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 JB wrote:

Doctoralex wrote:

As you can see the difference isn't extreme. However, given how expandable Astropaths are and them having a nice boon if giving Ignore Cover to nearby units gives them my preference.
The fact that they are so expandable also means you can set one up (pretty much on a suicide mission) for a nice Gaze of the Emperor.
Laugh as your opponent forgot to spread out his men to the ONLY THING IN THE GAME WHERE YOU STILL DO IT, MUHAHAHAHA.

What do you guys think?

I agree with your main point that Astropaths are a better option than Primaris but I don't think the Gaze of the Emperor is quite as good as you think it is. The 2D6 inches is fairly random and you have to avoid your own units. Then it only has a 50% chance of causing a mortal wound per enemy unit under the 2D6 line.

True, but that's why you throw a sacrifical Astropath to an enemy blob.

On average Emperor's Gaze will be 7". You have to be more than an inch away, but let's say that you create a line of 6" to cover a blob.

You can easily get 10+ models under the beam, meaning you will on average kill 5 of them, meaning the Astropath has already well made up it's cost even if it's just Hormagaunts or Boyz.

Keep in mind that you can move + advance and then still cast psychic abilities, to help get you as close as possible and cover as many models as possible with the beam.

Heck, even if you get four terminators covered in it. You will take down one termi, well worth it!

Emperor's Gaze is also a lot easier to cast (6 or higher, 59,3%) compared to the Astropath's 33% for Smite.
And bonus points if you Perils with double 6 and blow yourself up, taking even more guys with you

 argonak wrote:
I'm putting together some scions.

I bought one plain box:

1 Tempestor, chainsword and boltgun
1 Plasma
1 Melta
2 Hot Shot Lasguns

I have a start collecting box on the way.

I'm thinking of doing:
1 Tempestor Prime
1 Plasma
1 Melta
2 Hot Shot Volly Gun
5 Hot Shot Lasguns

I feel like this would give me some good variety of weapon options for the squad, plus the associated character. I don't want to lock myself into anything too hard, as this is my starting foray into 8th. I'm leaving my orks and space marines on their shelves for now.

Any thoughts? Would a flamer and grenade launcher be worth putting together? They seem a bit lackluster in comparison to the other three weapon types.

I would advise you to build as many plasma dudes as possible, with a pinch of meltaguns for good measure. Hot shot volley guns are mediocre.
GW still sells packs of 5 plasmaguns in their Finecast line. They come with a right SM hand that would not be out of place on a scion model.
This is the most direct way to have a lot of this very useful weapon without paying absurd amounts of money from bitz ebay stores.

To switch gears a litte, if you can support a backfield and protect it, I.E. conscripts and maybe some Bullgyrn,is there any reason to not bring 2-3 Manticores?

They seem very well positioned, as long as you can prevent alpha strikes/deepstrikes. Their price seems competitive, especially compared to LRs.

Anyone have opinions?

One Manticore, certainly, two most probably if you like it, tree is maybe too many.

The manticore is not an all-purpose ordnance tank, it is best at chasing down heavy stuff like transports, monsters, multi-wound heavy infantry. You will still need to dedicate some slots to deal with lighter and more numerous targets. For this work you will need units like mortars HWS , wyverns, dakka leman russ.

Yeah I agree, you need the balance.My whole thought process is that HWT Mortars are so cheap, that a backfield of Manticores and Mortars would compliment each other well. It's just about protecting them.

I wonder if a full Dakka version of Pask would work. 225 points for Gatling, 3x HB, Heavy Stubber. It's a cheaper verison and all those shots are hitting on 2's until you take dmg.

So the Malcador Infernus was shown on the community site. Looks like Malcadors are 6W more than a Russ for 3/4 more PL.

The infernus looks pretty tasty with its giant flamer and I have the feeling that if the Defender gets Grinding Advance it will also be quite fun.

I don't want to copypasta everywhere, so I'm going to link to the other thread:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/990/726992.page#9439268

I kinda wish we'd just have one going.

Thanks for the report.

What about a third, but proper thread with a fleshed-out first post, index to contributions, links and polls ? I could manage that if people want it.

Doctoralex wrote:

 JB wrote:

Doctoralex wrote:

As you can see the difference isn't extreme. However, given how expandable Astropaths are and them having a nice boon if giving Ignore Cover to nearby units gives them my preference.
The fact that they are so expandable also means you can set one up (pretty much on a suicide mission) for a nice Gaze of the Emperor.
Laugh as your opponent forgot to spread out his men to the ONLY THING IN THE GAME WHERE YOU STILL DO IT, MUHAHAHAHA.

What do you guys think?

I agree with your main point that Astropaths are a better option than Primaris but I don't think the Gaze of the Emperor is quite as good as you think it is. The 2D6 inches is fairly random and you have to avoid your own units. Then it only has a 50% chance of causing a mortal wound per enemy unit under the 2D6 line.

True, but that's why you throw a sacrifical Astropath to an enemy blob.

On average Emperor's Gaze will be 7". You have to be more than an inch away, but let's say that you create a line of 6" to cover a blob.

You can easily get 10+ models under the beam, meaning you will on average kill 5 of them, meaning the Astropath has already well made up it's cost even if it's just Hormagaunts or Boyz.

Keep in mind that you can move + advance and then still cast psychic abilities, to help get you as close as possible and cover as many models as possible with the beam.

Heck, even if you get four terminators covered in it. You will take down one termi, well worth it!

Emperor's Gaze is also a lot easier to cast (6 or higher, 59,3%) compared to the Astropath's 33% for Smite.
And bonus points if you Perils with double 6 and blow yourself up, taking even more guys with you

EDIT: NVM, you are right.

 JB wrote:
You still do not understand how it works. If your 7 inch line covers 1 model or 10 models from the same unit, your astropath has a 50% chance to cause one mortal wound to the unit. It does not attack each model.

"Roll a dice for each model the centre of the line passes over. On a 4+ that model's unit suffers a mortal wound."

So if you cover 10 models, you roll 10 dice, get 5 4+ and the unit takes 5 mortal wounds.

Yes, I just reread it. I was wrong.

EDIT: And now you have me thinking of adding a few more astropaths since all five available psyker powers have some utility. While I cannot use the same power twice, other than Smite, in each turn, I can find a good use for Pyschic Barrier every turn and the others will likely be useful against any army that likes to assault. May not be so useful versus other gunline armies due to the short range of the powers.

 JB wrote:
Yes, I just reread it. I was wrong.

Aw, but you are supposed to twist the meaning of the rule until we are arguing about models having eyes or not! Stop being so mature!

(-:

I'm not sure I like how disposable astropaths seem to be. They seem really suited to getting stuck in, denying some cover and using gaze to get some cheap wounds in. This seems weird when in the fluff they are quite rare and would never even be used on a battlefield.

 Trickstick wrote:

"Roll a dice for each model the centre of the line passes over. On a 4+ that model's unit suffers a mortal wound."

So if you cover 10 models, you roll 10 dice, get 5 4+ and the unit takes 5 mortal wounds.

It could be really powerful to drop an Astropath out of a Valkyrie since you could get the distance to put him wherever you wanted for maximum damage on the Gaze.

I will try using just two astropaths in a 2000 point list. I have been using one and he only cast Smite over and over again. I should have used him to cast Psychic Barrier on Pask's tank, whenever a target was not available for Smite.

EDIT: I only have six games of 8th edition so far and my local meta is not using many psykers yet.

Disregarding a baneblade with 4 twin heavy flamer sponsons (very much worth it, considering its alot of focused overwatch firepower, and that it can overwatch even if it is in assault). Ive found that taurox prime with gatling cannon and hot-shot volley guns are the best anti horde option AM currently has. 3+ ballistic skill, 20 str 4 shots and 8 str 4 -2ap shots, all on a decently durable vehicle for just 96 pts.

 ThePie wrote:
Disregarding a baneblade with 4 twin heavy flamer sponsons (very much worth it, considering its alot of focused overwatch firepower, and that it can overwatch even if it is in assault). Ive found that taurox prime with gatling cannon and hot-shot volley guns are the best anti horde option AM currently has. 3+ ballistic skill, 20 str 4 shots and 8 str 4 -2ap shots, all on a decently durable vehicle for just 96 pts.

Yeah but I really hate playing parking lot vehicles, I much prefer moving around with them. Which makes me lean towards fireball russes, hellhounds and flamer chimera. I may even pick back up the armoured lists I used to run if the FW index gives me some good things. The Death Riders already look good and would suit my cold one cadians quite well.

For their points, the Taurox Prime with gatling and volley is one of the better, if not the best, antihorde weaponry of all the imperium, or maybe of all 40k. The same could be said about the plasma scion elites with primer against multiwound enemies.

How are pure Militarum Tempestus lists looking in 8th?

Plasma Scions were absoultely stunning as adjuncts to my Adepta Sororitas against Orks at 1000 points. They completely shut down two units of Warbikers that were on the way to ruin my backfield. Totally awesome.

I've got two orders of Forge World's Hostile Environment Troopers with Plasma on the way to match my existing Kasrkin. Once I backfill with some extra plastic Cadians I have around, I'll be able to deploy six min/maxed squads for a Brigade.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-EU/Cadian-Hostile-Environment-Troops-Plasma-Squad

Do you guys think the Baneblade variants are more worthwhile to bring than a Knight for a LoW? They seem to have better shooting from a glance, but not as good combat (which makes sense).

I'm thinking of building my next army around a nice big model like a LoW, still deciding which ones to look at.

Requizen wrote:
Do you guys think the Baneblade variants are more worthwhile to bring than a Knight for a LoW? They seem to have better shooting from a glance, but not as good combat (which makes sense).

I'm thinking of building my next army around a nice big model like a LoW, still deciding which ones to look at.

The Baneblande tanks are stonking great in combat. Can freely shoot out of it, has a pretty strong attack AND can't be targeted by shooting. 9 attacks at Ws 5+ S9 AP-2 Dd3 isn't something to scoff at.

 Aenarian wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Do you guys think the Baneblade variants are more worthwhile to bring than a Knight for a LoW? They seem to have better shooting from a glance, but not as good combat (which makes sense).

I'm thinking of building my next army around a nice big model like a LoW, still deciding which ones to look at.

The Baneblande tanks are stonking great in combat. Can freely shoot out of it, has a pretty strong attack AND can't be targeted by shooting. 9 attacks at Ws 5+ S9 AP-2 Dd3 isn't something to scoff at.

True! I've always been intrigued by a Guard army but the idea of building/painting so many dudes is pretty daunting to me. But it seems now that mechanized (or at least more vehicles than before) is more viable than in 7th?

Requizen wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Do you guys think the Baneblade variants are more worthwhile to bring than a Knight for a LoW? They seem to have better shooting from a glance, but not as good combat (which makes sense).

I'm thinking of building my next army around a nice big model like a LoW, still deciding which ones to look at.

The Baneblande tanks are stonking great in combat. Can freely shoot out of it, has a pretty strong attack AND can't be targeted by shooting. 9 attacks at Ws 5+ S9 AP-2 Dd3 isn't something to scoff at.

True! I've always been intrigued by a Guard army but the idea of building/painting so many dudes is pretty daunting to me. But it seems now that mechanized (or at least more vehicles than before) is more viable than in 7th?

Indeed, Taurox Prime to deal with hordes, with plasma scions embarked that can deal with any heavy and elite targets. A shadowsword baneblade with 4 sponsons (each with twin heavy flamer and lascannons) will be able to deal with every single type of target in the game, especially titanic units like wraith knights and imperial knights.

Why embark the plasma scions instead of just deepstrike them when and where they are most needed?

 Kaeldran wrote:
Why embark the plasma scions instead of just deepstrike them when and where they are most needed?

Seriously, you can get 9 Stormtroopers with Hellguns for less points than the cheapest possible Chimera. As is the Chimera is either an expensive transport that is only good at transporting and surviving or an overpriced weapon plattform compared to other available Chimera chassis variants as all your shots will only hit on 5+ as soon as you move (and you know, that's what a transport is there for). And yes, that includes the Flamer Chimera (hello there 105 point heavy flamer Bane Wolf, you sexy little beast~).

One of the reasons that Scions are so good is not that they are undercosted or overpowered (slightly too cheap Plasma guns aside, 9-10 points for a plasma gun would be fine too, but hellgun scions for the first time are finally at a good spot for 10 points now compared to bolter nuns and SM), it's simply that they massively benefit from having the super awesome teleport deployment that saves you a gazillion points in Chimeras that you would have to invest for mechanized vets. If you want your Scion squads to be more survivable (to hold objectives better, have more ablative wounds for your specials and also to benefit more from orders with fewer Primes (1 Tempestor Prime for 2 full Scion Squads is a massive amount of 1s to hit re-rolling dakka) then just deploy full squads of 10 with 4 special weapons.

Have people been using Infantry squads? It looks like a lot of people are skipping them either for just Conscript blobs or doing Spearhead detachment and taking tanks on tanks.

Requizen wrote:
Have people been using Infantry squads? It looks like a lot of people are skipping them either for just Conscript blobs or doing Spearhead detachment and taking tanks on tanks.

I'm taking infantry squads over conscripts. Mainly because I'm using them as the core of my army - not just to bubble-wrap a vehicle.

Currently, I have 2 builds:
- Infantry with plasmagun and lascannon or missile launcher.
- Infantry with plasma pistol and flamer

The first build can either sit on an objective or else advance up the field. The second build is meant for advancing and/or screening a more valuable squad.

The main things I'm considering at the moment is:
- Is it worth giving plasma pistols to the sergeants of mid- or back-field infantry squads?
- Is it worth giving heavy bolters to the advancing/screening squads?

Requizen wrote:
Have people been using Infantry squads? It looks like a lot of people are skipping them either for just Conscript blobs or doing Spearhead detachment and taking tanks on tanks.

Let's make a short summary of what Infantry squads offer over Conscripts for a measly 1 extra PPM:

- Leadership 7 instead of 4. Infantry Squads benefit from Commissars alot, but Conscripts NEED one around or half the blob will run away after the first few casualties (and we all know how potent snipers are this edition, particularly Rattlings). If the enemy has snipers and murders even just one of your commissars (let alone two or three) then the Conscripts turn into dead weight. My list will for example have 10 rattlings for only 70pts who will do that really well.

-A free Sergeant with 3 attacks in close combat and Leadership 7. The Sarge alone has the same amount of attacks as 9 points worth of Conscripts while hitting on 4+ instead of 5+. He can also get a Boltgun (while keeping the Chainsword) for only 1 point which while not being much does benefit alot from take aim and supporting heavier weapons (remember that Bolters wound anything up to T7 on a 5+)

- Hit on 4+ both in close combat and with their ranged weapons instead of 5+. Particularly in close combat conscripts will do nothing but put extra bodies between you and the enemy. Even with a hundred attacks you will only end up with a MEQ unit having to take 11 armour saves.
- While you need more officers than for big conscript units, Infantry squads benefit from FRFSRF and Take Aim! much more thanks to their higher BS. You can also take a vox, which means the officer won't have to be within 6" of the squad (leaving him vulnerable to getting tied up in close combat as well).

- Being able to take Special and Heavy Weapons is huge. Lascannon HWS are extremely squishy high-point value targets that will get wiped fast (even with cheaper teams thrown in, they are still only T3 models with a 5+ save even with 2 wounds) which are much safer and more reliable embedded in infantry squads. 5pt Grenade Launchers and 7pt Plasma Guns are great for those units, while cheap speedbump squads with a flamer (47 points) or flamer+ HB (55 points) make for excellent and expendable screening and charge blocking units. With a vox also much easier to order for commanders (remember that an officer needs to be within 6" of a HWS to do so) and the rest of the squad, particularly the special, benefits from Take Aim! a lot too.

- Infantry squads can throw grenades much more efficiently. While not much you probably WILL do that once the enemy is within the 6" range (particularly with the sarge if he only got his pistol) for example after a failed charge and especially in overwatch against short range charges.

- Concript overwatch might be "as good" as the overwatch of Infantry Squads, but without the option of having a flamer and it will also achieve almost nothing even against T3 hordes once you start calculating the numbers
- If you want Conscripts to do anything then you need a whole bunch of points in support characters, even moreso if you actually want them to inflict any damage

- No insane headache of having to buy, paint, deploy and move giant blobs of Conscripts that might well be nerfed once the Codex or first Chapter Approved Rules update rolls out. Math- and Theoryhammer is all nice and good until you actually have to deploy those blobs on the table and many of them won't do much with their 24" range BB guns on a 72" board if the enemy spreads out. Not to mention getting them all into close combat or rapid-fire range if they do get charged

- Rules aside, Infantry squads get you more bang for your quids and bucks and can save you a whole lot of money if you put a heavy weapon team in them (which replaces two models in the unit... which you can then use to build another heavy weapon team with a spare 60mm base or even an entire new squad if you got 8 spares) and we all know how expensive playing Guard is to begin with, it adds up quickly. Also infantry squads with all the Sarges, voxes and special weapons have much more individuality than just dozens of dudes with lasguns which makes them nicer to look at and more bearable to paint

Sure, Conscripts are good, but not necessarily superior to Infantry squads, particularly from a flexibility point of view with their cheap special and heavy weapons and much better accuracy and close combat ability (pretty bad but not complete trash like Concripts) for 1 point.

 vipoid wrote:

The main things I'm considering at the moment is:
- Is it worth giving plasma pistols to the sergeants of mid- or back-field infantry squads?
- Is it worth giving heavy bolters to the advancing/screening squads?

I would give all your 3+ to hit characters a plasma pistol before handing them out to your sarges, makes them more efficient and keeps them in the game much longer while the price stays the same. Give every Scion/Stormtrooper Sarge one though if the points allow, you are guaranteed to deploy them in range and they benefit as much from Take Aim! as all the plasma guns do. Also Hotshot-pistols are crap and not worth the point you pay for them, so plasma pistols are only 4 points as an upgrade over them.

Thinking about the HBs myself, but I think they are definitely worth the points, especially for all-comers lists. If you end up fighting other IG or Tau players the squad can still contribute besides being a teleport/infiltration denial wall. I'll include them simply for saving money as well until I got more money for another box or two of snapfit Cadians to pluck holes in units if I leave the HWTs out.

In addition, infantry squads are much better at filling out troop requirements in detachments for more command points.

And what do people think about las cannons vs missile launchers? While las cannons are superior against heavy targets, would the lesser power of missile launchers be worth for the versatility of being able to help deal with hordes?

Oh and another question, which baneblade variant do people think is the superior one, im kind of torn between the Shadowsword and the Doomhammer. On one hand, the shadowsword is extremely good at eliminating big targets, especially titanic ones since it gets +1 ballistic skill and gets to reroll to wound against such targets. On the other hand, the doom hammer is decently effective against big targets as well, and it can transport and protect your squishy heavy weapons teams.

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

I would give all your 3+ to hit characters a plasma pistol before handing them out to your sarges, makes them more efficient and keeps them in the game much longer while the price stays the same. Give every Scion/Stormtrooper Sarge one though if the points allow, you are guaranteed to deploy them in range and they benefit as much from Take Aim! as all the plasma guns do. Also Hotshot-pistols are crap and not worth the point you pay for them, so plasma pistols are only 4 points as an upgrade over them.

Thinking about the HBs myself, but I think they are definitely worth the points, especially for all-comers lists. If you end up fighting other IG or Tau players the squad can still contribute besides being a teleport/infiltration denial wall. I'll include them simply for saving money as well until I got more money for another box or two of snapfit Cadians to pluck holes in units if I leave the HWTs out.

That's great advice on both counts. Thank you very much.

 ThePie wrote:

And what do people think about las cannons vs missile launchers? While las cannons are superior against heavy targets, would the lesser power of missile launchers be worth for the versatility of being able to help deal with hordes?

I haven't made my mind up yet. My current plan is to use a 50/50 split and see which performs best.

However, I'd probably lean a bit towards the lascannon. Mostly because I already have Lasguns and FRFSRF for anti-infantry (and plasma for anti-heavy infantry), but I lack weapons that can do a lot of wounds to a single target in one shot.

Also, I think the ML's Frag mode overlaps a lot with Heavy Bolters and Mortas, whilst there isn't really anything that can stand in for Lascannons that way.

Regardless, I plan to try both and see each performs.