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You can't give the +1 CP relic to a Tech-Priest Enginseer, right? It's Dominus only.

 Therion wrote:
You can't give the +1 CP relic to a Tech-Priest Enginseer, right? It's Dominus only.

Is it? If so I've cheated in like two games. Let me check...

Oh yes! You're right. Well, busted back down to 12 CP.

Reading is hard, clearly.

EDIT:
In that case, I've to do more research. I'd keep the Mechanicus detachment, because the Tech Adept and Steel Mind, Iron Logic stratagems are such powerful tools, but the warlord and relic might get moved to a Company Commander. The "Grand Strategist" trait and "Kurov's Aquila" relic may very well more than make up for the lost CP and 2 fewer repaired wounds.

I have heard sentinels are changing. Does anyone know for better or worse?

Imperial_Boots wrote:
I have heard sentinels are changing. Does anyone know for better or worse?

In a future chapter approved? If you got some insight please do share.

Could they get worse?

I'm currently running 2 x 5 rough riders to fill out a Brigade. They're pretty good for gaining recon in ITC missions.

Really wish the chainsaw was better on sentinels

What's so bad about the sentinels? They're great at denying board space (scouts especially), can carry Heavy Weapons that the enemy can't really ignore, and still take a moderate amount of shooting to get rid of. At 50-60 points, seems like a bargain?

Seriously though. And every time someone shoots an AT weapon at an armored sentinel I just think in my head, "YES!"

I think that Sentinels in cover with something like a Lascannon are gold. Area denial, no decay due to damage, with a threatening weapon that you don't want to ignore, but you also don't want to take shots away from Russes or other tanks. Puts the opponent in a bit of a bind, regarding targeting.

If they get cheaper, and stay just as they are, I'd be tickled pink. I already use them to cheaply fill FA slots. I'd use more than 3, if I owned more.

I need to try mine more. I took them once or twice and they're annoying for opponents to deal with, since they're surprisingly tough. They are kind of expensive for no more firepower than they provide though, and they have a hard time hitting most things with single shot weapons.

With the reduction in points I think an Autocannon on a Scout Sentinel is a great bargain. I run Tallarn, so moving from one bit of cover to another as needed and still shooting at full effect is really convenient.

I'm finding that the armies that really want to DS in have tools that get to work at carving out dropzones before the Sentinels get to move. IE Nurglings and Scouts.

They work great against armies that need to DS without those tools, but I'm not convinced they're worth their points because of the likelihood of running into those two units in a 3-6 game tournament.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that if you just want durable lascannons you take an Annihilator. It'll put out 4 lascannon shots on the move with no penalty for 170pts, and is a Leman Russ, so you know it can take hits.

So really all the sentinel adds is if it's a scout, and potentially 3 armored sentinels being a bit tougher by sheer weight of wounds. Odds of a 2+ save for cover is low since you need to actually obscure such a tall model.

I honestly think I'd just prefer the Russ and spamming lascannons on infantry. I feel like the sentinel must have some weapon that it works well with but I'll be honest I have yet to find it. Multilasers are trash, autocannons are pointless when we have tauroxes, so the only other thing I can think of would be missile launchers or heavy flamers. Maybe armored sentinels could use plasma cannons if they're cadian or don't overcharge but that seems expensive for what it does as well. Even scouting I feel could be done better with ratlings, since they're fall smaller and could be hidden easily, making them more difficult to shoot away for a turn 2 deepstrike than a gangly sentinel standing in the open.

I'm in the middle of reading through this thread and I found an idea that tickles my fancy. What do you guys think of this as the core of a 2000pt army? I've split this into different sections, not via detachment, still gotta figure out how to fit it.

Company Commander
Commissar
Priest
2x50 Conscripts

Tempestor Prime
2x10 Scions with max plasma

Stormlord wiith extra hvy bolters and lascannons
18x mortar teams
Company command squad with 2 snipers
Primaris Psyker
Techpriest Enginseer

Comes out at 1568pts.
The idea is to sit the Psyker and Enginseer behind the Stormlord, giving D3 wounds per turn and +1 save. Bubble wrap with conscripts, and the Scions do their thing.
The Stormlord has, Vulcan Mega Bolter, 4x LC, 6x Hvy Bolters, 3x Heavy Stubbers, 18x Mortars and 2x snipers (could swap for an additional heavy weapon).
The rest of the army would probably be standard guard squads with hvy weapons and commanders / commissars.

How do you think this would fare? I haven't had many games of 8th yet, just theory hammering atm.

Can't have conscripts in 50 man units anymore. Even if you could I'd recommend just taking infantry squads instead since they're the same cost these days for better LD, BS, and equipment. I'd also check your points to make sure you're using Chapter approved updates, since you appear to be reading your rules from an older source.

Otherwise, 18 mortars feels excessive to me. Commissars don't do as much anymore, and priests are very niche. You also have a command squad with no banner yet 2 snipers, which makes me wonder what your plan for them is in the first place.

I would warn about placing all your eggs in one basket. As your list sits your shadowsword is your sole source of serious Anti Tank. If it gets taken out, and it can easily be taken out if the opponent wants it gone at 2k, your only really hope is some stormtroopers and maybe the mortars through sheer weight of fire. I would drop your conscripts and replace them with infantry squads running las/plas. Covers the conscripts role and makes you less dependent on the shadowsword. From there, you'd want additional company commanders, command squads with banners, maybe even other morale tricks like a russ to be a tank commissar or an inquisitor.

Have you given any thought to your regiment yet? It will heavily dictate what the exact list will be.

Thanks man, I'm still catching up with the new updates. Was just reading through this thread and found this idea around page 30 or so. I'll finish reading this thread first though. Cheers for the input.

the_Jakman wrote:
Thanks man, I'm still catching up with the new updates. Was just reading through this thread and found this idea around page 30 or so. I'll finish reading this thread first though. Cheers for the input.

Holy Crap that's like a 120 pages. I'd stick to maybe the last 30 at most, a solid chunk of the data before that is pre codex/Erratas and is heavily outdated. Just trying to save you a little time. Our last big changes were chapter approved around Christmas, so if you can find that time point anything after it postwise is current.

Have you played a vulture ? Is it as good as it seems ? Especially with an officer of the fleet nearby, it looks like a no brainer in this troops heavy meta, isn't it ?

It was kind of a no brainier before Russes could double tap. The gap has been lessened now. They're still totally viable. Theres a few pros and cons to each. A leman Russ is unlikely to be able to assassinate a character but a Vulture can!

I know russes are generally seen as durable, but I've had the opposite experience. Without an invuln or a feel no pain, they pop super easy. All guard vehicles do.

Hemlock flies by a Russ? The Russ is one shot.
Nurgle guy with a 2d6 strength flamer? One shots a Russ.
Hell, last game I had 3 pleageburst crawlers almost take out my shadowsword in 1 turn (knocked it to lowest bracket) while I couldn't take out a single crawler for the life of me.

Am I alone in this?

At 12 wounds, a Hemlock will only be 1 shotting a Russ the minority of the time – even if it gets smite off as well. Of course, it can still do it, even without smite, but, you’d need to get lucky with the 2d3 shots and wound with everything on a 3+.

I find it much more reliable to shoot and charge an Autarch Skyrunner into a Russ that’s been doomed.

I’m curious about Vultures myself. The amount of shots they put out is fantastic, they are mobile, but I doubt their ability to last more than a turn or 2 in the current meta.

I will play one in two weeks using using my avenger as count as, I will tell how it went.
I had very little success with my russes for the moment, they are pretty durable, more than I thought, even in assault, but they can't kill anything. Except for my punisher.
What are your experience with battle cannons russes ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThePorcupine wrote:
I know russes are generally seen as durable, but I've had the opposite experience. Without an invuln or a feel no pain, they pop super easy. All guard vehicles do.

Hemlock flies by a Russ? The Russ is one shot.
Nurgle guy with a 2d6 strength flamer? One shots a Russ.
Hell, last game I had 3 pleageburst crawlers almost take out my shadowsword in 1 turn (knocked it to lowest bracket) while I couldn't take out a single crawler for the life of me.

Am I alone in this?

You need at least one or two psykers or good deployement to protect your tanks from smite / psy powers generating mortal wounds.
3 crawlers are about 450 pts, aren't they ? I m not surprised they almost destroyed a similary priced unit

 godardc wrote:
I will play one in two weeks using using my avenger as count as, I will tell how it went.
I had very little success with my russes for the moment, they are pretty durable, more than I thought, even in assault, but they can't kill anything. Except for my punisher.
What are your experience with battle cannons russes ?

I'm surprised to hear that, my Battle Cannon Russes do an incredible amount of work in my games. I run a Catachan Spearhead with a Tank Commander and 3 Russes of whatever flavor, and they always take huge chunks out of the enemy. The commander gets heavy bolter sponsons, and Demolishers get heavy flamers, but LRBTs I leave completely stock. I'm strongly considering adding Harker for the re-roll aura.

One other thing I'm greatly enjoying is Steel Legion infantry squads. I arm them with just a plasma gun, and for 47 points they do a huge amount of lifting. I usually run 3-5 and have Yarrick follow them around.

ThePorcupine wrote:
I know russes are generally seen as durable, but I've had the opposite experience. Without an invuln or a feel no pain, they pop super easy. All guard vehicles do.

Hemlock flies by a Russ? The Russ is one shot.
Nurgle guy with a 2d6 strength flamer? One shots a Russ.
Hell, last game I had 3 pleageburst crawlers almost take out my shadowsword in 1 turn (knocked it to lowest bracket) while I couldn't take out a single crawler for the life of me.

Am I alone in this?

you need really unlucky rolls for a 2d6 SUser(6ish) flamer with AP-1 and D1 to one-shot a T7 W12 3+ tank. Plagueburst crawlers also would also need very good rolls to knock the shadowsword that far down in 1 round (20 wounds v T8 3+), because they hit & wound on a 4+. entropy cannons erase the armor but the mortar doesn't. Averages say 3 PBC with entropy cannons will knock 8.75 wounds off a shadowsword per turn.

Russes are great. With the way saves and AP works this edition a 3+ with or without a 6++ are almost the exact same. Sure it'll get blown off the table if you only have one or two tanks, but with some more target saturation you're doing great. They're just generally a great weapons platform, they block LOS, can get access to orders, and are T8.

I like them, anyway. But it doesn't look like people in the top 8 were really throwing down a lot of armor, so maybe there's something just wrong with tanks

Plagueburst crawler vs a shadowsword:

2 Entropy Cannons:
2 shots, 1 hit, .5 wound, .5 past armour, 1.75 damage

Main armament:
3.5 shots, 1.75 hits, 0.88 wounds, 0.58 past saves, 1.16 damage.

Total wounds done to a shadowsword by 1 Plageburst Crawler: 2.91, on average.

Total wounds done to a shadowsword by 3 plagueburst crawlers on average: ~9.

I find it highly unlikely that they did 21 or more wounds in one turn, and if they did, I'd check your opponent's dice.


That said, the reason I bring 3 superheavies is because of the plethora of units that /can/ one shot them. Recently, I've added 3 units of 12 Ork Tankbustas with 2 Squig-bombs in each riding in 3 trukks.

I find it odd Godardc that your punisher can kill stuff yet battle cannons don't?

I play Catachan mostly so maybe that's why I take so many battle cannons. But I did just have a TC with battle Cannon 1 shot a repulsor lol. Granted his hull Lascannon did about 5 of the wounds.

I like to run a fireball punisher and the damn Gatling Cannon rarely does much. Maybe I play against too many Marine players and too much cover?

In my defense he cast some bs on my shadowsword that lowered its toughness by 1. And had some dude near his crawlers that let them reroll 1s.

So I ordered 9 heavy weapons teams. As I understand it mortar teams are the most popular loadout? I wonder why? I just did the mathhammer out of curiosity and I don't know that they stack up all that favorably vs other weapons. Is the indirect fire capability honestly their only draw? I feel like if you have line of sight almost anything else is better. Cost is obviously a big factor

9 mortars = 99 points
9 mortars vs T8 3+ = 1D
9 mortars vs T7 3+ = 2D
9 mortars vs T4 3+ = 3D
9 mortars vs T3 4+ = 6D
9 mortars vs T3 5+ = 8.1D

9 h.bolters = 126 points
9 h.bolters vs T8 3+ = 2.6D
9 h.bolters vs T7 3+ = 2.6D
9 h.bolters vs T4 3+ = 5.3D
9 h.bolters vs T3 4+ = 7D
9 h.bolters vs T3 5+ = 8.8D

9 autocannons = 162 points
9 autocannons vs T8 3+ = 3.5D
9 autocannons vs T7 3+ = 5.3D
9 autocannons vs T4 3+ = 3.5W (2D each)
9 autocannons vs T3 4+ = 5.8W (2D each)
9 autocannons vs T3 5+ = 7.3W (2D each)

9 lascannons = 234 points
9 lascannons vs T8 3+ = 10.3D
9 lascannons vs T7 3+ = 10.3D
9 lascannons vs T4 3+ = 3.7W (3.5D each)
9 lascannons vs T3 4+ = 4.4W (3.5D each)
9 lascannons vs T3 5+ = ...why tho

It is because my main opponent plays a lot of gaunts, so shooting with a punisher is effective, when I usually get low results on my dice when rolling for my battle canons.
Yesterday I did 2 damages to a trygon...
(I play Tallarn, maybe I should try Catachan)

ThePorcupine wrote:
So I ordered 9 heavy weapons teams. As I understand it mortar teams are the most popular loadout? I wonder why?

Mortars are the most popular for Heavy Weapon Squads because they're cheap. HWS are very fragile, so many are loathe to invest points in special weapons that are so easy to kill. The fact that Mortars can safely hide outside LoS is another big selling point.

Heavy weapon teams within squads have a lot more protection, and Lascannons seem fairly popular for that.

ThePorcupine wrote:
So I ordered 9 heavy weapons teams. As I understand it mortar teams are the most popular loadout? I wonder why? I just did the mathhammer out of curiosity and I don't know that they stack up all that favorably vs other weapons. Is the indirect fire capability honestly their only draw? I feel like if you have line of sight almost anything else is better.

Mortars are cheap points-wise and you can hide them pretty much everywhere. Think about it: You're basically getting a 48" d6 bolter shots that ignore line of sight for the cost of a SM Scout. It's not a fair comparison for multiple reasons, but as far as small arms damage output per points, it's hard to beat. They're also the cheapest way to fill out those mandatory heavy slots in a Brigade. Tanks and basilisks are nice, but eventually you have enough.

That being said, I actually like lascannons for my heavy weapons. They're fragile, but do some decent damage. They might be better suited for being in an Infantry Squad though.

The nice thing about the (cadian or catachan) heavy weapon teams though is that each kit gives you all the weapons. You only get one tripod, but the mortar doesn't use it, so you ebay some extra large bases, and you can make the mortar, the missile launcher, and one of the other weapons, more if you get creative about how you mount it.

I just wish they still made heavy weapons for mordians. I've got a handful of the LC and mortar teams, but they're expensive and almost impossible to find nowadays.