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I'm looking at going to a 1k patrol only no FW no allies tournament in February. How do you all feel about hellhounds at that point level? This is what I'm thinking about taking:

Regimnet: Valhallan
1x Tank commander lc,hb,hb,bc, Grand Stratigist
1x Tank commander lc,hb,hb,bc, Kurov's Aquila
18x conscripts
18x conscripts
18x conscripts
1x Hellhound ic, hb, track guards
2x Hellhounds ic, hb, track guards


I just can't help myself...auto hitting turrets and they move normally to the last wound?! Would I be better served with 2 LR punishers with hb, hb, hb? That was my other list minus some screening dudes.

I'd probably take infantry squads over conscripts at that level but Iike the general gist of the list at least. Remember conscripts cost the same as guardsmen now so if bring as many; infantry squads as you could and maybe some SWS's and platoon commanders to help them out. Ironically this is one of the few situations platoon commanders are really useful.

Also you cannot legally take a conscript unit under 20 men, so your list is illegal as it sits. I took your list and just made a straight swap for three plasma/LC infantry squads and almost had enough points for a platoon commander as well, so you could look into that

Not the most competitive but should be fun. Note however that conscripts are minimum squad size 20. Valhallan will help with losses a bit but you might want to upgrade one of your tanks to a Commissar tank to keep them around a bit longer. That'll cost you 2cp.

Guys what do you reckon is the best loadout for a scout sentinel? im thinking either heavy flamer or autocsnnon? not sure though

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I'd probably take infantry squads over conscripts at that level but Iike the general gist of the list at least. Remember conscripts cost the same as guardsmen now so if bring as many; infantry squads as you could and maybe some SWS's and platoon commanders to help them out. Ironically this is one of the few situations platoon commanders are really useful.

Also you cannot legally take a conscript unit under 20 men, so your list is illegal as it sits. I took your list and just made a straight swap for three plasma/LC infantry squads and almost had enough points for a platoon commander as well, so you could look into that

Well that's what you get for using excel to make your lists :( My thoughts around conscripts vs infantry squad in this list was that conscripts would be strictly meat shields for the two russes. Basically I just wanted a lot of bodies to take some hits and prevent the russes from getting locked up from assaults. I've run into that issue before with my tank heavy lists and it's really hard to avoid on smaller boards. In one game I had a rhino tie up two of my conquerors (granted he rolled box cars on his charge which helped a lot but still...).

BTW, I thought this was a competitive list...lol. So what would constitute a tac list at 1k + patrol? Not knowing anything about amount of terrain or missions...

 necron99 wrote:


BTW, I thought this was a competitive list...lol. So what would constitute a tac list at 1k + patrol? Not knowing anything about amount of terrain or missions...

It is fairly competitive, I'd probably go for a Brigade at anything above 750pts personally. There's swings and roundabouts to tanks. You might be better just going all-tank at 1k because that way you'll always have someone free to blast melee attackers that you fell back from. Yes you will get tagged, but if you have plenty of reserve firepower that will help you out of that pickle.
Or, take some flamer sws' and use the valhallan order to just burninate those swines that tagged you

Here's a 1K valhallan brigade I've come up with, it's also not 100% competitive but there's 7 lascannons, 8 plasma guns and a lot of troops to take orders, strategems, and capture objectives, with a gunisher vulture for added anti-personnel to complement the 57 lasguns. 11 CP's and access to psychic powers also gives me lots of ways to boost those infantry squads.

HQ:
3 Company Commanders: 1st with grand strategist, 2nd with a bolt pistol upgraded to Pietrov's Mk 45, 3rd with Kurov's Aquila
Troops:
6 infantry squads, each with a plasma gun
Elites:
3 astropaths
Fast Attack:
1 unit of 5 rough riders with 2 plasma guns
2 Tauros Venators with twin lascannon
Heavy:
3 heavy weapon squads, each with a lascannon and 2 mortars
Flyer:
Punisher Vulture.

 necron99 wrote:
My thoughts around conscripts vs infantry squad in this list was that conscripts would be strictly meat shields for the two russes.

Might want to check the CA changes to conscripts. They now cost the same points per model as regular infantry squads, except they're inferior in every way (including their value at taking up space in front of tanks). There's literally no reason to ever take conscripts again, pretend the page is now deleted from your codex.

 Peregrine wrote:

 necron99 wrote:
My thoughts around conscripts vs infantry squad in this list was that conscripts would be strictly meat shields for the two russes.

Might want to check the CA changes to conscripts. They now cost the same points per model as regular infantry squads, except they're inferior in every way (including their value at taking up space in front of tanks). There's literally no reason to ever take conscripts again, pretend the page is now deleted from your codex.

Hyberbole is strong, I will acknowledge.

The few reasons you could take conscripts over infantry squads is the squad size and the efficiency of scale. In fact that is the only reason!

Razerous wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 necron99 wrote:
My thoughts around conscripts vs infantry squad in this list was that conscripts would be strictly meat shields for the two russes.

Might want to check the CA changes to conscripts. They now cost the same points per model as regular infantry squads, except they're inferior in every way (including their value at taking up space in front of tanks). There's literally no reason to ever take conscripts again, pretend the page is now deleted from your codex.

Hyberbole is strong, I will acknowledge.

The few reasons you could take conscripts over infantry squads is the squad size and the efficiency of scale. In fact that is the only reason!

... combined squads.

 Captain Roderick wrote:

 necron99 wrote:


BTW, I thought this was a competitive list...lol. So what would constitute a tac list at 1k + patrol? Not knowing anything about amount of terrain or missions...

It is fairly competitive, I'd probably go for a Brigade at anything above 750pts personally. There's swings and roundabouts to tanks. You might be better just going all-tank at 1k because that way you'll always have someone free to blast melee attackers that you fell back from. Yes you will get tagged, but if you have plenty of reserve firepower that will help you out of that pickle.
Or, take some flamer sws' and use the valhallan order to just burninate those swines that tagged you

Here's a 1K valhallan brigade I've come up with, it's also not 100% competitive but there's 7 lascannons, 8 plasma guns and a lot of troops to take orders, strategems, and capture objectives, with a gunisher vulture for added anti-personnel to complement the 57 lasguns. 11 CP's and access to psychic powers also gives me lots of ways to boost those infantry squads.

HQ:
3 Company Commanders: 1st with grand strategist, 2nd with a bolt pistol upgraded to Pietrov's Mk 45, 3rd with Kurov's Aquila
Troops:
6 infantry squads, each with a plasma gun
Elites:
3 astropaths
Fast Attack:
1 unit of 5 rough riders with 2 plasma guns
2 Tauros Venators with twin lascannon
Heavy:
3 heavy weapon squads, each with a lascannon and 2 mortars
Flyer:
Punisher Vulture.

Thanks for your input Captain Roderick - it's greatly appreciated. I agree a battalion would be better but I'm restricted to a single patrol with no allies or FW. Still it's kind of fun to see what IG can do.

Oh dang you're that dude! Sorry should have checked your username before posting.
Given what your have to work with then, switch to infantry squads with specials and you'll be grand.
Also as valhallans you'll get much less use out of track guards on the hellhounds. You have to be down to 2 wounds for them to kick in at all. You can use those points cunningly elsewhere I'm sure :-)

Razerous wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 necron99 wrote:
My thoughts around conscripts vs infantry squad in this list was that conscripts would be strictly meat shields for the two russes.

Might want to check the CA changes to conscripts. They now cost the same points per model as regular infantry squads, except they're inferior in every way (including their value at taking up space in front of tanks). There's literally no reason to ever take conscripts again, pretend the page is now deleted from your codex.

Hyberbole is strong, I will acknowledge.

The few reasons you could take conscripts over infantry squads is the squad size and the efficiency of scale. In fact that is the only reason!

Conscripts only pass orders 50% of the time, so they’re no longer efficient. Do not take conscripts. They are a trap option.

How do you guys handle morale for infantry squads? Seems to me like outside of an order a squad of 10 guardsmen will get blown off the table pretty easily.

 Billagio wrote:
How do you guys handle morale for infantry squads? Seems to me like outside of an order a squad of 10 guardsmen will get blown off the table pretty easily.

I find that I rarely have to even take morale checks for them because usually they just die to the man anyways.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
How do you guys handle morale for infantry squads? Seems to me like outside of an order a squad of 10 guardsmen will get blown off the table pretty easily.

I find that I rarely have to even take morale checks for them because usually they just die to the man anyways.

Figured, so if im running a russ heavy list, bog standard guardsmen are still going to be pretty good to make up the rest of my forces?

 Billagio wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
How do you guys handle morale for infantry squads? Seems to me like outside of an order a squad of 10 guardsmen will get blown off the table pretty easily.

I find that I rarely have to even take morale checks for them because usually they just die to the man anyways.

Figured, so if im running a russ heavy list, bog standard guardsmen are still going to be pretty good to make up the rest of my forces?

Absolutely! Somebody has to eat the charges, claim objectives and screen. They are so cost effective they pay for themselves by just showing up and getting shot.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Billagio wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
How do you guys handle morale for infantry squads? Seems to me like outside of an order a squad of 10 guardsmen will get blown off the table pretty easily.

I find that I rarely have to even take morale checks for them because usually they just die to the man anyways.

Figured, so if im running a russ heavy list, bog standard guardsmen are still going to be pretty good to make up the rest of my forces?

Absolutely! Somebody has to eat the charges, claim objectives and screen. They are so cost effective they pay for themselves by just showing up and getting shot.

Do you need anything else besides company commanders to buff them? My list is currently consisting of LR Conquerors, a manticore, 2x HWT 2x CC and a bunch of standard guardsmen. Not trying to be super competitive, just with friends

I run Catachan and I usually toss a command squad with a standard in there if I'm not bring as WAAC as I can get. Then the core of my defense usually gets 9 leadership. Which is very good for guardsmen.

Razerous wrote:
Hyberbole is strong, I will acknowledge.

It's not hyperbole, it's truth. Conscripts do not exist anymore.

The few reasons you could take conscripts over infantry squads is the squad size and the efficiency of scale. In fact that is the only reason!

Except, between the orders nerf and the weaker stat line, you have to over-invest in buffing your larger squad just to bring them up to the level that basic infantry squads get with no buffs. For example, giving conscripts FRFSRF averages out to a 50% increase in firepower (100% improvement x 50% failure rate), while the basic stat line of an infantry squad is 50% more firepower by default at the same cost per model. No matter how efficient the larger squad size is at applying FRFSRF to more models you're still paying a non-zero amount of points per model to match what the alternative unit gets for zero points. The few situations where you could possibly gain any kind of efficiency of scale compared to regular guardsmen are such rare edge cases that they aren't worth considering.

Yeah, conscripts really serve no specific purpose in competitive lists.

You could argue for valhallans with the blam pistol, but even then it's an exercise in trying to make them work, not in them being the best tool for the job.

Guard still have the best chaff in the game. 40 points buys you 10 men, and 52 points gets you ten men with a plasma gun and plasma pistol. Hell, if you run catachans you can rock S4 power swords for dirt cheap.

 Peregrine wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Hyberbole is strong, I will acknowledge.

It's not hyperbole, it's truth. Conscripts do not exist anymore.

The few reasons you could take conscripts over infantry squads is the squad size and the efficiency of scale. In fact that is the only reason!

Except, between the orders nerf and the weaker stat line, you have to over-invest in buffing your larger squad just to bring them up to the level that basic infantry squads get with no buffs. For example, giving conscripts FRFSRF averages out to a 50% increase in firepower (100% improvement x 50% failure rate), while the basic stat line of an infantry squad is 50% more firepower by default at the same cost per model. No matter how efficient the larger squad size is at applying FRFSRF to more models you're still paying a non-zero amount of points per model to match what the alternative unit gets for zero points. The few situations where you could possibly gain any kind of efficiency of scale compared to regular guardsmen are such rare edge cases that they aren't worth considering.

The range in which they work (as before) is much more narrow and I agree infantry squads are going to be better in most cases.

However certain things still work, aren't reliant on orders and don't require the use of command points. A 30-strong squad, kept in line by the pistol & with non-order buffing,

However however, whilst the above is good I do fully agree it is no longer the best. But to call it worthless is hyperbole.

Someone tell me how to do pure Tempestus Scions. Is it just airdrop troops with plasma guns whilst empty taurox primes drive around? Because that sounds fun but expensive, what with each troop box coming with only one plasma gun (anyone know where I can get more?)

C4790M wrote:
Someone tell me how to do pure Tempestus Scions. Is it just airdrop troops with plasma guns whilst empty taurox primes drive around? Because that sounds fun but expensive, what with each troop box coming with only one plasma gun (anyone know where I can get more?)

You can buy a box of 5 resin plasma guns from GW. They're intended for space marines, but work fine with guard or scions with a bit of converting. I use the grenade launcher or flamethrower hand.

First off, there's no reason, other than personal choice, to do a straight army of Scions. They work perfectly fine in their own detachment with another detachment of straight guard (and that's how they work best in my opinion).

So for my money, scions have two very strong setups.

1. Plasma command squads, with 4 plasma guns. These guys drop in, double fire, and then are most likely killed on their resulting turn. They cost 88 points, and they do 8 shots of str 8 D2, AP-3 on a BS3+. its hard NOT making your points back with good target selection. Your MT regiment tactic will benefit these guys well.

2. Full 10 man squad of scions with 4 hot shot volley guns, accompanied by a Tempestor Prime. These things make Marines jealous. 24" range with 4 S4 AP-2 D1 shots. These guys are the ones that get orders as well typically. I drop them into a strong point and they hold the line. You're cranking out 24 shots, rerolling 1s with orders, and while you're probably not usually shooting many vehicles and monsters with them, their strength 4 means they're wounding on a rerolling 5+ for anything under T8. Not bad at all really. Yeah they're BS4+ if you move, but try not to move much. I like running them in a pair with one Tempestor Prime. That works out to 293 points for the whole group. And it puts out a serious amount of pain.

Less strong setups:
3. All HSLG squad, preferably ten men with Tempestor Prime for orders.This setup is not as strong mathmetcally in my opinion. Scions lack of range means you're going to have a tough time using that rapid fire, which really weakens them. This setup is best when riding in a Taurox or Valkyrie.
4. Melta Command squad. This one is hard to use because of Melta's short range. Again, need a Taurox or a Valkyrie to get you into the right position, but it is an assault weapon which can also lead to some interesting options.

Grenade launchers are trash. Flamers are so situational you'll never get to use them. Same with all the command squad upgrades. You're just not likely going to be in a position where they will do any work for you. Taurox Primes are decent vehicles. But they should be either long range fire support (as half assed LRBTs basically), or they should charge up the field to recover any survivors from the dropped in scions. I really think investing in an LRBT is better than using a Taurox Prime with the battle cannon, its not that much more and it does a hell of a lot more work. But a gatling gun taurox prime with volley guns is a decent vehicle and can drive up and provide medium range fire support to the drop scions, and give you the option of pulling them out and relocating mid game.

Now the best thing to support scions with is drops. Bring at least as many IG squad in a second detachment, so that all your scions can drop in. You're paying 2 points per scion for that grav chute deployment, don't let it go to waste. IG squads are cheap, but make sure you bring a Company Commander along for each pair, because he is a huge force multiplier for a very cheap cost. He also makes a better warlord than your Tempestor Prime, who will probably be too easily killed by your opponent.


As far as modeling goes, my preference is to make a HSVG and a Plasma gun with every box. When I started I bought two Start Collecting kits right off the bat, and then four more boxes of 5 each. That gave me 40 scions.

I suggest making:
8 Plasma Guns
8 HSVGs
4 Sergeants (with chainsword and Plasma)
18 HSLGs.
2 Tempestor Primes with Command Rods and whatever weapon you want. I also converted one of the Commissars into a Tempestor Prime for fun.

This makes a nice little 3CP detachment, around 600 points.
HQ:
Tempestor Prime Command Rod
Tempestor Prime Command Rod
Troops:
Militarum Tempestus Scions, 1 Tempestor, 5 Scions, 4 HSVG
Militarum Tempestus Scions, 1 Tempestor, 5 Scions, 4 HSVG
Militarum Tempestus Scions, 1 Tempestor, 9 Scions
Elite:
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad 4 Plasma Gunners
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad 4 Plasma Gunners


If you're playing at 1000 points, that leaves you with 400 points to make another 3 CP detachment of normal IG and get at least 7 drops into it. Which is a breeze with IG. I recommend a mix of mortars Heavy Weapon Squads and Bare bones Infantry squads with a couple officers to support them. Or throw in a vanguard detachment with a LBRT and some infantry to bubble wrap it. Basilisks are another good option.

Drop the HSLG squad and fiddle with the point spread to get this in under 500 points for small games. Your HSVG squads will deploy with one Prime to hold your deployment zone, and your other prime will drop in and wreck face with two plasma gun squads before going out in a blaze of glory. Your opponent will likely be salty.

Razerous wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 necron99 wrote:
My thoughts around conscripts vs infantry squad in this list was that conscripts would be strictly meat shields for the two russes.

Might want to check the CA changes to conscripts. They now cost the same points per model as regular infantry squads, except they're inferior in every way (including their value at taking up space in front of tanks). There's literally no reason to ever take conscripts again, pretend the page is now deleted from your codex.

Hyberbole is strong, I will acknowledge.

The few reasons you could take conscripts over infantry squads is the squad size and the efficiency of scale. In fact that is the only reason!

Larger squad size is more of HINDRANCE. More casualties to morale, harder to move around. 2 squads of 10 is more durable than 1 squad of 20 even with 2 identical units and conscripts have worse LD=even less durable. And efficiency of scale? For what? Orders? 4+ success rate nullifies that right away.

It's not hyperbole when it's 100% true. You pay same points for what's better unit in every way. Funny you even try to claim bigger squad size as a bonus when it's actually WEAKNESS for the unit. You would be better off with 2x10 conscripts than 20 conscripts if you could! (in IG player's dream world he would take 20x1 conscript squads. The smaller the better)

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Absolutely! Somebody has to eat the charges, claim objectives and screen. They are so cost effective they pay for themselves by just showing up and getting shot.

Straight from the Astra Militarum Officer's Handbook, that is.

Razerous wrote:
However certain things still work, aren't reliant on orders and don't require the use of command points. A 30-strong squad, kept in line by the pistol & with non-order buffing,

However however, whilst the above is good I do fully agree it is no longer the best. But to call it worthless is hyperbole.

Well, let's examine that. There's no reason to be vague, what we're talking about is using buffs to saves and morale, probably with Psychic Barrier and Take Cover, followed by either Mental Fortitude, the valhallan pistol, or a Insane Bravery. You end up with 30 3+ save fearless models, which is admittedly better than 10 3+ fearless models.

However... all of those buffs (except the pistol, which is an aura) are single use per turn. Putting Psychic barrier on conscripts means that your tanks (for which the conscripts are likely bubblewrapping) don't get it. Take Cover is more slanted to infantry, so conscripts do get more mileage out of it.

I think that this whole debate forgets that you can combine two squads a turn with a CP. To me, that shifts the debate sharply, because now instead of comparing 30 man conscripts to 10 man squads, you're looking at 20 man squads. Of course, you can't combine prior to an alpha strike, but you also can't use psychic barrier.

Conscripts have been nerfed of any really viable offense, and so only really exist to be chaff. Properly supported, they are better chaff than infantry squads, but cost way more, as you need two characters to buff them, either with pyschic powers or the pistol. So for 180 points you have a fearless, 4+ save 30 man mob... or only a few points more you could run 3 infantry squads with plasma gun/plasma pistol and a company commander, get basically the same chaff abilities, but also do work?

The tragedy of this conversation is that there are actually really good units that could use the buffs you want to throw on conscripts. For example, Bullgryn under psychic barrier have a 1+/3++ with T5, and so can tank whatever the enemy throws at them. While more expensive and not troops, if you want to tool up some infantry, I'd start there, not with conscripts.

So the holidays have been crazy, but I saw some talk of superheavy detachments and what I have been running is roughly along the lines of the following, with minor changes because the variants are all different prices:

3x Baneblades/Stormswords/Banehammers/whathaveyou

1 Battalion of Imperial Guard (30 men, 2 officers) for screens

1 Battalion of Skitarii (15 men, 2 Tech-priests) for screens and Psychic Defense with the Graia forge world.

With the Graia relic and access to Mechanicus warlord traits and stratagems, this nets me a repair roll of 4-8 restored wounds per turn on one of my superheavy tanks, 13 Command Points while having 3 Superheavy Tanks, and outright nasty psychic defense (4+ to deny any one power of my choosing automatically regardless of how well they cast it).

Consider running inquisitor greyfax in a support detachment. She gives LD10 in 6".

 argonak wrote:

C4790M wrote:
Someone tell me how to do pure Tempestus Scions. Is it just airdrop troops with plasma guns whilst empty taurox primes drive around? Because that sounds fun but expensive, what with each troop box coming with only one plasma gun (anyone know where I can get more?)

Very detailed comprehensive analysis

Thanks so much for the write-up! I'm definitely going to be picking up a Start Collecting box or three, along with a set of plasma guns.

Is there anywhere I can read up on heavy weapon teams? I am adding some genestealer cults to my nid army. I might support them with some astra militarum, but I do not know enough about them. My tyranids brings venom cannons and impaler cannons. The cult brings hammer abbrrants. I don't know what AM can bring. The army is very saturated in infantery, I feel a tank would be shot of the table turn 1.