.

 Trickstick wrote:
Thought some may be interested in this piece I found about Conscripts. I would never go to the extreme of an all conscript army, although I was thinking about 100 to be a nice manpower force. Temped to build some movement trays for them and march them forward Chenkov style.

Spoiler:

A small problem is that you can't keep your characters protected quite the way this suggests you can. During movement, you may not move through other models, friendly or enemy, and you must move units one at a time. So to keep your characters embedded in the conscript blobs, you would need to keep an open channel at the back, disrupting the formation and making it less efficient that portrayed. Not a huge amount worse, but a bit. It also means that to use movement trays you would also need to keep this channel, otherwise the movement of the tray would be illegal.

 Trickstick wrote:
Thought some may be interested in this piece I found about Conscripts. I would never go to the extreme of an all conscript army, although I was thinking about 100 to be a nice manpower force. Temped to build some movement trays for them and march them forward Chenkov style.

Spoiler:

Wouldn't snipers be the downfall of this technique since they could shoot the commander out and commissar?

PUFNSTUF wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Wait to see the Arkurion Pattern superheavies in the Forge World index. They may improve the Stormsword and Shadowsword somewhat.

Are the arkurion just different varients? Interestingly enough, I feel like the super heavy tanks gained a bit from the cover and los from anywhere on the vehicle now compared to a knight. With its lower profile, you can probably peek corners easier and shoot away.

They are, except the Stormhammer is totally different.

And I think our superheavies are amazing now.