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I f I were to start an army around a Baneblade variant (probably Shadowsword, but eyeing up Banehammer or Stormlord), do you guys find it better to supplement with mostly Infantry, mostly Tanks, or a mix of the two?

Semi-related question - with objectives still being the way to win games and now being based on number of models in range, is it worth taking Transports for units to get them on the field or is it better to just sit back and blow things up and not move out until T4/T5?

 ThePie wrote:
Oh and another question, which baneblade variant do people think is the superior one, im kind of torn between the Shadowsword and the Doomhammer. On one hand, the shadowsword is extremely good at eliminating big targets, especially titanic ones since it gets +1 ballistic skill and gets to reroll to wound against such targets. On the other hand, the doom hammer is decently effective against big targets as well, and it can transport and protect your squishy heavy weapons teams.

The Shadowsword looks really nice but it depends on what enemies you are going to see. If infantry hordes become common then a Shadowsword is not going to be great. I'm really liking the look of a flamer Hellhammer. It is very expensive but a beast in melee combat and overwatch. No unit will want to charge a unit with 8 heavy flamers, especially if it can just sit in combat and fire like nothing is wrong. The baneblade variants are now extremely good in close combat, it may be a surprise to your opponent if you are hyper aggressive with them.

Requizen wrote:
I f I were to start an army around a Baneblade variant (probably Shadowsword, but eyeing up Banehammer or Stormlord), do you guys find it better to supplement with mostly Infantry, mostly Tanks, or a mix of the two?

Semi-related question - with objectives still being the way to win games and now being based on number of models in range, is it worth taking Transports for units to get them on the field or is it better to just sit back and blow things up and not move out until T4/T5?

I can't answer your first question because I have neither the interest nor the inclination to use super-heavies.

As to your second question, I've got two thoughts on the matter:

1) If I was going to take a transport, it would be one of the MT ones as I find the Chimera expensive and lacklustre at best.

2) I don't think not taking a transport equates to not advancing. At the moment, I'm playing IG armies with 0 vehicles in them, but I still plan to advance about half my units early on. Indeed, with orders like 'Forwards for the Emperor!' and 'Move! Move! Move!', I'd argue that infantry really don't need transports to quickly make their way up the field. And for the price of a couple of Chimera, you can probably have about 3 infantry squads - so you'll have more bodies to advance and soak up wounds. What's more, this is the edition with the fewest drawbacks to moving. Your heavy weapons used to only hit on 6s after moving, now they hit on 5s - that's literally twice the odds.

Also, don't discount stuff like Scions who can drop down into your opponent's back field to further increase your reach (without needing transports).

Transports are still a big deal if you want to try and go first. And going first is very powerful. I'm thinking of mechanizing all my infantry and characters for this reason alone. The Chimera with dual HF is no slouch in the damage department either.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Transports are still a big deal if you want to try and go first. And going first is very powerful. I'm thinking of mechanizing all my infantry and characters for this reason alone. The Chimera with dual HF is no slouch in the damage department either.

So, you take turns setting up units. If you deploy a transport, do you also implicitly deploy all of its passengers? Or do I have to say "I deploy this Chimera." "You deploy x" "I deploy this infantry squad inside the Chimera." and so on?

 daedalus wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Transports are still a big deal if you want to try and go first. And going first is very powerful. I'm thinking of mechanizing all my infantry and characters for this reason alone. The Chimera with dual HF is no slouch in the damage department either.

So, you take turns setting up units. If you deploy a transport, do you also implicitly deploy all of its passengers? Or do I have to say "I deploy this Chimera." "You deploy x" "I deploy this infantry squad inside the Chimera." and so on?

Yes, Transports in the basic rules say "When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately - declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up"

That means you can deploy like 4-8 units in a Stormlord (depending on their sizes) as a single drop.

Requizen wrote:

That means you can deploy like 4-8 units in a Stormlord (depending on their sizes) as a single drop.

That was exactly what I was thinking. Sounds like I have a potential alternative to not going last every time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, trying to find edge cases where Veterans work. . Incoming rabbit hole.

Idea 1:
Foot? Probably too squishy to make it, though if you run them like infantry it might not be too bad, but naked they're the cost of my power infantry squads.

Idea 2:
Chimeras? Adds 93 points to the unit, and it has to survive long enough for them to bail out to attack since they can't shoot out the top anymore (unless I missed something).

Thinking...
Uhh... Valkyrie Grav Chute disembarks models, stating that they must be 9" away, but it's not reinforcements, it's disembarkation. That means they can still move/advance after disembarking, right? Vets have a lot of weapons, lets see how that works:

Crazy rabbit hole idea!
Okay, how about vets (3 x PG, PP and PF) with a Priest (Eviscerator, PG) and a Commissar (PP, PF) in a Valkyrie? They can get an almost guaranteed charge turn 1, which is impossible anywhere else in guard that I can see. Shooting they get average 4.8 dead MEQ and assaulting they get average 3.5 dead MEQ. With all the plasma, PFs and Eviscerators, they have the potential to tear up characters, and with the assault, you put something in the position of not being able to shoot on its next turn because it either has to stick in melee or fall back. That's 217 points though, not counting the Valk, so it's probably not worth it though. Dropping the Priest reduces the shooting to 4.3 dead MEQ and 1.7 dead MEQ, but it drops the point cost to 147 points, which probably makes it more point efficient. Vets (and commissar) are about 24.5 points per average MEQ killed Interesting, but doesn't make its points up in one turn..

Valkyrie is 160 points with the default options, which halves the Vet efficiency, or 162 with the rocket pods (which is probably how I'd do it. I'd probably toss the lascannon on there too for funsies, so 172. That's pricey. How does it do? Well, not great against MEQ. That gets us .5 MEQ dead for the shooting. Yikes, not so good. The heavy bolters increase this to .66 dead MEQ, but probably not enough to justify the points. That's fine. Maybe it's better at hard targets. With the LC/Hellstrike, that gets us about .29 unsaved wounds on a T8 eq. Not great either for the points.

By comparison, 5 man 2x Plasma scions with a PP are 69 points. They don't require the Valk, but get 2.2 dead MEQ on average between hotshot and plasma. They also probably don't get the assault though. Let's double them to make up for the point difference: That gives us 4.4 average dead MEQ for 138 points, or 31.36 points per average MEQ killed. Well, they don't make their points up in a turn either.

So the totals there for the Valk and Vets is 319, or 66.46 per dead MEQ, and the Scions are 138, or 31.36 points per dead MEQ. That's not great for Vets, though they get to force something to not shoot for a round, and can do it turn 1. There's definitely some utility there, but if that's your only point, there could well be more cost effective ways of doing that, like 3 command squads armed with plasmas that jump out of the Valk, because then you could charge three things. Even more lulzy is 12 acolytes bailing out. Turn 1 charge up to 12 things that are horrible at close combat in the hopes of surviving long enough to deny them shooting on their turn? Sign me up.

Anyone have any thoughts on what Vets are for then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dropping the commissar actually makes the efficiency of the vets + valk go up overall. 49.4 points per average MEQ killed. Still not better than the scions, at least, point for point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as long as I'm going crazy, apparently you don't have to take full strength squads as long as you pay full price for them.

So you can put three squads of three man strong sws into a Valkyrie, along with three platoon commanders to give them orders, then rush them to 3 inches away with meltas and demo packs.

I'll have to price that when I'm not just on my phone, but Jesus I think that one wins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Better still:

2 meltas 1 demo charge
2 meltas 1 demo charge
2 meltas 1 demo charge
2 meltas
Harker

Heh I've had a similar idea with using the Valkyrie.

My first one is quite similar:
-Vets with Shotguns, 3x Meltagun, 1x Heavy Flamer + Plasma Pistol/Power Axe
-Platoon Commander + Plasma Pistol/Power Axe to give them rerolling 1's
+ either a Commissar or a Priest

to kill big monsters or enemy tanks

The Second Idea vs. horde armies was:
3x4 Command Squads with Flamethrowers. Which would be 12d6 autohits, that will get rid of a 20 man ork unit if need be.

The Valk is definitely a great place to deploy flamers and meltas from. Much better than deepstrike due to the fact that you can get in range, but you do pay for it. 2 Melta Command squads with 2 Platoon Commanders could be interesting.

Okay, so the valk with the melta/demo SWS and Harker above:

It's about 390 points (depending on options) for everything, including the Valk. But the SWS average about 18.9 damage by themselves on average to a land raider (!) if they have Harker's reroll. I think I calc'ed the probability on the rolls to hit properly there. Should come out to about 80% or so. Anyway, so that's an overkilled Land Raider on average, and you still get to fire Harker and the Valkyrie and assault with all of the above.

It's a lot of points, but I think it might be my alpha strike goto. Only way you can really stop it is by screening your vehicles. But since the occupants can move after deploying, their screen really has to be at least 3" in front of the targets otherwise you can still be within melta range, and 9" in front of the target to deny firing the meltas at all.

Only thing I might do different is mix in some plasma instead. Cheaper, and it's more universal, though that would mean probably not popping land raiders, it would still give me some good turn 1 options.

Or, you're playing against horde players, in which case you just hang back and blast with the rocket pods and use the occupants as late game objective takers, maybe tossing Harker in with the rest of your army to buff them instead.

Now to convert me a Mordian... err, "Catachan" Harker model...

I don't think those ideas will quite work because the sws requires 6 dudes. Maybe a sws, and command squad, a (company) commander and Harker?

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I don't think those ideas will quite work because the sws requires 6 dudes. Maybe a sws, and command squad, a (company) commander and Harker?

No, no. That's the hilarious thing. They look like they require six dudes. They should require six dudes. But they don't and it's the craziest thing I've ever seen!

Check Page 242, "Understrength Units".

 daedalus wrote:
Okay, so the valk with the melta/demo SWS and Harker above:

It's about 390 points (depending on options) for everything, including the Valk. But the SWS average about 18.9 damage by themselves on average to a land raider (!) if they have Harker's reroll. I think I calc'ed the probability on the rolls to hit properly there. Should come out to about 80% or so. Anyway, so that's an overkilled Land Raider on average, and you still get to fire Harker and the Valkyrie and assault with all of the above.

It's a lot of points, but I think it might be my alpha strike goto. Only way you can really stop it is by screening your vehicles. But since the occupants can move after deploying, their screen really has to be at least 3" in front of the targets otherwise you can still be within melta range, and 9" in front of the target to deny firing the meltas at all.

Only thing I might do different is mix in some plasma instead. Cheaper, and it's more universal, though that would mean probably not popping land raiders, it would still give me some good turn 1 options.

Or, you're playing against horde players, in which case you just hang back and blast with the rocket pods and use the occupants as late game objective takers, maybe tossing Harker in with the rest of your army to buff them instead.

Now to convert me a Mordian... err, "Catachan" Harker model...

I don't see how you get anywhere near 18.9 damage. The SWS can only take 2 meltas and a demo charge. They have half a chance to hit, half chance to wound, and the attacks from the demo charge also have to overcome a 6+ save. But .5 melta shots + .875 demo charge doesn't equal a dead land raider. More like 4 damage? Drop 390 points of plasma scions instead.

edit: So even if you field 2 SWS, that's still like 8 damage. You can't field 3 because you can only field one under-strength unit per type. In this particular case, you'd also be claiming you don't have 3 more guardsmen with lasguns, which is unlikely to win you any friends.

How do vet squads rate vs scions if we are going PL?

Mavnas wrote:

I don't see how you get anywhere near 18.9 damage. The SWS can only take 2 meltas and a demo charge. They have half a chance to hit, half chance to wound, and the attacks from the demo charge also have to overcome a 6+ save. But .5 melta shots + .875 demo charge doesn't equal a dead land raider. More like 4 damage? Drop 390 points of plasma scions instead.

I was assuming that, given the 9" distance from the enemy during your deploy, and you move 6" forward, you'd be well within melta range. That makes average damage around 5-6 per melta shot. I was also trying to math the reroll of a 1 from Harker into the math. I think I was speculating a 70% chance on that. Maybe that was too high? It's definitely better than 50% though.

390 points of scions is 12 plasma guns (and a whole lot more dakka on top of that). That's 24 shots, at BS3+ that's 14.6 hits, At S8, that's 7.3 saves, which is 5.3 unsaved, which is 14.6 wounds. You lost 4 gunners also, It'd get you some nasty damage, sure, but guard are cheap enough to afford to specialize, and having a portion of your army specialized to alpha strike the front half of theirs immediately is a reasonable expenditure of points.

edit: So even if you field 2 SWS, that's still like 8 damage. You can't field 3 because you can only field one under-strength unit per type.

So, I can only have one. Fair enough. That's fine, because you could still do two command squads with 4 melta and a (reduced strength) sws with 2 melta and a demo pack.

So, 10 melta at probably.. you know, lets actually do about 60% chance (just to be safe) to hit, 50% chance to wound, and 83.3% chance to bypass armor, and 2d6 wounds drop highest--which sits much closer to the 5-6 range.
10 * .6 * .5 * .833 * = 2.5 unsaved and then 2.5 * 5.5 = about 13.75

Demo pack
1 * 3.5 (average on d6) * .6 * .5 * .667 = 0.7 unsaved and then 0.7 * 2 (average on d3) = 1.4

Okay, so that's 15.15 wounds to a land raider. A bit better than the Scions, but then you can assault with these turn 1. That's not going to do anything much to slow down an assaulty army, but anything that survives getting beat on prevents the opponent from firing that thing turn one. That's something the scions won't be able to do. And it's really cheap enough that it's not like you don't have points to take the plasmascions either. The idea here is so that you don't have to spend your plasma firing at a land raider or something equally nasty, and can use them for popping characters/rhinos/xenos paper vehicles/wraithlords.

In this particular case, you'd also be claiming you don't have 3 more guardsmen with lasguns, which is unlikely to win you any friends.

Maybe. I play Mordian Iron Guard. They're difficult to get your hands on nowadays.

 daedalus wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

I don't see how you get anywhere near 18.9 damage. The SWS can only take 2 meltas and a demo charge. They have half a chance to hit, half chance to wound, and the attacks from the demo charge also have to overcome a 6+ save. But .5 melta shots + .875 demo charge doesn't equal a dead land raider. More like 4 damage? Drop 390 points of plasma scions instead.

I was assuming that, given the 9" distance from the enemy during your deploy, and you move 6" forward, you'd be well within melta range. That makes average damage around 5-6 per melta shot. I was also trying to math the reroll of a 1 from Harker into the math. I think I was speculating a 70% chance on that. Maybe that was too high? It's definitely better than 50% though.

2d6 pick highest is 4.5 average :( Rerolling 1s bumps them to 58.333%. It's 1/6th chance of 1/2 a hit :(

390 points of scions is 12 plasma guns (and a whole lot more dakka on top of that). That's 24 shots, at BS3+ that's 14.6 hits, At S8, that's 7.3 saves, which is 5.3 unsaved, which is 14.6 wounds. You lost 4 gunners also, It'd get you some nasty damage, sure, but guard are cheap enough to afford to specialize, and having a portion of your army specialized to alpha strike the front half of theirs immediately is a reasonable expenditure of points.

You can get 4 plasma guns for 64 points on the scion command squad. 390 is 6+ or better yet add a tempestor prime at 40 points for every two squads and they also reroll their 1s to hit. You could easily drop 16 guns, 2 primes for that and not worry that their transport gets shot up before they arrive. Granted, they won't really be going far afterwards, but I'd expect the enemy to shoot either squad up afterwards anyway.

So, 10 melta at probably.. you know, lets actually do about 60% chance (just to be safe) to hit, 50% chance to wound, and 83.3% chance to bypass armor, and 2d6 wounds drop highest--which sits much closer to the 5-6 range.
10 * .6 * .5 * .833 * = 2.5 unsaved and then 2.5 * 5.5 = about 13.75

13.12 (assuming no saves). 11.375 otherwise. So close.

And it's really cheap enough that it's not like you don't have points to take the plasmascions either. The idea here is so that you don't have to spend your plasma firing at a land raider or something equally nasty, and can use them for popping characters/rhinos/xenos paper vehicles/wraithlords.

A single squad of plasma scions is 64 points. 400ish points isn't cheap. If the enemy doesn't have any landraiders, you can deploy them all over the opponent's face and shoot up many targets.

A sws with 2 meltaguns and a demolitión charge is 53 points, a valkirie can transport two of them (or 2 + plus Harker with one under max strenght). The valks themself are 170 a piece, with lascannon, Harker is 50 pts, with 4 sws the total is 602 points.

That is 8 meltas not 10, with BS4+ rerolling 1 (hit 7 of 12 times) and causing each one 9/2 damage at average instead 7/2 for being at 6" or less.
So, 8 * 7/12 * 1/2 * 5/6 * 9/2 = 70/8, nearly 9 damage at average against a land raider.

The 4 demolitión charge will do:
4 * 7/2 * 7/12 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 2 = 49/12, about 4 more damage.

And we have 11 lasgun at close range
22 * 7/12 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 77/216, probably they will do nothing to a land raider, but every bit of a chance counts.

Valk is 170 pts with lasscannon and missiles, but she have to shot heavy weapons after moving, so BS5+, and a valk can't be catachan, so Harker can't do nothing for her, so she will do:
1/3 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 7/2 + 1/3 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 9/2 = 7/8 each, 7/4 the two of them, of damage at average to a land raider.

Harker himself is 50pts, and will shoot well with a good weapon:
3 * 7/9 * 1/3 * 1/2 = 7/18 at average against a land raider.

And then everybody charge, to a land raider, because catachans have balls of steel instead of brain.
23/2 of bits for the sws, and 8/3 for Harker, all with 1/6 of damage, 1/6 of passing the armor, about 4/9 of average damage, but as with the lasgun, everything count.

Total 70/8 + 49/12 + 13/36 + 7/4 + 7/18 + 4/9 = 142/9, nearly 16 damage to a land raider, impresive but. Is actually so impresive for 700 points.

8 tempestus command squads, with 4 plasmagun each, and 4 tempestor prime with command rod to give orders to every INE, and force axes just for the badass look, are 692 points.
They can deepstrike at plasma close range to 64 shots at BS3+ thanks to the orders reroling 1, so they can shoot oveegarge and take only 1 or 2 cassualties for their own guns instead about 11.
64 * 7/9 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 2 = 896/27, more than 33 average damage, two land raider, and without charge, with perfecto deep strike, without the risk of the transport being destroyed before arrive the destination, and far far more usefull against other units.

 daedalus wrote:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I don't think those ideas will quite work because the sws requires 6 dudes. Maybe a sws, and command squad, a (company) commander and Harker?

No, no. That's the hilarious thing. They look like they require six dudes. They should require six dudes. But they don't and it's the craziest thing I've ever seen!

Check Page 242, "Understrength Units".

I forgot that was even a thing. Loophole exploitation ftw, I guess.

Only one squad could be "under strenght" and only if you actually haven't the models to complete it. It hard to tell tour oponent, "sorry dude, but really really I have no more lasgun guardsmen", but even then, you can transport Harker and two sws, one without a guarda to ley Harker in.
That was 4 meltaguns, 2 demolitión charge, 5 lasguns and Harker for 316 points, for 20 more points elite scions could do twice the same, safer and better.

Lots of questions about which superheavy is best; let's wait to see the Stormhammer rules.

Compared to the other variants it has essentially two main guns, which may put it over the top of the others in terms of damage output.

In the Heresy, it was also the only Baneblade variant that could take Targeters (making it BS +1) without reducing any of its firepower.

It's primary weapon had Shred, giving it re-rolls to wound (we'll see what they do with that) and Pinning (*shrug* for 8th), and it's secondary weapon both fired two shots and was twin-linked. I know the Exterminator tank got nerfed, but it'd be hilarious to see a BS3+ stormhammer with a 4d6 battlecannon.

If I had to guess, pinning could be -1 ld or something.

 Trickstick wrote:
If I had to guess, pinning could be -1 ld or something.

Quite so. I doubt it will keep all of it's heresy options; we may just lose that in the conversion. As it stands, though, if everything is preserved, we'll end up with a superheavy with up to 8 or 9 lascannons, a primary weapon which is essentially a Baneblade cannon with Shred and Pinning but only a 7" blast (however they translate that to 8th; it's inconsistent), and a secondary weapon which is a twin-linked two-shot Stormhammer battlecannon, which in 8e might make it a 4-shot battlecannon.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
...only a 7" blast (however they translate that to 8th; it's inconsistent)...

I know. I'm still weeping over the Stormsword Cannon going from 10" blast to 1d6 shots. It is supposed to be one of the largest shells a tank can fire!

 Trickstick wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
...only a 7" blast (however they translate that to 8th; it's inconsistent)...

I know. I'm still weeping over the Stormsword Cannon going from 10" blast to 1d6 shots. It is supposed to be one of the largest shells a tank can fire!

Yeah, me too. The primary companies of my regiment are Baneblades and Stormswords, so having half the regiment nerfed so hard is a sad. But I also have one stormhammer company so I am waiting to see...

... and it's weird. Some 7" blasts became 2d6 (Hellhammer?) but some 10" blasts became 1d6 (stormsword, obviously).

I have a shadowsword that can switch to banesword or stormsword. Not hard to do as it is just a barrel swap. I'm probably going to run the shadowsword just for the fun of having a mega death beam.

 Trickstick wrote:
I have a shadowsword that can switch to banesword or stormsword. Not hard to do as it is just a barrel swap. I'm probably going to run the shadowsword just for the fun of having a mega death beam.

I like to have actual in-universe TO&Es built up for my units, so my Stormswords are staying Stormswords, since that's all the regiment has. With the Indomitus Crusade and Dark Imperium, I may add a Shadowsword Tank Destruction Company but I haven't decided; I want to see the rules for the Forge World one Stormsword first as that may improve it.

I need to go over my fluff, it's been like 6 years since I even looked at it. I think that I wrote it out as that most are of regiments, the mixed infantry/armour regiment. Rare things but they do exist.

What does everyone think of the siege variant Leman Russ's now? Demolishers seem like they can put out some serious damage now, albeit expensively.

I was thinking about running a few with lascannons and meltas, but 232 points each is a bit steep. Especially considering the -1 hit when moving (which they will be constantly).

Either that or punishers with lascannons and meltas. since they get split fire now.

The demolisher actually as a reasonable gun on it, although it is pretty expensive. I would take one with three flamers and use it very aggressively. Decent overwatch and can move around without penalty. I guess a punisher would work too. Really, I'm looking forward to running triple flamers on any russ that wants to move.

Here's a short (really short) game of ig vs sm.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/729779.page