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They are amazing. I run with them lascannons though.

5++. 15 inch movement. Great looking models if you can afford it. hitting on 4's even if you moved.

A headache for sure.

RogueApiary wrote:
So something I've been trying out lately and seems to be working is using the Company Command Squad slots to make baby heavy weapons teams (usually have 3-4 officers in my lists). 44 points for a 4 wound bs 3+ lascannon. With a Commissar nearby, they can't fail morale from losing the two bulletcatchers. So far the tendency has been for my opponents to either ignore them, not devote enough firepower to kill the gun in a single round of shooting, or severely overkilling them. I'm guessing this won't work at a competitive level though. Any thoughts/experiences with this setup?

Personally I don't see the point in these when you could get a heavy weapons squad and replace the guardsmen with mortar teams. The anti infantry firepower and extra wounds far outweigh bs3+ in my opinion, plus they're a little cheaper

RogueApiary wrote:
So something I've been trying out lately and seems to be working is using the Company Command Squad slots to make baby heavy weapons teams (usually have 3-4 officers in my lists). 44 points for a 4 wound bs 3+ lascannon. With a Commissar nearby, they can't fail morale from losing the two bulletcatchers. So far the tendency has been for my opponents to either ignore them, not devote enough firepower to kill the gun in a single round of shooting, or severely overkilling them. I'm guessing this won't work at a competitive level though. Any thoughts/experiences with this setup?

Battleshock can be devastating for the guard. Even with a commisar, you often find yourself executing the last man or choosing between special or heavy. his seems like an interesting solution.

 DoomMouse wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
So something I've been trying out lately and seems to be working is using the Company Command Squad slots to make baby heavy weapons teams (usually have 3-4 officers in my lists). 44 points for a 4 wound bs 3+ lascannon. With a Commissar nearby, they can't fail morale from losing the two bulletcatchers. So far the tendency has been for my opponents to either ignore them, not devote enough firepower to kill the gun in a single round of shooting, or severely overkilling them. I'm guessing this won't work at a competitive level though. Any thoughts/experiences with this setup?

Personally I don't see the point in these when you could get a heavy weapons squad and replace the guardsmen with mortar teams. The anti infantry firepower and extra wounds far outweigh bs3+ in my opinion, plus they're a little cheaper

Wouldn't Heavy Bolters be better for that purpose, since the squad won't be able to stay out of LoS and still fire their Lascannon?

 DoomMouse wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
So something I've been trying out lately and seems to be working is using the Company Command Squad slots to make baby heavy weapons teams (usually have 3-4 officers in my lists). 44 points for a 4 wound bs 3+ lascannon. With a Commissar nearby, they can't fail morale from losing the two bulletcatchers. So far the tendency has been for my opponents to either ignore them, not devote enough firepower to kill the gun in a single round of shooting, or severely overkilling them. I'm guessing this won't work at a competitive level though. Any thoughts/experiences with this setup?

Personally I don't see the point in these when you could get a heavy weapons squad and replace the guardsmen with mortar teams. The anti infantry firepower and extra wounds far outweigh bs3+ in my opinion, plus they're a little cheaper

I dunno. In my local meta, my opponents have a big enough hateboner for my mortars as it is. So its tough enough keeping them alive by keeping them out of LOS. By putting a lascannon in, it exposes the mortars to return fire from everything that can see the LC unless I remove the lc first, which defeats the purpose of putting it in with the cheaper mortars.

So with that, it seems 2HB 1LC would be the better option, but then your bullet catchers are running 12 points per instead of 6. You get more wounds against single damage weapons but autocannons will treat them the same.

The 4 man setup is a little less vulnerable to 2D weapons than a 3 HWT HWS in that an autocannon will need to deal 3 wounds to kill 2 guardsmen and a lascannon vs those same 3 wounds killing two mortars/hb and a lascannon.

Of things likely to wipe out the 4 man, a lot of them seem like overkill. For example, a storm raven could devote a hurricane bolter rack to each one, but thats 12 boltgun shots not mulching larger squads and not a guarantee of killing them, especially if they're in cover. They would need to turn both banks of hurricane bolters on one to guarantee the kill. Which should overkill them by as much as 3 wounds in the open and 2 in cover.

The bs 3 also gets more mileage out of reroll 1's to hit.

Nevertheless, I suspect the success I've been having is a result of bad opponents and not a virtue of the 4man teams. They seem to apply just enough firepower toward them to kill the bulletcatchers without removing the lc.

Prior to this, I stuck the lascannons in my four infantry squads and it felt really ineffective. It also made 40 bodies that could be capping objectives rooted in place or having to hit on 5's with the lc.

RogueApiary wrote:
By putting a lascannon in, it exposes the mortars to return fire from everything that can see the LC unless I remove the lc first, which defeats the purpose of putting it in with the cheaper mortars.

I don't see the problem, the mortars are cheap. It doesn't really matter if they are used as chaff wounds, just spam some more if you are afraid of losing them all. They even have the same range as the LC.

sossen wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
By putting a lascannon in, it exposes the mortars to return fire from everything that can see the LC unless I remove the lc first, which defeats the purpose of putting it in with the cheaper mortars.

I don't see the problem, the mortars are cheap. It doesn't really matter if they are used as chaff wounds, just spam some more if you are afraid of losing them all. They even have the same range as the LC.

He does lose a point of ballistic skill. 3+ reroll 1s with a lascannon is pretty nice...

CplPunishment wrote:

sossen wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
By putting a lascannon in, it exposes the mortars to return fire from everything that can see the LC unless I remove the lc first, which defeats the purpose of putting it in with the cheaper mortars.

I don't see the problem, the mortars are cheap. It doesn't really matter if they are used as chaff wounds, just spam some more if you are afraid of losing them all. They even have the same range as the LC.

He does lose a point of ballistic skill. 3+ reroll 1s with a lascannon is pretty nice...

Indeed it is, especially since we don't have any other source of BS3+ lascannons (which are worlds better then BS4+). I'm going to try this in my next game because it's a much better way of getting lascannons than a HWTs. You really don't even need a Commissar to babysit the command squads... 90% they will either be totally destroyed or still pass morale on a 3+.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Indeed it is, especially since we don't have any other source of BS3+ lascannons (which are worlds better then BS4+).

What about Veterans?

 vipoid wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Indeed it is, especially since we don't have any other source of BS3+ lascannons (which are worlds better then BS4+).

What about Veterans?

Pretty sure Vets cost more, and for the price most people seem to prefer using their extra special weapon slots and access to shotguns rather than sitting them back. Just my take anyway.

 doc1234 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Indeed it is, especially since we don't have any other source of BS3+ lascannons (which are worlds better then BS4+).

What about Veterans?

Pretty sure Vets cost more, and for the price most people seem to prefer using their extra special weapon slots and access to shotguns rather than sitting them back. Just my take anyway.

Oh, absolutely. I was just pointing out that we do have one other source of BS3+ Lascannons, even if it's not optimal.

 vipoid wrote:

 doc1234 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Indeed it is, especially since we don't have any other source of BS3+ lascannons (which are worlds better then BS4+).

What about Veterans?

Pretty sure Vets cost more, and for the price most people seem to prefer using their extra special weapon slots and access to shotguns rather than sitting them back. Just my take anyway.

Oh, absolutely. I was just pointing out that we do have one other source of BS3+ Lascannons, even if it's not optimal.

Oh, my mistake

You're right, I forgot about ves with Lascannons. When I build a list my elite slots are so congested that I forgot Veterans even existed. That and I can't seem to find a niche for them to fill.

On another note, after playing with both the Basilisk and the Battle Cannon LR I'm starting to think the Vanquisher Cannon is worth a second look. How are Basilisks and LRBTs related to the Vanquisher? The Basilisk's highest of 2d6 shots usually nets me 4-6 shots. If this held true with the Vanquisher's damage roll, I would consistently be landing 4-6 damage. Very seldom do my battle cannons put 4-6 damage on anything and my experience is that being able to reliably put 4-6 damage on something is extremely valuable (Basilisks are great at this). Yes I know the math says the Vanq. is terrible, but it IS consistent (when fired by Pask) where the Battle Cannon is totally unreliable. I'm going to give it a try.

 vipoid wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Indeed it is, especially since we don't have any other source of BS3+ lascannons (which are worlds better then BS4+).

What about Veterans?

I personally like Veteran squads, but if you don't need the special weapons, his way works just fine. For fewer points.

Vets in bastion seems good

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
You're right, I forgot about ves with Lascannons. When I build a list my elite slots are so congested that I forgot Veterans even existed. That and I can't seem to find a niche for them to fill.

On another note, after playing with both the Basilisk and the Battle Cannon LR I'm starting to think the Vanquisher Cannon is worth a second look. How are Basilisks and LRBTs related to the Vanquisher? The Basilisk's highest of 2d6 shots usually nets me 4-6 shots. If this held true with the Vanquisher's damage roll, I would consistently be landing 4-6 damage. Very seldom do my battle cannons put 4-6 damage on anything and my experience is that being able to reliably put 4-6 damage on something is extremely valuable (Basilisks are great at this). Yes I know the math says the Vanq. is terrible, but it IS consistent (when fired by Pask) where the Battle Cannon is totally unreliable. I'm going to give it a try.

Against T7 /3+ with Pask

1* .84 * .66 *.84 = .46

T8
1* .84 * .50 *.84 = .35

So yeah, when that goes through it will hit like a truck. But you're still looking at only 2-3 times in a whole game. That's if he even lives long enough to fire every turn. Meanwhile, you lose the target flexibility of the BC and pay more points.

Compare this to the Demolisher cannon

2* .84 *.66 *.84 = .93

You are likely to put some damage on a target every time it fires. Shorter range limits target selection though.

RogueApiary wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
You're right, I forgot about ves with Lascannons. When I build a list my elite slots are so congested that I forgot Veterans even existed. That and I can't seem to find a niche for them to fill.

On another note, after playing with both the Basilisk and the Battle Cannon LR I'm starting to think the Vanquisher Cannon is worth a second look. How are Basilisks and LRBTs related to the Vanquisher? The Basilisk's highest of 2d6 shots usually nets me 4-6 shots. If this held true with the Vanquisher's damage roll, I would consistently be landing 4-6 damage. Very seldom do my battle cannons put 4-6 damage on anything and my experience is that being able to reliably put 4-6 damage on something is extremely valuable (Basilisks are great at this). Yes I know the math says the Vanq. is terrible, but it IS consistent (when fired by Pask) where the Battle Cannon is totally unreliable. I'm going to give it a try.

Against T7 /3+ with Pask

1* .84 * .66 *.84 = .46

T8
1* .84 * .50 *.84 = .35

So yeah, when that goes through it will hit like a truck. But you're still looking at only 2-3 times in a whole game. That's if he even lives long enough to fire every turn. Meanwhile, you lose the target flexibility of the BC and pay more points.

Compare this to the Demolisher cannon

2* .84 *.66 *.84 = .93

You are likely to put some damage on a target every time it fires. Shorter range limits target selection though.

If you're going to use the vanquisher, you've got to use the co-axil heavy stubber version from FW. Re-roll to hit if you fire the stubbed at it (also note you don't need to hit with the heavy stubbed RAW, unlike 7e).

What do people think of the Hydra? I am worried about fliers, and really want a definitive answer. Hydra doesn't seem to output much damage when I'm math hammering it... about 4 damage per turn against a 3+ 7t flier. Am I missing something with them?

Unfortunately you are - it's only around 2 damage me turn against those targets if they have 'hard to hit'

The hydra is an autoinclude for me. I've succesfully grounded a dakka jet last time - in the first round. So give it a try next time if you are expecting light air trouble.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
You're right, I forgot about ves with Lascannons. When I build a list my elite slots are so congested that I forgot Veterans even existed. That and I can't seem to find a niche for them to fill.

On another note, after playing with both the Basilisk and the Battle Cannon LR I'm starting to think the Vanquisher Cannon is worth a second look. How are Basilisks and LRBTs related to the Vanquisher? The Basilisk's highest of 2d6 shots usually nets me 4-6 shots. If this held true with the Vanquisher's damage roll, I would consistently be landing 4-6 damage. Very seldom do my battle cannons put 4-6 damage on anything and my experience is that being able to reliably put 4-6 damage on something is extremely valuable (Basilisks are great at this). Yes I know the math says the Vanq. is terrible, but it IS consistent (when fired by Pask) where the Battle Cannon is totally unreliable. I'm going to give it a try.

Even with Pask, the reliability is questionable. You hit more often, but you will still only wound on 4's or 3's depending on target. Armour saves are usually only on 6's, and your damage roll will usually be 4 or better. But you're still not actually killing an enemy tank unless you're lucky with the lascannon or other weapons as well, and with the inconsistency, you'll want to target every weapon on the same enemy.

The problem with the Vanquisher is not really helped by investing even more into a better carrier. You hit 5/6 instead of 3/6 times, but you still only wound 2/3 of 1/2 times. So the chance of causing a wound goes from 21-28% of the cases to 35-46%, assuming 3+ armour. But you're still inflicting your wounds less than half of the time, and can't really expect to kill more than one tank in a game with your Vanquisher (2-3 unsaved wounds per game, ~4-5 damage per unsaved wound, and heavy tanks have more than 10). With a vanquisher cannon and a lascannon, Pask costs 222 points. Adding multi-meltas, 262 or plasma cannons, 252. You're building a very expensive AT-vehicle that isn't actually that good at killing tanks, and while you can expect to make your points back during 6 turns given enough targets, Pask is basically the biggest threat you have unless you run superheavies and any opponent will likely try to neuter him.

The problem with the vanquisher is just that it's a very unreliable weapon that misses often and does nothing on normal tanks, and it also has a decent chance of not wounding due to its S8. So it does not matter if it deals a lot of damage if it has a hard time actually hitting or wounding, and a lascannon is probably just more effective against T8 because it wounds more often. Basilisks are probably better because you can get 2 of them for about the same price. and Earthshakers even more so.

I am just trying really hard to justify including the Vanq. because I like how the tank looks and what it is conceptually. I really hope they at least make it STR9 in the codex. It's even more expensive than the battle cannon to add insult to injury.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I am just trying really hard to justify including the Vanq. because I like how the tank looks and what it is conceptually. I really hope they at least make it STR9 in the codex. It's even more expensive than the battle cannon to add insult to injury.

If they gave it Str9 it would suddenly be a lot more attractive, I think. I don't know what they were thinking when they designed this. I think it makes sense for the vanquisher to be S9 and maybe even AP-3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Vanquisher was great in 3rd, but has never been the same since. They need to go back to the drawing board with it.

In all honesty, giving it S9 without increasing its cost shouldn't warrant any complaint. A lascannon is 20 points and the only thing a S9 vanquisher would have over it is the 2d6 pick highest for damage as well as the range. This comes out to ~28% more expected damage on an unsaved wound for 25% more cost at 24" longer max distance, which given that it's a LR main gun, could be considered pretty balanced.

Of course, it probably won't do much to alleviate the main issues with having a single Heavy 1 shot but it's something at least.

Hm see theres the thing: the Battlecannon has D6 shots, adding another randoming factor that will probably need a command roll or two during the battle. Even Pask with his mighty BS2+ will suffer from a roll of a 1 for the amount of shots.

The there is ap-2 vs ap-3. Often ap-2 turns the enemys save into a 5+. This means that the might use a command reroll on the save.
But the ap-3 turns it into a 6+ save, no-one in their right mind is gonna spend a command point rerolling that.

And lastly, correct me if im wrong, but im sure the average of 2d6 discard the lowest is +-5. You have 75% chance to get at least a 4+.

Feels like it's a dumb question but that's never stopped me before:

The Vox, can they daisy chain? Commander relays order through his command squad to infantry squad A that's nearby, which relays it to infantry squad B thats near A, but not in range of the command squad. Or is it just straight "this vox can only talk to one vox at a time, because no one likes talking to each other in the AM"

Doctoralex wrote:
Hm see theres the thing: the Battlecannon has D6 shots, adding another randoming factor that will probably need a command roll or two during the battle. Even Pask with his mighty BS2+ will suffer from a roll of a 1 for the amount of shots.

The there is ap-2 vs ap-3. Often ap-2 turns the enemys save into a 5+. This means that the might use a command reroll on the save.
But the ap-3 turns it into a 6+ save, no-one in their right mind is gonna spend a command point rerolling that.

And lastly, correct me if im wrong, but im sure the average of 2d6 discard the lowest is +-5. You have 75% chance to get at least a 4+.

- The game is built on randoming factors, but a battle cannon will usually perform close to average whereas a vanquisher either does nothing or does a lot.
- Forcing a command re-roll isn't always terrible, and your opponent will usually have fewer than you. Spending it will also disallow other use of it and that might help you in the long run.
- 2d6 pick highest is 4.47, so right between 4 and 5. But even with that 2d6 p.h, you're usually not doing much with that shot, as most tanks only loses characteristics when losing 6 wounds or more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doc1234 wrote:
Feels like it's a dumb question but that's never stopped me before:

The Vox, can they daisy chain? Commander relays order through his command squad to infantry squad A that's nearby, which relays it to infantry squad B thats near A, but not in range of the command squad. Or is it just straight "this vox can only talk to one vox at a time, because no one likes talking to each other in the AM"

You extend the range of the order to 18" if the target also contains a vox. So no chaining.

I.e. you have an officer with a vox nearby. You can order units without voxes within 6", and units with voxes that are within 18".

Doctoralex wrote:
Hm see theres the thing: the Battlecannon has D6 shots, adding another randoming factor that will probably need a command roll or two during the battle. Even Pask with his mighty BS2+ will suffer from a roll of a 1 for the amount of shots.

The there is ap-2 vs ap-3. Often ap-2 turns the enemys save into a 5+. This means that the might use a command reroll on the save.
But the ap-3 turns it into a 6+ save, no-one in their right mind is gonna spend a command point rerolling that.

And lastly, correct me if im wrong, but im sure the average of 2d6 discard the lowest is +-5. You have 75% chance to get at least a 4+.

Yes I agree with you and that has been my experience. Command Points are almost pointless to use on the BC because there are so many random stages to go through; you can re-roll your D6 shots but then you can't re-roll wounds or, more importantly, your damage result, and even if you could re-rolling 1 d3 is pretty unattractive. Rolling a 1 for BC shots on Pask is horrible, really anything below a 4 feels horrible, and it happens 50% of the time. The AP-2 VS -3 is also a big deal because the BC usually only squeaks 1-2 wounds onto a target and having a 4+ or 5+ vs those wounds usually reduces it to 1, which is then only 3 damage max. Pask with a Vanq. on the other hand will hit 5/6 shots, can CP re-roll his wound roll if need be, and then has another built in re-roll for damage. That's a pretty reliable 5-6 wounds on T7 (the majority of vehicles and against which the STR 8 is just as good as STR 9) and even T8 with a re-roll. In my experience the BC, even on Pask, seldom does damage like that to high T targets, and I'm finding the only thing that can make me struggle as Guard is enough high T targets.

I do realy like the vanquisher, despite it is dissapointing. What do you think of the marcharius vanquisher? It haven't been a good point investment in 7th edition. Haven't tried it yet in 8th...

Vanquisher cannons should be the difinitive answer to T8 3+ sv vehicles and monsters, which means it should be at least S9 with AP-3 plus its 2d6 pick the highest damage. Right now it is a cool concept with mediocre rules. There is no doubt that you will have some moments of success with it. But simply put, it isfar less than it could and should be.

I mean, if they really want to emphasize it as the premier AT russ weapon, especially compared to the Annihilator Russ, it should gain a +1 to hit against Vehicles and Monsters on top of being S9, similar to how hydras get +1 to hit against units with Fly. Hell, give it a -1 to hit against infantry if you want a downside (it won't be aiming at them anyways).