Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Aenarian wrote:

 Ir0njack wrote:
Personally if they made the regular vanquisers like the Macharius vanquisher I would be happy.

I don't really like the Heavy 2. I think the Vanquisher should be one shot with a big pay-off if it hits, and the Annihilator should be the more slow and steady one. But giving it more strength and a flat damage stat of 6 should probably be good enough.

(Assuming BS4+), This gives a ~72% chance to do nothing against T8 Sv3+, which is slightly better than the 79% chance to fail now, and it deals 6 instead of D6 damage when it actually deals damage.

Ah sorry, I wasn't specific. I meant "like the macharius" in the regard that it has two modes of fire, a regular battle cannon and the S9 vanquisher shot. That would help it imo since currently it wounds most tanks and the like on a 4+, S9 would atlest make it basically a "better lascannon" and if theres no hard targets switch to the battlecannon shells

Oh! The Macharius still has the option of firing HE shells from its Vanquisher cannons?

Yup, either gets 2d6 battle cannon shots or 2 Vanquisher shots but its vanquisher are S9.

Sadly, just like with the LR BT vs LR Vanquisher, the Macharius HBT is better than the Macharius Vanquisher at dealing with enemy tanks.

Having two fireing-modes is cool, but GW/FW need to sort out the actual anti-tank part of the Vanquisher first, before they make rules for high explosive rounds.

But is there a good reason for it? The Macharius Vanquisher Blast Shell is worse than the Heavy Tank's, the AP shell is worse than the Heavy Tank's weapon, and the Vanquisher's blast shell is only a little better than its Blast Shell! Now, the AP shell is still a bit more of a gamble as when it hits, you can usually expect a very good hit, but it also has a very large chance of not doing anything, compared to the blast shells which usually do some damage every round.

While giving the normal Vanquisher some form of HE shell would be nice, it's still not especially attractive. If I needed some dedicated AT, I have literally one of the best possible selections already as AM (HWS with lascannons, LR Annihilators, Rapiers, Vendettas, Scions, Shadowsword, Valdor, Destroyer...) and a lot of things which can do AT-duty pretty effectively (Battle Cannons, heavy artillery of many different kinds, plasma overcharge, Demolishers, other superheavies).

So to echo MinscS2, they really need to sort out the Vanquisher's primary mode instead of just giving it a worse battle cannon-profile, since it will still be worse than standard Leman Russes and we have a lot of units which can supplant it.

I'm trying to do a pro-con of the Wyvern vs. the Taurox Prime (dakka)

It's tough, they're within 5 points of each other, both are designed to handle hordes and do so wildly differently...

I can't decide which is better.

The Taurox:
Hits on 3+
has double the average number of shots
some shots are -2 ap
Transports 10

The Wyvern:
doesn't need line of sight
has double the range
rerolls failed to wound rolls.
+1 wound

I just can't decide which is better in what situation.

The ability to hit things 48" away and out of LoS is certainly worth more than 5pts ...

Although, if facing a horde army, they're more often than not coming at you, so range is less of an issue. Additionally, your placement of the Taurox will be fairly easy to get it where you want it.

I'd say it comes down to your play style and whether or not you find that transport capacity useful, if you have other T7+ targets for your opponent to prioritize, and how much terrain you play with.

The Wyvern has 14 average, with 3 heavy bolt shots. Everything at 36" or more. The Taurox Prime has 28 shots at BS3+, but only within 24". Wyvern will hit 7 mortar shots, wound with 5.25 against T4 and then it will be dependent on save. The heavy bolter will deal an additional ~1 wound. The Taurox hits with ~13.3, wounds with 6.667. Then, the hot-shot volley gun will deal an additional 2.67 wounds.

So at first glance, we have about 6.25 vs 9.5 wounds. If the Taurox has moved, we have 6.25 vs 7.125. The Taurox gains some strength versus high armour due to -2 AP on the volley gun, the Wyvern is slightly better against higher toughness because it can re-roll its mortar and has S5 on the heavy bolter.

In all honesty, I think it depends on what you are facing. If it's a gunline, the Wyvern would probably be preferable. If you have to face down charging Orks, I would take the Taurox. I would also most likely take a lot of mortars over both of them if we're talking pure damage, as you get 12 mortars for the same price, have the same range as the Wyvern, as they can fire out of LoS and as they can be ordered.

Pask cannot order himself, updated FAQ available.

But he may take a hunter-killer missile! Not much updated, but here's the link anyway.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/23/updated-faqs-and-boots-on-the-groundgw-homepage-post-2/

Interesting that there's been no change to plasma, Scions or conscripts.

They will probably come in the codex if nothing else. Of course, it might be that GW will not change them at all.

Can orders be given to heavy mortars, quad mortars, etc, from Imperial Armor that have crews?? I never thought of that ...

HKs on Pask and tank COs is nice.

While Pask not ordering himself anymore is kinda meh, you can now create a nice tank formation consisting of 5 tanks.

Pask, two tank commanders and two regular tanks.

Pask orders the commanders and the commanders each order a regular tank.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Can orders be given to heavy mortars, quad mortars, etc, from Imperial Armor that have crews?? I never thought of that ...

HKs on Pask and tank COs is nice.

You can give orders to the crew, but they won't affect the gun as they are separete units, with the gun being ARTILLERY and the crew being INFANTRY. So the way I presume you're thinking, no.

Nonetheless, the heavy artillery pieces (Earthshaker Platform, Earthshaker Carriage and Medusa Carriage) are decent units in and of themselves, with the Platform being great. The Field Artillery (Heavy Mortar, Heavy Quad Launcher) however are quite subpar when compared to basically any possible replacement.

So... I have found myself with a choice: Ogryns or Bullgryns

Ogryns come out to 30 ppm. Melee is good, and they have ranged capability with their ripper guns. Downside is that they pretty much don't have an armor save.

Bullgryns with Power Maul and Slab shield come out to 42 ppm. Melee is excellent with a 2+ armor save on top of their toughness 5. Downside is that they are very expensive, I could get three squads of guardsmen for a unit of these guys.

I was hoping to us them as a blitz unit, probably deploying from a Chimera alongside a Priest for even more melee goodness. Very expensive, but looks fun to use.

Anyone here have experience with these guys? It's a hard choice for me.

 GreaterGood? wrote:
I'm trying to do a pro-con of the Wyvern vs. the Taurox Prime (dakka)

It's tough, they're within 5 points of each other, both are designed to handle hordes and do so wildly differently...

I can't decide which is better.

The Taurox:
Hits on 3+
has double the average number of shots
some shots are -2 ap
Transports 10

The Wyvern:
doesn't need line of sight
has double the range
rerolls failed to wound rolls.
+1 wound

I just can't decide which is better in what situation.

They do different things. Taurox Prime is great as a light battle tank and fire support unit. Stick 10 scions in it with their hot shot lasguns, and teleport in your Prime when you're ready. Play it smart and you can deploy them and then move them within 9" of an enemy, and then unload 40 or so shots with S3 AP-2. Dakka dakka dakka! Then the TP unloads its 32 shots. Dakka dakka dakka! All for a very reasonable 220 some points.

The wyvren just hangs out in the back and shoots, just like a manticore or basilisk. If that's what you want from it, its cleary better than the TP. TP is going to get shot up because it wants to get close (in the setup we're talking about).

 argonak wrote:

 GreaterGood? wrote:
I'm trying to do a pro-con of the Wyvern vs. the Taurox Prime (dakka)

It's tough, they're within 5 points of each other, both are designed to handle hordes and do so wildly differently...

I can't decide which is better.

The Taurox:
Hits on 3+
has double the average number of shots
some shots are -2 ap
Transports 10

The Wyvern:
doesn't need line of sight
has double the range
rerolls failed to wound rolls.
+1 wound

I just can't decide which is better in what situation.

They do different things. Taurox Prime is great as a light battle tank and fire support unit. Stick 10 scions in it with their hot shot lasguns, and teleport in your Prime when you're ready. Play it smart and you can deploy them and then move them within 9" of an enemy, and then unload 40 or so shots with S3 AP-2. Dakka dakka dakka! Then the TP unloads its 32 shots. Dakka dakka dakka! All for a very reasonable 220 some points.

The wyvren just hangs out in the back and shoots, just like a manticore or basilisk. If that's what you want from it, its cleary better than the TP. TP is going to get shot up because it wants to get close (in the setup we're talking about).

I think the bigger issue is, are you taking other artillery units. If so then you lose placement opportunities for those other units by taking a wyvern.

I want a basilisk/medusa or a manticore before terrain before I want my wvyern there most of the time. I doubt you could hide 5 or 6 tanks behind terrain on most tables completely.
So depends on what you need from the rest of your list and what other de0loyment issues you may find.

 Cothonian wrote:
So... I have found myself with a choice: Ogryns or Bullgryns

Ogryns come out to 30 ppm. Melee is good, and they have ranged capability with their ripper guns. Downside is that they pretty much don't have an armor save.

Bullgryns with Power Maul and Slab shield come out to 42 ppm. Melee is excellent with a 2+ armor save on top of their toughness 5. Downside is that they are very expensive, I could get three squads of guardsmen for a unit of these guys.

I was hoping to us them as a blitz unit, probably deploying from a Chimera alongside a Priest for even more melee goodness. Very expensive, but looks fun to use.

Anyone here have experience with these guys? It's a hard choice for me.

I've not had the opportunity to use ogryns yet, I don't have any so I'm going to proxy a squad the next time I play. But I've been running math between them and rough riders, and I think I like the rough rider options better.

Here's the optimal setup: Assume the enemy is MEQ (the Ogryns are going to be way better against GEQ though)

3 Bullgryns with Bullgryn Mauls and slabshields. 111 points.
Two squads of 5 rough riders with flame throwers, 120 points.

Bullgryns have no ranged weapons, so they just charge in. They do 13 attacks, 8.6 hits, 5.7 wounds, 2.8 unsaved wounds.

Now the 10 rough riders in two squads:
They shoot their 4 laspistols, throw two grenades, and fire 4 flame throwers. That's 2.5 unsaved wounds.
Next they charge. They get 8 lance attacks, 14 chainsword attacks, and 10 tramples. And that's another 5.2 unsaved wounds. And the lances are d3.

If you throw in the priest, the ogryns get 3 more attacks. That bumps them up to unsaved 3.5 wounds. If you can get the priest to the rough riders, which won't be be easy, that bumps them up to 9.6 unsaved wounds. Leaving that out they're still putting out less damage than the rough riders, although the priest brings his own pain if you outfit him right. If you're fighting GEQ, the Ogryns get one more unsaved wound.

That's how my mathhammer worked out anyway. The ogryns have more staying power though, the RR are going to feel the pain on the counter attack.

I have tried Ogryn and Bullgryn. It really depends on what you are facing. Ogryn were an awesome counter attack unit against GEQ. In another game they absolutely shredded some kroot and breachers in only 2 turns.

Bullgryn, while a far more effective unit in my opinion, draw way more fire as a consequence. Gotta admit, dropping them out of a Valk with a priest, Psyker (for that juicy +1 save), and Yarrick for a turn 1 charge was seriously fun. And actually quite effective. Nothing like throwing your opponent a curve ball when playing guard. Wish I had a pic of my opponents face when I dropped them in!

If you're comparing Bullgryns with how many Infantry Squads you can get for the same price, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Bullgryns don't shoot, but they are though, really tough for their points. A Bullgryn with Slab and Maul "pays" 14 points per T5 2+ wound.

They are also hit hard, really hard. Putting them up against 1 wound MEQ's is a bad example, because that's pretty much their worst target.
Against everything else though, be it Primaris Marines, GEQ's, TEQ's, MC's or Vehicles, they are outright nasty.

They can also get a 1+ armoursave pretty easily with psychic powers.

If they die to shooting, that just means that your opponent isn't shooting your other heavy stuff.

I've played with 6 Bullgryns in every game in 8th so far, and they've never been wiped out. Decimated yes, but never wiped out. With that said I used Bullgryns alot in 7th as well.

 MinscS2 wrote:
If you're comparing Bullgryns with how many Infantry Squads you can get for the same price, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Bullgryns don't shoot, but they are though, really tough for their points. A Bullgryn with Slab and Maul "pays" 14 points per T5 2+ wound.

They are also hit hard, really hard. Putting them up against 1 wound MEQ's is a bad example, because that's pretty much their worst target.
Against everything else though, be it Primaris Marines, GEQ's, TEQ's, MC's or Vehicles, they are outright nasty.

They can also get a 1+ armoursave pretty easily with psychic powers.

If they die to shooting, that just means that your opponent isn't shooting your other heavy stuff.

I've played with 6 Bullgryns in every game in 8th so far, and they've never been wiped out. Decimated yes, but never wiped out. With that said I used Bullgryns alot in 7th as well.

How do you equip your Bullgryns? The Maul seems like a no-brainer over the grenade gauntlet, but what kind of shields?

Ive heard people use 4 slabshields en 2 brute shields. Eat small arms fire with the slabs and heavy hitting stuff with the brute shields. While this might wound the brute shield guy and force him to take small arms fire, high dmg weapons usually do D3, 3 or D6 dmg , which means he is most likely dead anyway if he fails his save.

And while a Psyker seems like an obvious support character for them, whats your take in the Priest? Giving them all +1 attack sounds wuite good, but is it worth the priests point cost?

I haven't thought much about Ogryn yet. I normally use infantry squads with power weapons when I want a countercharge unit, but that's mostly personal preference I think. My ogryn are old and metal, so they're strictly "Decently painted and to be ebayed on the off chance I need money for a down payment on a car."

I had a game today. 1250 AM vs Eldar: Eldar win.

I brought 2x10 plasmascions, 1x5 meltascions, plasmascion command squad, two primes, two taurox primes (gatling/HSVG), a basilisk, and two vendettas.

He had a couple Falcons, a couple serpents, and a large bike unit supported with farseer and a warlock. There were guardians in the serpents.

It was pitched battle (or the one where each person gets a long table edge deployment, whatever that's called nowadays) along with the Scouring mission type. Lots of objects for a small amount of points. I deep struck most of the scions, leaving the command squad inside one of the vendettas. Everything else lined up on or near objectives as best they could.

He got first turn (as usual) and immediately ghosted a taurox for first blood. I bring it all in and then I put a couple wounds on one of the falcons, and manage to wipe out a serpent with more focus fire than I wanted to spend. The bike squad is basically removed at this point, too.

He counter attacks with the guardians and manages to obliterate a squad of scions and most of the other. Slaps some damage on the vendettas. Charges one of the primes.

My remaining forces keep trying to put wounds on the vehicles (this continues for basically the rest of the game) while the prime spent a turn beating the hell out of guardians before the farseer got in there and finished him off. At one point around this time, I charged one vendetta and the remaining taurox, not realizing that his entire army has fly, and that lets you just walk out of combat with no repercussions. Made me lose some a lotta sympathy for the price you pay for those skimmers.

Anyway, he slowly wipes everything out until the bottom of 5th when I have my tempestor warlord and a basilisk left, and he's down to three mostly alive skimmers, his warlock, and his farseer. I'm set up for the tie, but we roll to continue. I concede at that point as he'll have me tabled that round.

Items of consideration for me:
- Mechdar is really strong, and you have to be careful what you're shooting at, because they can reduce multi-damage weapon effects quite a bit. Supercharge doesn't get you as much as it feels like it should, and some lucky rolling can make those lascannon shots just kinda disappear.
- In addition, bikes and skimmers having fly means you can't tie them up in melee, so they're gonna keep shooting at you. Needs to be something to plan for.
- I'm starting to see a case for 5 man squads. My opponent tonight was a good player; probably one of the best of the local guys around here. I see him regularly win the local tournaments we used to go to. Having that been said, if there was anyone who was going to appropriately split fire to take out 2x5 squads as opposed to 1x10 squads, it would have been him. Having that been said, I'd like to at least force him to have to try next time.
- The overall strategy that remained consistent through the game was that he kept his entire army surrounding his Farseer, and then kept them bubbled with conceal. That was hugely crippling to my efforts even in addition to all the damage reducing shields and whatnots they get.
- My deployment with the squad in the vendetta probably wasn't great. It's not like they couldn't shoot or anything, and I needed to deploy them somewhere for deep strike reasons, but I really need to think that through at list creation, not at deployment.
- The one taurox erased an entire 10 man guardian squad. I don't know if that's impressive or not, but it seems usable for anti-infantry. 96 points that can kill ~80 points in a turn seems reasonable.
- I'm still on the fence about the vendettas. Yeah, they were definitely more solid than two HWS would have been. I do not know if they were more solid than SIX HWS would have been, which is what they cost. Would have been an entire other vendetta's worth of damage output, and I could have issued it orders (if I had a CC instead of a second Prime). Might have to go that route next time.
- Psykers of my own are going to have to become an autoinclude at this point. Conceal is utterly amazing for a mobile army, and it's really, really easy to pull off. Even with just one casting of it a turn, I was really impressed with how badly it impacted me and how much of his army he was able to affect with it. Thankfully, astropaths are cheap, at least, and 15 points is pretty reasonable to try to shut down a power and be able to give a scion squad nearby power armor for a round. I have a squad of 9 Weirdname psykers that aren't ever going to see use anymore that are already painted. I'll either call them astropaths, or drop all of them in my page, and run that primaris smite spam thing we came up with a few pages ago.

From your writing it's unclear but conceal doesnt affect vehicles, only caster and eldar infantry. Considering how high you're rating conceal, you probably played that wrong.

I'd have avoided shooting the serpent early, focus on the squishy parts first (the bikes, Falcons)

Yes, fly is very annoying on serpents/tau

You are entirely right. We did play that wrong.

I suppose I shall have to become more familiar with the rest of the indexes then.

I think I'll try rolling with a unit of Bullgryns, see how it works out. I must admit, I haven't actually used a dedicated melee unit in years! Going to be weird.

 Cothonian wrote:
I think I'll try rolling with a unit of Bullgryns, see how it works out. I must admit, I haven't actually used a dedicated melee unit in years! Going to be weird.

Weird but cool! BLOOD FOR THE... ahem. Emperor. That's what I meant.

I'd really like to try 2 units of 5 all-maul Bullgryns in a Crassus, with Straken and a Priest. That's 62 S7 Ap1 D2 attacks on the charge from the big boys. Only problem I see is I don't think the Crassus is durable enough to weather a round of shooting if your opponent goes first and really wants it dead (which he should).

Doctoralex wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
If you're comparing Bullgryns with how many Infantry Squads you can get for the same price, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Bullgryns don't shoot, but they are though, really tough for their points. A Bullgryn with Slab and Maul "pays" 14 points per T5 2+ wound.

They are also hit hard, really hard. Putting them up against 1 wound MEQ's is a bad example, because that's pretty much their worst target.
Against everything else though, be it Primaris Marines, GEQ's, TEQ's, MC's or Vehicles, they are outright nasty.

They can also get a 1+ armoursave pretty easily with psychic powers.

If they die to shooting, that just means that your opponent isn't shooting your other heavy stuff.

I've played with 6 Bullgryns in every game in 8th so far, and they've never been wiped out. Decimated yes, but never wiped out. With that said I used Bullgryns alot in 7th as well.

How do you equip your Bullgryns? The Maul seems like a no-brainer over the grenade gauntlet, but what kind of shields?

Ive heard people use 4 slabshields en 2 brute shields. Eat small arms fire with the slabs and heavy hitting stuff with the brute shields. While this might wound the brute shield guy and force him to take small arms fire, high dmg weapons usually do D3, 3 or D6 dmg , which means he is most likely dead anyway if he fails his save.

And while a Psyker seems like an obvious support character for them, whats your take in the Priest? Giving them all +1 attack sounds wuite good, but is it worth the priests point cost?

Bruteshields are nice for soaking that Lascannon shot, but I prefer Slabshields when combined with Psychic Barrier (+1 to saving throws.)
However, the latest FAQ clarified that this also increases your invuln, so now Bullgryns can get a 3++ with the Bruteshields as well.

So far in 8th I've run them with Slabshields only (1+ is better or equal to a 4++ against anything but AP4 and better), but now i might actually go with one or two Bruteshields mixed in since they clarified that in the FAQ.

As for the Priest, I have yet to actually try one in 8th. It seems I always have better things to spend those points on. The Primaris Psyker has replaced him as the Bullgryn-buffer.
I'm gonna try field one the next time I play with Bullgryns though, and preferably I'll have some Infantry Squads with powerweapons in them nearby as well to make extra use of his aura.

I'm wary of Bullgryns simply because they concentrate points too much for my liking.

Just personal preference but, aside from the occasional character, I prefer having several weaker squads to one big, expensive one.

So I found it odd they only chose 7 space marine chapters for tactics. So I wonder if this is deliberate to give each faction 7 "chapters". Orks coincidentally have 7 clans with freebooters. So which 7 regiments do you think guards will have?
Cadian
Catachan
Vostroyan
Valhallan
Steel legion
Mordian
Tallarn

Are my guesses. Which leaves out praetorian, which haven't had models in a long time. (And dkok and Elysian which fw will have to do) Or do you think gw will just do 8+ regiments for guard?

It will be good to see how they expand necron dynasties, tyranid hive fleets, and tau septs to create 7 chapters for each.