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Open question:

Which relic would you pick between the Order of the Iron Star of Mordian, with it's 4+ against normal and mortal wounds or Deathmask of Ollanus, with its regular 4+ inv and heal d3 wounds once? What if the commander was in a commander squad with a medipack, would that change your decision?

Isn't the Mask only a d3 heal ONCE PER GAME?

It is indeed! Thank you. That kinda puts me further to the Iron Star personally.

 slip wrote:
Open question:

Which relic would you pick between the Order of the Iron Star of Mordian, with it's 4+ against normal and mortal wounds or Deathmask of Ollanus, with its regular 4+ inv and heal d3 wounds a turn? What if the commander was in a commander squad with a medipack, would that change your decision?

Realistically, neither.

Commanders should be hiding towards the back of the army, out of line of sight if possible, and thus shouldn't need to bother with relics to increase their durability. Kurov's Aquilla and the Laurels of Command are the best choices for this. The sole alternative to this is a throwaway Commander using the Dagger of Tu'Sakh to outflank.

 MinMax wrote:
Kurov's Aquilla and the Laurels of Command are the best choices for this. The sole alternative to this is a throwaway Commander using the Dagger of Tu'Sakh to outflank.

And Relic of Lost Cadia, especially if your local club plays by RAW (like mine does) and you can use it every turn.

AstraVlad wrote:

 MinMax wrote:
Kurov's Aquilla and the Laurels of Command are the best choices for this. The sole alternative to this is a throwaway Commander using the Dagger of Tu'Sakh to outflank.

And Relic of Lost Cadia, especially if your local club plays by RAW (like mine does) and you can use it every turn.

I really can't see how any Chaos player would willingly agree to play against anyone running the RoLC that way. But hey, if they want to play the 40k equivalent of Dark Souls I guess that's on them.

AstraVlad wrote:

 MinMax wrote:
Kurov's Aquilla and the Laurels of Command are the best choices for this. The sole alternative to this is a throwaway Commander using the Dagger of Tu'Sakh to outflank.

And Relic of Lost Cadia, especially if your local club plays by RAW (like mine does) and you can use it every turn.

Well I know if somebody tries to pull that one I'll insist on assault weapons not doing anything. Hey RAW is RAW.

Hearing about people playing the Lost Relic as usable every turn makes me sad (other than as self-defense against someone being similarly abusive with the rules, but that should never be the default).

@cpcmrc - Some thoughts on your list.

Your list appears to be illegal at the moment as it only has 2 HQs in the Brigade and you need 3.

The Multilaser is a terrible weapon, finding the points for even autocannons would be a nice upgrade for your Sentinels.

Unless you really need the 72" range Conquerors are a straight upgrade over the stock Leman Russ. Given their lack of improved durability I tend to think Tank Commanders are a trap but perhaps they are working for you. If I were running this list I would throw the Conquerors (replacing the stock Lemans) in a Catachan spearhead (getting them Objective Secured) and put Punishers/Executioners/etc. in the brigade as Heavy Support.

The Shadowsword is pretty pricey with sponsons. You can buy an artillery tank or almost a Leman with their cost. Given how expensive it is that is something to think about. I would also consider throwing it in its own auxiliary detachment as Tallarn and Ambushing it if you having issues keeping it alive. You indicated you were confident in it so I am guessing no but I normally do not expect it to live long if it starts on the board.

I personally like Rough Riders for grabbing objectives in the enemy deployment zone. I have a recent battle report thread that discusses this and will have another going up soon from a tournament this week if you want to read more about that. I also use allied Imperium characters instead of Ogryn/Bullgryn as counter assault elements since they are easier to hide with the character rule.

@ Alpharius Walks
you are right...my bad I corrected it dropping laser on tank commanders and inserting a company commander
are you thinking is better have normal russes instead tank commander? the problem is no order (move or reroll d6 on turret) and ab 4+ with so many -1 to hit is like 5+ more the time
maybe i can use the stratagem for adding +1 to hit if I hurt something with cadian unit
riders or ogryn deathstar is what I m thinking right now to grab objectives or counterassault

I think it really depends on your preferences. If you can reasonably proxy it and like mass tanks I would suggest giving a spearhead of Catachan Conquerors a try just so that you can see if it appeals to you or not.

RogueApiary wrote:

I really can't see how any Chaos player would willingly agree to play against anyone running the RoLC that way. But hey, if they want to play the 40k equivalent of Dark Souls I guess that's on them.

We have a Chaos player here and he is fine with that. By the way he was able to win a match against my IG during the last tournament by castling in a big ruin and doing Maelstrom missions (though he had some luck with his cards), so this relic in not an auto-win button even against Chaos .



Automatically Appended Next Post:

cpcmrc wrote:
@ Alpharius Walks
are you thinking is better have normal russes instead tank commander? the problem is no order (move or reroll d6 on turret) and ab 4+ with so many -1 to hit is like 5+ more the time

My experience tells me that you are totally right. That 3+ BS and orders compensate for a point increase with ease. Especially if we take in the account that -1 to-hit modifiers that everyone around us can have. There is a HUGE difference between being able to hit Eldar at 4+ (or 5+ with their stratagem) or at 5+ and 6+ respectively. Tank Commanders are a way to go. Just take at least 3 of them.

 MinMax wrote:

 slip wrote:
Open question:

Which relic would you pick between the Order of the Iron Star of Mordian, with it's 4+ against normal and mortal wounds or Deathmask of Ollanus, with its regular 4+ inv and heal d3 wounds a turn? What if the commander was in a commander squad with a medipack, would that change your decision?

Realistically, neither.

Commanders should be hiding towards the back of the army, out of line of sight if possible, and thus shouldn't need to bother with relics to increase their durability. Kurov's Aquilla and the Laurels of Command are the best choices for this. The sole alternative to this is a throwaway Commander using the Dagger of Tu'Sakh to outflank.

I agree, so I'm planning on taking both the Laurels of Command and Kurov's Aquila and I'm looking to take the third relic for 3 cp. It puts me at ten overall command points at 2000, but not too worried about getting out commanded with the Aqulia. Takes a bit of the edge off competitively but I don't mind a little personality. Could I dunno, tank some small arms fire or tie up an ambushing unit a turn longer. If it's a problem down the road I can start going with Grand Strategist as my warlord trait, and if its a problem beyond that I can drop the relic entirely for competitive games since it's not really represented on the model. I like the dagger a lot if I didn't have to deploy the HQ choice with it. I just realized you can do it at the end of any of your movement phases so it's not as suicidal as I initially thought. I don't really have anything to take advantage of it in my army atm. My army list is posted over here if you're interested. (I wrote some Mordian fluff fwiw)

Technically I guess the dagger is the most protective relic we have since we could just keep the character off the board the whole game. But if a maniac on a forum held ya fake hostage which would ya choose, Deathmask or Iron Star?

E:Oh ya, Relic of Cadia is better than both. Same with Pietrov's MK 45. Auto-Requary too. Is the Blade of Conquest worthwhile? I mean, as far as guard go.

E2: Former ork player getting back into the game and finally making that guard army I always wanted. Hello, hi.

So I'm a new guard player starting up a Mordian army. Looks like I'm gonna have to convert my plasma guns. Any other suggestions of stuff I should be kitbashing off the start? I love the look of the Mordians so taking the doctrine is no sweat for me. Are scout sentinels worth anything any more? I was thinking heavy bolters on them with HK missiles.

No heavy bolters available as wargear for sentinels. Go Autocannon or Heavy Flamer

Nuck Fewton wrote:
So I'm a new guard player starting up a Mordian army. Looks like I'm gonna have to convert my plasma guns. Any other suggestions of stuff I should be kitbashing off the start? I love the look of the Mordians so taking the doctrine is no sweat for me. Are scout sentinels worth anything any more? I was thinking heavy bolters on them with HK missiles.

The Mordian rules don't really push towards or away from anything. Getting +1 to overwatch is nice, but probably won't really make a difference in most games. What they do have is one of the best strategems and orders, and a relic that allows your company commander to scrap a little bit.

I would run plenty of infantry squads with plasma, and use Firing Squad to pick out enemy characters with extreme prejudice. Just be careful about keeping your tanks too close together. +1 overwatch is nice, but it's better to not have two tanks tied up in combat anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slip wrote:

Technically I guess the dagger is the most protective relic we have since we could just keep the character off the board the whole game. But if a maniac on a forum held ya fake hostage which would ya choose, Deathmask or Iron Star?

E:Oh ya, Relic of Cadia is better than both. Same with Pietrov's MK 45. Auto-Requary too. Is the Blade of Conquest worthwhile? I mean, as far as guard go.

I'd say Iron Star. If you're serious about your character getting into combat, he'll likely face mortal wounds, which is where the Iron Star really shines. Also, CCs have a 5++ base, so you'll be bouncing 2/3 of all wounds he takes, and 1/2 of all mortal wounds.

And the blade of conquest is great, it's just a combat weapon on a WS 3+, 3 attack model, so.... I always buy one of my officers a power sword so I have the option to buy an extra relic with CP and run it. It's fun when you get the chance!

Nuck Fewton wrote:
So I'm a new guard player starting up a Mordian army. Looks like I'm gonna have to convert my plasma guns. Any other suggestions of stuff I should be kitbashing off the start? I love the look of the Mordians so taking the doctrine is no sweat for me. Are scout sentinels worth anything any more? I was thinking heavy bolters on them with HK missiles.

What Polonious said. I also add plasma pistols and a power sword to my infantry. It's probably too many points, but the idea is that I capitalize on the overwatch buff and make assaulting me as expensive as possible for the enemy. Won't make a difference in a game on its own, but if it chips off one or two extra models, it's a drop in the bucket toward making a difference.

I would not keep tanks together unless you are absolutely positive nothing can get to you in TWO turns, not just next turn. The cost of having multiple tanks shut down is just too much.

Something I daydream about but have never actually tried is putting a 3 plasma veteran squad and a platoon commander into a Valkyrie and doing some character hunting. It would probably not get you your points back, but it sounds cool in my head.

Far as modelling goes, if you're not married to "GW pieces only", buy the plasma gun five pack from GW's website, and then buy Victoria Miniatures not-Mordians. They should fit once you cut the SM hands off the plasma guns, and those are resin now, so it's much easier than it used to be.

If you are married to GW, then it becomes a lot harder. Best idea I've seen is to cut the gun off the guy running forward with his gun raised straight up (I think he has a bayonet) and replace that gun with the plasma. I've never tried it though, so I don't know how hard it is to actually do. I do not envy needing to do this.

Got my first game in 8th ed vs tau codex. He had fairly relaxed army. Think mine was more competive though still not maximized I think. I had:

Cadian brigade with 2 company commanders(one power sword, one warlord with both CP boosting things) and primaris psyker(-1 to hit plus mortal wound on 2+, 3+ etc). . commisar, platoon commander, special weapon squad with 3 plasma. 4 infantry squad with flamer+autocannon, 3 squads with lascannon+plasma. Sentinel with autocannon, 2 hellhounds, 2 leman russ with 3 heavy bolters and manticore. Also tempestrum patrol with prime(with staff due to WYSIWYG) and 6 scions with 2 plasma gun.

He had roughly 2 suit commanders w/2 flamers and 2 melta each, several min sized fire warrior squads, 3 gun drone squadrons, marker drone squadron, pathfinders, 2 hammerheads with railguns, 3 crisis suits with something, ethereal and fireblade(?).

Overall low on AT as he had mentioned before. I didn't instantly load up on tanks. My list was actually set up before he mentioned so no tooling up.

He had forgotten tons of stuff at home. Maelstrom objective cards so we went for open war getting fairly boring scenario. THE basic deployment, kill points by PL and immune to morality(which hurt him as...well IG isn't moral heavy and his sept gave him +1LD!). I offered redraw, he decline.

He also had forgotten like 40 firewarriors at home so he had to resort to borrowing my IG's Good thing I had brought tons of extra with me! So with various random models including Yarric as fireblade it looked more like IG civil war Haha. Well it was that or cancel game! Deployment was crazy as I had more stuff than I had on league so more things to worry and he had sooooo much stuff on deep strike I had trouble figuring out what to do since he could hide. We both rolled 6 for first turn but as I had like 2 or 3 drops more it was easy enough for him to get first turn.

Now first turn for me was DISASTER. Both hammerheads fired at manticore and blew it up sky high. Drones and commanders deep striked ahead my army. Commanders shoot at hellhound. With 4 meltas he got 2 through. Then BOOOM another tank went up. Bunch of IG guys dead. In return I stood back and brought in scions between drones and hammerheads(there was barely wide enough strip of land between them) and I fired mostly at the tanks and.........5 wounds to one by scions. I fired 3 lascannons at them and got 3 hits, 3 wounds and...He rolled 3 6's to save. Leman russ failed to do anything. At this point I was sure I was toast especially as commanders would be free to move.

However his 2nd turn wasn't as disasterous. He hurt both of my russes and wiped scions but overall fairly light. In return I blew out hammerhead and cleared drones from commanders surrounding enough for special weapon squad to have moved inside ruin out of LOS next to them and blow up dead. Leman russ finished up second one. This was fairly major blow to him obviously.

Turn 3 he put one russ into 2nd damage bracket nearly to the last one and was killing my poor infantry left and right. However in my turn I managed to cripple his hammerhead that was on last bracket and killed lots of firewarriors especially with the hellhound that finally got into range. At this point he surrendered not seeing way to deal with my russ in 9 wounds, russ in 4 wounds, intact hellhound and remnants of my infantry.

I think it might have been BIT too early. I would have tried to shoot the russ with 4 wounds with crippled hammerhead. If it can hit&wound it will get into last bracket FOR SURE if not be blown up. Russ hitting on 6+ isn't much of a threat. 2nd russ isn't quickly getting LOS to the hammerhead. Albeit 2 of my lascannons were having clear sight but that's what firewarriors are there for. As for hellhound charge it up with 3 crisis suits. For all it's 2d6 auto hits on overwatch it's still just S6 -1 D1 hits. Not likely to wipe out or even heavily damage crisis suits and that prevents shooting at least and as fliers he can on his turn fall back, shoot and charge if he feels like. My best option then is fall back, not shoot and trust russes to deal with crisis suits before they hit russ back.

Maybe not work and if hammerhead miss fail for sure but at least some chance.

I think I need to rethink my CP need. I had 12 but recycling+get from enemy strategems. Using overlapping fields twice and rerolls every phase I had chance(except one psychic phase) and I still had 10 at the end of the game. Either I need to get some CP hungry allies(blood angels?) or not have this much CP or it's generation. Drop either heirloom or warlord trait.

Nuck Fewton wrote:
So I'm a new guard player starting up a Mordian army. Looks like I'm gonna have to convert my plasma guns. Any other suggestions of stuff I should be kitbashing off the start? I love the look of the Mordians so taking the doctrine is no sweat for me. Are scout sentinels worth anything any more? I was thinking heavy bolters on them with HK missiles.

Scout sentinels with autocannons and HK's have done decent work for me, fairly cheap and they're capable of knocking a couple of wounds off most things while not being threatening enough to get shot quickly provided you have other vehicles in play that you're opponent will probably want to shoot first. Main reason to take them remains the anti deepstrike bubble of course but if you've got the points to spare they're not a bad choice.

I just have a hard time justifying sentinels when so many lists that do deep strike shenanigans have ways to beat it. Heck even ratlings shut it down and the ratlings ability isn't even that good compared to scouts or ravenguard/alpha legion style infiltrate

Polonius wrote:

Nuck Fewton wrote:
So I'm a new guard player starting up a Mordian army. Looks like I'm gonna have to convert my plasma guns. Any other suggestions of stuff I should be kitbashing off the start? I love the look of the Mordians so taking the doctrine is no sweat for me. Are scout sentinels worth anything any more? I was thinking heavy bolters on them with HK missiles.

The Mordian rules don't really push towards or away from anything. Getting +1 to overwatch is nice, but probably won't really make a difference in most games. What they do have is one of the best strategems and orders, and a relic that allows your company commander to scrap a little bit.

I would run plenty of infantry squads with plasma, and use Firing Squad to pick out enemy characters with extreme prejudice. Just be careful about keeping your tanks too close together. +1 overwatch is nice, but it's better to not have two tanks tied up in combat anyway.

what about keeping sentinels next to the tanks. You get the overwatch bonus but don't risk two russes' getting locked up?

Looking for advice: How do I deploy against Drukhari?

Tomorrow I've got my first game commanding AM and I'm a bit lost when it comes to deployment. I expect an aggressive Drukhari force with lots of mobility. These are the top of my head questions, but any advice is welcome.

- Tanks in parking lot formation side by side, so they can be wrapped together? Or spread out so they don't get multi charged?

- Bubble wrap with 5"+ distance to stop assaulters from consolidating in? Or bubble wrap in tighter formation so flyers can't fit?

- Hug a corner for maximum distance? Even if it means I can't reach objectives? (Maelstrom missions)

- Any tips and tricks for how to deploy/advance scout sentinels?

- Any other good advice or warnings?

Cheers!

Here is a question I have.

I'm trying to decide how should outfit my Heavy Weapon Teams.

I can't decide between 3 Mortars, 2 Mortars and LC, 3 HBs, or 2 HBs and a LC or a Mix.

Mortars are cheapest, great range, don't need line of sight and are good for denying deepstrike but have a very weak punch with only S4 and no ap.

Heavy bolters pack much more of a punch with S5 AP -1 and a consistent 3 shots. But it will cost 9 to 12 points more per squad (Depending on if I run the mortars as Cadian or Elysian) , as a bit shorter range, and require LOS.

Sprinkling in lascannons just seems good for dealing with heavy vehicles but they are relatively expensive.

So what are others thoughts on how they run their heavy weapon teams.

Khadorstompy wrote:

So what are others thoughts on how they run their heavy weapon teams.

Forget about LCs and take mortars. I like to take HBs in the infantry squads (a matter of personal taste) but for HWTs mortars are a no-brainer.

AstraVlad wrote:

Khadorstompy wrote:

So what are others thoughts on how they run their heavy weapon teams.

Forget about LCs and take mortars. I like to take HBs in the infantry squads (a matter of personal taste) but for HWTs mortars are a no-brainer.

Just not worth it? I'm running a bunch of Deep striking plasma as pretty much the rest of my army. Might work some manticores in might not.

Khadorstompy wrote:

Just not worth it?

You mean LCs? They cost a lot, hit on 4+ or in many cases even 5+ (though you can use Cadian order to get re-rolls) and are VERY easy to kill. Mortars can be kept out of LOS and HBs are not such a big threat to attract heavy fire, but LCs will be dead turn one if your opponent will be worried about them. And they are useless against a lot of popular armies built around un-targetable characters covered by chuff units. You really do not want to trade D6 (or 3) shots for one in this case.

Yeah lascannon are better in other units and platforms. You either want infantry squads, where you're paying 60pts for a 10 wound lascannon, or on more sturdy platforms like Leman Russe's. Regardless, Lascannon need to be used in masse to guarantee results. Just sprinkling in 1 or 2 won't help, I usually need 10-15 across my army to be sure they'll take out what they need to. Usually you're just fishing for one or two to get through so you can CP the damage roll. As the game goes on the last few lascannon pull more and more weight as both sides slug it out.

They're bad on HWS's though because they're so easy to target. Even in a pure infantry army you'll notice people just shoot them with AT weapons. In a more armored list they'll get hit by mortars, bolters, and other light weapons with nothing better to shoot. That's why you keep HWS's cheap, they're paper thin and can be targeted easily. A 33pt HWS is great, since it's a low investment for a solid return. A x3 lascannon pushes that into the 70pt range, which makes them way too tempting as targets.

You can consolidate a HWT with an Infantry Squad for 4 lascannons with 16 wounds and benefit even more from orders if it looks like the enemy has a bead on your valuable HWT. It's a super useful strategem in general.

 slip wrote:
You can consolidate a HWT with an Infantry Squad for 4 lascannons with 16 wounds and benefit even more from orders if it looks like the enemy has a bead on your valuable HWT. It's a super useful strategem in general.

Uhh no you can't. Consolidate squad only works on infantry squad, the unit, not key word INFANTRY.

My bad. That part was slighlty confusing.

Someone at GW spent a LONG time talking about the values of arguably the worst unit in the guard codex...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/13/much-ado-about-deathstrikes-apr-12gw-homepage-post-3/