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 Smotejob wrote:
This is my base of an army...

Creed
Lord commissar
Tempest Scion CC

50 conscripts
3x infantry (w weapon team)
2x scions w. Plasma

Astropath
Priest
Eversor assassin

Hellhound
2x scout sentinel (flamer)

Manticore
2x Mortars weapons teams

Then build from there... Lot of fun so far and does really well. Building from there I can either go more guard for anti tank, or bring a more elite Ally. Lots of fun. 11 command points. Good staying power and decent fire power.

Seems perfectly fine, balanced, and not spammy.

A very good core to build off of!

Here's a question for the chat here: what're everyone's thoughts on Manticores vs Manticore platforms? Platforms are heavy d6 S9 -3 and damage d6 with a very long range. Compared to a normal manticore it's half the shots and double the damage but better AP value and a little bit cheaper. Felt worth it to me personally because it's a little better anti tank and can take 3 in one HS slot.

 jifel wrote:
Here's a question for the chat here: what're everyone's thoughts on Manticores vs Manticore platforms? Platforms are heavy d6 S9 -3 and damage d6 with a very long range. Compared to a normal manticore it's half the shots and double the damage but better AP value and a little bit cheaper. Felt worth it to me personally because it's a little better anti tank and can take 3 in one HS slot.

They're actually quite different animals for one big reason: the battery's manticore missiles don't have the "one per turn" restriction, so you can launch all of those puppies in a single volley. Of course, after that the battery is completely useless unless you managed to deploy it on an objective.

So if you need something to alpha strike enemy tanks/monsters off the board, take the batteries. Just be aware that they are essentially one-trick ponies, and don't get much of a discount over the Manticore tank.

KestrelM1 wrote:

They're actually quite different animals for one big reason: the battery's manticore missiles don't have the "one per turn" restriction, .

Ooh that could be real mean. I'm imagining a first turn volley on high value targets... ouch.

The Manticore Platform is basically armed with 4D6 one-shot lascannons, with a much higher range for 120 points. (80 + 4 missiles). The Manticore Tank is armed with 2d6 S10 AP-2 D3, but it also does not require line of sight, for 133 points. It is also tougher with better save and 4 more wounds.

I think they're pretty well balanced. The Platform is worse against non-vehicles because it has less shots and more damage, and will frequently overkill. Against vehicles, it's slightly better because of its AP and because S10 very rarely matters. It also has the benefit of being able to fire everything in one volley (although I think that might get FAQ'd if they do another take).

So what one to take is dependent on what kind of situation you think you will face. Do you need very dedicated AT? Take the platform. Need a jack of all trades? Take the Manticore tank.

It can be worth noting that the platform would only really destroy one average heavy tank, with about 14 wounds caused, so it'll pay for itself and then do nothing.

 Aenarian wrote:
The Manticore Platform is basically armed with 4D6 one-shot lascannons, with a much higher range for 120 points. (80 + 4 missiles). The Manticore Tank is armed with 2d6 S10 AP-2 D3, but it also does not require line of sight, for 133 points. It is also tougher with better save and 4 more wounds.

I think they're pretty well balanced. The Platform is worse against non-vehicles because it has less shots and more damage, and will frequently overkill. Against vehicles, it's slightly better because of its AP and because S10 very rarely matters. It also has the benefit of being able to fire everything in one volley (although I think that might get FAQ'd if they do another take).

So what one to take is dependent on what kind of situation you think you will face. Do you need very dedicated AT? Take the platform. Need a jack of all trades? Take the Manticore tank.

It can be worth noting that the platform would only really destroy one average heavy tank, with about 14 wounds caused, so it'll pay for itself and then do nothing.

Now combine it with a Trojan and you get 20.46 wounds on turn 1 against something like a Leman Russ.
You even have 19% chance of one-shotting an Imperial Knight.

I've been pondering whether it would even be fair to bring to a friendly casual game.

Nemo84 wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:
The Manticore Platform is basically armed with 4D6 one-shot lascannons, with a much higher range for 120 points. (80 + 4 missiles). The Manticore Tank is armed with 2d6 S10 AP-2 D3, but it also does not require line of sight, for 133 points. It is also tougher with better save and 4 more wounds.

I think they're pretty well balanced. The Platform is worse against non-vehicles because it has less shots and more damage, and will frequently overkill. Against vehicles, it's slightly better because of its AP and because S10 very rarely matters. It also has the benefit of being able to fire everything in one volley (although I think that might get FAQ'd if they do another take).

So what one to take is dependent on what kind of situation you think you will face. Do you need very dedicated AT? Take the platform. Need a jack of all trades? Take the Manticore tank.

It can be worth noting that the platform would only really destroy one average heavy tank, with about 14 wounds caused, so it'll pay for itself and then do nothing.

Now combine it with a Trojan and you get 20.46 wounds on turn 1 against something like a Leman Russ.
You even have 19% chance of one-shotting an Imperial Knight.

I've been pondering whether it would even be fair to bring to a friendly casual game.

What's the math on a Land Raider?

Nemo84 wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:
The Manticore Platform is basically armed with 4D6 one-shot lascannons, with a much higher range for 120 points. (80 + 4 missiles). The Manticore Tank is armed with 2d6 S10 AP-2 D3, but it also does not require line of sight, for 133 points. It is also tougher with better save and 4 more wounds.

I think they're pretty well balanced. The Platform is worse against non-vehicles because it has less shots and more damage, and will frequently overkill. Against vehicles, it's slightly better because of its AP and because S10 very rarely matters. It also has the benefit of being able to fire everything in one volley (although I think that might get FAQ'd if they do another take).

So what one to take is dependent on what kind of situation you think you will face. Do you need very dedicated AT? Take the platform. Need a jack of all trades? Take the Manticore tank.

It can be worth noting that the platform would only really destroy one average heavy tank, with about 14 wounds caused, so it'll pay for itself and then do nothing.

Now combine it with a Trojan and you get 20.46 wounds on turn 1 against something like a Leman Russ

You even have 19% chance of one-shotting an Imperial Knight.

Yes, and the Trojan itself is pretty expensive, with only a few units being great to pair with, such as Manticore Platforms (which honestly shouldn't be vehicles in the first case). I probably wouldn't hold my breath for actually killing a Knight because of all the shield and randomness, but you will at least damage it enough. You also need to actually have LoS, with might be difficult because of terrain, and a Knight-player is likely to have first turn.

But in all honesty, this is just a case of broken interactions just like Conscripts and them synergizing very well with orders, or the unpatched Defence Searchlight. Remove the vehicle keyword from all platforms which still have it.

 Aenarian wrote:

Nemo84 wrote:


Now combine it with a Trojan and you get 20.46 wounds on turn 1 against something like a Leman Russ

You even have 19% chance of one-shotting an Imperial Knight.

Yes, and the Trojan itself is pretty expensive, with only a few units being great to pair with, such as Manticore Platforms (which honestly shouldn't be vehicles in the first case). I probably wouldn't hold my breath for actually killing a Knight because of all the shield and randomness, but you will at least damage it enough. You also need to actually have LoS, with might be difficult because of terrain, and a Knight-player is likely to have first turn.

But in all honesty, this is just a case of broken interactions just like Conscripts and benefitting more from orders, or the unpatched Defence Searchlight. Remove the vehicle keyword from all platforms which still have it.

Why would you remove the vehicle keyword from platforms? Why should static artillery not get to benefit from a forward observer vehicle?

If the Manticore + Trojan combo is overpowered, the solution would be to nerf the already very good Manticore, not limit the usability of the rather expensive Trojan.

Do people have any recommendations in terms of target priority for AM against specific enemies based off experience with the 8th edition? A top 5 kind of thing. The removal of things that will cause movement buffs/attack buffs/ cause havoc with my tanks etc. I've only played Orks but..

Orks

1) Weirdboy (especially if its a foot slogger army). Taking him out slowed the entire army down. The opposite side of this is that he causes the orks to arrive piecemeal into a line of bayonets/FRFSRF/ a rough rider charge.

2)Anything with a custom forcefield (Orks should not be allowed saves against my big guns)

3) Tankbustas: Terrifyingly good against tanks especially if loaded into a battlewagon... I get its in the name but still...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I get this is 2 short of a top 5 but its just to get the ball rolling.

But the Trojan is already quite balanced, as is the Manticore (although it could stand two minor nerfs, see the next parapgraph). What we're doing by removing the interaction is removing a possibly broken first strike combination for game reasons. Of course it could be argued that fluffwise, an observer vehicle would benefit a static platform, but the Trojan is not a forward observer vehicle. The Trojan is basically a transport for ammunition and used for towing platforms. You might as well ask why the MoO does not benefit any static artillery. Furthermore, a vehicle is usually a mobile machine, so static emplacements would not be vehicles in general use.

You have a Manticore Platform which is about as good as a normal Manticore, so nerfing it very much would probably make it unusable. If we begin by making it able to fire one missile per shooting phase, it still remains quite easy to kill and not dealing extreme amounts of damage, about 4 Lascannon teams worth. Is this too good? Maybe, but then we can increase the points cost a bit. In this case, the Trojan combo might be balanced. Should one Manticore worth ~150 points be able to kill a tank during play? Yes, with all four missiles.

As you said, it has a decent although not spectacular chance of killing a Knight. A Knight costs more than double the price of the Manticore and Trojan combo, so even getting it to 12 wounds would be a very good result. Making a 220 points combo able to actually kill one Knight is broken. Then, we can consider that if we have two Manticore Platforms, we only need one trojan and hope the second one survives 'til turn two. Killing or crippling two knights for 350 points? Talk about efficiency!

So, if we actually balance the Manticore Platform better (i.e. one shot per turn to start with) the Trojan combination would be balanced. If further balancing is necessary, increase the cost of the platform. In this scenario, no need to break the combo. Otherwise, an easy fix would to actually do it.

In fact, I don't even understand why they made the Trojan as it is. Lorewise, it has no actual use with vehicles and should probably give its buffs to artillery instead.

Edit: I think you should know that I'm not advocating of breaking this combination just because, but its a quick and easy fix and would prevent some possibly broken combiations. I think a more elegant one would be as you said balancing the Manticore a bit better, but that would be more complicated. I also don't understandt the way they have gone with static guns being vehicles. Fixed artillery are not considered vehicles in any sense of the word.

Edit2: I also think they should probably limit the Trojan to normal vehicles as its currently silly when used with superheavies, granting 50% more firepower for 20% of the cost. In this case, it could also stand to be 10-15 points cheaper (or about 50% the cost of a Leman Russ).

I played an all-tank list and managed to win a tournament this past weekend, so I wanted to share my thoughts. My list was built to minimize drops - at 6 drops I had fewer than any of my opponents.

Spearhead
Pask - Punisher, Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Storm Bolter, H-K Missile

2x Punishers - Heavy Flamer, Storm Bolter
3x Basilisks
3x Basilisks

2x Hellhound - Heavy Flamer

Super-Heavy Auxiliary
Shadowsword - One set Lascannon + Heavy Flamer Sponsons, Heavy Stubber

My thoughts, in list order:

Pask - Didn't get to do much because he was tied up in CC constantly, mostly fell back and overwatched. That said, he overwatched beautifully, as the punisher cannon basically guaranteed a couple wounds through sheer volume. The one turn he did shoot he chewed through half an 8-man SM bike squad. Still, a no-brainer for 10 points over a Tank Commander unless you need to use a non-<Cadia> regiment. At the very least he was threatening enough that 2 opponents suicided Helldrakes into melee keep him from shooting.

Punishers - I had a great time with this configuration. Moving around 10" at full firepower felt great, and they were a huge pain to charge because of their great overwatch. I will say I am a bit disappointed in their durability. Even at +2T and +1W over the Basilisks, they did not feel significantly tougher, despite being significantly more expensive. Hard to say whether their durability is low or Basilisk durability is high, but I hope they get a small cost reduction or slightly better staying power.

Basilisks - A gold standard for reliability. Consistently puts 2d3 wounds on anything, anywhere, anytime. Great against anything with multiple wounds, serviceable against most everything else. More durable than you'd think, especially in an armor-saturation army. Probably terrible against hordes, but I didn't face many. They were fantastic for driving to objectives once I had whittled down enemy forces. Highly recommended, but definitely back them up with anti-horde stuff.

Hellhounds - The opposite of reliable, these guys were feast or famine. The 1d6 turret is so swingy that it's really hard to predict how well these guys will do in any given shooting phase. I brought them hoping they'd be anti-horde tools and they're pretty definitively not that, as they just don't push enough wounds. They're much better against stuff like bikes or thunderwolves than they are against regular infantry; they actually seem to overlap a lot with Basilisks in terms of ideal targets. Still, being able to zip around 12" at a time and fire at full effectiveness was nice. Just don't expect these guys to chew through cheap infantry.

Shadowsword - I saved the best for last. The Shadowsword was an absolute all-star from start to finish. I didn't care much for the twin heavy bolters or the lascannons, but the volcano cannon and especially the heavy flamers put in a ton of work. The main gun deleted a big enemy target per turn, as it claimed a Vindicator, a Land Raider, a Forge Fiend, and even a whole Renegade Knight each in a single turn of shooting. I got very lucky to one-shot the Knight and Raider, but the mere potential for that kind of damage is amazing. This was one 1d6 weapon that I didn't mind much at all, though it helped immensely that I saved nearly all my command points to re-roll that shot number.

The twin heavy flamer sponsons deserve their own paragraph. If you're on the fence about fielding your super-heavy with these, just do it. Yes, it's a lot of points, but it makes your super-heavy an absolute terror in close quarters, not to mention suicidal to charge. It means your super-heavy is still extremely dangerous to be around even if it's crippled and shooting everything else on 6+. These put in just as much work as the volcano cannon over the course of my 3 games, and the volcano cannon was no slouch. Two sets of sponsons is probably overkill, but I highly recommend taking at least one. They are simply a great buy.

Overall, if I was to revise the list I'd probably replace the Hellhounds with some sort of Infantry screen, as keeping stuff out of melee with my tanks proved challenging. It'd also help a small bit with anti-infantry firepower, which I felt was very concentrated into the Russes and Shadowsword (ironically) in this list.

Anyway, I hope that gives some insight into those units and helps you all with your future list-building.

KestrelM1 wrote:
<Snip>

Great to hear! I might try playing a bit more with my Shadowsword.

Also, if you want more reliability for the Hellhound, the Forge World Artemia Pattern Hellound has 2d6 discard lowest for number of shots, for 7 points more than a standard one.

Edit:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/26/rumour-engine-july-26th-2017/

Well damn.

 Aenarian wrote:
Also, if you want more reliability for the Hellhound, the Forge World Artemia Pattern Hellound has 2d6 discard lowest for number of shots, for 7 points more than a standard one.

Yeah, I would take that upgrade anytime. This particular event was not allowing Forge World models, or I would have definitely fielded two of those instead. The 2d6 discard lowest would hugely help with their reliability, but I actually don't think it will change their ideal targets much. They won't make a significant dent in hordes, and will be better served hunting for multi-wound infantry.

I'm looking to the Taurox w/ gatling cannon, the Vulture w/ twin punishers, or maybe even the Immolator w/ Immolation flamer for more vehicle-based anti-horde firepower in the future.

Well, the 1d6 shots at D2 was a weird decision. I think that 2d6 shots at D1 would have been preferable (with 4d6 pick 2 highest for the Artemia), as its considered an anti-horde weapon.

I play in a hyper-competitive club where, I've noticed since 8th came out, spam is the name of the game: Spamhammer40k. Even more so then 7th I think.

So far I've played against spamming stormravens, spamming dual autocannon dreads with a 4+ invuln and, shocker, spamming IG Russes and Bassies/Manticore/Wyverns. Against the flyers my newly acquired shadowsword literally blew up turn one taking out a chunk of my own hapless infantry - granted my opponent's entire army had to shoot at pretty much only shadowsword but that was 1/4 of my army gone turn one. Against IG I ran two knights with my guard and both were gone by turn two. Did well against the dreads as I went heavier infantry and 4 scion plasma command squads. Played a book mission and was winning by turn 5 but, naturally, we went to turn 7 at which point it was a tie on primaries and secondaries and finally lost to points destroyed as I ignored his dreads in favor of trying to hold the only two objectives on the board.

Admittedly most of my lists have been more me experimenting with different units rather than playing the latest net list (so glad I didn't invest in another two storm ravens now). I like to think I lean more towards being a casual player vs WAAC who crawls off in a corner and pouts when one of their cheesier units stubs a toe.

That being said does anyone else have a "boilerplate" list they've been running that they feel will stand up to the spammy lists being put forth lately? I'm going to Nova in a couple of weeks and really need to nail down what I want my IG to look like modelwise. I have 2 bassies, 3 valks, 3 russes, 1 manticore, 100 or so infantry, 1 HWS/heavy bolter, 2 HWS/lascannon, 2 HWS/autocannon, 1 HWS/mortar, lots of chimeras, 4 plasma scion command squads and primes, 3 wyverns, 2 scout sentinals, 2 armored sentinals, 1 shadowsword, moo, astropath, fleet guy, couple of commissars, command squad with sniper rifles, 3 defense searchlights.

 Aenarian wrote:

KestrelM1 wrote:
<Snip>

Great to hear! I might try playing a bit more with my Shadowsword.

Also, if you want more reliability for the Hellhound, the Forge World Artemia Pattern Hellound has 2d6 discard lowest for number of shots, for 7 points more than a standard one.

Edit:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/26/rumour-engine-july-26th-2017/

Well damn.

Spoiler:

What am I missing here?

It's not a standard cadian or catachan lasgun, and it's not a tempestus hot-shot either.

CaptainO wrote:
Do people have any recommendations in terms of target priority for AM against specific enemies based off experience with the 8th edition? A top 5 kind of thing. The removal of things that will cause movement buffs/attack buffs/ cause havoc with my tanks etc. I've only played Orks but..

Orks

1) Weirdboy (especially if its a foot slogger army). Taking him out slowed the entire army down. The opposite side of this is that he causes the orks to arrive piecemeal into a line of bayonets/FRFSRF/ a rough rider charge.

2)Anything with a custom forcefield (Orks should not be allowed saves against my big guns)

3) Tankbustas: Terrifyingly good against tanks especially if loaded into a battlewagon... I get its in the name but still...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I get this is 2 short of a top 5 but its just to get the ball rolling

Anything with fly. Anything with long range anti armour. (Depending on the amount of bubble you have). It really depends on what you have.

 necron99 wrote:
I play in a hyper-competitive club where, I've noticed since 8th came out, spam is the name of the game: Spamhammer40k. Even more so then 7th I think.

So far I've played against spamming stormravens, spamming dual autocannon dreads with a 4+ invuln and, shocker, spamming IG Russes and Bassies/Manticore/Wyverns. Against the flyers my newly acquired shadowsword literally blew up turn one taking out a chunk of my own hapless infantry - granted my opponent's entire army had to shoot at pretty much only shadowsword but that was 1/4 of my army gone turn one. Against IG I ran two knights with my guard and both were gone by turn two. Did well against the dreads as I went heavier infantry and 4 scion plasma command squads. Played a book mission and was winning by turn 5 but, naturally, we went to turn 7 at which point it was a tie on primaries and secondaries and finally lost to points destroyed as I ignored his dreads in favor of trying to hold the only two objectives on the board.

Admittedly most of my lists have been more me experimenting with different units rather than playing the latest net list (so glad I didn't invest in another two storm ravens now). I like to think I lean more towards being a casual player vs WAAC who crawls off in a corner and pouts when one of their cheesier units stubs a toe.

That being said does anyone else have a "boilerplate" list they've been running that they feel will stand up to the spammy lists being put forth lately? I'm going to Nova in a couple of weeks and really need to nail down what I want my IG to look like modelwise. I have 2 bassies, 3 valks, 3 russes, 1 manticore, 100 or so infantry, 1 HWS/heavy bolter, 2 HWS/lascannon, 2 HWS/autocannon, 1 HWS/mortar, lots of chimeras, 4 plasma scion command squads and primes, 3 wyverns, 2 scout sentinals, 2 armored sentinals, 1 shadowsword, moo, astropath, fleet guy, couple of commissars, command squad with sniper rifles, 3 defense searchlights.

My core always includes 50 conscripts, 3x guardsmen squads with plasma and Las Cannon, basilisk, mortar heavy weapons squads, and some Scions.

My strategy for list building thus far is redundancy and barely any armor. Typically, I can keep a Basilisk and Wyvern/Hydra out of LoS so I offer the enemy 0 worthwhile targets for their anti armor weapons which brings me great joy. Then I just sit back and shoot and use Scions and rough Riders to cap OBJs or hit HVTs.

Thanks @Colonel Cross so what's the magic behind conscripts? I admit that I sort of shelved my IG during 6th & 7th in favor of my Necrons but 8th seems to have put a lot more life in IG. So I don't know maybe conscripts have been a thing all along - I just haven't seen them played locally.

I just use them to be a nuisance, board control, and psychological warfare.

I managed to tie up almost an entire space wolf wave for 2 turns by spacing them out, assaulting, surviving, then using orders to fall back and shoot. This works great against elite armies. It would only hold up for 1 turn against orks or Tyranids. They're a speed bump to protect your social and heavy weapons or bubble wrap your tanks if you have any. They're also great for denying deep striking units.

I've had a lot of use out of scout sentinels.

They can scout move up 9". Allowing you to help deny deepstrike or just block lanes off.

If they shoot them great. If not they can roll up and get in their face. And they are pretty darn tough.

I use 2 with heavy flamers and 2 with power lifters (3A, S10, AP-2, D3 wounds). They are an auto include for me.

Haha yeah scout sentinels are surprisingly resilient. Especially because they are low on our opponents priority list haha.

 necron99 wrote:
Thanks @Colonel Cross so what's the magic behind conscripts? I admit that I sort of shelved my IG during 6th & 7th in favor of my Necrons but 8th seems to have put a lot more life in IG. So I don't know maybe conscripts have been a thing all along - I just haven't seen them played locally.

They're very cheap and you can give 50 of them an order with one platoon commander.

You can use them for effective bubble wrapping, or for order efficiency (not really both, since bubble wrapping requires them to be spread out and they won't be in range of the target anymore). Give them a commissar and they'll stick around a long time.

Point for point shooting wise, they're worse than normal guardsman unless you are giving them orders, at which point they become more efficient at 3.1 hits per point versus 2.4 points per hit.

So if you can get all 50 in range of a target, they're 30% more points efficient. But without orders they're worse per point. And they're only ever shooting pathetic s3 ap0 lasguns too. They get no special or heavy weapons, and no sergeants. The mathematical breakeven point for conscripts versus guards with orders is 20. After 20 you're saving points on orders while getting the same number of hits. Unless I hosed my math up.

If you were to run some Sentinels for infantry support/vehicle escort, would you guys prefer Missile Launchers or Lascannons? Or does the HF Sentinel do its job well enough on its own?

For vehicle support I'd run heavy flamers for sure

Heavy flamer with a 2 point chainsaw is a great idea for an armored sentinel designed to help protect your vehicles.

 Zuri Prime wrote:
If you were to run some Sentinels for infantry support/vehicle escort, would you guys prefer Missile Launchers or Lascannons? Or does the HF Sentinel do its job well enough on its own?

I dont like running any weapons that will be hitting on 5's (assuming moving). Youll end up being disappointed. Run Heavy Flamers. Run them towards the enemy. You want them to get charged. Overwatch. Fall back. Get charged again, overwatch again. Etc. Continue until dead.

Look into FW powerlifters too. 10pts a model. Ive had awesome luck with them. I scout moved. Went first. Moved up. charged my opponents demolisher shutting down a pretty big threat to me. Ended up killing it turn 2.

What about Lascannons on Sentinels? Was thinking of using those just because solo platforms are annoying to kill. (I was thinking 4 to 6 Sentinels with Las/HK). Just Scout up into range then start plinking away.