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I'm not modelling any weapon choices that doesn't already have a miniature in current production. Don't want to have to snap the things off next edition when we lose them again.

Also, I've got plasma pistols and power swords in my infantry.

I have boltguns on all my SGTs in squads with heavy weapons. My assaulty squads keep the las pistol and chainsword. But now I'm thinking I'll make a couple SGTs with power axes since Catachans are S4.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
...SGTs with power axes since Catachans are S4.

Don't forget, power axes aren't in the codex. You can still grandfather in from the codex but something to consider.

I run bolters on most of my sargeants, I like having a standard range for all my guardsmen and laspistols never do anything of note anyways. Considering I run infantry, and the cost of all my bolters usually adds up to maybe a melta gun, I see it as no real loss.

Youre not even losing melee attacks anymore, as the extra attack is with the chainsword and it can be taken with a bolter for free, meaning you get close combat ability and an actual rifle type weapon to boot. With an infantry horde army, youre never really short on points and Id rather have those bolters than say 3 more conscripts for example.

Its probably not worth the point for competitive play but Ive never written a list where I could point to the 10 or so points I spent on bolters and say that it impacted me being able to take something useful instead.

Aside from plasma pistols of course, those are pretty great for only 5pts. They just add up pretty fast.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
...SGTs with power axes since Catachans are S4.

Don't forget, power axes aren't in the codex. You can still grandfather in from the codex but something to consider.

I just pay with the index points, right? I read the FAQ on mixing and matching. I am pretty sure they're still ok to use, same with the dudes I modeled power mauls on.

A primer on Regiments

When selecting a regiment, you have to consider a lot of factors. For purely competitive game-play, a few strong archetypes emerged quickly based on the most obvious strengths (catachan blasts, cadian gunlines, and Tallarn ambushers), but how do the various regiments really compare for casual or less competitive players?

The first thing to remember is that each regiment has five different rules: the doctrine, the strategem, the order, the relic, and the warlord trait. Two regiments have special characters as well. Militarum Tempestus do have regimental rules, but they only apply to Scions and Tauroxes, so aren't really discussed here.

Doctrines are generally the biggest deal. These apply passively to all infantry and vehicles, and so scale with your force and do not take any additional resources. Even things like the catachan leadership buff, which requires an officer, are really just a buff for officers to give +1 leadership. In 2000 point list, your doctrine is more likely to shape your list than anything else regiments offer.

Orders can scale, but they cost resources. Meaning, if you like an order, you can have as much of that as you like, you just need to have enough officers, which means points. So, while you can consider orders in the selection of your regiment... none of them are good enough to really switch over.

Strategems are capped at one of each per phase and cost CPs, but the IG can load up on CPs, making relying on them a viable strategy. These range from borderline garbage to amazing. Some of the better ones are worth picking a regiment over.

Relics are soft capped at one, but you can buy up to two more with CPs. Most relics are combat related, making them nice but not amazing. And even if you want to get into combat, the blade of conquest is just as good a pick as most of them. Cadia is the big exception here, of course.

Warlord traits are the most limited, with only one per army. All but two are linked to combat, and all conflict with Grand Strategist, which is arguably the best trait for the IG.

finally, only two regiments even have special characters. Of the five, four are worth building armies around.

In my opinion, GW did not even try to internally balance the choices. Luckily, the ranges for which models are most available, Cadian and Catachans, have the most options and the strongest benefits, but it's frustrating seeing the same regiments enjoying the best options in every category. That said, let's talk about the rules.

Doctrines:

The biggest game changer here is probably the Catachan doctrine. Rerolling a die for each blast weapon on a vehicle has a huge effect on the number of shots. d6 weapons go from 3.5 shots to 4.2, while 2d6 weapons jump from 7 to 8.25 shots. Even basilisks go from 4.47 to 4.97 shots. Simple math says that more shots equals more damage. Blast weapons are generally powerful, and got better with the codex: basilisk, LRBTs, and hellhounds all got better, and some got cheaper. Catachans get the nod for best doctrine for two reasons: one, there quite a few ways to get rerolls of ones, but only two ways to reroll blast dice, and two, this doctrine works fine regadless of how you play: you can move, you can be static, and you don't need an officer to get the most out of it. It's pure, simple power. The infantry side is fun but not game changing, with +1S across the board and +1 leadership when near an officer. I file this under "occasionally nice," but we will no doubt see people trying to make Straken melee Catachans a thing. Any rule that sparks creativity is a good one. If nothing else, S4 makes buying those 4pt power swords even more tempting.

Slotting in next is the Tallarn doctrine, which allows vehicles to shot heavy weapons without penalty, and infantry to advance and shoot anything but heavies without penalty. Let's unpack this. Now, all those hull and sponson weapons fire at full effect. Banewolf multi-meltas, LRBT heavy bolters, lascannons, or multi-meltas, even Taurox autocannons can now move and shoot. This is bigger than you think, because it means there's no reason not to bolt on all the heavy weapons you can. Leman Russ punishers with a lascannon and two heavy bolters can move 5", and have 46 S5 shots and a lacannon. They dont' move fast, mind you, but fast enough to put pressure on the enemy if you think ahead. The infantry also enjoy not needing transports, and can move 6+d6" inches a turn while shooting plasma love.

The cadian doctrine offers a simple choice: give up moving to aim. Re-rolling ones for static units is a pretty good benefit, since it effects any weapon that rolls to hit. Certain weapon systems love this, especially plasma, whcih can now overcharge with impunity. For infantry, this doctrine also buffs the order "Take Aim" to true twinlinked, making heavy weapon teams very deadly. Boring, but brutally effective.

Valhallan don't suffer as much when taking damage, either in morale or from degradation. I like the idea behind this rule, but I hate the execution. It's fiddly, in that you halve losses from morale but double your wounds to see degradation. It forces the enemy to put a few more wounds on a vehicle to knock it out, which helps. For morale, it makes infantry squads not really care all that much about morale. At Ld 8, even with a six for morale you have only one model flee for every wound after the second. Now you can lose six men to shooting, roll a six, and only lose two more models. Beyond that, there isn't much to save! Even on conscripts, Valhallans can run 20 man squads wholly unsupported. Okay, so you kill ten, and I roll six for morale. I lose six more, but I still have a small squad left.

Vostroyans are straighforward: +6" range to all heavy and rapid fire weapons with range 24" or more. There aren't a lot of 24" range wepaons that are assault (the melta cannon, I suppose), so this buffs a lot of shorter ranged weapons. Plasma is a big winner here, as are the demolisher cannon, the punisher cannon, conscripts, and even 2pt storm bolters. This doctrine is sneaky, because the stuff it helps the most are some of the best things in the codex. OTOH, i can't help but think that this is worse, overall, than the Tallarn ability to move further without penalty. Still, part of me wants to play a Spearhead of Vostroyan Demolishers.

Steel Legion switches back to fiddly. Being able to rapid fire further away while tanks turn AP1 into Ap- is nice, but seems to overlook that transports no longer fear autocannons anyway. Shooting a chimera with a lascannon is a very good idea in 8th edition. I can't remember how often an AP1 weapon has put wounds on a vehicle, but I'd bet you lunch it wasn't a lot. I guess this means you'll get a few more plasma shots per game, and a lot more lasgun shots. Meh.

Finally, Mordians. Ugh. +1 to hit in overwatch is probably the weakest buff of them all, and it comes with the requirement to be in base to base. Sure, that's not exactly a penalty, but it's annoying that a weak buff comes with strings. Vechicles get +1 to overwatch if within 3" of another vehicle, which is just sad and dumb. Poor, poor Mordians. In a lot of games of 8th edition, I might only overwatch a few times, and rarely does it matter. You could overwatch at full effect with most squads and not really change things.

Orders

The winner is Tallarn, who can order tanks to move 6" before or after it shoots, and it explicitly doesn't effect Grinding Advance. that's a great order. Allows for raw movement, grabbing cover or staying out of LOS, and even allows tanks that deployed that turn to move closer... All in all, this order is a big bonus for Tallarn.

Next is cadia, which allows you to reroll the dice for turret weapons. This is is a nice increase is raw power, especially if the tank shoots twice (hint: it should). With Pask and this order, Cadians can build a nice armored force.

Things trail off, so next up is probably Mordian, which allows all rapid fire weapons to target characters. When this helps, it will help big. Especially good against assassin spam!

Steel legion allows a unit that shot to immediately embark on a transport within 3", but not if it disembarked this turn. Huh. It doesnt' really give more protection to the squad, but it does allow them to shoot and embark in a turn, which they otherwise couldn't. Dumb question: how often do squads actually get INTO a transport in 8th? This is probably a pass, but it does open up an option.

Valhallans and Vostroyans allow squads to shoot into or out of combat, respectively. Whatever. We have get back in the fight, guys. At least with valhallans, you can do fun stuff like tie them up with conscripts, who can still fight, and then shoot into the combat with another squad. Still though... will one squads shooting tip the balance?

I want to like the Catachan order, which gives rerolls to determining flamer hits. It also causes any squad hit by said flamers to lose cover for the phase. for the latter, fi you can get an officer within 14" of the enemy, you can get an astropath there, and deny them cover in an easier way. Rerolling flamers is nice against orks and stuff, but against anything else, you'd be better off with plasmas and take aim. (Or honestly, all lasguns and FRF!SRF!, which adds 19 lasgun shots at close range). Its' cool, and thematic, and in a veteran squad it will add a lot of hits, but given that it takes a dedicated package for this to work (squad with lots of flamers, officer, and delivery mechanism) I think it's an ill fated order.

Strategems

Tallarn have a great one with Ambush. Pricey at 3CP, it allows you to deepstrike any three units within 7" of a table edge. This includes LRBTs, veterans, all kinds of crazy stuff. Superheavies likely cannot deploy fully within 7", everything else can really open up. This utterly changes how the Tallarn play. You can go subtle and ambush three veteran squads with plasma (or two and an officer) or you can ambush a punisher with multi-meltas. While not necessary in every game, this can really allow you to put the pressure on the enemy early, and against nimble enemies, allows you to level the playing field.

Cadia is another big winner here. For 2cp, after you wound a unit, everything else cadian is +1 to hit it. This is huge, and allows you to just whale on knights, primarchs, and even just big old squads. Not only does this make me want to play cadians, it makes me want to include only cadians in my army.

The valhallans get a nice one. For 2CP, you get to redeploy a destroyed infantry squad (no characters or combined squads) within 6" of your table edge and more than 9" from the enemy. That plasma veteran squad you suicided on turn 2? I can reappear, and shoot up the enemy in your back field. If you pulled a refused flank, this allows you to protect yourself against line breaker. It's a rule that does two things: brings a unit back, and allows you to deep strike it. Just fantastic. One huge caveat: there is an argument if you need to pay for this squad as a reinforcement. If you do, this essentially is worthless. If not... you can really drown your enemy in bodies.

Vostroyans get a simple but powerful strategem: for one CP the unit gets +1 to hit. Superheavies are the clear choice here, to the extent that this strategem and the doctirne are almost enough for me to try to run a Vostroyan Superheavy detachment. Other than that, it's a great spot filler.

Things slow down by the time you get to the Mordians, who get exploding sixes to hit for one CP. Sure, its' a few more shots, but nothing to get excited about for a one shot strategem.

At the bottom are two very niche orders. Steel legion get re-roll ones to hit if they disembarked that turn, while Catachans that were charged while wholly within cover do d3 mortal wounds to the unit on a 4+. Both offer minor benefits under limited circumstances.

Relics

Once again, Cadia takes the cake, with the Relic of Lost Cadia. A 12" aura to re-roll ones to hit or wound is simply amazing, and it effects infantry and vehicles.

After that, they are pretty meh. Valhallans have a bolt pistol that gives the bearer summary execution, so you don't need a commissar. The rest are swords or armor, which while fun, aren't any better than the general purpose options. (the dagger, the aquilla, and the laurels are all top notch, on par with cadia's lost relic)

Warlord Trait

hey, what a surprise, Cadia has a great warlord trait. Officers get another order after giving one on a 4+. It's a little more complicated (it has to be the same order to the same unit type), but in practice, you're going to be giving take aim to as many heavy weapon squads as you can. Offers a lot of synergy with their doctrine, which makes the Take aim order super good. Also can effect their tank order, which is also super good. This is good enough to consider taking instead of Grand Strategist.

For the rest, it's a lot of stuff that makes the warlord better in combat, although the tallarn order does allow the warlord and one other squad to fall back and then charge, which all kinds of situational, but can be good. Still, not much really outweighs the frankly solid array of universal warlord traits. The elephant in the room is always Grand Strategist, which bounces back CPs on a 5+, and gives you one free reroll. Even beyond that, most of hte general ones are better than the regiment specific, making them not a huge factor in choosing your regiment.

Special Characters

So, Cadia has three, but two are linked. Pask is the ultimate tank commander, and is stupidly cheap for what he does. BS 2+, and two tank orders, make him a wicked damage dealer and a buff to the army. What he doesn't have is any way to be more durable, so he's going to have a huge target on him from turn one. Creed brings a lot to the table, and can anchor a firebase while providing two CPs, at the cost of grand strategist. Kell gives a morale re-roll, an extra order to an officer, and he can tank wounds for Creed. Kell is nice but inefficient, but the other two characters are fantastic. You will rarely see a cadian army without Pask.

The Catachans have two characters. First is straken, the punchiest, meanest, most durable character in the book (possibly bar yarrick). He gives +1 attack to Catachans within 6", and is combat monster. Well, he's really good at combat until you roll armor, where he's only AP-1. I think he's really fun, but guard are simply too squishy to make an assault army work, and he's too pricey to work for counter assault. I like the idea of him ranging behind a firebase full of infantry squads with power weapons, but 8th edition still is all about shooting, and IG get outshot more than we get out assaulted. Harker is unchanged, giving a re-roll ones to hit aura. He remains simply excellent, as he works with any catachan unit. The ability to run him alongside any aspect of your army with a passive buff makes him as close to an autoinclude as exists in 40k.

Bringing it all together

Steel Legion is probably overall the weakest. Nothing very effective, a lot of conditions and prerequisites, and usually the worst of everything. The only reason to even try this one is if you really want to use transports. Build the army around plasma vets jumping out of transports, getting reroll ones to hit with the strategem and re-roll ones to wound with an order, and shake and bake something. You can rapid fire at 18", so you can hopefully stay away from the worst of the enemy shooting, and then volley again the next turn and reembark. It's neat, but finnicky.

Mordians are probably next. While nothing they have is awful, it's mostly niche stuff, and not much really boosts their firepower. This regiment probably has the most wide open play style, although I'd look hard at conscripts to maximize their overwatch.

Valhallans have a couple of nice perks, and don't get morale wiped easily. Their tanks stay punchy even at 4 wounds, and they can bring back infantry units and redeploy them. I think this regiment allows a cunning player to surprise enemies, and might be a dark horse for offbeat players.

Vostroyans have two decent things: extra range by doctrine, and +1 to hit by strategem. The rest is mediocre, to be honest, but this give your army two solid buffs. These buffs work regardless of unit, whether it moved, if it's near an officer, etc. Everything shoots further, and for One CP, one unit a turn gets +1 to hit. Other regiments might give more focused buffs, but I think this regiment gives a rock solid buff. My suggestion: consider using with a superheavy detachment, especially with heavy bolter sponsons. Baneblades can move and shoot without penalty, and +1 to hit is better than rerolling a blast dice, and certainly better than rerolling ones. Yes, it's CP heavy, but vostroyans get a lot out of their super heavies.

Tallarn are very strong, but not in raw power. Instead, they allow for unparalleled mobility. They have top shelf options for doctrine, orders, and strategem, but they gain relatively minor buffs to things like artillery, heavy weapon teams, or superheavies. This list basically writes itself, with lots of russes, infantry with no heavy weapons, and ambush units like veterans. This is the connesuers choice, in that it doesn't make your army better, but it allows you to play the army better.

Catachans have the best doctrine and the best special character, and the rest of their stuff is mediocre to poor. That's still enough to make them a great regiment. Rerolling blasts will shape the way you build your army, but after that you will have a lot of tools in your tool box. Take hellhounds, flamer sentinels, LRBTs with no sponsons, and artillery, and protect it with S4 infantry with cheap power weapons. Add harker for re-rolls where needed, and enjoy the rule called, approrpriately enough, Brute Strength.

So... that means Cadians are the "best" overall regiment. They have a good doctrine, good order, great strategem, great relic, and even a useful warlord trait, all while packing one great and one very good special character. Enjoy watching Pask and Creed fight Goulliman on a thousand worlds. Snark aside, aside from the psychological limitation from moving, Cadia has a lot of nicely layered buffs. They can run tanks just as well as Catachan, they can gunline better than anybody, and with their Strategem they will very accurately shoot one unit a turn.

I hope this helps to compare some of the options available to you. I think that every regiment is worth taking at least in detachment sized packages, although for Steel Legion I'm reaching a bit. Still, i think you can make a solid argument for running five different regiments as the primary detachment even in a competitive environment, and the other two are fine even in casual play, although Steel Legions bonuses are a bit more narrow.

Good write up as usual Polonius. Hope that makes it to your overall guide. It's certainly going to take me a while to absorb.

I have some minor criticisms though:

Mordian Parade Drill also includes a +1 leadership. It gives Infantry total leadership 8, which helps reduce the need for commissars. Lose 5, and you're guaranteed to have the special weapon and the sarge even on a worst case. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Also, the Mordian Volley Fire is a bigger deal that you make it out to be for subtle reasons. It's more than exploding sixes; It lets you flat-out fire the weapon all over again. That's another rapid fire for a plasma gun. Another three shots with a heavy bolter, et cetera. And you get the chance to do it for every time you roll a six. So you could fire that plasma gun an extra four times if you roll initial boxcars, or that heavy bolter an extra nine times. Not something to be counted on, but it's quite a upper bounds. Again, nothing to sneeze at there either.

Anyway, it's definitely not amazing, but I think it's got a lot more going on than you're selling here. Just my two cents.

Now, I need to get back to converting up my mordian plasma assassin squads.

Nice write up Polonius, I did see one thing you covered that I thought worth expanding on though.

The Valhallan order that let's you shoot into combat, I personally think that it is rather powerful. Sure, it only works on infantry but I can see it being really useful against enemy vehicles. Tie them up with some conscripts so that they can't retreat, then fill them full of lascannons. If the lascannons hit your own guys, who cares? Could also be useful against characters, as melee is one time they may actually be closer than other targets and so you can snipe them out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I have a bit of a question. The rules state that you do orders at the beginning of the turn. Does that mean that you have to decide all of your orders before you truly use any of them? I know that you resolve them instantly, but that only gives squads the "change their weapon profile" or "can reroll something" effect, the shooting comes later in the phase. So I need to decide all of my orders at the start before I even shoot anything (except move move move and bayonets of course).

This seems rather an important point with how the orders work. I haven't seen it discussed much, but I guess that is because it was like that in the index (I didn't really play with the index, so didn't pick up on this procedure). It's a major shift from 7th, where you could see the effect of an order before choosing the next. Will take some getting used to.

As a final question, how do people with huge armies keep track of what orders they have activated? I guess it isn't too hard if you keep them broadly similar (take aim on HWSs, frfsrf on infantry etc.).

 daedalus wrote:
Good write up as usual Polonius. Hope that makes it to your overall guide. It's certainly going to take me a while to absorb.

Thanks, I hope to update the guide in the next few weeks. I'll probably start making it an article at this point.

I have some minor criticisms though:

Mordian Parade Drill also includes a +1 leadership. It gives Infantry total leadership 8, which helps reduce the need for commissars. Lose 5, and you're guaranteed to have the special weapon and the sarge even on a worst case. That's nothing to sneeze at.

I agree. Not needing commissars at all outside of conscripts is significant, and worth pointing out. It also makes heavy weapon squads LD8, and thus immune to morale.

Also, the Mordian Volley Fire is a bigger deal that you make it out to be for subtle reasons. It's more than exploding sixes; It lets you flat-out fire the weapon all over again. That's another rapid fire for a plasma gun. Another three shots with a heavy bolter, et cetera. And you get the chance to do it for every time you roll a six. So you could fire that plasma gun an extra four times if you roll initial boxcars, or that heavy bolter an extra nine times. Not something to be counted on, but it's quite a upper bounds. Again, nothing to sneeze at there either.

Damn, that's a big difference. It's basically begging for either plasma vets or a combined squad, but it's a pretty healthy spike in damage output. I'll have to revise my primer with that in there as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:
Nice write up Polonius, I did see one thing you covered that I thought worth expanding on though.

The Valhallan order that let's you shoot into combat, I personally think that it is rather powerful. Sure, it only works on infantry but I can see it being really useful against enemy vehicles. Tie them up with some conscripts so that they can't retreat, then fill them full of lascannons. If the lascannons hit your own guys, who cares? Could also be useful against characters, as melee is one time they may actually be closer than other targets and so you can snipe them out.

Hmm, yes. I don't think it's necessarily a reason to take Valhallans, but I think having a decent order does make them more solidly second tier. I agree with your analysis, and when I get a chance later tonight, I'll revise and repost the primer.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I have a bit of a question. The rules state that you do orders at the beginning of the turn. Does that mean that you have to decide all of your orders before you truly use any of them? I know that you resolve them instantly, but that only gives squads the "change their weapon profile" or "can reroll something" effect, the shooting comes later in the phase. So I need to decide all of my orders at the start before I even shoot anything (except move move move and bayonets of course).

This seems rather an important point with how the orders work. I haven't seen it discussed much, but I guess that is because it was like that in the index (I didn't really play with the index, so didn't pick up on this procedure). It's a major shift from 7th, where you could see the effect of an order before choosing the next. Will take some getting used to.

I've been playing the way you descrbe. You resolve them immediately, so for MoveMoveMove you immediately move, fix bayonets you immediately fight. But for the buffs, i hink you just immediately get the buff, and can then shoot as you see fit.

As a final question, how do people with huge armies keep track of what orders they have activated? I guess it isn't too hard if you keep them broadly similar (take aim on HWSs, frfsrf on infantry etc.).

I haven't thought of anything good, but it'll probably end up being tokens like in war machine.

Another thing to note about the Tallarn ambush stratagem, I believe you can use it more than once because of when you are allowed to use it. It will cost you a ton of command points, but because it is pre-game, and thus exempt from the once per phase restriction, you can use it multiple times to outflank more units if you want.

 Colonel Cross wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
...SGTs with power axes since Catachans are S4.

Don't forget, power axes aren't in the codex. You can still grandfather in from the codex but something to consider.

I just pay with the index points, right? I read the FAQ on mixing and matching. I am pretty sure they're still ok to use, same with the dudes I modeled power mauls on.

Is there a new FAQ specific to this? Otherwise, units that have a datasheet in a current codex, can only be equipped in the way listed in their most recent datasheet.

The FAQ I know of regarding grandfathering in units, only applies to units that do not have a new datasheet in a codex release, such as Chaos Lords on Juggernauts. They had an index entry, but were left out of the CSM codex, but the FAQ says you can field them using the datasheet from the index. If they were listed in the current codex, but with different wargear options, you would have to field them with the most up to date wargear.

So Infantry Squad Sergeants (which I assume you were talking about?) can only take a chainsword or powersword. If you meant veteran sergeants, then you could also take a power fist. Not seeing any options for sergeants to take axes in the new codex. edit: Or power mauls. Seems it is swords or power fists only.

The actual ruling:

"While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.

Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."

Of particular note here is "certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box" - Dreadnoughts got new datasheets in the codex, the difference is that it omitted certain weapons from the index, but otherwise its the same datasheet, so the ruling allows for greater grandfathering thsn you seem to think.

The *real* problem is that the options for power mauls and axes arent on the datasheet at all, they were on the weapon list, and theres no clear ruling on what to do.

chaos0xomega wrote:
The actual ruling:

"While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.

Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."

Of particular note here is "certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box" - Dreadnoughts got new datasheets in the codex, the difference is that it omitted certain weapons from the index, but otherwise its the same datasheet, so the ruling allows for greater grandfathering thsn you seem to think.

The *real* problem is that the options for power mauls and axes arent on the datasheet at all, they were on the weapon list, and theres no clear ruling on what to do.

I stand corrected, that does seem to include all wargear options too... does make things tricky with balancing though. Maybe axes were removed from sergeants because they made sergeants too strong, and so removing them was for balance reasons... but then people can just ignore that and use the old version. Not saying that's what happened, but there is bound to be a case in one of the codex releases where a unit is "balanced" by removing a wargear option, and then this faq entry would allow people to just ignore that. Seems odd.

I mean, if they change command squads from being able to field 4 heavy weapons per squad to 2 heavy weapons, you could still say "well my squad is modelled with 4 heavy weapons, so I'll grandfather in the index datasheet instead". Iffy.

Edit: Actually, as Axes and Mauls were on the weapon list and not the datasheets, then they may well have been removed as a balance. +1 and +2 strength weapons on a S3 model were often the best options, as it made them hit on 4+ or 3+ against most targets instead of 5+ (I think this is right, can't check right now). Might not make much difference on a single sergeant, but as it is the weapon list then that includes ALL guardsmen who take weapons from that list, so thats all the veterans etc etc. So I think this was an intentional balance decision. And so their FAQ from before seems to completely negate it.

It wasnt a balance decision, it was a model decision. There is no kit that includes a power axe or a power maul in the Astra Militarum model range so they removed it from the codex in keeping with their policy of only including rules for things with models. If it was a balance issue, they would have addressed that in the index by making them more expensive or removing them entirely from the index so as to not give you an opportunity to "grandfather" them in at all. GW is quite deliberate in what they are doing.

chaos0xomega wrote:
It wasnt a balance decision, it was a model decision. There is no kit that includes a power axe or a power maul in the Astra Militarum model range so they removed it from the codex in keeping with their policy of only including rules for things with models. If it was a balance issue, they would have addressed that in the index by making them more expensive or removing them entirely from the index so as to not give you an opportunity to "grandfather" them in at all. GW is quite deliberate in what they are doing.

Well... I dunno if this is true. GW are yet to have made points or rules changes to 90% of the units and wargear options in the index that require it. And I haven't seen them remove anything at all - that's what the codex releases were for. And, potentially, Chapter Approved (if it lives up to the promise, which we will have to wait and see).

Sure, GW are being deliberate... but not in the way you seem to be suggesting.

Not saying you're entirely wrong, they did say they were removing options that they don't have kits for. But you are implying that they would deliberately make exceptions for the grandfather clause, and I think you're giving them wayyyy too much credit for planning ahead.

I read mine at lunch at work, mostly skipped the historical and the pictures and went for the rules and suchlike.

Things that are possibly in other codexes (which I didn't read) but track guards for 10pts sure make your Tallarn/Stell Legion mobile 'til the very end.

There's the plasmagun tax as well, costing extra for the BS3+ troops. I don't know if that's a common thing with other armies as welll. Don't see why that's there.

Ogryn bodyguards. Not powerful, but customizable, a punchy cheapo Nork for your characters. Elite Too.

The new Psychic powers are all right as well, a fearless and a -1 to hit, always good to have.

As it was posted earlier, You can always take a command squad with your Master of Ordinance since he's a Regimental officer.

ogryn body guard is stupid powerful since RAW he can take wounds for tank commanders right now. Its about the only thing aside from take cover and psychic abilities to keep him alive and theyre good for cqc in a pinch as well.

I fully expect that to be FAQ'd soon but there you go.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
ogryn body guard is stupid powerful since RAW he can take wounds for tank commanders right now. Its about the only thing aside from take cover and psychic abilities to keep him alive and theyre good for cqc in a pinch as well.

I fully expect that to be FAQ'd soon but there you go.

I wonder just how successful a list consisting of 18 ogryn bodyguards and 5 tank commanders would be... Maybe trim out a tank commander for a conscript screen, maybe not. Having to shoot at T8 and having your damage siphon off and spread across 108 wounds of ogryn characters would be nasty enough as is...

I still think it seems an expensive way to take tank wounds, guarding a company commander/commissar most of the weapons will be 1 damage, guarding a Tank Commander your bodyguard will be taking Melta/Lascannnon blasts and being insta gibbed due to damge outweighing his wounds with no benefit from his own equipment as hes relying on the 3+ of the tank which will be negated by the Melta/Lascannon anyway. Is it really that great to be spending at least 4/10th of a Leman Russ cost to add 50% HP but that extra HP not really being able to contribute much to the exchange of fire? For every two Ogryn Bodyguard your essentially better off taking another Leman Russ instead.

You don't want to give your ogryn bodyguard any gear he will be 55points and add 6 wounds to pask or any character.

Let's take an example of a pask punisher with an ogryn bodyguard behind him. Pask now has 6 t8 3+ wounds and this doesn't include any psychic buffs or smoke grenades that make pask more resilient.

Make no doubt the ogryn will explode first turn but if he keeps a key character alive a turn he already did his job. And he can easily cover several characters from being sniped.

Personally I think 5 ogryn body guards and all tank commanders are overkill and a waste of points.

On the other hand, a bodyguard deathstar of geared up ogryn which can spread wounds around to prevent any of them dying? That could be pretty powerful. Stick a priest in there, some other sort of soup buff unit and you have a lovely, rule exploiting deathstar. Use it before it is FAQed away.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I read mine at lunch at work, mostly skipped the historical and the pictures and went for the rules and suchlike.

Things that are possibly in other codexes (which I didn't read) but track guards for 10pts sure make your Tallarn/Stell Legion mobile 'til the very end.

Nope, these seem to be unique to IG. Very good too for mobile units.

There's the plasmagun tax as well, costing extra for the BS3+ troops. I don't know if that's a common thing with other armies as welll. Don't see why that's there.

It's there because IG had never-fail deepstriking BS3 troops dropping behind the enemy and making triple their points back in the first turn of every game. Was op. They still are op, or at least -extremely- good. Other armies with similar units (there aren't any, actually) already pay for it by the units being massively overpriced as standard. Eldar Rangers, Striking Scorpions, Stealth Suits, all very expensive for what they do. Plasma Scions are still cheap.

Ogryn bodyguards. Not powerful, but customizable, a punchy cheapo Nork for your characters. Elite Too.

Also powerful, Ogryn are good in this edition. Massive, powerful brutes that are also capable of blocking shots for all your characters. Great unit.

The new Psychic powers are all right as well, a fearless and a -1 to hit, always good to have.

I hadn't thought to check the new psychic powers. IG already had the best psykers in the universe. Seems they just got better. -1 to hit is always amazing, and fearless on IG troops is... well, they're already fearless because of characters, so I doubt this will get chosen much. +1 to saving throws is better I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:
On the other hand, a bodyguard deathstar of geared up ogryn which can spread wounds around to prevent any of them dying? That could be pretty powerful. Stick a priest in there, some other sort of soup buff unit and you have a lovely, rule exploiting deathstar. Use it before it is FAQed away.

I had to re-read the bodyguard datasheet, to discover that they are indeed characters... why? Why make a bodyguard able to bodyguard itself? There's no way the bodyguard should be a character, they are powerful enough as it is. Now you can indeed share wounds around.

In fact, unless I'm missing some wording, you could daisy chain the wounds to any bodyguard, even one not within 3".

Commissar takes damage.
Bodyguard 1 rolls a 3+, takes a mortal wound.
Because he's a character, Bodyguard 2 can roll a 3+ to take the wound instead.
Because he's also a character, Bodyguard 3 can roll a 3+ to take the wound instead.

As long as you keep rolling 3+, the wound could end up being taken by a guy right back in your deployment zone, behind a hill. Completely pointless, but I'm sure someone will find a use for it. Perhaps if there is a FNP bubble somewhere on the table, as FNP would then be usable to completely ignore the wound even happened. Don't know if IG has one of those though.

If you have 4 Ogryn bodyguards and you make most of your 3+ rolls, it takes 21 damage to kill the first one. Granted the next three just drop after, but until that point, the mob will have no degradation of it's fighting ability.

 Mmmpi wrote:
If you have 4 Ogryn bodyguards and you make most of your 3+ rolls, it takes 21 damage to kill the first one. Granted the next three just drop after, but until that point, the mob will have no degradation of it's fighting ability.

I wonder how many actual shots it would take to get 21 damage onto the unit in the first place. Somewhere close to 100 shots fired, I suspect. More, if you are using the -1 to hit psychic power on the character in question. And I'm talking 100 heavy weapon shots, not normal troop rifles. That bodyguard will not be getting killed off very often.

Using space marines with lascannons, it takes 4 (did the math in my head, so please fell free to correct) to do damage (3.5), so 24 lascannon shots to get the 21 wounds. Roughly that is. Assuming slab shields, bruit armor, and a save buff that adds to invulnerable saves. (Celestine for example)

 Mmmpi wrote:
Using space marines with lascannons, it takes 4 (did the math in my head, so please fell free to correct) to do damage (3.5), so 24 lascannon shots to get the 21 wounds. Roughly that is. Assuming slab shields, bruit armor, and a save buff that adds to invulnerable saves. (Celestine for example)

Oh true, lascannons would help due to the extra damage per shot. Though soaking up 24 lascannon shots is pretty huge.

Pask may be a target, but he will have a 2+ pretty much always.

I'd rather have the -1 to hit. Only time I ever make 5+ saves is on my guardsmen, lol.

 Trickstick wrote:
Nice write up Polonius, I did see one thing you covered that I thought worth expanding on though.

The Valhallan order that let's you shoot into combat, I personally think that it is rather powerful. Sure, it only works on infantry but I can see it being really useful against enemy vehicles. Tie them up with some conscripts so that they can't retreat, then fill them full of lascannons. If the lascannons hit your own guys, who cares? Could also be useful against characters, as melee is one time they may actually be closer than other targets and so you can snipe them out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I have a bit of a question. The rules state that you do orders at the beginning of the turn. Does that mean that you have to decide all of your orders before you truly use any of them? I know that you resolve them instantly, but that only gives squads the "change their weapon profile" or "can reroll something" effect, the shooting comes later in the phase. So I need to decide all of my orders at the start before I even shoot anything (except move move move and bayonets of course).

This seems rather an important point with how the orders work. I haven't seen it discussed much, but I guess that is because it was like that in the index (I didn't really play with the index, so didn't pick up on this procedure). It's a major shift from 7th, where you could see the effect of an order before choosing the next. Will take some getting used to.

As a final question, how do people with huge armies keep track of what orders they have activated? I guess it isn't too hard if you keep them broadly similar (take aim on HWSs, frfsrf on infantry etc.).

To comment on the orders: I believe it says under data sheets for any character with 2 orders (so company commanders, creed, and pask) that you have to perform the first order before doing the next. I don't have my book to quote it exactly.

Resolve the effects of the first order before issuing the second is the gist of the instruction.