Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**Unit1126PLL**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
This isn't a serious debate other than just theory and pointing out sloppy writing right? It's brutally clear what RAI is here, otherwise an infantry squad with a mortar would only cost 1 more point than a barebones squad.

If people are taking infantry squads and seriously thinking they only need to pay for 9 guardsmen because there are 9 models I'm not even entirely sure how to react to that. That's a level of reaching I don't think I've ever seen before. Especially considering you still clearly have 10 men in the squad, it's just GW decided to treat IG heavy weapons in a really dumb fashion and it's interacted oddly with the rules ever since.

2 guardsmen may form a heavy weapons team. The heavy weapons team before weapons does not cost anything. Those two infantry models combine into one heavy weapon team, but they still had to be bought in the first place. All infantry squads would start at 40pts, then go from there. Meaning the cheapest option, squad with mortar, would be 45pts.

The problem is, the way the rules work, nothing is "bought in the first place", as again, such a sequential mechanism would force you to buy the battlecannon for a Russ before you bought the Executioner cannon (as it "replaces" the battle cannon).

I do pay 40 points + weapons for my squads, btw, as I agree about RAI, but RAW is... iffy.

The other issue is that, say, you're scoring on an objective - two IG infantry squads on opposite sides, one with a HWT. If neither of them has suffered any casualties, the one with the HWT actually loses the objective to the other one, as it has only 9 models with OBSEC vs 10. So there actually is a disadvantage in some ways to having a heavy weapon team.

**Colonel Cross**

True about the disadvantage but more frequently I have used the heavy weapons teams as an advantage. Sucking up wounds to avoid more hefty morale checks, large base to deny area, etc.

**exliontamer**

I am possibly going to participate in a League that is starting Week 1 at 500 pts and running the ITC Simplified Scenario 1. I am looking for some help because I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get the most out of my 500 pts. The later points values are no problem for me. But since I run a lot of artillery and such, and that stuff is way too expensive to include at such a low point value, I am at a loss. I don't have piles of infantry either. But I do have a fair number of heavy weapons crews (mostly lascannon and autocannon).

Any suggestions? For reference I will likely be facing Marines (Imperial or Chaos) or Nids, since that is what is heavily played at my store. Thanks.

**Ecdain**

exliontamer wrote:
I am possibly going to participate in a League that is starting Week 1 at 500 pts and running the ITC Simplified Scenario 1. I am looking for some help because I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get the most out of my 500 pts. The later points values are no problem for me. But since I run a lot of artillery and such, and that stuff is way too expensive to include at such a low point value, I am at a loss. I don't have piles of infantry either. But I do have a fair number of heavy weapons crews (mostly lascannon and autocannon).

Any suggestions? For reference I will likely be facing Marines (Imperial or Chaos) or Nids, since that is what is heavily played at my store. Thanks.

2 x company commander

4 x 10 infantry w/ lascannnon

2 x 3 mortar HWT

498/500

I'm not sure what you meant by "piles of infantry" but you seem to have a decent amount of am so I'm hoping you have 6 squads of infantry somewhere. Only need 4 for this though

**MrMoustaffa**

Ecdain wrote:
exliontamer wrote:
I am possibly going to participate in a League that is starting Week 1 at 500 pts and running the ITC Simplified Scenario 1. I am looking for some help because I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get the most out of my 500 pts. The later points values are no problem for me. But since I run a lot of artillery and such, and that stuff is way too expensive to include at such a low point value, I am at a loss. I don't have piles of infantry either. But I do have a fair number of heavy weapons crews (mostly lascannon and autocannon).

Any suggestions? For reference I will likely be facing Marines (Imperial or Chaos) or Nids, since that is what is heavily played at my store. Thanks.

2 x company commander

4 x 10 infantry w/ lascannnon

2 x 3 mortar HWT

498/500

I'm not sure what you meant by "piles of infantry" but you seem to have a decent amount of am so I'm hoping you have 6 squads of infantry somewhere. Only need 4 for this though

You've actually still got a 134pts spare there, so he could take that entire list, a basilisk, and thow plasma on almost all those infantry squads to boot and still be at 500pts.

**tneva82**

Captain Roderick wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:
Dude I hate to be that guy but why are you doing this to yourself? Whoever has made this league has such a bone to pick with shooting armies that it sounds like they've done everything but say "Shooting isn't allowed". I would talk to this guy and tell him these missions are insane, if he has any idea of what balance is there's no way he can look at these scenarios and call them fair.

Forget IG for a moment, what would Tau do in this kind of scenario? They don't even get token melee units like guard does with Ogryn. I'm pretty sure it's actually impossible for them to win in this kind of scenario.

Well don't have other game available on the days and maybe it gets better. Funny thing is organizer is running shooty army himself and yesterday had to fend off ork horde.

It might be worth checking to see if later scenarios will favour shooty more? Otherwise, at least you're playing and making friends.

I'd suggest this might even be a good scenario for mech - with twin flamer chimeras you can at least do good overwatch, then disembark and shoot with the contents next turn. It would also lower your drops considerably.

Scenarios for future are still on the air. Maybe not even decided yet(since this is rather slow league, especially due to christmas and new year eve's plus one week gets relegated to club's inventory week, they have tons of time to design them thorough).

But yeah taking this more as extra games, chance to see what's up in 40k circle of this area, see if more people there might also be playing 30k(my main game), motivate to paint remaining IG.

Interesting idea about chimeras. Though don't have flamers in them. Have one unassembled so I could in theory assemble and paint this in 1.5 weeks I have left(problem being terrain & 30k takes hobby time). If I got that I could field pask, company commander, 3 squads of infantry in chimera's and like heavy weapon team. Tempting idea. 5 drops so I could even get +1 for first turn roll!

**Captain Roderick**

exliontamer wrote:
I am possibly going to participate in a League that is starting Week 1 at 500 pts and running the ITC Simplified Scenario 1. I am looking for some help because I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get the most out of my 500 pts. The later points values are no problem for me. But since I run a lot of artillery and such, and that stuff is way too expensive to include at such a low point value, I am at a loss. I don't have piles of infantry either. But I do have a fair number of heavy weapons crews (mostly lascannon and autocannon).

Any suggestions? For reference I will likely be facing Marines (Imperial or Chaos) or Nids, since that is what is heavily played at my store. Thanks.

I've just started an escalation league with a chum and went cheesy for my first game - although it was pre-faq so you'd probably have to tweak it.
Catachan patrol
HQ: tank commander, executioner, plasma sponsons, lascannons
Elites: Commissar, ministorum priest
Fast attack: 7 rough riders with 2 meltaguns
Troops: fill up on conscripts

I think I lost 3 rough riders and 4 conscripts in exchange for tabling my opponent.

Not recommended but it's an option!

**Razerous**

So I'm thinking massed Mortar teams? Instead of conscripts.

MSU to counteract moral. 33pts/squad for 6 wounds, (5.5pts/wound compared to the pts), decent footprint. Easier to add more, 33pts/squad (may need a piggy-back Spearhead detachment).

Decent shooting at very good range.. (with catachan), 12-13 str4 shots per squad, compared to 10-20 str 3 shots (at worse BS).

Thoughts?

**Commissar_Rex**

3d6 = 10.5 str4 shots per squad, average. Catachan Regimental Trait only applies to the shots roll of vehicles (unfortunately, which means that they don't have any benefit to flamers unless they use their order).

Conscripts aren't hyper(or at all, really) competitive with CA changes. Now you should just use infantry to screen for your units. For that purpose, mortars just aren't as good.

5.5 pts/W vs 4pts/W. Less models means they can't be wrapped as well. If they're wrapping, they're not taking advantage of the mortar not caring about LOS. Heavy weapons means that if you move to better wrap something, you're out of luck. Plus if you want to have other heavy slots (we're guard, of course you do), you have to pay an HQ tax.

Mortars are very efficient, but don't make a whole lot of sense to use as a screen for characters or from assault units. YMMV

**Razerous**

Fair - ty for the heads up.

See how I do with my screen-lite army then.

**azactaylor**

I have started using infantry squads with a flamer, and I have been having some decent success when things charge those screeners. 47 pts for 10 guardsmen is not bad at all! I have been running 3-6 of those depending on point level.

**MrMoustaffa**

azactaylor wrote:
I have started using infantry squads with a flamer, and I have been having some decent success when things charge those screeners. 47 pts for 10 guardsmen is not bad at all! I have been running 3-6 of those depending on point level.

Do you feel the flamers do more than just taking a plasma gun would? Just curious. If you're getting charged with them all the time and that's the sole purpose I could see them doing something but I can't help but wonder if I'd still rather have plasma for those games when I don't need to screen things and can use them offensively.

**Esmer**

Another thing to consider with flamers is that they should probably be avoided against "speed charging" armies (those that get to charge over longer distances, by getting 3 instead of 2 D6 and the like.) Anything over 8 " and the flamer becomes useless in overwatch.

**Captain Roderick**

I guess the other advantages with infantry over mortars is objective secured and coverage since those wounds are able to spread over a greater distance if needed.

**lash92**

Hey Guys,

First of all I am playing mechanised guard (Tallarn) and since I ran into some problems with countering Magnus & Mortarion in a single list (2k points game) I'm considering to add a superheavy on my own.

Sure I could add a Shadowsword, but I wanna build a TAC list and so I think I would be kind of screwed if my opponent doesn't field something big ^^

So long story short: What do you think is the best allround superheavy, which can also counter Mortarion / Magnus?

Bonus points if he can carry some guy since I'm playing mech

**Kdash**

lash92 wrote:
Hey Guys,

First of all I am playing mechanised guard (Tallarn) and since I ran into some problems with countering Magnus & Mortarion in a single list (2k points game) I'm considering to add a superheavy on my own.

Sure I could add a Shadowsword, but I wanna build a TAC list and so I think I would be kind of screwed if my opponent doesn't field something big ^^

So long story short: What do you think is the best allround superheavy, which can also counter Mortarion / Magnus?

Bonus points if he can carry some guy since I'm playing mech

Baneblade is generally good, but also i think the Doomhammer could be useful if you're looking at transports. The Banehammer can also be useful to affect enemy movement.

**lash92**

Kdash wrote:
lash92 wrote:
Hey Guys,

First of all I am playing mechanised guard (Tallarn) and since I ran into some problems with countering Magnus & Mortarion in a single list (2k points game) I'm considering to add a superheavy on my own.

Sure I could add a Shadowsword, but I wanna build a TAC list and so I think I would be kind of screwed if my opponent doesn't field something big ^^

So long story short: What do you think is the best allround superheavy, which can also counter Mortarion / Magnus?

Bonus points if he can carry some guy since I'm playing mech

Baneblade is generally good, but also i think the Doomhammer could be useful if you're looking at transports. The Banehammer can also be useful to affect enemy movement.

Looking at the rules I actually really like the Banehammer.

So three more questions regarding super heavies:

1) Are sponsons worth it? How many?

2) What about support characters? I already have an Enginseer and two Psykers in my list which could come in quite handy buffing the Doomhammer. Whats about additional stuff like Yarrick oder a Salamander Command vehicle? Edit: Maybe even Celestine for that Invuln?

3) What do you recommend sticking inside to shoot out? Veterans with Plasma?

**Resin Glazed Guardsman**

Bringing a stock Shadowsword only costs about 404 points. The volcano cannon alone will obliterate just about any target you point it at. Last game I wiped a repulsor off the board before it could do anything.

**Ecdain**

Shadowsword has the best gun, particularly versus titanic models(which Magnus and Morty are NOT). hellhammer has the most big guns though with two turret weapons.ekther way the best answer to Morty/Magnus guard have are manticores plus relic of lost cadia for re rolling hits and wounds v chaos

**lash92**

Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
Bringing a stock Shadowsword only costs about 404 points. The volcano cannon alone will obliterate just about any target you point it at. Last game I wiped a repulsor off the board before it could do anything.

Sure, but if my opponent brings only infantry or something like that I'm kind of screwed with the Shadowsword's 3D3 shots.

Also yeah the Shadowsword has the greatest average and potential damage. But it's not even so unlikely that you inflict zero damage:
Think about rolling low for the shots, missing half or more and then there is a 4++ (or even 3++ in case of a buffed Magnus).

I'm just a fan of high volume of fire

**Captain Roderick**

Stormlord full of mortars, heavy bolter sponsons maxed, with a trojan?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(probably best to add an atlas and techpriest, and go valhallan)

**necron99**

I'm in the "go all in" camp when it comes to super heavy tanks. Call me crazy but shadowsword with 4 sponsons is just crazy talk. Make it a catachan for the reroll on one dice of the volcano cannon or valhallan to keep it effective for more than a turn or two

Now add a trojan to babysit it to make all the weapons shooting rerollable....ok, it's pricey and will be a bullet magnet but good golly miss Molley!

**lash92**

Captain Roderick wrote:
Stormlord full of mortars, heavy bolter sponsons maxed, with a trojan?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(probably best to add an atlas and techpriest, and go valhallan)

Especially the Trojan sounds great. But adding all three will cost 250 points, which is more than half of the cost of the superheavy. Dunno if that's worth it.

**necron99**

In all of the games (which aren't many just saying though...) that I played my shadowsword except for one he got wiped by alpha strike T1. What saved him in the one game? I played him as Talleran and ambushed him. He got one turn of awesome shooting and then was promptly put down the next turn...

**Resin Glazed Guardsman**

As scary as the baneblade seems I've had them destroyed turn 1 as well by a single round of shooting by a couple of 4 las cannon predators.

So I started to bring two...

**Captain Roderick**

What's wrong with reserving and rolling on turn 1? Is that not a thing in 8th any more?

**MrMoustaffa**

Captain Roderick wrote:
What's wrong with reserving and rolling on turn 1? Is that not a thing in 8th any more?

No reserves unless a model specifically states it, you use a strategem, or a narrative custom scenario. That means just about everything has to be deployed turn 1.

**lash92**

necron99 wrote:
In all of the games (which aren't many just saying though...) that I played my shadowsword except for one he got wiped by alpha strike T1. What saved him in the one game? I played him as Talleran and ambushed him. He got one turn of awesome shooting and then was promptly put down the next turn...

That's what I was worrying about... so basically take 2-3 Russes for the price.

So what's beside superheavys and manticore (im really not an artillery guy) or best way dealing with Mortarion and Magnus?
I have no problems in taking some allies. (Preferably AdMech)

**ChargerIIC**

lash92 wrote:
necron99 wrote:
In all of the games (which aren't many just saying though...) that I played my shadowsword except for one he got wiped by alpha strike T1. What saved him in the one game? I played him as Talleran and ambushed him. He got one turn of awesome shooting and then was promptly put down the next turn...

That's what I was worrying about... so basically take 2-3 Russes for the price.

So what's beside superheavys and manticore (im really not an artillery guy) or best way dealing with Mortarion and Magnus?
I have no problems in taking some allies. (Preferably AdMech)

I've had a leman russ punisher scare him via sheer dice wieght. Stygies Vanquishers and Conqueror Battle Cannons on Leman Russ seems like a good solution in numbers.

**Panzergraf**

necron99 wrote:
Make it a catachan for the reroll on one dice of the volcano cannon

Will the one with the big 2D6 S14 gun be better if you go Catachan? Since rerolling a D6 is better than rerolling a D3.