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Medusa Siege Cannons look amazing as well.

Manticore platforms being the same price as earthshaker platforms is... interesting. Very likely to be a preferred method of deploying Manticores, 80pts vs 133, quite a deal.

Vendettas with 12 transport capacity and LRs with re-rolls to hit are also pretty sweet.

Edit: Failure to read.

The Saber Weapons Battery is now my favorite unit ever. All shall tremble before its mighty searchlight.

 ross-128 wrote:
Manticore platforms being the same price as earthshaker platforms is... interesting. Very likely to be a preferred method of deploying Manticores, 80pts vs 133, quite a deal.

Vendettas with 12 transport capacity and LRs with re-rolls to hit are also pretty sweet.

Can Manticores squadrons as platforms?

paladinknight62 wrote:
man I'm kind of disappointed with the Death Korps of Krieg rules,

The bad
their orders are just awful... and they lose the best ones which lets you re-roll 1s to hit as well as FRFSF for the ability to turn their lasguns into pistol 2

This has to be a typo but it looks like they can't take artillery Heavy carriages according to the special rules page as its not listed in the approved units. How can normal guard take them but Death Korps can't?

Grenadiers do nothing special and can only take 2 special weapons, no matter how big they are. garbage compared to Scions

marshal Venner is basically a worse creed and doesn't give you free command points

The Good
cult of sacrifice lets them ignore wounds caused by shooting during the morale phase

Mars pattern leman russes get +1 to their armor save against attacks of STR 4 or lower.

Engineer Shotguns are really good as you can overcharge them and always wound on a 2+ and do 2 damage (must be why the Aim order was taken away)

If you wanted to make a full death rider army you can, as there are Mounted Marshalls in the HQ choices

rapier laser destroyers are 1 shot this time but are STR 12 and D6 dmg but you roll a dice before you roll for dmg and on a 3-5 you do 2d6 dmg on a 6 you do 3d6 dmg!!!



Overall I'd say don't bother once again this edition to not use Death Korps of Krieg rules unless you want to do a death rider army.
Regular IG is just sooooo much better and I guess can take all the good things like the hades breaching drill and the rapier laser destroyers anyway. The death korps index feels like it was super rushed and no thought was put into it, literally they are just worst guard with super limited choices on what you can include in the army. I can't even rant about it anymore I'm so angry and sad, its killed my motivation for 8th edition.

I agree about the orders. What the hell?
It's because they are based upon the Assault Brigade which couldn't take Carriage Batteries.
Lord Castellan Creed costs more than the Death Korps Marshal, and you get 12" leadership bubble as well as a Memento Mori (basically reducing all multiple wound weapons to 1 when damaging a character with it)
They were the same before, but they are slightly cheaper per model. Instead of seeing them as a replacement for Scions, see them are heavy assault infantry like cheaper Space Marines.

I agree about the good points. The re-roll hits order was probably removed because it wasn't in the list before, although why they removed FRFSRF is still anyone's guess. The Rapier however isn't that good however. It has worse damage output that a lascannon squad but is tougher, with about 2.1 expected wounds against anything not T6 or below (2.67 against those), while a Lascannon Squad has 3.5.

I do not agree with not using the DKoK. There is absolutely nothing prevent you from using Astra Militarum units in the army as well. You could simply bring a Space Marine Captain, Death Korps Infantry Squads and Heavy Artillery Carriages in a single detachment if you wanted to. What it has done is removing the ability for Death Korps auras etc. to benefit them, and removed a lot of flavour of having Death Korps artillerymen, Combat Engineer Rapier crews and so on. But the army itself is in a much better spot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Manticore platforms being the same price as earthshaker platforms is... interesting. Very likely to be a preferred method of deploying Manticores, 80pts vs 133, quite a deal.

Vendettas with 12 transport capacity and LRs with re-rolls to hit are also pretty sweet.

Can Manticores squadrons as platforms?

You can buy 3 platforms in a single unit, they need to be set up within 6" of each other but otherwise act independently. However, they only get either Manticore Missiles (S9 AP-3 D d6, can only fire 4 missiles per battle) or Sky Eagle rockets (Heavy 1 S9 AP -3 D d6 +1 to hit vs fliers -1 vs everything else), compared to Storm Eagle missiles (2d6 S10 AP-2 D d3 can fire without LoS). I'm not too impressed with the platforms. Compared to Medusas, Earthsakers etc. they only have more range.

I guess now the big question is how earth shaker platform compare to basilisks, is the durability loss worth a 20% discount?

Griffins and quad mortars need to be dirt cheap to compare to wyverns. The reroll to wound means the s4 hits are often better than the s6 or s5.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I guess now the big question is how earth shaker platform compare to basilisks, is the durability loss worth a 20% discount?

Griffins and quad mortars need to be dirt cheap to compare to wyverns. The reroll to wound means the s4 hits are often better than the s6 or s5.

The Basilisks come up worse in a comparison I'd say. The Platforms and Carriages are cheaper for the damage output, but has -4 wounds, +1T, has a 4+ save instead of 3+, no damage table, can fire when locked in combat and cannot move (not that it's any problem). While not as dumb as in 6th and 7th with 75 pts heavy artillery and 125 pts Basilisks, the artillery batteries should probably see an increase to 100 points at least.

The Griffon is T7 W11 3+ save Heavy D6 S6 AP-1 Dd3 roll two dice, discard lowest, no LoS required and no cover bonus for 78 points.
The Heavy Mortar is T7 W6 4+ save Heavy D6 S6 Ap-1 Dd3 no LoS required, for 72 pts with 3 crew (which are mandatory).
The Heavy Quad Launcher has the same statline but Heavy 4D6 S5 AP0 D1 no LoS required, for 85pts with mandatory crew

Compared to a Wyvern for 93 pts, the Wyvern probably comes out ahead in most cases with either superior damage output or superior body.

 Aenarian wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
I guess now the big question is how earth shaker platform compare to basilisks, is the durability loss worth a 20% discount?

Griffins and quad mortars need to be dirt cheap to compare to wyverns. The reroll to wound means the s4 hits are often better than the s6 or s5.

The Basilisks come up worse in a comparison I'd say. The Platforms and Carriages are cheaper for the damage output, but has -4 wounds, +1T, has a 4+ save instead of 3+, no damage table, can fire when locked in combat and cannot move (not that it's any problem). While not as dumb as in 6th and 7th with 75 pts heavy artillery and 125 pts Basilisks, the artillery batteries should probably see an increase to 100 points at least.

The Griffon is T7 W11 3+ save Heavy D6 S6 AP-1 Dd3 roll two dice, discard lowest, no LoS required and no cover bonus for 78 points.
The Heavy Mortar is T7 W6 4+ save Heavy D6 S6 Ap-1 Dd3 no LoS required, for 72 pts with 3 crew (which are mandatory).
The Heavy Quad Launcher has the same statline but Heavy 4D6 S5 AP0 D1 no LoS required, for 85pts with mandatory crew

Compared to a Wyvern for 93 pts, the Wyvern probably comes out ahead in most cases with either superior damage output or superior body.

Given the points I concur. I hope my book arrives in the mail soon.

I heard people say tarantulas are good, but even if they are free 16 points for the heavy bolters seems steep on a bs2 platform.

+1 to hit from spotlights seems fantastic especially for a 50 block of conscripts with frfsrf orders. How cheap are they?

Are cyclops any good? I loved cyclops in 7th edition

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
I guess now the big question is how earth shaker platform compare to basilisks, is the durability loss worth a 20% discount?

Griffins and quad mortars need to be dirt cheap to compare to wyverns. The reroll to wound means the s4 hits are often better than the s6 or s5.

The Basilisks come up worse in a comparison I'd say. The Platforms and Carriages are cheaper for the damage output, but has -4 wounds, +1T, has a 4+ save instead of 3+, no damage table, can fire when locked in combat and cannot move (not that it's any problem). While not as dumb as in 6th and 7th with 75 pts heavy artillery and 125 pts Basilisks, the artillery batteries should probably see an increase to 100 points at least.

The Griffon is T7 W11 3+ save Heavy D6 S6 AP-1 Dd3 roll two dice, discard lowest, no LoS required and no cover bonus for 78 points.
The Heavy Mortar is T7 W6 4+ save Heavy D6 S6 Ap-1 Dd3 no LoS required, for 72 pts with 3 crew (which are mandatory).
The Heavy Quad Launcher has the same statline but Heavy 4D6 S5 AP0 D1 no LoS required, for 85pts with mandatory crew

Compared to a Wyvern for 93 pts, the Wyvern probably comes out ahead in most cases with either superior damage output or superior body.

Given the points I concur. I hope my book arrives in the mail soon.

I heard people say tarantulas are good, but even if they are free 16 points for the heavy bolters seems steep on a bs2 platform.

+1 to hit from spotlights seems fantastic especially for a 50 block of conscripts with frfsrf orders. How cheap are they?

Are cyclops any good? I loved cyclops in 7th edition

The Tarantulas are 24 pts each with a Twin Heavy Bolter (10 base + 14 for the weapon) or 50 with Twin Lascannon, at BS4+. They are very cost-effective and pretty tough (T5, W5, 4+), but they cannot move at all, so they can basically only serve as backline defence and area denial. They can also fire when in combat, but cannot fight at all.

20 points each for the Sabres with Defence Searchlight. While the wording is a bit weird (you select a model within 48" and LoS, but then it says when you shoot at the unit, so they probably need to fix that), they are most likely quite broken.

Cyclops are stupidly good. 10" move T6 W4 3+, at the start of any of your shooting phases if it hasn't advanced, it can detonate its charge, attacking EVERY unit within D6", at Heavy 2D6 S9 AP-2 Dd3 AUTO-HIT, one use. Then you remove it and it does not award victory points if removed in this manner. 40 points each.

 Aenarian wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
I guess now the big question is how earth shaker platform compare to basilisks, is the durability loss worth a 20% discount?

Griffins and quad mortars need to be dirt cheap to compare to wyverns. The reroll to wound means the s4 hits are often better than the s6 or s5.

The Basilisks come up worse in a comparison I'd say. The Platforms and Carriages are cheaper for the damage output, but has -4 wounds, +1T, has a 4+ save instead of 3+, no damage table, can fire when locked in combat and cannot move (not that it's any problem). While not as dumb as in 6th and 7th with 75 pts heavy artillery and 125 pts Basilisks, the artillery batteries should probably see an increase to 100 points at least.

The Griffon is T7 W11 3+ save Heavy D6 S6 AP-1 Dd3 roll two dice, discard lowest, no LoS required and no cover bonus for 78 points.
The Heavy Mortar is T7 W6 4+ save Heavy D6 S6 Ap-1 Dd3 no LoS required, for 72 pts with 3 crew (which are mandatory).
The Heavy Quad Launcher has the same statline but Heavy 4D6 S5 AP0 D1 no LoS required, for 85pts with mandatory crew

Compared to a Wyvern for 93 pts, the Wyvern probably comes out ahead in most cases with either superior damage output or superior body.

Given the points I concur. I hope my book arrives in the mail soon.

I heard people say tarantulas are good, but even if they are free 16 points for the heavy bolters seems steep on a bs2 platform.

+1 to hit from spotlights seems fantastic especially for a 50 block of conscripts with frfsrf orders. How cheap are they?

Are cyclops any good? I loved cyclops in 7th edition

The Tarantulas are 24 pts each with a Twin Heavy Bolter (10 base + 14 for the weapon) or 50 with Twin Lascannon, at BS4+. They are very cost-effective and pretty tough (T5, W5, 4+), but they cannot move at all, so they can basically only serve as backline defence and area denial. They can also fire when in combat, but cannot fight at all.

20 points each for the Sabres with Defence Searchlight. While the wording is a bit weird (you select a model within 48" and LoS, but then it says when you shoot at the unit, so they probably need to fix that), they are most likely quite broken.

Cyclops are stupidly good. 10" move T6 W4 3+, at the start of any of your shooting phases if it hasn't advanced, it can detonate its charge, attacking EVERY unit within D6", at Heavy 2D6 S9 AP-2 Dd3 AUTO-HIT, one use. Then you remove it and it does not award victory points if removed in this manner. 40 points each.

So the Cyclops only has a threat range of 11 to 16",can not detonate on an opponent's turn, and went up in points in exchange for holy gak that is a lot of damage.

I'm very happy about the cyclops. It's raw power is stupid good, but it has a short threat range and there is room for counter play. I think a smart opponent will make them a high target priority early in the game, but they will soak up a good amount of anti vehicle firepower for their points if that us the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The cyclops may also be our answer agaist elite CC armies jumping in our face. They can close the distance stupid fast and even get off turn 1 charges, but lack the dakka and time to destroy the cyclops before going all in

 schadenfreude wrote:


So the Cyclops only has a threat range of 11 to 16",can not detonate on an opponent's turn, and went up in points in exchange for holy gak that is a lot of damage.

I'm very happy about the cyclops. It's raw power is stupid good, but it has a short threat range and there is room for counter play. I think a smart opponent will make them a high target priority early in the game, but they will soak up a good amount of anti vehicle firepower for their points if that us the case.

The cyclops may also be our answer agaist elite CC armies jumping in our face. They can close the distance stupid fast and even get off turn 1 charges, but lack the dakka and time to destroy the cyclops before going all in

Well, it couldn't really move quickly previously from what I've seen (although I guess you could transport it, which would have cost more) and it had to have an operator, which is gone now. It also went from 30 to 40 pts but gained 2 wounds and a better save. It also explodes if it loses its last wound, but that is on a 3+ on D6 and only causes D3 mortal wounds to units within 6". So I would say overall it is more mobile and somewhat tougher.

In fact, since I like you, have this:

It's so hateful that it is beautiful.

Don't forget that the cyclops is one of the smallest models in the game. It will be really easy to hide them in ruins, laying traps for an advancing enemy.

Just saw that the Medusa can indirect fire. Wasn't the whole point of that thing that it couldn't?

So am I wrong or are Malcadors pointless now? I worked out the points and they are like 60ish points more than a Leman Russ for only 6 more wounds. They lack Grinding advance so are -1 to hit and can't be squadroned so take up a slot each.

 Trickstick wrote:


Just saw that the Medusa can indirect fire. Wasn't the whole point of that thing that it couldn't?

Well, it looks like it would be capable of some indirect fire. Well, in fact most armoured vehicles with a vertically traversable gun can fire indirectly, and many historical tanks have had some form of indicator for that. I'm happy it has that capability. Nevertheless, the text in Imperial Armour 1 2nd Ed states that it is used in a direct fire role.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Loopstah wrote:
So am I wrong or are Malcadors pointless now? I worked out the points and they are like 60ish points more than a Leman Russ for only 6 more wounds. They lack Grinding advance so are -1 to hit and can't be squadroned so take up a slot each.

6 wounds are still 6 wounds, and the other variants have some use. But yes, it's not really spectacular.

Honestly I got a different impression from the DKOK. I am super pumped for them. Their armywide rule makes it so that they dont need you to invest in things like commissars which helps with both slots and flexibility of movement. I think the pistol 2 order is interesting in its flexibility.

If you want to play regular guard play regular guard. DKOK will play very differently and honestly? I like it.

I've been going through the AM index from Forgeworld, and overall I'm quite pleased.

The DKoK list looks interesting, and I might finally field my Kriegers with the actual Krieg rules this edition. Lack of FRFSRF is disappointing though. And it's strange that we can't take artillery carriages or actual Combat Engineers with the Hades. The overall selection of general AM datasheets that can get the Krieg keyword is strange. For a bunch of them it doesn't matter because they don't get Krieg specific rules and you can always use any AM faction datasheet in the same detachment anyway.

No more autocannon turrets for normal Chimeras

The Leman Russ Conqueror is basically a normal LR with re-rolls for the Battle Cannon, yet it's actually 19 points cheaper.

Not being able to use the new LR variants for a Tank Commander sucks.

Talking about things that suck: this edition the Vanquisher is not redeemed by Forgeworld Stygies. The Destroyer Tank Hunter also remains thoroughly meh.

Am I reading the Thunderbolt entry correctly? It can take 4 Hellstrike missiles or 6 Skystrike missiles. As neither of these weapons mention being one use only, that means for 270 pts I'm throwing out 2 S9 AP-3 Dd6, 4 S8 AP-2 Dd6 and 8 S7 AP-1 D2 attacks per turn. The Lightning can pull off similar shenanigans.

Was looking up the Destroyer and thought it looked ok. D3 shots and tank hunter rule make it a pretty nice AT platform.

However, they screwed up the Thunderer. They forgot that you have to pay for weapons, so it is 210 points. You can get a naked demolisher for 172, the only difference being 1 less wound. Or you could stick 3 flamers on it for 223. Seems like a Thunderer would be nice at 170, as you swap orders for a wound.

I would rather have waited a month for the proof reading to be completed. The FAQ is going to be huge. If we get one I guess, ABG was never updated for 7th after all...

That's one reason I'm happy with getting the digital edition, as I might get all the edits without having to lug around printed FAQs.

Another thing I noticed is that the Rapier Crew has T4 S4 3+ save, so they're basically slightly less accurate Space Marines. The weapon itself got hit hard with nerfs, but on the other hand it's actually a choice between HWTs and Rapiers now.

So the rapier is a copy-paste then. Yay.

 Trickstick wrote:
So the rapier is a copy-paste then. Yay.

Well, it lessens the pain of losing Combat Engineer crew a little. Goddamnit, I liked the cheap and tough BS4 Twin-linked Ordnance Lascannon in the Elite slot. I can only hope for a more complete IA book in due time.

 Trickstick wrote:
Was looking up the Destroyer and thought it looked ok. D3 shots and tank hunter rule make it a pretty nice AT platform.

I would rather have waited a month for the proof reading to be completed. The FAQ is going to be huge. If we get one I guess, ABG was never updated for 7th after all...

Compare the Destroyer to the LR Annihilator. For +22 pts and -1W the latter gets 3 shots instead of D3, and the option for sponsons.

And didn't ABG get updated for 7th ed in IA1 - Second Edition?


Another interesting error I found: the Veterans accompanying the Hades are BS4+ and not BS3+ like other Veterans.

Nemo84 wrote:
And didn't ABG get updated for 7th ed in IA1 - Second Edition?

It never got updated to the new codex, so all of the points values were the old ones.

I guess you could do an ad hoc ABG with Tank Commanders and Spearhead Detachments, but it's not the same. I wonder how Beast Hunter Shells would work.

 trephines wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
The demolisher actually as a reasonable gun on it, although it is pretty expensive. I would take one with three flamers and use it very aggressively. Decent overwatch and can move around without penalty. I guess a punisher would work too. Really, I'm looking forward to running triple flamers on any russ that wants to move.

Interesting idea... Are really any other sponsons worth it at all for tanks that'll be mobile?

Depends on the type of tank? On a standard russ, heavy flamers all the way, on a tank commander maybe heavy bolters or plasma, then for Pask go for the single shot stuff? Distinguishes their roles quite significantly.

Anyone have any idea what happened to the Hades Breaching Drill?

 daedalus wrote:
Anyone have any idea what happened to the Hades Breaching Drill?

It's basically a str5 , t7, w7 drop pod with a power fist and can carry some shotgun troops. It can move around after it comes in. Gets double attacks against buildings too, and a 4++ in combat.

d6 attacks, ws3+, sv3+

Hi guys,

I would like to start and AM army but only to play in team matched play. So, I am currently looking for a competitive 500 pts list but I litterraly do not where to start (I only have the index right now).

Thanks in advance for your ideas

HeavenLord wrote:
Hi guys,

I would like to start and AM army but only to play in team matched play. So, I am currently looking for a competitive 500 pts list but I litterraly do not where to start (I only have the index right now).

Thanks in advance for your ideas

What draws you to Guard? There are so many choices that it may help to narrow things down. Unless you just want to know what will be best. I guess a 500pt Scion army would be very good. A few squads mixed in with Taurox primes for fire support.

Also, I guess Scions aren't really an AM army, if you were set on that. They are sort of an offshoot.