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 More Dakka wrote:
Anyone think running a Battalion Det is worth it right now?

Spoiler:

I can comfortably fit the following with about 150 pts to spare:

Battalion

HQ
Company Cmdr
Company Cmdr
Tempestor Prime

Troops
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad

Elites
MT Cmd Squad w/ 4x plasma
Commissar
MoO/Harker

FA
Hellhound
Scout Sent
Scout Sent

HS
Manticore
Manticore
Manticore

Spearhead Detachment

Tank Cmder (room for pask)
LRBT
HBs and LC

LRBT
HBs and LC

LRBT
HBs and LC

LRBT
HBs and LC

Again, lots of points to beef things up, considering Plasma now since the rules got a LOT better even without the re-roll 1's

Question is are the Strategems in the book worthy of stretching to 13 CPs?

I would be tempted to put the Scions in a patrol detachment, so you get their doctrine bonuses. Make the Command Squad a basic troop, add some ratlings or something. Seems like a small change to get the buffs.

Yeah there's points to do that, question though is if I'm going to find enough to do with 13 points, when for a Battalion I could mech up my infantry squads and still squeeze 8 CPs out of 2K

 Trickstick wrote:
Do Orgyn bodyguards work on tanks? Would need to see the wording but seems weird if they do. Personally I would go the techpriest route as it seems fluffier. I'd probably have them ride a trojan or have an atlas nearby, although that depends on how FW goes about updating their stuff. After the joy that was the IA index release, I am not expecting great things.

RAW says "any astra miltarum Character" from the screenshots of the Ogryn Bodyguard page fromthe Codex. No mention disqualifying character vehicles. The Enginseer would be fluffier but seeing as the ogryn bodyguard allows Pask to turn what could be a D1-6 wounds into only D1 against the Ogryn SIX TIMES!! the enginseer can't compete (reparing on average 1.5 wounds per turn) I might throw one of my astropaths into the cage of steel so Pask starts with a 1+ armour save and allows the cage to ignore the cover saves of one unit.

This deathstar comes in at 732 Pts (including the astropath and company commander who technically are from my TM and catachan detachments respectively) I'd probably give the warlord the Kurov's Aquila as he's the safest man in the galaxy but haven't factored in its points cost. The detachment get all the Cadian tank rules, +1CP and the two LRBTs get defenders of humaity.

My main point though is that Pask would get 49 1+ hits using the Cadian Strategem "Overlapping Fields of Fire"!!! If anyone is in need of a bodyguard its the character that can do that.

 More Dakka wrote:
Yeah there's points to do that, question though is if I'm going to find enough to do with 13 points, when for a Battalion I could mech up my infantry squads and still squeeze 8 CPs out of 2K

There is a stratagem for +1 save, and another one for healing vehicles. You would need like 20-30 points to get in the realms of not being able to use them all. Seriously, the amount of Stratagems you can use means that you want as many CP as possible, there are never "enough".

Does anyone have experience with a macarius vulcan in 8th? I wonder if I should buy one from a friend.

 combatcotton wrote:
Does anyone have experience with a macarius vulcan in 8th? I wonder if I should buy one from a friend.

It depends on how much you want to invest in it. Superheavies aren't very good this edition (I routinely get my Baneblades alpha-struck off the board) though with the new Codex buffs I think they went too far the other way. Sadly the Macharius Vulcan lacks the codex buffs.

That said, if you're willing to put the energy and points into supporting it adequately, it can become a terror on the battlefield. It's firepower is phenomenal, both in overwatch and in the shooting phase.

Specific Super Heavies are amazing because they do what this edition is all about. Getting as many weapons on a single chassis and then buffing the hell out of that chassis.

However the problem is that: Most super competative armies have too many units and too many models that they just cant chew through them fast enough. Combined with everything having a chance to hurt everything they can be wittled down.

I think AM will be very powerful but infantry AM will run into the fact that people have been tooling for conscript and brim spam(so will be designed to take down a gak ton of models in one turn) as well as people also taking lots of things(mortal wounds) that ignore a lot of toughness and durability that IG is paying for.

Basically I think IG, as with most lists will do consistently the best if they take a hybrid approach, maybe one detachment dedicated towards infantry and another for heavy as an example. And just takes a lot of practice.

Although a lot depends on the wording of combined squads because that gak could get crazy REALLY quickly.

 Leth wrote:
Although a lot depends on the wording of combined squads because that gak could get crazy REALLY quickly.

I don't see combining being too powerful, although you are right that the actual wording could open up powerful combos. We know it only works on basic infantry squads and that it costs 1cp. Also, as it is a stratagem so you can't do it more than once in a single phase. Now, I am going to assume it has wording like "at the end of the movement phase" or "in the movement phase" or something, meaning you can only use it once per turn. I know that is a big assumption but a reasonable one I think. It really does seem to be best used to stop yourself losing kill points. I can see people doing it first turn to get a 20man squad for a nice buff. Are you going to do it 5+ times in a game though? Maybe if it is kill points but there are other things to spend points on that are really good, like +1 saves.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Although a lot depends on the wording of combined squads because that gak could get crazy REALLY quickly.

I don't see combining being too powerful, although you are right that the actual wording could open up powerful combos. We know it only works on basic infantry squads and that it costs 1cp. Also, as it is a stratagem so you can't do it more than once in a single phase. Now, I am going to assume it has wording like "at the end of the movement phase" or "in the movement phase" or something, meaning you can only use it once per turn. I know that is a big assumption but a reasonable one I think. It really does seem to be best used to stop yourself losing kill points. I can see people doing it first turn to get a 20man squad for a nice buff. Are you going to do it 5+ times in a game though? Maybe if it is kill points but there are other things to spend points on that are really good, like +1 saves.

My current plan is to run infantry squads in pairs. One with heavy weapon and one without, then combine them once they wound the heavy weapon holding one. Plenty of times I'll have squads with just a lascannon or plasma gunner left. This would let them stick around yet another turn unless they devote additional firepower.

So, 9 maul/brute shield Bullgryns with a Primaris Psyker with his +1 save power comes in at 355 points (if the Bullgryn point drop to 35ppm with maul is correct), who can get a cool 3++ that can be buffed to 2++ during enemy shooting. With 37 S7 AP-1 attacks on the charge. That's one hell of a beatstick, and it's mono-IG.

Throw in Baneblades with their adamantium tracks with Crush Them!, and possibly Rough/DKoK Riders and IG can become a melee powerhouse. The future is now.

RogueApiary wrote:
My current plan is to run infantry squads in pairs. One with heavy weapon and one without, then combine them once they wound the heavy weapon holding one. Plenty of times I'll have squads with just a lascannon or plasma gunner left. This would let them stick around yet another turn unless they devote additional firepower.

Seems kind of weird that you wouldn't take the extra weapons but I guess it could work.

After reading some more Tallarn (I'm really feeling the Armoured Tallarn army) I noticed that I had been thinking of their stratagem as like the old outflank that Al'rahem had. However, It doesn't actually say that it has to be the flank. I guess the real wording could be different, but the idea of bringing forces on the opponent's board edge seems fun. Seems like a perfect job for melta devildogs. The 9" restriction puts them within supermelta range and the Tallarn doctrine removes the -1 to hit. Not such a waste as using flamers, which don't benefit from the Tallarn Doctrine.

Honestly, I can't see ever using combined squads except in a rare situation when all but my special weapon gets knocked out of an infantry squad and they somehow don't die from leadership.

I've seen it happen before, but I'm not expecting it often. I guess it would also let you create mini-conscript squads, but if you're going to do that, why not just take conscripts?

I agree with you Trickstick. I even tried to run Tallarn doctrine on my superheavies last game I played, though the enemy got first turn and ended up pinning them in my DZ anyways.

The tallarn doctrine is pretty neat though, especially for not-superheavy armoured formations.

How about Pask, a squad of Demo leman russes, and a super heavy as all tallaran.

Can pask be a tallaran? Otherwise just a tank commander.

3 leman russes and a super heavy stay in reserves. (Since they would be target #1.)

Deep strike in. All leman russes fire twice, tank orders to re-roll the number of shots the demo tanks get. Shadowsword or something also takes out the heavy hitters. Then "Crush them". Advance and charge hitting on 2's.

Holy heck does this look amazing.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I agree with you Trickstick. I even tried to run Tallarn doctrine on my superheavies last game I played, though the enemy got first turn and ended up pinning them in my DZ anyways.

The tallarn doctrine is pretty neat though, especially for not-superheavy armoured formations.

I thought Super-Heavies, specifically don't receive Doctrine benefits?

 Trickstick wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Although a lot depends on the wording of combined squads because that gak could get crazy REALLY quickly.

I don't see combining being too powerful, although you are right that the actual wording could open up powerful combos. We know it only works on basic infantry squads and that it costs 1cp. Also, as it is a stratagem so you can't do it more than once in a single phase. Now, I am going to assume it has wording like "at the end of the movement phase" or "in the movement phase" or something, meaning you can only use it once per turn. I know that is a big assumption but a reasonable one I think. It really does seem to be best used to stop yourself losing kill points. I can see people doing it first turn to get a 20man squad for a nice buff. Are you going to do it 5+ times in a game though? Maybe if it is kill points but there are other things to spend points on that are really good, like +1 saves.

Between the ease of getting a battalion (or brigade? The big one) and other detachments and the ability to make points back on a 5 and get points from the enemy on a five, having an effective 15 or more CPs is easy.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I agree with you Trickstick. I even tried to run Tallarn doctrine on my superheavies last game I played, though the enemy got first turn and ended up pinning them in my DZ anyways.

The tallarn doctrine is pretty neat though, especially for not-superheavy armoured formations.

I thought Super-Heavies, specifically don't receive Doctrine benefits?

I've seen a ton of different versions of that rumor floating around, and would like to see it cited.

It is worth noting that the Tallarn doctrine specifically gives Titanic units a different bonus than it gives other units - meaning that somewhere in the codex, there exists a Titanic unit that's not a superheavy, or doctrines apply to superheavies.

 rhinoceraids wrote:
How about Pask, a squad of Demo leman russes, and a super heavy as all tallaran.

Can pask be a tallaran? Otherwise just a tank commander.

3 leman russes and a super heavy stay in reserves. (Since they would be target #1.)

Deep strike in. All leman russes fire twice, tank orders to re-roll the number of shots the demo tanks get. Shadowsword or something also takes out the heavy hitters. Then "Crush them". Advance and charge hitting on 2's.

Holy heck does this look amazing.

Pask is specifically locked into the Cadian regiment keyword. Similar for other named characters.

Okay. well a tallaran tank commander, squad of demo leman russes and a super heavy deep strike in.

Guard don't go first? Who cares! All that will be on the field is infantry and maybe some long range artillery!

I just see this as a way to protect vehicles from turn 1 lascannon destruction.

 rhinoceraids wrote:
How about Pask, a squad of Demo leman russes, and a super heavy as all tallaran.

Can pask be a tallaran? Otherwise just a tank commander.

3 leman russes and a super heavy stay in reserves. (Since they would be target #1.)

Deep strike in. All leman russes fire twice, tank orders to re-roll the number of shots the demo tanks get. Shadowsword or something also takes out the heavy hitters. Then "Crush them". Advance and charge hitting on 2's.

Holy heck does this look amazing.

Pask can't be Tallarn, he is Cadian. Also, whilst you can take a squadron of Russes, in the current rules they split into separate units when deployed. As you can only use the same stratagem once per turn, only one of them could use Crush Them. You can't use the Cadian order on Tallarns either.

A powerful idea but not quite to the levels you are thinking. Still fun though.

stratigo wrote:
Between the ease of getting a battalion (or brigade? The big one) and other detachments and the ability to make points back on a 5 and get points from the enemy on a five, having an effective 15 or more CPs is easy.

Am I the only one that thinks Guard will blow through 15cp in no time? I'm probably going to be using 3 before the game even starts to outflank, as well as use the +1 save pretty much every turn. Then you have tank heals, extra relics, inspired tactics, vengeance for Cadia and the generic rerolls. You could spend all your points in two turns easily if you are not careful.

 Trickstick wrote:

 rhinoceraids wrote:
How about Pask, a squad of Demo leman russes, and a super heavy as all tallaran.

Can pask be a tallaran? Otherwise just a tank commander.

3 leman russes and a super heavy stay in reserves. (Since they would be target #1.)

Deep strike in. All leman russes fire twice, tank orders to re-roll the number of shots the demo tanks get. Shadowsword or something also takes out the heavy hitters. Then "Crush them". Advance and charge hitting on 2's.

Holy heck does this look amazing.

Pask can't be Tallarn, he is Cadian. Also, whilst you can take a squadron of Russes, in the current rules they split into separate units when deployed. As you can only use the same stratagem once per turn, only one of them could use Crush Them. You can't use the Cadian order on Tallarns either.

A powerful idea but not quite to the levels you are thinking. Still fun though.

stratigo wrote:
Between the ease of getting a battalion (or brigade? The big one) and other detachments and the ability to make points back on a 5 and get points from the enemy on a five, having an effective 15 or more CPs is easy.

Am I the only one that thinks Guard will blow through 15cp in no time? I'm probably going to be using 3 before the game even starts to outflank, as well as use the +1 save pretty much every turn. Then you have tank heals, extra relics, inspired tactics, vengeance for Cadia and the generic rerolls. You could spend all your points in two turns easily if you are not careful.

Yeah, but Tallaran Tank commander, squad of demo russes, and a tallaran super heavy. All deep striking. Super heavy gets to charge in. And the tank orders can be used to retreat them 6" back or forward or whatever.

That seems to work yeah?

Just as a way to protect your heavy hitters and get a chance to take theirs out asap.

I mean do we know its just 1 to 1? is it per phase or at the beginning of the game?

Things like that. What if we can make thirty man squads right from the beginning for 1 CP. So on and so forth.

I thought we caught enough of the text to see it was pretty obviously 1:1, but I might be misremembering.

I suppose they could have a separate, as yet unrevealed rule stating that you could combine squads at game start for free and then also commit CP to combine them after the fact as well, similar to how GK can combat squad and then they can also use that strategem to split at game time.

I'm guessing they won't do that though, otherwise you could have a 100 man strong squad at turn one.

Razerous wrote:

 Stus67 wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Can you field multiple detachments in a single Battle forged army.

One spearhead detachment (as Keyword >Cadians< and another Battalion detachment (as Keyword >Catachans<... as a random example.

I.e. can you mix detachments from different regiments? Not mixing regiments within the detachments, i would assume.

As long as each detachment is made up entirely of units from the same regiments then yes.

Cadian Battalion
Tallarn Battlation
Catachan Spearhead

Is a list format I'm thinking about running. Cadian gunline conscripts and heavy weapons/tanks, Tallarn infantry w/ Scions, and Catachan artillery.

Exactly my thoughts.

But why Tallarn scions? Cool counts as Tanith elite troopers?

I don't know really. I don't have any strong feelings towards the Tempestus regimental stuff and while re-rolling failed wounds against vehicles and extra shots on 6+s is nice they typically don't really need it. I think I need to play around with them more first, but I figure having Tallarn veterans outflanking from the board edge and having a squad or two of Scions would do fine.

How about naked Scion squads, keep them cheap and purely for board control.

What stratagem gives +1 to armour saves?

CaptainO wrote:
What stratagem gives +1 to armour saves?

Take Cover!: 1 CP, grants one of your units +1 to their saving throws. The unit is chosen in your opponent’s shooting phase after they have nominated that unit as a target.

So it seems fairly clear that tanks got a much needed buff and that Guard has tons and tons of strategic options to choose from.

I'm curious about people's thoughts on Conscripts. I used them a lot at my local club and they did make my list really competitive, especially with FRFSRF. Now that blobs can only be 30 strong max, and orders don't go off automatically, do people think that they're not as viable as before? Maybe armor and artillery are better things to focus on?

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
So it seems fairly clear that tanks got a much needed buff and that Guard has tons and tons of strategic options to choose from.

I'm curious about people's thoughts on Conscripts. I used them a lot at my local club and they did make my list really competitive, especially with FRFSRF. Now that blobs can only be 30 strong max, and orders don't go off automatically, do people think that they're not as viable as before? Maybe armor and artillery are better things to focus on?

You are still going to want something that stops the enemy from locking your vehicles in CC, and also something that can move forward to compete for objectives. Conscripts seem likely to remain the best choice for that role across all Imperium armies, but it's not like Infantry are bad at this. Bullgryn also might work now.

yea I figured that basically meat shields is where they're going to be most useful. The nice thing is that the new rules have plenty of play styles now whereas before things were a little less varied.