Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

They're sort of borderline competitively useful in my mind, but now that they're more inconvenient to field without the combined squads rule, in terms of morale and orders, I'm struggling to see the point of them. If I need heavy weapons, I'll probably just take Heavy Weapon Squads instead seeing how they're obscenely cheap. I've always used my infantry like bubblewrap for the fire support elements with the strict purpose that the hope is if I get attacked head on with infantry they can peel them off and not have to worry about morale. I think with the changes we're seeing the ultra-multiplied Conscript blob with an officer, priest and commissar does this job better now.

What time will tell is basically if they can be made useful by having so many small units, so you can go about using the fight phase to stop enemy melee units from getting near your lines. Then you can start peppering them with another layer of squads if you go for some sort of staggered deployment.

Okay, here's my counterargument:
- Firstly, I don't see the loss of combined squads as being a huge detriment to them. There are downsides, sure, but there are also a lot of upsides - not least that you have far more control over where each unit moves and fires.
- What's more, Company Commanders are now half the price they were in 7th and can no longer be sniped by normal shooting. Not only that, but the FoC make it easy to bring several of them. Commissars are likewise cheap and also untargetable by non-sniper weapons, and now affect units in a large aura around them.
- Heavy Weapons are more efficient in terms of damage, but also vastly more vulnerable - as every casualty has to be a precious heavy weapon. They're also less rewarding to field in terms of both CPs and HQ slots.
- Meanwhile, in order to get to the Heavy/Special weapons in an infantry squad, you have to go through the entire squad. This also makes them much better at holding objectives and such - as you have far more expendable bodies to use.
- What's more, one of the biggest weaknesses in 7th has been removed - now each infantry squad can fire its lasguns, heavy weapon and special weapon at separate targets.
- Plasmaguns and plasma pistols are both very good and very cheap.

In essence, they provide bodies that are almost as cheap as conscripts, whilst having better BS and full access to special and heavy weapons.


(It could well be that I'm overvaluing them, but on paper they certainly seem very good to me. Maybe I'm blinded by my joy that infantry guard may finally be playable again. )

I overvalue them too, but I'm an old 5th edition powerblob player. I'm loading up on pistols and plasmaguns and shoot/charge/retreat/repeat until I'm blue in the face.

 vipoid wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

They're sort of borderline competitively useful in my mind, but now that they're more inconvenient to field without the combined squads rule, in terms of morale and orders, I'm struggling to see the point of them. If I need heavy weapons, I'll probably just take Heavy Weapon Squads instead seeing how they're obscenely cheap. I've always used my infantry like bubblewrap for the fire support elements with the strict purpose that the hope is if I get attacked head on with infantry they can peel them off and not have to worry about morale. I think with the changes we're seeing the ultra-multiplied Conscript blob with an officer, priest and commissar does this job better now.

What time will tell is basically if they can be made useful by having so many small units, so you can go about using the fight phase to stop enemy melee units from getting near your lines. Then you can start peppering them with another layer of squads if you go for some sort of staggered deployment.

Okay, here's my counterargument:
- Firstly, I don't see the loss of combined squads as being a huge detriment to them. There are downsides, sure, but there are also a lot of upsides - not least that you have far more control over where each unit moves and fires.
- What's more, Company Commanders are now half the price they were in 7th and can no longer be sniped by normal shooting. Not only that, but the FoC make it easy to bring several of them. Commissars are likewise cheap and also untargetable by non-sniper weapons, and now affect units in a large aura around them.
- Heavy Weapons are more efficient in terms of damage, but also vastly more vulnerable - as every casualty has to be a precious heavy weapon. They're also less rewarding to field in terms of both CPs and HQ slots.
- Meanwhile, in order to get to the Heavy/Special weapons in an infantry squad, you have to go through the entire squad. This also makes them much better at holding objectives and such - as you have far more expendable bodies to use.
- What's more, one of the biggest weaknesses in 7th has been removed - now each infantry squad can fire its lasguns, heavy weapon and special weapon at separate targets.
- Plasmaguns and plasma pistols are both very good and very cheap.

In essence, they provide bodies that are almost as cheap as conscripts, whilst having better BS and full access to special and heavy weapons.


(It could well be that I'm overvaluing them, but on paper they certainly seem very good to me. Maybe I'm blinded by my joy that infantry guard may finally be playable again. )

You make a particularly good point about plasma guns/plasma pistols. I'm not too impressed about taking the other special weapons with infantry squads but that amount of plasma making for a bargain 52 pt squad sounds like a pretty solid way of running them if you take a few squads. I'll have to playtest that at some point to see if Infantry Squads are as inconvenient as I think but its definitely promising.

It might be the case that a balance of conscripts with just a Commissar as a meatshield (seeing as how the ultra-multiplied blob is fairly all out), backed up by a second line of tooled out, cheap but effective infantry squads that can pour plasma and more accurate FRFSRF lasgun fire in as the Conscripts retreat is a good way to run Guard infantry.

I agree with that. I can see conscripts up front backed up with infantry squads with this loadout

Infantry squad, plasma gun, heavy bolter, bolter. 56pts

Cheap bodies, and have weapons that damage basically anything efficiently, point for point.

The only issue I have with them is that they add even more kill points for missions that use them...

 Mr.Omega wrote:

You make a particularly good point about plasma guns/plasma pistols. I'm not too impressed about taking the other special weapons with infantry squads but that amount of plasma making for a bargain 52 pt squad sounds like a pretty solid way of running them if you take a few squads. I'll have to playtest that at some point to see if Infantry Squads are as inconvenient as I think but its definitely promising.

It's a shame the other weapons are so bad. I used to really love flamers but there doesn't seem much point to them now.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

It might be the case that a balance of conscripts with just a Commissar as a meatshield (seeing as how the ultra-multiplied blob is fairly all out), backed up by a second line of tooled out, cheap but effective infantry squads that can pour plasma and more accurate FRFSRF lasgun fire in as the Conscripts retreat is a good way to run Guard infantry.

Personally, I'm going to try without the conscripts and just use a load of infantry squads. No idea if it'll work, but hopefully it will at least be fun.

This is why Harker is good:

1.) A Heavy Bolter, and the guys who carry it, cost about 11 points in. Heavy weapon squad. Harker's Heavy Bolter, Payback, is assault, AP2, and BS4. Maybe one thinks the HWS version is overdosed at 11, but let's be conservative and say Harker's shooting is woth about 10 points.

2.) A Company Commander is worth 30 points, and can put out 2 orders. Harker can put out an order equivalent for each unit in range, so he has a high ceiling, but less flexibility than the Commander.

3.) Harker works on vehicles. Orders work on infantry units.

4.) You can stack Harker's ability with orders. Each unit can only receive one order, so you get re-rolls on 1s from Harker, then another order from an officer.

I don't think that flamers are that bad. They cost the same like plasma guns and auto hit (even in overwatch).

So maybe give them to your frontline against assault based armys.

 lash92 wrote:
I don't think that flamers are that bad. They cost the same like plasma guns and auto hit (even in overwatch).

So maybe give them to your frontline against assault based armys.

It's possible to mitigate the flamer overwatch pretty easily. All he needs to do is move his unit to 8.1" away from your closest model. There's a 58.33% chance he's going to roll a 7 or higher on 2d6.

I mean, your opponent risks losing his assault, but he's also the one who gets to make that choice against you.

Biophysical wrote:
This is why Harker is good:

1.) A Heavy Bolter, and the guys who carry it, cost about 11 points in. Heavy weapon squad. Harker's Heavy Bolter, Payback, is assault, AP2, and BS4. Maybe one thinks the HWS version is overdosed at 11, but let's be conservative and say Harker's shooting is woth about 10 points.

2.) A Company Commander is worth 30 points, and can put out 2 orders. Harker can put out an order equivalent for each unit in range, so he has a high ceiling, but less flexibility than the Commander.

3.) Harker works on vehicles. Orders work on infantry units.

4.) You can stack Harker's ability with orders. Each unit can only receive one order, so you get re-rolls on 1s from Harker, then another order from an officer.

Harker seems damn good. He does some work on his own with Payback, and his rerolling ones bubble can work on multiple units, or units that aren't eligible for orders, most notably superheavies....

 daedalus wrote:

 lash92 wrote:
I don't think that flamers are that bad. They cost the same like plasma guns and auto hit (even in overwatch).

So maybe give them to your frontline against assault based armys.

It's possible to mitigate the flamer overwatch pretty easily. All he needs to do is move his unit to 8.1" away from your closest model. There's a 58.33% chance he's going to roll a 7 or higher on 2d6.

I mean, your opponent risks losing his assault, but he's also the one who gets to make that choice against you.

But it wouldn't matter if he rolled a 7. 7+1=8, not 8.1. The relevant odds are those for rolling an 8 or higher.

Sincollector wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 lash92 wrote:
I don't think that flamers are that bad. They cost the same like plasma guns and auto hit (even in overwatch).

So maybe give them to your frontline against assault based armys.

It's possible to mitigate the flamer overwatch pretty easily. All he needs to do is move his unit to 8.1" away from your closest model. There's a 58.33% chance he's going to roll a 7 or higher on 2d6.

I mean, your opponent risks losing his assault, but he's also the one who gets to make that choice against you.

But it wouldn't matter if he rolled a 7. 7+1=8, not 8.1. The relevant odds are those for rolling an 8 or higher.

Yes. You're right. I'm doing too many things at once. 41% or so then. It's still something you can mitigate if you're driven to do so.

 daedalus wrote:

Sincollector wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 lash92 wrote:
I don't think that flamers are that bad. They cost the same like plasma guns and auto hit (even in overwatch).

So maybe give them to your frontline against assault based armys.

It's possible to mitigate the flamer overwatch pretty easily. All he needs to do is move his unit to 8.1" away from your closest model. There's a 58.33% chance he's going to roll a 7 or higher on 2d6.

I mean, your opponent risks losing his assault, but he's also the one who gets to make that choice against you.

But it wouldn't matter if he rolled a 7. 7+1=8, not 8.1. The relevant odds are those for rolling an 8 or higher.

Yes. You're right. I'm doing too many things at once. 41% or so then. It's still something you can mitigate if you're driven to do so.

You could make the argument that if flamers cause the enemy to try longer charges and thus fail them more often, then they are worthwhile for that fact alone.

Imo only 41% charge chance for 7 pts is pretty good.

And if your opponent fails (which he will do more often then not) then he he has in the best case scenario for you a squad in front of him with:

- D6 auto-hit flamer attacks
- 24 lasgun shots (if you can give your squad FRFSRF

Plus you can charge your self or overwatch with the flamer the next time he charges.

Biophysical wrote:
This is why Harker is good:

1.) A Heavy Bolter, and the guys who carry it, cost about 11 points in. Heavy weapon squad. Harker's Heavy Bolter, Payback, is assault, AP2, and BS4. Maybe one thinks the HWS version is overdosed at 11, but let's be conservative and say Harker's shooting is woth about 10 points.

2.) A Company Commander is worth 30 points, and can put out 2 orders. Harker can put out an order equivalent for each unit in range, so he has a high ceiling, but less flexibility than the Commander.

3.) Harker works on vehicles. Orders work on infantry units.

4.) You can stack Harker's ability with orders. Each unit can only receive one order, so you get re-rolls on 1s from Harker, then another order from an officer.

My problem with Harker is that it has to be Catachans. I dont have the models, and im sure my opponent will raise an eyebrow when i point at my Cadians and say: those are Catachans and can thus benefit from Harker.

Doctoralex wrote:
My problem with Harker is that it has to be Catachans. I dont have the models, and im sure my opponent will raise an eyebrow when i point at my Cadians and say: those are Catachans and can thus benefit from Harker.

I have never seen this be a problem with anyone who wouldn't be a pain to play against for other reasons anyway.

You can can convert your own using cadian and scout bits.
The rule seems to be in place to prevent Creed, Kell, Pask, Straken and Harker all in one detachment.

Doctoralex wrote:

Biophysical wrote:

My problem with Harker is that it has to be Catachans. I dont have the models, and im sure my opponent will raise an eyebrow when i point at my Cadians and say: those are Catachans and can thus benefit from Harker.

I have an older metal SM Scout model with heavy bolter that I use for my "Cadian Harker". He's a little smaller than a modern SM, and still large for a guardsman, so he's a pretty good size. No one's complained yet.

I'm wondering if Rough Riders would be a good platform for plasma now with their abilty to outflank and relative cheapness.

Any thoughts on the other Special Characters?

 vipoid wrote:
Any thoughts on the other Special Characters?

If you like tanks Pask is still pretty nice.
He hits on 2+ and can give 2 orders. He also has the ability to order himself and other tank commanders.

I haven´t looked on the other characters yet.

 Trickstick wrote:

Doctoralex wrote:
My problem with Harker is that it has to be Catachans. I dont have the models, and im sure my opponent will raise an eyebrow when i point at my Cadians and say: those are Catachans and can thus benefit from Harker.

I have never seen this be a problem with anyone who wouldn't be a pain to play against for other reasons anyway.

Ditto...tomorrow night I'm going to have a gaggle of necron warriors stand in for scions

Mavnas wrote:
I'm wondering if Rough Riders would be a good platform for plasma now with their abilty to outflank and relative cheapness.

And the fact that it no longer interferes with their charge.

 lash92 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Any thoughts on the other Special Characters?

If you like tanks Pask is still pretty nice.
He hits on 2+ and can give 2 orders. He also has the ability to order himself and other tank commanders.

I haven´t looked on the other characters yet.

Pask is is going to be essential to any gun-line guard army. If you think about it, as soon as recieve a -1 to hit (Harlequin star weavers, conceal, Venomthropes etc) the guard line becomes almost unless (hitting on 5/6). Pask on the other hand is hitting on 3s with a re-roll of 1.

 vipoid wrote:
Any thoughts on the other Special Characters?

Creed is a somewhat more effective Company Commander for more than twice the price, but he also brings with him 2 Command Points.

Kell is basically terrible, as re-rolls for morale most likely won't matter as long as you have enough Commissars, the additional order he grants to an officer can be resolved by just taking another officer and his bodyguard rule for Creed requires Creed in the first place.

Pask has been discussed and is probably good enough to warrant use.

Straken is quite fighty and gives every Catachan unit close to him an additional attack, but I don't think his close combat prowess is good enough compared to what he might face. I'm not sure enough about a close combat Guard list to actually claim whether he's good enough or not.

Harker seems good.

Yarrick is pretty cool, but suffers from the same problem as Harker. He's a little tougher (due having a chance not to die), deals less daamge, acts as a Commissar and grants re-rolls of 1/failed hits vs Orks. But he's also quite expensive and I think you would be better served by simply including even more characters.

Nork hits stuff hard. Might as well include him if you want to melee a lot.


Nonetheless, but most of them, I think you need to ask yourself the question: do I need this character, or would I be better served by simply taking more Company Commanders, Platoon Commanders or Commissars? Considering how many units we might need to order around and how cheap our generic characters are, I think I would prefer not using unique ones but none of them seem terrible except Kell. Then again, I play Death Korps and won't use them anyway unless that list is godawful.

I'm having a hard time getting my head around Straken. He is roughly the cost of a Company Commander + an Eviscerator Priest, and has roughly similar skills and bonuses to those two models put together.

In editions past, his close combat ability has been formidable. Less so this edition, and it's an edition where close combat matters that much less, as your guys can fall back from combat while their friends shoot at the enemy. With no blobs, and no bonuses for charging, his +1 attack bubble is just not making any guard squads that significant. Maybe there's something to doubling him up with a Priest to get +2 attacks on squads in 6". 3 attack Guardsmen aren't doing a whole lot, though. Maybe it's enough to help squads finish off enemies that they charge to limit swings back, but I'm skeptical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Straken is crazy tough compared to regular officers, however. 3+ save and T4 woth an extra sound is major, but how often are you getting officers in combat? I honestly don't know.

I imagine Yarrick and Harker are useful for situations where you can't use orders to give things rerolls on ones like superheavies (I doubt they can keep up with Hellhounds/variants.) or just a bunch of units. It would be pretty inefficient to order 3-5 heavy weapons teams directly (or you could order them to also reroll 1s on wounds).

 iddy00711 wrote:

 lash92 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Any thoughts on the other Special Characters?

If you like tanks Pask is still pretty nice.
He hits on 2+ and can give 2 orders. He also has the ability to order himself and other tank commanders.

I haven´t looked on the other characters yet.

Pask is is going to be essential to any gun-line guard army. If you think about it, as soon as recieve a -1 to hit (Harlequin star weavers, conceal, Venomthropes etc) the guard line becomes almost unless (hitting on 5/6). Pask on the other hand is hitting on 3s with a re-roll of 1.

I do not believe pask can order himself, since it says he can only order other characters. I believe the the best tank loadouts is a tank commander with buddy, both with demolishers and flamers, due to heavy bolter sponsons getting -1 to hit when moving. I wont use pask since i believe harker us a better force multiplier.

There has been some discussion about Pask and his orders.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/728025.page

 ThePie wrote:

 iddy00711 wrote:

 lash92 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Any thoughts on the other Special Characters?

If you like tanks Pask is still pretty nice.
He hits on 2+ and can give 2 orders. He also has the ability to order himself and other tank commanders.

I haven´t looked on the other characters yet.

Pask is is going to be essential to any gun-line guard army. If you think about it, as soon as recieve a -1 to hit (Harlequin star weavers, conceal, Venomthropes etc) the guard line becomes almost unless (hitting on 5/6). Pask on the other hand is hitting on 3s with a re-roll of 1.

I do not believe pask can order himself, since it says he can only order other characters. I believe the the best tank loadouts is a tank commander with buddy, both with demolishers and flamers, due to heavy bolter sponsons getting -1 to hit when moving. I wont use pask since i believe harker us a better force multiplier.

Well yes, it is certainly implied that he cannot order himself, with the Note that Knight Commander Pask can issue orders to other Cadian Leman Russ Characters-line, but nothing expressly forbids him from ordering himself as well. We might get some clarification on this issue later on, but you are free to play as you wish.

IG players of 8th - what do you feel are the weakness' of your faction?

What should an opposing player try to capitalize on if they want to win a battle against you?

Between Conscripts (with orders), Scions, HWT, and all the quality vehicles running around - it's hard to try and deal with everything.

If you manage to make it to melee - the IG just fall back, and shoot your face in.

Just trying to figure out what to be doing as an Ork player, when the IG can field more models and more firepower at the same points cost; can't outshoot them, and horde armies just get decimated by Manticore/Wyvern/HWT, and Conscripts (50-200 shots is no joke).

Even if you kill a lot of them, morale kill isn't an option since the Commissar turns it into 1d3 dead, at most.

Lack of snipers makes it that much harder to take out the crucial backline characters as well.