Switch Theme:

Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Yes, the Baneblade company is OP precisely because it earnestly enjoys being in close combat where it shoots best.

And is also immune to enemy shooting.

And gets 9 free attacks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 21:02:40


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

What do you guys think about plasma pistols? Are they worth giving to sergeants? Company Commanders? Commissars?

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Columbia, SC (USA)

 necron99 wrote:
So what's everyone's opinion on wyverns? I own three and would hate to see them start collecting dust

Wyverns are very good in 8th edition. I use three of them plus two Manticores and a Master of Ordnance. They kill everything. Most of the rest of my army is just there to keep the enemy away from my artillery.

The secret to painting a really big army is to keep at it. You can't reach your destination if you never take any steps.

I build IG...lots and lots of IG.  
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





 JB wrote:
 necron99 wrote:
So what's everyone's opinion on wyverns? I own three and would hate to see them start collecting dust

Wyverns are very good in 8th edition. I use three of them plus two Manticores and a Master of Ordnance. They kill everything. Most of the rest of my army is just there to keep the enemy away from my artillery.


Huh really? Great to hear! I love me some artillery!

Did you not have trouble with the 'minimum range of 36" ' that you need for the Master of Ordnance's bonuses?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 22:35:53


 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

Doctoralex wrote:
Did you not have trouble with the 'minimum range of 36" ' that you need for the Master of Ordnance's aura?


It does seem a pain, especially with the Wyvern. That 48" range means you only have a 12" window of usefulness. You also get hit with a -1 to hit if you try to move and bring something into that zone.

I'm not a fan of the MoO, since he only has a single shot with his pocket-basilisk. I guess he could be ok if you take more artillery than average.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Columbia, SC (USA)

I put the MoO with the Manticores. The Wyverns have so many possible attacks (4D6) and get to reroll wounds so they do not need the MoO buff.

My artillery has killed Land Raiders, multiple squads of terminators, and AM tanks and artillery. Abaddon has learned to fear Wyverns.

The 36" MoO limit hasn't been a problem in my three games. My hordes of infantry have kept the enemy far enough away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I played a couple games using three Basilisks but they seem a little less effective than massed Wyverns and Manticores. Admittedly, I haven't had to play past Turn 4 when the Manticores run out of rockets.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/13 23:16:43


The secret to painting a really big army is to keep at it. You can't reach your destination if you never take any steps.

I build IG...lots and lots of IG.  
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





So what do people think about the Taurox and Taurox Prime? They seem kinda good actually (atleast better than the steaming pile of crap that the chimera has become), especially the prime, only 1 less toughness than a chimera and better movement and balistic skill, and for 108 pts you can get a taurox prime with gatling cannon and 2 auto cannons that hit on 3+ or 4+ while moving, seem kinda worth the points actually. You could make give the primes missile launchers, though it might be a bit expensive compared to the cheap gatling cannon.

And does the valkyrie have 2 hellstrike missiles, it doesent say two clearly, just that it has "hellstrike missiles", but considering that they can replace thoose with 2 multiple rocket pods i think you can shoot 2 hellstrike missiles in thier shooting phase. And loading up a valkyrie with 2 special weapons squads with demolition charges might make a cheap character hunting team, only 78 pts for 2 squads.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

 ThePie wrote:
And does the valkyrie have 2 hellstrike missiles, it doesent say two clearly, just that it has "hellstrike missiles", but considering that they can replace thoose with 2 multiple rocket pods i think you can shoot 2 hellstrike missiles in thier shooting phase. And loading up a valkyrie with 2 special weapons squads with demolition charges might make a cheap character hunting team, only 78 pts for 2 squads.


Valkyries have a single weapon called "Hellstrike Missiles", which gets one shot a turn. On the plus side, it isn't limited ammo anymore.

Don't forget that demolition charges are a grenade, so a squad can only throw one a turn. May want to put a couple of flamers in there instead.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





 ThePie wrote:

And does the valkyrie have 2 hellstrike missiles, it doesent say two clearly, just that it has "hellstrike missiles", but considering that they can replace thoose with 2 multiple rocket pods i think you can shoot 2 hellstrike missiles in thier shooting phase. And loading up a valkyrie with 2 special weapons squads with demolition charges might make a cheap character hunting team, only 78 pts for 2 squads.

"Hellstrike missiles" is a single profile with Heavy 1, so no, you can't shoot twice. There's nothing about them being single use any more, however, so you can use them all game long.

The demo charges strike does sound fun, but remember that demo charges have type Grenade now- so you can only throw one per squad per turn. On the other hand, they're very cheap.

Edit: sniped.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 23:51:33


   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

Almost exactly the same post. Beat you by 10 seconds though!

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





 Trickstick wrote:
Almost exactly the same post. Beat you by 10 seconds though!

I'll get you next time, Gadget!

   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





 Formerly Wu wrote:
 ThePie wrote:

And does the valkyrie have 2 hellstrike missiles, it doesent say two clearly, just that it has "hellstrike missiles", but considering that they can replace thoose with 2 multiple rocket pods i think you can shoot 2 hellstrike missiles in thier shooting phase. And loading up a valkyrie with 2 special weapons squads with demolition charges might make a cheap character hunting team, only 78 pts for 2 squads.

"Hellstrike missiles" is a single profile with Heavy 1, so no, you can't shoot twice. There's nothing about them being single use any more, however, so you can use them all game long.

The demo charges strike does sound fun, but remember that demo charges have type Grenade now- so you can only throw one per squad per turn. On the other hand, they're very cheap.

Edit: sniped.


Bummer, seems like the multiple rocket pod is better then, since you actually get 2 of them.

And since you get 2 squads in a valkyrie you can throw 2 demo charges, which should be enough to assassin a character or cripple a vehicle' keeping them cheap is the key since they will die the turn after for sure. Which might be advantage, because you can grav chute insert them without fear, since atleast 1 of the demo charge models will survive for sure so you can prob assassin a character turn 1

Thinking about it more closely, chimeras with dual heavy flamers, and loaded with 2 special weapons team with heavy charges might be the only way to make the chimera point effective, heavy flamers kill infantry while demolition charges cheaply deals with heavy targets. And playing against tau, i wonder if its not more effective to put heavy weapons team into your infantry squad rather than keep them in heavy weapon squads, they just get shot to pieces straight away before they can do anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 00:32:42


 
   
Made in gb
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer





Kazakhstan

 JB wrote:
I put the MoO with the Manticores. The Wyverns have so many possible attacks (4D6) and get to reroll wounds so they do not need the MoO buff.

My artillery has killed Land Raiders, multiple squads of terminators, and AM tanks and artillery. Abaddon has learned to fear Wyverns.

The 36" MoO limit hasn't been a problem in my three games. My hordes of infantry have kept the enemy far enough away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I played a couple games using three Basilisks but they seem a little less effective than massed Wyverns and Manticores. Admittedly, I haven't had to play past Turn 4 when the Manticores run out of rockets.



For 81 points you can get 9D6 S4 shots from 3 Mortar teams, compared with the 4D6 for the Wyvern. I'm not saying it's bad, there's just better (and cheaper) options.

Manticores are overrated - you're doing an average of 2-4 wounds per round and the 2d6 shot mechanic is far too random. If it had a higher AP and better BS it would be significantly better .

   
Made in us
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





So I'm comparing the guard super heavies to knights, and I'm struggling to see why you'd take the tanks :(
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





Mavnas wrote:
So I'm comparing the guard super heavies to knights, and I'm struggling to see why you'd take the tanks :(


The shadowsword is probably the best super heavy in the game, can take out anything in 1-2 turns for just 444 pts, the transport versions are also good since they can protect your squishy heavy weapins teans
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

What do you guys think of plasma pistols on sergeants and HQs?

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





 ThePie wrote:
Mavnas wrote:
So I'm comparing the guard super heavies to knights, and I'm struggling to see why you'd take the tanks :(


The shadowsword is probably the best super heavy in the game, can take out anything in 1-2 turns for just 444 pts, the transport versions are also good since they can protect your squishy heavy weapins teans


I mean if you roll really well, maybe? If you're shooting at a knight, you get an average of 3.5 shots (1.75 hits). All of them wound, but only 1.16 get through the saves for 8-9 damage. You can use CPs to do a bit better (but there's so many dice to be re-rolled if you want to really do well), but he can use CPs to re-roll his invuln save. The knights do so much better in melee and without support since they have better BS and don't suffer when they move and have a 5++ save against shooting.

I can see the Stormlord being useful for allowing you to potentially protect squishy dudes and/or go first despite having many squads.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol




Manchester, UK

Mavnas wrote:
If you're shooting at a knight, you get an average of 3.5 shots (1.75 hits).


You are forgetting the +1 to hit against Titanic units. That can really help out and it applies to all of the guns, so with 4 lascannons you can really do some damage.

The Tvashtan 422nd "Fire Leopards" - Updated 19/03/11

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor 
   
Made in us
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





 Trickstick wrote:
Mavnas wrote:
If you're shooting at a knight, you get an average of 3.5 shots (1.75 hits).


You are forgetting the +1 to hit against Titanic units. That can really help out and it applies to all of the guns, so with 4 lascannons you can really do some damage.


Ooh, that's true. The 500+ point version with sponsons is definitely better, I think. The knight crusader could get 12 shots at S6 AP-2 D2 + 3 shots at S8 AP -2 D d6 + 2d6 shots at S8 AP -2 D d3, all at regardless of whether it moved or what type of target. Both come in within less than 10 points of eachother. Granted, maybe once I do the math that AP won't be enough to be as impressive as the volume of fire implies, but I guess I was considering the support I could give the tank like a Void Shield Generator and Yarrick (is there a cheaper way to reroll 1s or a better reroll available?).
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

The reason you take the tanks over a Knight is the tanks (yes, even the Baneblade) has a good chance of killing the knight between shooting and charging.

It is also worth noting that the Baneblade can fire out of combat, so you can more easily sit on an objective with it and win without being bogged down and unable to fire. A knight can't even hold and objective in the same situation.
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





UK

This is how I see things right now

Outright mandatory
Commissar

Competitively useful
Company Commanders
Platoon Commanders
Tank Commanders/Pask in either a standard Russ or Demolisher
Heavy Weapon Squads (Insanely cheap and efficient)
Conscripts (See image on last page)
Tempestus Scions
Tempestor Prime (particularly airdrop FRFSRF)
Officer of the Fleet (Very cost efficient firepower all things considered with the airstrike)
Taurox Prime (a lot of firepower)
Valkyries (not so much for firepower, but for transportation utility)
Manticores
Wyverns
Militarum Tempestus Command Squads (only if you're using them in a minimalist 4x special weapon spam capacity, otherwise they're awful)
Ministorum Priests
Edit Command Squads (Only for some sort of Valkyrie/transport related special weapon spam, otherwise they're awful)

Meh/passable
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Demolisher
Leman Russ Executioner (only with a tank commander buddy for constant orders to supercharge)
Leman Russ Punisher
Hellhounds and variants
Infantry squads
Special Weapon Squads (Possibly above category if you're doing some Valkyrie shenanigans and filling them with two squads)
Master of Ordnance
Ratlings
Ogryns
Lord Commissar (unless using just to fill out force org and be a slightly better Commissar in which case above category)
Veterans
Basilisks


Awful
Command Squads (all-round pointless since medics are rubbish, banners are made irrelevant by the existence of Commissars, and vox casters can be used from any unit near an officer)
Hydras (overcosted and overspecialised)
Sergeant Harker (way too overcosted for what he offers as a force multiplier)

That's hilarious! What are the actual rules?
Deathstrike Missile Launchers
Leman Russ Eradicator
Leman Russ Vanquisher
Leman Russ Exterminator

As for the rest, I won't be able to tell until I've tried them more. I think there's potential for Sentinels, Bullgryns and Rough Riders, but I'm not sure where I'd put them yet.




This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/14 12:50:07


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

I'm surprised you rated Infantry Squads as only being passable. They seem great to me.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





UK

 vipoid wrote:
I'm surprised you rated Infantry Squads as only being passable. They seem great to me.



They're sort of borderline competitively useful in my mind, but now that they're more inconvenient to field without the combined squads rule, in terms of morale and orders, I'm struggling to see the point of them. If I need heavy weapons, I'll probably just take Heavy Weapon Squads instead seeing how they're obscenely cheap. I've always used my infantry like bubblewrap for the fire support elements with the strict purpose that the hope is if I get attacked head on with infantry they can peel them off and not have to worry about morale. I think with the changes we're seeing the ultra-multiplied Conscript blob with an officer, priest and commissar does this job better now.

What time will tell is basically if they can be made useful by having so many small units, so you can go about using the fight phase to stop enemy melee units from getting near your lines. Then you can start peppering them with another layer of squads if you go for some sort of staggered deployment.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/14 11:59:37


 
   
Made in is
Guardsman with Flashlight



Iceland

I think you will see Hydras come out when we start seeing the wave serpent spam, i find a lot of thinks have the key word FLY.

 
   
Made in gb
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer





Kazakhstan

@ Mr.Omega

What's the issue with Sergeant Harker, re-rolling ones on shooting is excellent and for only 50 points!
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





Bullgryns with Slabshields and Mauls are expensive, but they're also rocking a 2+ save and are quite dangerous in combat.
I'd put them in meh/passable at the very least.

I'm torn on rough riders as well. On the plus side they became slightly cheaper and the Lance is no longer one-use only.
On the downside they're only A1 with the lance (horse-attacks don't really compensate) and actually became slower.
I'll need to playtest before I judge them.

5500 pts
6500 pts
7000 pts
9000 pts
13.000 pts
 
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





UK

 iddy00711 wrote:
@ Mr.Omega

What's the issue with Sergeant Harker, re-rolling ones on shooting is excellent and for only 50 points!


We can already do that with the take aim order if its really neccessary for something like HWS' and re-rolling ones only is a bit of a meh buff to begin with, not really something you'd start a concrete strategy with. Maybe I'm being a little harsh, but considering most of the other force multipliers are under 50 pts (i.e Priests, Commissars, Officers) I don't see his appeal
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 Mr.Omega wrote:
This is how I see things right now


Command squads come out to the same price per model as a SWS (4 models * 6 pts = 24 pts; 6 models * 4 pts = 24 pts) and they can take four special weapons or a heavy weapon, are BS 3+, and have the advantage of being able to be crammed 3 to a Valkyrie as opposed to the SWS 2 squads. They're almost always demonstrably better (and unlike other comparisons made they're better in the same role) except when you want to take demolition charges or you think those extra two bodies are worth the BS hit (which is never).

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in gb
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer





Kazakhstan

Harker has an AOE re-roll, place him in the back with Manticores and Mortars, Lascannons or Conscript blobs. The more units he has around him, the more efficient he is for the points.

As for Manticores I'd place them in 'Meh' group for competitive games. Having only 4 shots and rolling 2D6, both limits the overall damage output and increases the randomness, which is something you need less of. They also have a limited role - taking out 2w TEQs and light tanks, which can be done better by more versatile and predictable units.

The one mission they would do well in is Big Guns, purely for the fact that it becomes harmless after turn 4.
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





UK

 daedalus wrote:
 Mr.Omega wrote:
This is how I see things right now


Command squads come out to the same price per model as a SWS (4 models * 6 pts = 24 pts; 6 models * 4 pts = 24 pts) and they can take four special weapons or a heavy weapon, are BS 3+, and have the advantage of being able to be crammed 3 to a Valkyrie as opposed to the SWS 2 squads. They're almost always demonstrably better (and unlike other comparisons made they're better in the same role) except when you want to take demolition charges or you think those extra two bodies are worth the BS hit (which is never).


Whoops, you're right and that's a compelling argument, I seem to have got it into my head that they were still scarce whereas you can pretty much spam them now as support units. GW might FAQ that in future but even then it'll probably be future-proofed by how spammable officers are, if they make officers a requirement like I think they might. I think they're worth moving to competitive on that basis, having 3 tooled up Command Squads pop out of a Valkyrie definitely sounds interesting

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 12:43:08


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: