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One big weaknesses of IG is drop count.

Many of our most cost efficient units such as infantry squads bloat our drop count. We also need a lot of characters that bloat our drop count unless we buy expensive Chimeras.

Hello all,

I am struggling to find reliable and efficient tank killing other than melta guns on scions.

Pask with MM and Lascannon is pretty good but expensive. He would be a big target for your opponent and after a good amount of wounds, if you move him he is hitting on 4's.

Lascannon Heavy Weapon teams seem okay, but take a good amount of backfield support.

Anyone have any advice on how to get some good, reliable, and cost effective tank killing? I have been building towards a more mobile and mechanized AM, using Vets in Chimeras with a conscript blob to screen for my backline units like Manticores and Mortar HWTs

Evillain09 wrote:
Lascannon Heavy Weapon teams seem okay, but take a good amount of backfield support.

You can put lascannons in your basic infantry squads. With split fire, you no longer have to worry about wasting the lasguns. This gives you a lot of ablative wounds and also lets you fire lascannons one at a time, so you are not wasting them through overkill.

I am trying to go a more mobile, mech build. I also like using Vets for their firepower. But I could see that being pretty good with charchater support.

The Tarux Prime seems pretty good. Missle launcer and 2 Autocannons. A little pricey, but a lot of firepower starting at BS3

I sort of like the idea of this core (inspired from Frontline):

-Vets & Chimera 2x HF
-Vets & Chimera 2x HF
-Vets Chimera 2x HF
-Scions & Taurox Prime, 2x AC, ML
-Scion Command Squad, Taurox Prime, 2xAC, ML
-Banewolf, HF
-Banewolf, HF

A lot of mech firepower and then you compliment the HF's with Vets with plasma/melta and scions doing the same thing. You need to protect against alpha strikes and probably support with an assualt unit (Bullgyrns). Has anyone here tested this sort of mech, fast and hard hitting startegies?

Evillain09 wrote:
I am trying to go a more mobile, mech build. I also like using Vets for their firepower. But I could see that being pretty good with charchater support.

Sure it´s a lot of firepower but imo too expensive. For so many points you can nearly add a LR.

What is too expensive?

I'm pretty sure that mathematically, the gatling gun and volley guns on the Taurox Prime are more dangerous agaidn t more targets, and a lot cheaper. Reduced range, but I think that's okay.

I really think the flexibility of the ML make it worth it. Also AM have access to super cheap infantry killing in dirt cheap flammers and Mortars. The one thing that bugs me about LRs is that they are BS4. When you move you need 5s to hit with side and front weapon. The Prime's defense is weaker, but it is more accurate and it's weapons are good.

I will have to try things out, but on paper the ML, 2xAC combo seems really good in a TAC list that can support it with screens and anti-infantry.

I'm still trying to figure out if I can build a list around a Shadowsword. The volcano cannon + 4 lascannons seem like a good enough way to remove 1-2 vehicles per turn, but I feel so many extra points are going into trying to protect it further and/or profit from the various auras around it that my army would mostly end up stationary and unable to actually take objectives even after I've shot the enemy off them.

I think that is a good way to look at the Baneblades. You don't want to move them becuase they still get punished by the -1. So you have to bring conscripts and other screens.

I want to play a fast more mobile army, so I am leaning towards our transports/Devil Dog variants/ Scions. I personally think HF on Chimeras are really good. You have to get every wound off the Chimera before it stops doing dmg, and the overwatch is great. It's expensive but in my mind effective.

I think static armies need to fine tune their lists and think a lot about positioning, the HQ buffs, and how defend against melee armies.

Evillain09 wrote:
What is too expensive?

Sorry quoted the wrong sentence. I was talking about the Prime with Missle Launcher and 2 x Autocanon

Evillain09 wrote:
The one thing that bugs me about LRs is that they are BS4. When you move you need 5s to hit with side and front weapon. The Prime's defense is weaker, but it is more accurate and it's weapons are good.

But the LRs accuracy can still be improved with tank orders.

From Tank commanders, which most likely means taking Pask. I see your point, but that also gets expensive.You can almost take 2 Primes for a Pask.

Evillain09 wrote:
I think that is a good way to look at the Baneblades. You don't want to move them becuase they still get punished by the -1. So you have to bring conscripts and other screens.

I want to play a fast more mobile army, so I am leaning towards our transports/Devil Dog variants/ Scions. I personally think HF on Chimeras are really good. You have to get every wound off the Chimera before it stops doing dmg, and the overwatch is great. It's expensive but in my mind effective.

I think static armies need to fine tune their lists and think a lot about positioning, the HQ buffs, and how defend against melee armies.

I think flamer costs went up too much this edition. They're good, but not that good, although maybe for vehicles that want to be that far forward for delivering troops, I could see it? I could also see it on a Hellhammer/other shortish range super-heavy to provide anti-melee overwatch protection, but the -1BS for moving is so painful.

On the other hand, you often want your baneblades in combat, since it means your opponents can't shoot at you, but you can shoot at them. Which is a pretty solid reason to keep moving and just deal with the -1 BS

Yeah I have read a lot of people saying HFs are over priced, but they auto hit, get around - to hit, rend, auto hits on overwatch and never degrade on vehicles. So I think you get the value.

I think the major thing about using them on vehicles is to build your list around it. Don't just throw it on a random vehicle. If your list is aggressive and uses transports and can threaten flanks than I think that's where flammers make sense and will shine.

Evillain09 wrote:
From Tank commanders, which most likely means taking Pask. I see your point, but that also gets expensive.You can almost take 2 Primes for a Pask.

Thats right, but Pask gives you even the ability to hit on +2 with rerolling 1´s and the ability to order another tank.

I really also like the Prime but I just think that this load out is overkill, I prefer the Gatling Canon + Hot-Shot-Volley Gun against infantry.
For the points of the ML variant you could take 2 HWT with Lascanons, i guess that´s also quite effective for tank hunting

Bs4, Bs 5 if you move, static and needs support around it, but yeah it works too, just not in a mobile list.

Pask fills in the -1 BS problem that a guard army can face. In terms of numbers, the primes are slightly better but Pask is significantly less random - if you need 29 S5 shots, that's what you'll get.

I'm going to play my first game of 8th tomorrow, tell me what you think of my list (we are playing 50 power level each):

Total Power Level: 50
Total Command Points: 8

BATTALION DETACHEMENT

HQ
Knight Commander Pask (LRBT, lascannon, plasma) 14
Creed 4

TROOPS
Infantry Squad (Plasma Pistol, Gun & ML) 3
Infantry Squad (Plasma Pistol, Gun & ML) 3
Infantry Squad (Plasma Pistol, Gun & ML) 3

ELITES
Astropath (to put +1 to Pask's save) 1
Ratlings (5) 2
Commissar 2

FAST ATTACK
Rough Riders (10) 5
Scout Sentinels (Heavy Flamer, Chainblades) (3) 6

Heavy Support
Manticore 7

I'm not sold on what tank to put Pask in, considering a Vanquishier. I'm also not sure about the plasma sponsons vs MMs.

Evillain09 wrote:
Yeah I have read a lot of people saying HFs are over priced, but they auto hit, get around - to hit, rend, auto hits on overwatch and never degrade on vehicles. So I think you get the value.

I think the major thing about using them on vehicles is to build your list around it. Don't just throw it on a random vehicle. If your list is aggressive and uses transports and can threaten flanks than I think that's where flammers make sense and will shine.

I was specifically talking about flamers. HF at least have that S5 and -1 going for them and overwatch from 8 is pretty murderous. Regular flamers are barely better than non-overcharged plasma against infantry and worse against all else.

So, reading through this thread I am just wondering how much I am hurting my army by not having any snipers. Are Command Squad snipers going to be worth it?

Thinking of having three snipers and a medic in two of my four command squads, and running triple Plasma Gun and medic in the other two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, looking back on some people's comments about Yarrick, he grants all friendly Astra Militarum units within 6" the ability to reroll 1's when attacking, it becomes rerolling ANY failed to hit rolls against Orks. I am very excited to use Yarrick with three infantry squads, it will definitely make the Bring it Down! order go that much further.

That, and I have always had a soft spot in my heart for the crazy old retiree kicking ass and taking names.

I think snipers are overrated since they're single shot and will have trouble putting wounds on anything major. Against IG though, I could see someone getting lucky and sniping a key commisar right before they unload one a blob or two.

Mavnas wrote:
I think snipers are overrated since they're single shot and will have trouble putting wounds on anything major. Against IG though, I could see someone getting lucky and sniping a key commisar right before they unload one a blob or two.

I think Tyrannids have got a similar buff rule like IG. (something called synapses if I recall correctly?)

If you want to add some snipers I would take a look at the Vindicare. He looks not to shabby for 90pts.

Evillain09 wrote:
Hello all,

I am struggling to find reliable and efficient tank killing other than melta guns on scions.

It doesn't exist in this edition, because tanks are much more durable.

Mavnas wrote:
I think snipers are overrated since they're single shot and will have trouble putting wounds on anything major. Against IG though, I could see someone getting lucky and sniping a key commisar right before they unload one a blob or two.

Word on the street is that 2 Vindicares is a thing now. Ratlings are good but it all depends on what type of system you're playing in (ETC vs ITC etc), as they are an easy kill point.

Although unless you're investing heavily, snipers won't actually do that much (1-2 weak characters a game IF you can draw line of sight etc), what they are good at is forcing your opponent to play conservatively.

I'm uncertain if pask can issue orders to himself as well. Because under the "knight commander" ability it states the can issues orders to "other" cadian leman russ characters. I understand his profile both has leman russ and characters but it didn't say he could order himself.

 tankboy145 wrote:
I'm uncertain if pask can issue orders to himself as well. Because under the "knight commander" ability it states the can issues orders to "other" cadian leman russ characters. I understand his profile both has leman russ and characters but it didn't say he could order himself.

The main thing is that, unlike normal tank commanders, Pask never has the restriction on ordering characters in the first place. The wording of his rule is different.

 Trickstick wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:
I'm uncertain if pask can issue orders to himself as well. Because under the "knight commander" ability it states the can issues orders to "other" cadian leman russ characters. I understand his profile both has leman russ and characters but it didn't say he could order himself.

The main thing is that, unlike normal tank commanders, Pask never has the restriction on ordering characters in the first place. The wording of his rule is different.

But that's so he can order other tank commanders. Because it says to give and order pick a friendly leman russ within 6"

Alcibiades wrote:

Evillain09 wrote:
Hello all,

I am struggling to find reliable and efficient tank killing other than melta guns on scions.

It doesn't exist in this edition, because tanks are much more durable.

6 lascannon impacts would do the trick, or two times this number of manticore misiles impacts, or four times this number of autocannon impacts, they are all reliable and efficient tank killing options. IG have plenty options about it.
But 12 lascannon are about 450 points, 4 manticores about 530... At this range of points you can also deploy a shadowsword, that is also, another way of kill an enemy tank per turn with some reliability.

A turox prime could be an even more efficient tank killer with hotshot volley and gatling, at close range and stationary, 3 of them kill a tank at average for les than 300 points, of course is hard to be at 12" of the enemy without any movement, but on the other hand, they are at the same time excellent anti-orde machines and fairly resistant for their cost, and versatilty comes with a price (not in points in this case).

And yes, cuatrimelta tempestus command squad are even more efficient, at 84 points the unit, two of them could deep strike and destroy a tank with reliability at just 170 points, ultra efficient, but after that, if they can shoot other things, is only because your opponent is doing very very weird things...

Are those options efficient? Well, yes, in 8° ed you will usually need between 2 and 4 times the points of the víctim in specialized weaponrry to kill it in one turn, so to kill tanks of more than 100 points you will have to invest in anti tank about 300-600, thats sound reasonable.
There are few armys, if any, with such a plethora of efficient ways of destroying enemy tanks.

 daedalus wrote:

 lash92 wrote:
I don't think that flamers are that bad. They cost the same like plasma guns and auto hit (even in overwatch).

So maybe give them to your frontline against assault based armys.

It's possible to mitigate the flamer overwatch pretty easily. All he needs to do is move his unit to 8.1" away from your closest model. There's a 58.33% chance he's going to roll a 7 or higher on 2d6.

I mean, your opponent risks losing his assault, but he's also the one who gets to make that choice against you.

I don't see many assault forces taking that risk. Free Overwatch, plus the unit is hung out to dry over 50% of the time. More likely they just assault somewhere else if they can't eat the flamer. Flamers are going to be an important part of the meta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mavnas wrote:

Evillain09 wrote:
Yeah I have read a lot of people saying HFs are over priced, but they auto hit, get around - to hit, rend, auto hits on overwatch and never degrade on vehicles. So I think you get the value.

I think the major thing about using them on vehicles is to build your list around it. Don't just throw it on a random vehicle. If your list is aggressive and uses transports and can threaten flanks than I think that's where flammers make sense and will shine.

I was specifically talking about flamers. HF at least have that S5 and -1 going for them and overwatch from 8 is pretty murderous. Regular flamers are barely better than non-overcharged plasma against infantry and worse against all else.

Overwatch is significant, especially when units can Fall Back and get charged multiple times in a game.