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2017/07/09 18:33:28
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Is it better to run them either as medium range anti infantry (with gattling cannon and hot-shot volley guns), or as long range fire support (missile launcher or battle cannon, with autocannons).
While the anti infantry version is cheaper, i think the long range version might be more survivable, while still providing good value (plus they don't have to move so they don't take movement penalty).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/09 20:15:20
2017/07/09 21:16:02
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Pro for Wyvern:
- Way cheaper to buy with real money.
- Easier to hide on the battlefield.
Going to dispute these two points. You should have plenty of mortars lying around from your normal heavy weapons teams so really all you need are 65mm bases and crews. Even buying full crews from bitz sellers for mine it came to about even with the retail cost of a Hydra.
As for the second, I had a revelation in the shower after losing a game partially because the mortars were taking up valuable los blocking space and my warlord (Pask) got sniped turn one because I didn't have anywhere safe to put him. That is that mortars could fire at targets from a sealed box if they were allowed to deploy inside of one. I now prioritize placing them inside buildings, typically in the corners, leaving the rest of my deployment zone a lot roomier than it used to be.
2017/07/10 01:17:08
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
So its pretty aggressive and fits perfect into my playstyle,
What do you think about them? Would you take a other (better?) unit comp.?
I'll just take about -500 points for dkok, maybe you have netter ideas for some "dkok-bombs"
Looks mean! I think it would be a great compliment to a standard guard force. One question though, why the command squad death riders instead of the standard ones?
5k Imperial Guard
2k Ad Mech
2017/07/10 01:20:56
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
So I've been looking and can't find anyone anywhere selling it. Does anyone know where I can pick up a sabre defense platform with searchlight or a decent equivilant. I'd prefer a FW varient, but oop model and all. You can pm me so not to further derail.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/10 01:21:40
2017/07/10 01:45:02
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
I have been thinking about how to use my models in the new edition and how to satisfy my inner Dorn at the same time and I've come up with an idea I want to pass by you guys to see if it'll be even close to effective before I commit to it;
3 Tarantulas (Heavy Bolters)
2 Sabre Platforms (Autocannons)
3 Defence Emplacements
3 SWS w/ max plasma (in the defence emplacements)
1 Void Shield Generator
Together it's a firebase. I'd set it up at chokepoints or as far forward as possible in order to apply pressure and hold the enemy back from my artillery etc.
I have been debating the effectiveness of having the SWS inside Defence Emplacements inside a VSG bubble. I could just rely on the 5++ BUT if the enemy uses AP- weaponry, the 4+ from the Defence Emplacements comes into its own.
I've also been debating using it so aggressively because if the enemy ends up taking it - I've just given them defence emplacements and a VSG close to my deployment or in a critical area --- I'm just hoping that the effort spent to take it is disproportionate to the benefits they get from it.
So its pretty aggressive and fits perfect into my playstyle,
What do you think about them? Would you take a other (better?) unit comp.?
I'll just take about -500 points for dkok, maybe you have netter ideas for some "dkok-bombs"
Looks mean! I think it would be a great compliment to a standard guard force. One question though, why the command squad death riders instead of the standard ones?
Cause they can outflank and give this abillity up to 5 other "Deathriders" (the comander in my case)
/edit: i think im gonna scratchbuild a DKOK-Yarick and put him into the chimera together with the engineers, and drop out the whole Deathriders. Dont know of they worth the points...or maybe 10 "normal" Deathriders, without outflank for a beta strike...?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/10 03:16:42
2017/07/10 04:12:17
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Going to dispute these two points. You should have plenty of mortars lying around from your normal heavy weapons teams so really all you need are 65mm bases and crews. Even buying full crews from bitz sellers for mine it came to about even with the retail cost of a Hydra.
That's quite alot of work to end up "about even" in price.
You also assume that everyone has plenty of heavy weapon team bitz lying around.
5500 pts 6500 pts 7000 pts 9000 pts 13.000 pts
2017/07/10 04:20:03
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Is it better to run them either as medium range anti infantry (with gattling cannon and hot-shot volley guns), or as long range fire support (missile launcher or battle cannon, with autocannons).
While the anti infantry version is cheaper, i think the long range version might be more survivable, while still providing good value (plus they don't have to move so they don't take movement penalty).
The former. For not many more points, the manticore or even earthshaker batteries are better long range fire support.
2017/07/10 04:57:13
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
vipoid wrote: I've got a question for you guys (based off something that came up in a different thead):
If plasmaguns ceased to exist, would you start taking Grenade Launchers instead?
You could take all the special weapons we have but grenade launchers out of the codex and I still probably wouldn't bring the dumb things, I'd just spam heavy weapons instead. Grenade Launchers are awful.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
2017/07/10 06:47:20
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
vipoid wrote: I've got a question for you guys (based off something that came up in a different thead):
If plasmaguns ceased to exist, would you start taking Grenade Launchers instead?
You could take all the special weapons we have but grenade launchers out of the codex and I still probably wouldn't bring the dumb things, I'd just spam heavy weapons instead. Grenade Launchers are awful.
What conceptual change could make grenade launchers worth bringing?
Right now its 5 points, plus the trooper, so 9 points total. For 8 points we can bring two troopers with rapid fire 1 Lasguns which have the same range and can receive (and let's be honest, will) FRFSRF. That gives minimum 4 shots, 8 at short range. That completely eclipses the frag grenade aspect, which has an average of 3.5 hits. The assault aspect of a grenade launcher seems completely worthless. I can't see any purpose to using that feature.
So really, the most grenade launchers should cost is 3 points, if we're only considering the frag option. And given their randomness, I'd say 2 points might not be unreasonable. The Krak option is honestly nothing to write home about, I think that ought to be free.
So if Grenade launchers were 2 points, would I include them? Yeah at that point I probably would, if I didn't have the spare points for anything better. What do you think?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/10 06:47:45
2017/07/10 07:59:30
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Imperial_Wolf wrote: How would you guys run a unit of three armored sentinels? Three las cannons?
Well, I wouldn't run them as a unit - I'd run them separately. That aside, yeah, I'd use Lascannons. Maybe add some Hunter Killers if I have any spare points (aiming to fire them ASAP). For the most part, I'd aim to have them start in decent locations and remain stationary for as long as its practical for them to do so.
What conceptual change could make grenade launchers worth bringing?
Right now its 5 points, plus the trooper, so 9 points total. For 8 points we can bring two troopers with rapid fire 1 Lasguns which have the same range and can receive (and let's be honest, will) FRFSRF. That gives minimum 4 shots, 8 at short range. That completely eclipses the frag grenade aspect, which has an average of 3.5 hits. The assault aspect of a grenade launcher seems completely worthless. I can't see any purpose to using that feature.
So really, the most grenade launchers should cost is 3 points, if we're only considering the frag option. And given their randomness, I'd say 2 points might not be unreasonable. The Krak option is honestly nothing to write home about, I think that ought to be free.
So if Grenade launchers were 2 points, would I include them? Yeah at that point I probably would, if I didn't have the spare points for anything better. What do you think?
I think that's the wrong direction. I'd much rather pay more and have a weapon that is actually worth a damn than pay a tiny price for a weapon that barely outclasses a lasgun. Otherwise, I'm just going to ignore the option entirely and take a more meaningful special weapon.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/07/10 08:42:13
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
vipoid wrote: I've got a question for you guys (based off something that came up in a different thead):
If plasmaguns ceased to exist, would you start taking Grenade Launchers instead?
You could take all the special weapons we have but grenade launchers out of the codex and I still probably wouldn't bring the dumb things, I'd just spam heavy weapons instead. Grenade Launchers are awful.
What conceptual change could make grenade launchers worth bringing?
Right now its 5 points, plus the trooper, so 9 points total. For 8 points we can bring two troopers with rapid fire 1 Lasguns which have the same range and can receive (and let's be honest, will) FRFSRF. That gives minimum 4 shots, 8 at short range. That completely eclipses the frag grenade aspect, which has an average of 3.5 hits. The assault aspect of a grenade launcher seems completely worthless. I can't see any purpose to using that feature.
So really, the most grenade launchers should cost is 3 points, if we're only considering the frag option. And given their randomness, I'd say 2 points might not be unreasonable. The Krak option is honestly nothing to write home about, I think that ought to be free.
So if Grenade launchers were 2 points, would I include them? Yeah at that point I probably would, if I didn't have the spare points for anything better. What do you think?
Eh, I mean at that point it's not terrible, but now it's directly competing with the sniper rifle, which, when fielded in the numbers IG is capable of, is actually a pretty viable choice if you're tight on points but don't want the special weapon slot to go to waste
Vipoid wrote:
I think that's the wrong direction. I'd much rather pay more and have a weapon that is actually worth a damn than pay a tiny price for a weapon that barely outclasses a lasgun. Otherwise, I'm just going to ignore the option entirely and take a more meaningful special weapon.
This guy gets it.
If we really wanted Grenade Launchers to become a serious choice again, they need to fill some sort of niche or purpose. Just being cheap doesn't really do them any favors when literally every possible role they have is done by something else, and usually at the same cost or cheaper or just so much better that it doesn't even warrant a comparison. IG is never hurting for S3 shooting, even if a single command squad can theoretically spit out 24 S3 shots in a single phase, I'd just rather bring a conscript or infantry squad instead, who have more numbers, better board control, and only take up a troops slot. S6 is just in a really weird spot this edition and with a random damage profile can be quite hit and miss.
This is getting into proposed rules territory and would never ever happen, but in order to get me to take grenade launchers with their attack profile the way it is they really need some sort of utilitarian or toolbox rounds, such as say a flare round that helps with night fighting, or a smoke round that can be used to disrupt an enemy unit's aim. It would make the grenade launcher unique in that compared to most other weapons it's more of a tool and would have a variety of uses depending on the matchup. However, this adds more special rules to the game when the whole point of 8th is to try and dial these back.
As it sits I just don't think you'll ever see them show up in any serious list. Most of the time I've ever seen one fielded is either a new IG player who doesn't have anything better to run in his army, and even then they're normally proxies. If they show up in an older IG player's list, 99/100 times it's because he still has the models from when he started and just wants to get them out of the case for a game.
Think about it. Sure, you can make Grenade Launchers 2pts a piece all day long, but I still have to pay 40pts base for the infantry squad carrying it. If I've already set down 40pts for the squad, odds are I'm willing to pay the 5-10pts extra it takes to get a proper special weapon. The old saying "you get what you pay for" immediately springs to mind.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
2017/07/10 10:57:39
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Which one would you pick and why? (Taking both rules or aesthetics into account.)
I'm having trouble deciding ...
They are about the same amount of points;
Macharius Heavy Tank with it's Battle Cannon, 2 Heavy Flamers, Heavy Stubber and Twin Heavy Stubber kicks in at 390 pts.
Valdor Tank Hunter with it's Neutron Laser, Heavy Flamer and 2 Heavy Stubbers kicks in at 395 pts.
Macharius Pro's:
- +2 Wounds.
- More secondary weapons (2 Heavy Flamers instead of 1, and 1 more Heavy Stubber.)
- Superior against smaller stuff due to higher rate of fire.
Valdor Pro's:
- £35 cheaper.
- Superior against vehicles.
- A vehicle damaged but not destroyed will be slightly gimped.
Jury is out:
- Valdor's Unstable Reactor. This thing is hilarious. The problem is that the Valdor is more likely to be in the middle of your own army when it explodes.
- They're surprisingly similar against monsters and the like, with the Macharius pulling ahead if there are invuln's involved.
Which one would you pick and why?
I'm having trouble deciding ...
Are you asking us to decide based on rules or aesthetics?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/07/10 11:41:18
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
That wasn't the question, altough it would've been a good answer if not for the fact that I already own a Baneblade-variant (Stormlord) and I don't really want another one.
I've updated the post with some pro's/con's and some mathhammer.
Well, I've no experience whatsoever with these tanks or their weapons, so I can't really comment on which has the best rules.
But from a purely aesthetic point of view, I think the Valdor Tank Hunter has the more interesting design.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/07/10 12:46:44
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
As much as I enjoy how powerful Imperial Guard is at the moment, I feel that it isn't a fun army to fight against anymore.
Fighting a shooty army already isn't fun for a more melee-focused army, but our current firepower just turns it into a one-sided slaughterhouse.
No-one wants to see his beloved Khorne Beserkers in a Rhino first get obliterated by Basilisks and then shot to pieces by infantry squads.
No-one wants their favourite character (often representing the player himself or the reason they play said army) get sniped turn one by two Vindicare Assassins.
I mean, even with taking 'mediocre' units like grenade/missile launchers, sentinels etc, it still was very un-fun for my opponent...
What can I do to help their experience?
2017/07/10 13:06:10
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
As much as I enjoy how powerful Imperial Guard is at the moment, I feel that it isn't a fun army to fight against anymore.
Fighting a shooty army already isn't fun for a more melee-focused army, but our current firepower just turns it into a one-sided slaughterhouse.
No-one wants to see his beloved Khorne Beserkers in a Rhino first get obliterated by Basilisks and then shot to pieces by infantry squads.
No-one wants their favourite character (often representing the player himself or the reason they play said army) get sniped turn one by two Vindicare Assassins.
I mean, even with taking 'mediocre' units like grenade/missile launchers, sentinels etc, it still was very un-fun for my opponent...
What can I do to help their experience?
I'll been thinking along the same lines. I've used IG a few times now (led by St. Celestine - both because I have a conversion that I really like using and to give myself a more interesting HQ) and all but one of them have been pretty brutal for my opponents.
My army is entirely infantry, save for a few Sentinels (they're the only FA choices I own). I've got infantry squads with flamers in the front and then ones with lascannons and missile launchers behind, with HB HWSs right at the back (along with CCs and Commissars to give them orders and keep them around). Basically, it's just too many bodies for my opponents to kill. I feel especially sorry for my opponents' melee units - which will usually butcher a 47pt screening squad and then get obliterated by massed lasgun and plasma fire. What's more, even if they take out those screening squads, the positioning of my other units basically means that the next squad in line takes their place (so if they kill the flamer squad, the plasma and missile squad will act as a screening unit for the plasma and lascannon squad - preventing most multi-charges). And then of course there are the dreaded MT command squads with plasmaguns. Even with the new faq, I can still afford plenty of them (or just ordinary scions).
Anyway, for my next game, I was wondering about proxying DKOK and trying to play them as flavourfully as possible - taking flamers and meltas (maybe some plasma) and rushing them forward with the intention of getting close and even charging the enemy. Incidentally, Celestine will probably appreciate this change of tactic.
I honestly don't know whether this will work but I'm hoping that it will at least be more fun for my opponents (perhaps for me at well).
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/07/10 13:34:23
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
I've updated the post with some pro's/con's and some mathhammer.
Well, I've no experience whatsoever with these tanks or their weapons, so I can't really comment on which has the best rules.
But from a purely aesthetic point of view, I think the Valdor Tank Hunter has the more interesting design.
I have used both, and they're pretty self explanatory and I would say incomparable. The Valdor Tank Hunter hunts tanks (reeeeeeally well, to the point of imposing To Hit modifiers just for bapping the enemy on the nose) , and the Macharius hunts most everything else adequately but not exceptionally.
*shrug*
2017/07/10 13:53:13
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
I still wouldn't take them over any of our other special weapons.
- Flamer is better against hordes and for guaranteed overwatch.
- Plasma is still a better all-rounder (even if you increase its cost).
- Melta is vastly superior against hard targets.
The issue with the grenade launcher (which I'm afraid your proposed fix doesn't address) is that it serves no purpose. It's anti-infantry mode is basically the equivalent of a few lasgun shots. If I might employ a Monty Python quote "We've already got one!"
As for the Krak mode, the strength and AP are both far too low to be a meaningful threat to MCs, vehicles or even Heavy Infantry.
Also, I honestly don't know why you'd want to reduce the range and thus remove the synergy with lasguns. Is it not bad enough already?
Anyway, I think you either need to give it better stats (not merely an extra shot at close-range) or else give it the option to fire some utility grenades.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/07/10 14:30:16
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
As much as I enjoy how powerful Imperial Guard is at the moment, I feel that it isn't a fun army to fight against anymore.
Fighting a shooty army already isn't fun for a more melee-focused army, but our current firepower just turns it into a one-sided slaughterhouse.
No-one wants to see his beloved Khorne Beserkers in a Rhino first get obliterated by Basilisks and then shot to pieces by infantry squads.
No-one wants their favourite character (often representing the player himself or the reason they play said army) get sniped turn one by two Vindicare Assassins.
I mean, even with taking 'mediocre' units like grenade/missile launchers, sentinels etc, it still was very un-fun for my opponent...
What can I do to help their experience?
Sounds like you have a pretty good set of models on your hands and that your army works really well. Congrats! Even with a powerful army, not everyone knows how to construct a good list with synergy.
Now that you are starting to have an understanding of what your army can do well, start trying to understand your opponent's army better. Those berserkers, for example, aren't doing bad in a rhino but the name of the game for assault units is shot mitigation. They need to get to combat before they get shot to all hell. So how can Zerkers do that, for example?
Well, the Dreadclaw drop pod is a good start. It's not cheap but the pod itself does tons of work too. It gets the zerkers a 9" charge on turn 1. But you won't always make a 9" charge, even with an icon of wrath letting you re-roll your charge distance. Let's see if we can do better (we can)
Step 1: turn that dreadclaw into a Kharybdis. You definitely did need 20 zerkers (also known in my circle as Kharn and his 19 closest friends)
Step 2: pray that Khorne will forgive you for taking a daemon prince that is not Khorne
Step 3: pray that the phrase "Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows; only that it flows" covers the inevitable bludgeoning that you will take from casting warptime on your zerkers
Step 4: auto make charge unless you roll snake eyes twice
If he doesn't like Forge World, grab a storm raven and call it a "storm eagle". The Chaos version is a pretty good gunboat and it can also carry 20 zerkers. And it's much more hardy than a rhino. And FWIW, I am a big fan of proxying something like a drop pod as a dreadclaw before you commit to the forge world purchase. But I doubt he'd regret it.
For you, have fun continuing to try out units that you think are just bad. Try crazy things. Maybe they'll work and maybe they won't but if you just bring all the best units, then yeah it probably won't often end well for your opponent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/10 14:42:39
5500 pts 
6500 pts 
7000 pts 
9000 pts 
13.000 pts 
