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 daedalus wrote:
I presume you're not deep striking every Scion squad? You have a few too many for that.

Well, 4 can start in the Chimeras plus 2 of the Primes, which I think would give me enough on the field to start the remainder in reserve. However, I was actually only planning to DS the 3 Command Squads and one of the Primes - the rest can footslog.

 daedalus wrote:
Maybe drop the couple that you're not DSing (assuming you don't have another purpose for them) and pick up another HWS (and your meltas) or something like that?

Well, as I said, I was actually planning to start some of them on the field. Still, I'll play around with my list and see if I want to replace any of them as you suggest.

Out of interest, do you think it would be worth trying to find the points for one or both of Celestine's guards?

 daedalus wrote:
The only weak point I see here is that you don't really leave enough stuff on the table to soak damage from first turn shooting. Those sentinels won't last long on their own, and the chimeras are going to get the antitank pretty quickly.

Yeah, that is a real concern.

Honestly, the reason I'm playing this list is that I like play Infantry-IG, but moving that many models is a pain. Hence, I thought I'd have a go at fielding a more elite army (and with their promotion to troops, Scions seemed like the obvious choice). I also wanted to use St. Celestine.

Do you think there would be a better way of playing an elite IG army (which still focuses on infantry over mech), but which would be able to survive the first turn of enemy shooting?

 vipoid wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
I presume you're not deep striking every Scion squad? You have a few too many for that.

Well, 4 can start in the Chimeras plus 2 of the Primes, which I think would give me enough on the field to start the remainder in reserve. However, I was actually only planning to DS the 3 Command Squads and one of the Primes - the rest can footslog.

 daedalus wrote:
Maybe drop the couple that you're not DSing (assuming you don't have another purpose for them) and pick up another HWS (and your meltas) or something like that?

Well, as I said, I was actually planning to start some of them on the field. Still, I'll play around with my list and see if I want to replace any of them as you suggest.

Out of interest, do you think it would be worth trying to find the points for one or both of Celestine's guards?

 daedalus wrote:
The only weak point I see here is that you don't really leave enough stuff on the table to soak damage from first turn shooting. Those sentinels won't last long on their own, and the chimeras are going to get the antitank pretty quickly.

Yeah, that is a real concern.

Honestly, the reason I'm playing this list is that I like play Infantry-IG, but moving that many models is a pain. Hence, I thought I'd have a go at fielding a more elite army (and with their promotion to troops, Scions seemed like the obvious choice). I also wanted to use St. Celestine.

Do you think there would be a better way of playing an elite IG army (which still focuses on infantry over mech), but which would be able to survive the first turn of enemy shooting?

If your not gonna deep strike any scions a command squad does the same thing but cheaper. Even more so if they are in a vehicle.

I haven't looked at Celestine's guards yet, so I can't really comment there. They would help you get a bit more out of the acts of faith though.

You could help survivability (for one squad anyway) by picking up an Astropath and casting that power that improves saving throw by 1. It's less effective on MSU, but it might help a squad weather the storm if it got too close to something nasty.

 vipoid wrote:
Out of interest, do you think it would be worth trying to find the points for one or both of Celestine's guards?

The difference between zero and one is way bigger than the difference between one and two, in my limited experience. Finding an extra 50 points unlocks a big part of what makes Celestine awesome, the ability to shift wounds to someone who can die and resurrect without actually risking Celestine's Miraculous Intervention roll... although it is an easy one to make, especially if you save a CP.

I'd go by game size: by herself at 1000, with one buddy at 1500, and with both at 2000. After a few games, you may slide the scale up or down depending on how awesome you find her to be (or how irritating your opponents find her to be, and how much you care about how they feel).

You really shouldn't take Celestine without both her bodyguards. Once you start taking wounds on her you need to continue to allocate wounds on her for subsequent failed saves, regardless of whether you revived the gemini.

Basically, you want to create a situation where you're constantly maintaining your two-two wound friends and stave off taking wounds on Celestine for as long as possible.

To that end, you should take another SoB unit with Celestine in order to make use of her Saintly Blessing ability and confuse target priority.

I've not run celestine yet, but I think that either 0 or 1 bodyguards is probably best. For 150pts she has a high damage output and is already hard to kill. If she's in the centre of an AM horde she should be hard to target, then can move 24 inches and assault in one turn! Then even if she does die, 35/36 of the time she should come straight back (with a CP). In all honesty I'd probably keep her cheap and just get another 100pts of other AM.

 MacPhail wrote:

The difference between zero and one is way bigger than the difference between one and two, in my limited experience. Finding an extra 50 points unlocks a big part of what makes Celestine awesome, the ability to shift wounds to someone who can die and resurrect without actually risking Celestine's Miraculous Intervention roll... although it is an easy one to make, especially if you save a CP.

I'd go by game size: by herself at 1000, with one buddy at 1500, and with both at 2000. After a few games, you may slide the scale up or down depending on how awesome you find her to be (or how irritating your opponents find her to be, and how much you care about how they feel).

 DoomMouse wrote:
I've not run celestine yet, but I think that either 0 or 1 bodyguards is probably best. For 150pts she has a high damage output and is already hard to kill. If she's in the centre of an AM horde she should be hard to target, then can move 24 inches and assault in one turn! Then even if she does die, 35/36 of the time she should come straight back (with a CP). In all honesty I'd probably keep her cheap and just get another 100pts of other AM.

Does it matter that I tend to use Celestine defensively (for her aura and as a counter-charge unit)? So, for the first few turns at least, she's generally not exposed to any enemy fire. I ask just because spending 1/6 of my points on her and her guard makes me uncomfortable. It's basically the opposite of the strategy I usually employ with IG - wherein my army has no core units (or if it does, they're expendable in the grand scheme of things).

However, I've only played a few games with her so far (1 with her bodyguard, two without), so I'm open hearing advice from more experienced players with her.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
To that end, you should take another SoB unit with Celestine in order to make use of her Saintly Blessing ability and confuse target priority.

Is there a particular unit you'd recommend?


EDIT:

 DoomMouse wrote:
I've not run celestine yet, but I think that either 0 or 1 bodyguards is probably best. For 150pts she has a high damage output and is already hard to kill. If she's in the centre of an AM horde she should be hard to target, then can move 24 inches and assault in one turn! Then even if she does die, 35/36 of the time she should come straight back (with a CP). In all honesty I'd probably keep her cheap and just get another 100pts of other AM.

Yeah, that's what I'd been leaning towards so far. I know she's good, but 250pts is still an awful lot - especially when her bodyguards add very little in the way of actual damage.

 DoomMouse wrote:
I've not run celestine yet, but I think that either 0 or 1 bodyguards is probably best. For 150pts she has a high damage output and is already hard to kill. If she's in the centre of an AM horde she should be hard to target, then can move 24 inches and assault in one turn! Then even if she does die, 35/36 of the time she should come straight back (with a CP). In all honesty I'd probably keep her cheap and just get another 100pts of other AM.

I run Celestine with both her Geminae. If she's alone, she absolutely needs the protection because otherwise she won't last through the second turn. Also, you'd be wasting the Healing Tears ability, and each Gemini is pretty decent in their own right.


As far as bringing her as a single unit for the Guard goes, I suspect she'd just end up dead fast. The Guard can't keep up with her. Even with an escorting unit of Seraphim, she won't last long if she's out alone on the enemy table half, and 150/250/400 is an expensive price to pay for a distraction unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:
To that end, you should take another SoB unit with Celestine in order to make use of her Saintly Blessing ability and confuse target priority.

Is there a particular unit you'd recommend?

Seraphim. I run 10. I'm debating between inferno pistol or hand flamer right now, because GW reduced hand flamers ability.

I agree that seraphim are probably the best choice to join her. Being able to fire pistols into their combat can help them pull their weight a bit, but you'll need some practice to figure out which units you'll want to charge with them first or Celestine first.

I think the concearn regarding the hand flamers is a bit of nerf-shock. Them reducing it to D3 shots instead of D6 is a pretty big blow, but you're still putting out two of them per seraphim. At 12 points for the hand flamers vs 24 for the inferno pistols the latter feels like an equally viable (but differently optimized) choice now.

Shame they don't actually sell seraphim with inferno pistols.

What are people's thoughts on Rough Riders? At first I wasn't too interested, their flanking ability means they can't move when they arrive. But then I started thinking about using them as just a straight up melee unit.

Their speed and hunting lances seems like they could fulfill the niche at a discount to ogryns, since you don't need a transport. Their flanking seems unlikely to be useful, since you won't be able to move, and you only have a 25% chance to get a charge off. But could potentially snack an objective or ambush an enemy's artillery.

5 of them is only 50 points. Or you can throw two plasma guns on them for 64.

I think I might convert up a few and give them a try.

mmimzie wrote:
If your not gonna deep strike any scions a command squad does the same thing but cheaper. Even more so if they are in a vehicle.

Except that Command Squads aren't troops.

And, you know, I have to take a Company/Platoon Commander for each one I want to bring.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I run Celestine with both her Geminae. If she's alone, she absolutely needs the protection because otherwise she won't last through the second turn. Also, you'd be wasting the Healing Tears ability, and each Gemini is pretty decent in their own right.

Well, in the games I used her without her guard, she lasted to the second turn both times. The only time I've lost her was when I took her with both of her guard.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

As far as bringing her as a single unit for the Guard goes, I suspect she'd just end up dead fast. The Guard can't keep up with her. Even with an escorting unit of Seraphim, she won't last long if she's out alone on the enemy table half, and 150/250/400 is an expensive price to pay for a distraction unit.

As I said though, I don't use her like that. At least early on, she stays behind my lines to provide her aura and to be a counter-charge unit.

 argonak wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Rough Riders? At first I wasn't too interested, their flanking ability means they can't move when they arrive. But then I started thinking about using them as just a straight up melee unit.

Their speed and hunting lances seems like they could fulfill the niche at a discount to ogryns, since you don't need a transport. Their flanking seems unlikely to be useful, since you won't be able to move, and you only have a 25% chance to get a charge off. But could potentially snack an objective or ambush an enemy's artillery.

5 of them is only 50 points. Or you can throw two plasma guns on them for 64.

I think I might convert up a few and give them a try.

I think that rough riders may finally be usable in this edition. I'm with you on the flanking, not sure how well that is going to work for them but at 50 points a squad of 5 without any extra equipment that hide behind your lines will return their points cost handily against armies that charge in against your line. With all of the additional ways to get close to your opponent in 8th having a unit that can reliably reach most parts of your line and charge in to lay down some serious hurt for 50 points seems worth it to me.

 argonak wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Rough Riders? At first I wasn't too interested, their flanking ability means they can't move when they arrive. But then I started thinking about using them as just a straight up melee unit.

Their speed and hunting lances seems like they could fulfill the niche at a discount to ogryns, since you don't need a transport. Their flanking seems unlikely to be useful, since you won't be able to move, and you only have a 25% chance to get a charge off. But could potentially snack an objective or ambush an enemy's artillery.

5 of them is only 50 points. Or you can throw two plasma guns on them for 64.

I think I might convert up a few and give them a try.

They are great, I would use them to bully weak backfield units via outflank and a command re-roll to try and make the 9" charge, or as a counter charge unit that hides out of LoS behind my own lines. They don't do well vs real melee units, so treat them as what they are, light cavalry. If you want a straight up shock assault cavalry unit run them as Death Riders from the DKoK list and charge right down the middle with some armored vehicles.

edit: I just saw you didn't think outflank was useful but Rough Riders are one of the only units in the Codex that can do this (Scions being the other via deepstrike). Don't underestimate guaranteed line breaker up to turn 3!

 vonjankmon wrote:
I think that rough riders may finally be usable in this edition. I'm with you on the flanking, not sure how well that is going to work for them but at 50 points a squad of 5 without any extra equipment that hide behind your lines will return their points cost handily against armies that charge in against your line. With all of the additional ways to get close to your opponent in 8th having a unit that can reliably reach most parts of your line and charge in to lay down some serious hurt for 50 points seems worth it to me.

My thoughts on using Rough Riders as flankers is to bring them in to position them for counter charges rather than to position them for immediate charges.

I.e. if I drop a bunch of Scions and my enemy is likely to try to kill them in melee rather than shoot them off the board, having the cavalry show up nearby can be useful. Similarly, if something is positioned to charge me somewhere, positioning the cavalry to hit them back seems a good use of flanking.

Basically I look at the Rough Riders' flanking ability as a way reinforce a particular point of my line and to make my opponent potentially reconsider specific moves and charges, rather than an offensive ability (which the Scion's deep strike drop and blast is).

 vipoid wrote:

CaptainO wrote:

In order for the MT Command Squad to get FRFSRF they would need to be given the order by a Tempestor Prime (who you'd probably deep strike in with them anyway) rather than a Company Commander due to the <Regiment> rule

I don't understand how that relates to anything I wrote. Why would you even need FRFSRF with a command squad? Surely they'd all have special weapons anyway.

CaptainO wrote:

To get the most bang from your buck it becomes a three part unit

1) Tempestor Prime with command rod (and two orders)
2) MT Command Squad with 4 Plasma guns
3) Scion squad of 5, 2 with plasma (Or squad of 10, 4 with Plasma guns)

24 (or 32) plasma gun shots hitting on 3+ for 166 points (or 228)

To be honest I'd go for the scion squad of 5 and save the points for another one of these (match play legal) 3 part units.

I'd probably take a plasma pistol on the Scion sergeant.

Regardless, do you think the Prime is worth it? If you drop him and just have 2 Scion squads, then you lose some plasma shots but gain enough points for a HWS with Heavy Bolters.

Damn I misread FRFSRF! I thought it granted all rapid fire weapons rapid fire 2 not just the flashlights. This changes everything.

After being schooled I can concede that maybe the Prime is no longer the be all and end all.

Rough riders seem to be pretty similar to scions to me if you arm each 5 man squad with 2 plasma guns.

Scions advantages: ability to deep strike anywhere (not on board edges), better BS, better ranged damage (hotshots), can take orders, 4+ save, slightly better LD

Riders advantages: 2 wounds (so higher durability), faster movement, much higher melee damage output, 4pts cheaper than similar scion unit.

I think they both look pretty useful to be honest. Looking forward to using my outflanking plasma-riders soon!

Bear with me here.

I'm looking at running 6 x catachan Infantry squads of 10, Three lines of two squads 3" gap down the middle, 1" gap between each model in their respective unit/line and a 3" gap between each line. Then position Harker, Straken, a priest and a commisar at the back of the center but still within 6" of all 6 of the units. Finally a Commanding officer on both the far left and right of this "blob" (but within 6" of their three nearest squads)

Each Infantry squad model then benefits from re-roll 1s to hit in shooting (Harker) +2 attacks in close combat (Straken and the priest) a leadership of 8 (commisar) and only ever loses one extra model due to failed moral (the summary execution rule). Thats even before the six available orders are issued (2 for stracken, 4 for the two commanding officers almost certainly FRFSRF). Also Harker, Straken, a priest and a commisar cannot be targeted because there will be closer units to the enemy.

My question is, will that 3" gap between the lines guarantee that after the first line is invariably assaulted, the enemy cannot consolidate into the next line?

This would allow the first rank to disengage (if its still alive) in my next go and use "get back in the fight" to get off another round of shooting, while the second and third lines open fire with FRFSRF(Hell with 3 attacks the second line might even charge in after)

If the 3" gap between each line is sufficient you could also just move each line back keeping the gaps allowing for this tactic to continue indefinitely.

Those of you with a keen eye will notice with the above I've filled 3 HQ, 3 Elite and 6 Troop slots. Just 3 FA and 3 Heavy support away from a Brigade. I've compiled a list that contains the above into a brigade AND a spearhead detachment (containing 3 Lemann Russes)for 1500 on the head if anyone is interested in seeing it.

It depends on how wide your front is. That 3" consolidate to the closest enemy can be brutal. I also think some units like Hormagaunts can pile in or consolidate further. I suggest just keeping your heavy weapons back a bit further, as the situation develops don't be afraid to maneuver units around. You can move your lasgun dudes backward and keep the heavy weapons stationary, etc.

Additionally, I have played a lot of games and initially tried BDEs. But honestly, 3 BNs are far superior, in my opinion. Less taxes, more slot options. I think you should consider it.

All 6 Infantry squads are lasgun only. The two squads with 1" between them and 3 " in the middle would cover a front of 41" (19 + 19 + 3). Lets assume that combined with the rest of my force and the rule that units cannot deep strike within 9" I'd be able to ensure (to the best of my ability) the en won't be able to attack this unit from the side.

I just want to confirm that since each model base is 1" (at least) then if there is a 3" gap between each line the assaulting unit will not be able to consolidate into the next line (forgetting hormagaunts for now)

If not then will 4" gap guarantee it.

As I said with the mentioned HQ, Elites and Troops I'm already on my way to a BDE. 3 BNs would require 3 extra HQs and 3 extra troops. Taking Harker, a priest and a commisar seems like a no brainer with a large amount of infantry.

So, opinions please: on a Gryphonne Chimera, would you pick a Storm Bolter, a Heavy Stubber, or just not bother?

Colonel Cross wrote:
It depends on how wide your front is. That 3" consolidate to the closest enemy can be brutal. I also think some units like Hormagaunts can pile in or consolidate further. I suggest just keeping your heavy weapons back a bit further, as the situation develops don't be afraid to maneuver units around. You can move your lasgun dudes backward and keep the heavy weapons stationary, etc.

Additionally, I have played a lot of games and initially tried BDEs. But honestly, 3 BNs are far superior, in my opinion. Less taxes, more slot options. I think you should consider it.

Reference Hormagaunts, you are correct they can consolidate/pile in 6" with "bounding leap". They are however the only ones I can see on the nids list. As This just means they would be the priority to kill before the nids hit my lines. Have you heard of any other units that can do the same (help create a "if you see these shoot em first list")

I'm not aware of any other units with larger pile in or consolidate moves. I would say your 3" spacing would be fine for most cases and in most turns. Just be aware that enemy units must be within only 1" to pull your other squads in. So as long as you're reacting to your opponent and pulling units back as your lines are hit you should be fine. Flying cc units or units like Khorne Berzerkers who attack twice should probably be priorities as they can create a deeper threat than other cc units. I'd also consider tossing some flamers in if those squads are only intending to be a first wave speed bump. Always remember to toss a Frag grenade with your SGTs too, since their las pistol doesn't really benefit from FRFSRF.

 Yodhrin wrote:
So, opinions please: on a Gryphonne Chimera, would you pick a Storm Bolter, a Heavy Stubber, or just not bother?

I'd throw on Storm Bolters if you have a bit of spare points. It's not uncommon to end up with 1996/2000 once you have everything you actually want. I'd probably not bother otherwise, I think it would be better to grab another Lasgun or two that can benefit from orders and actually move around and shoot at full effectiveness. Hard to say, though. Chimeras are so vastly different than previous editions that I'm finding them difficult to evaluate.

As a question, what do you guys think of Veterans vs Infantry Squads?

Would a Veteran-based infantry army work, using Vanguard detachments instead of Battalions or Brigades? You'd have fewer CPs (and probably fewer models, too), but they'd have better BS and 3 times as many special weapons.

Any thoughts?

I just use eight infantry squads and no veterans. I don't even use HWTs or special weapons in the squads. I have two commissars and three commanders to lead those squads. They kill some enemy with their flashlights and the orders are very useful, especially Get Back in the Fight and FRFSRF. My real killers though are DS Scions, artillery, a pair of Hellhounds, and KC Pask. The infantry just has to keep the enemy away from my killers and also disrupt the enemy's attack plan.

 JB wrote:
I just use eight infantry squads and no veterans. I don't even use HWTs or special weapons in the squads. I have two commissars and three commanders to lead those squads. They kill some enemy with their flashlights and the orders are very useful, especially Get Back in the Fight and FRFSRF. My real killers though are DS Scions, artillery, a pair of Hellhounds, and KC Pask. The infantry just has to keep the enemy away from my killers and also disrupt the enemy's attack plan.

I do something similar, except I use four with plasmas. Almost the exact same tactic though. Worked really well against GK. Hard to take out tanks when you have to waste a round clearing out their ablative armor first.

 JB wrote:
My real killers though are DS Scions, artillery, a pair of Hellhounds, and KC Pask.

KC Pask?

 vipoid wrote:

 JB wrote:
My real killers though are DS Scions, artillery, a pair of Hellhounds, and KC Pask.

KC Pask?

Knight Commander Pask. Cadian hero tank.

For 45 points more than a basic leman russ you get 2+ BS and two orders per turn (one of which he can use on himself, which is likely an oversight but very clearly allowed RAW)

Ah. Which tank do you put him in?

 DoomMouse wrote:
Rough riders seem to be pretty similar to scions to me if you arm each 5 man squad with 2 plasma guns.

Scions advantages: ability to deep strike anywhere (not on board edges), better BS, better ranged damage (hotshots), can take orders, 4+ save, slightly better LD

Riders advantages: 2 wounds (so higher durability), faster movement, much higher melee damage output, 4pts cheaper than similar scion unit.

I think they both look pretty useful to be honest. Looking forward to using my outflanking plasma-riders soon!

I would add that if your taking a brigade you need something in your FA slots and their arn't a lot if good options