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Shinzra wrote:
Ah right ok, so the books willl allow me to use my 30k legion army in 40k 8th edition then?

Cheers

No. It allows you to use SOME vehicles like sicarans in your 40k army. For legion army you will be missing every single infantry unit rule, row's, legion tactics etc.

If you were able to use it in 40k before you can use it in 8th ed.

Shinzra wrote:
Ah right ok, so the books willl allow me to use my 30k legion army in 40k 8th edition then?

Cheers

No. If you want to use it like a Legion army, you have to stick playing 7ed like currently.

The index books are to replace the Imperial Armour books - FW make tons of models for 40k that aren't anything to do with the Horus Heresy (like Elysian Drop Sentinels) and lots of their Heresy-era stuff is also available in 40k as 'relics' (like Sicarans and Fellblades). The aindex books contain the 8ed 40k rules for those models.

You could use the Index books and the Space Marine book to field your 30k models, but you wouldn't have the special units or primary's and obviously no rites of war. You'd be playing a 40k space marine army, just with 30k models.

The governing assumption here seems to be that FW not telling us *anything* about the future of 30k now that 8th edition is coming out means that they will be keeping it 7th for now and then releasing an 8th edition book later on, and pages 3 and 4 of this thread confirms this, but I’d like to probe another possibility that has me uncomfortable (I hope I’m wrong, but I need some reassurance). The disturbing rumor I have come across (from a close friend who is much deeper into games workshop stuff than I am) is that GW will be taking select pieces of 30k over from FW, and that this is why 30k is not being put on the front burner by FW currently, since they have not decided exactly what its future will be and how much will be released as generally available GW stuff. How likely is it that GW, and not FW, will at some point print generally available 30k rules as an alternative to or perhaps even as something fully compatible with 40k? What if *many* Forgeworld-exclusive models will be released in plastic by GW in the coming year just like the Nurgle drone… the Spartan, being one of their most popular vehicles, is likely going to be one of them, my friend surmises. I mean… I hope not, but I’m wondering if anybody has heard any news on 30k… why has all official mention of the rules for 30k disappeared, and why has Forgeworld not sent an announcement to reassure 30k players, who honesty spend a tremendous amount on their products?

MKachen wrote:
The governing assumption here seems to be that FW not telling us *anything* about the future of 30k now that 8th edition is coming out means that they will be keeping it 7th for now and then releasing an 8th edition book later on, and pages 3 and 4 of this thread confirms this, but I’d like to probe another possibility that has me uncomfortable (I hope I’m wrong, but I need some reassurance). The disturbing rumor I have come across (from a close friend who is much deeper into games workshop stuff than I am) is that GW will be taking select pieces of 30k over from FW, and that this is why 30k is not being put on the front burner by FW currently, since they have not decided exactly what its future will be and how much will be released as generally available GW stuff. How likely is it that GW, and not FW, will at some point print generally available 30k rules as an alternative to or perhaps even as something fully compatible with 40k? What if *many* Forgeworld-exclusive models will be released in plastic by GW in the coming year just like the Nurgle drone… the Spartan, being one of their most popular vehicles, is likely going to be one of them, my friend surmises. I mean… I hope not, but I’m wondering if anybody has heard any news on 30k… why has all official mention of the rules for 30k disappeared, and why has Forgeworld not sent an announcement to reassure 30k players, who honesty spend a tremendous amount on their products?

I'm not sure that I follow you here. FW is GW. The FW index books will give us 8th edition 40K rules for many FW kits generally associated with 30K. The line between 30K and 40K KITS is blurring even as FW sticks with 7th edition for now for the 30K GAME. And I think we'll see more of this, because eventually the 30K Mechanicum kits will probably get 40K rules as well.

Regarding GW plastic kits, I think a plastic Spartan would make a lot of sense as a future plastic kit, and it'd be great for 30K and 40K players. Just like plastic Mk. 3 and 4 armor has been.

I think the reason there hasn't been more information is because that mock-up of a book cover they showed had no other supporting pages - i think that they haven't even started working on it yet, just releasing the cover to reassure us which edition it was going to be based on and that our book collections are all still valid/useful for gaming.

Assuming that - if we have ideas for things to be kept/changed/introduced, now is the time to put them in an e-mail and send it in!

@Gorgon

I meant that my concern is that new 40k releases might end up cannibalizing existing 30k kits. I don't mean like in the sense of the marines or contemptor in Calth or the stuff in Prospero, b/c 1) the marines in those boxes are upgradable with FW heads, torsos, and shoulder pads, and 2) the contemptor and the terminators don't nearly have the level of detail possessed by the corresponding FW products. My concern is that, like the drone in the new set, GW will release generally available, plastic kits that *replace* older FW kits, and that the lag in official updates to 30k is in part helping to make that more of a possibility. I say this b/c I didn't mind 30k stuff being officially 'compatible' (though occasionally broken) with 40k stuff, while I really really like the fluff/ lore-level separation b/w 30k and 40k in 7th. So, it frustrates me when ancient vaults are said to be opened and ancient technology 're-emerges' along with Roboute Guilliman if that ancient technology will just end up being plastic kits of the FW models that many of us already have.

Did calth models replace fw models? Nope. Still available

So, are the two red books currently available safe to buy ?
They won't be updated soon ?
And if I buy the ebooks, they will be updates anyway, won't they ?

Red books should be safe. New book will come out as the replacement for 7th.

Some ebooks get updated but dunno if FW do that.

 godardc wrote:
So, are the two red books currently available safe to buy ?
They won't be updated soon ?
And if I buy the ebooks, they will be updates anyway, won't they ?

Yes, current red books are safe. FW will be releasing a new redbook that has the 7th edition rules, so Marine armies will require 3 red books to play now. Last rumor I heard is maybe August?

 djones520 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
So, are the two red books currently available safe to buy ?
They won't be updated soon ?
And if I buy the ebooks, they will be updates anyway, won't they ?

Yes, current red books are safe. FW will be releasing a new redbook that has the 7th edition rules, so Marine armies will require 3 red books to play now. Last rumor I heard is maybe August?

Which means don't bother and none of the books are safe. The game is dead until it updates to 8th.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
So, are the two red books currently available safe to buy ?
They won't be updated soon ?
And if I buy the ebooks, they will be updates anyway, won't they ?

Yes, current red books are safe. FW will be releasing a new redbook that has the 7th edition rules, so Marine armies will require 3 red books to play now. Last rumor I heard is maybe August?

Which means don't bother and none of the books are safe. The game is dead until it updates to 8th.

Or in better shape than ever and that it could have been in 8th.

 godardc wrote:
So, are the two red books currently available safe to buy ?
They won't be updated soon ?
And if I buy the ebooks, they will be updates anyway, won't they ?

The whole point of FW sticking with 7ed is so that they don't have to update the red army books, since they don't have the manpower at the moment.

So they should be safe to buy, and don't expect any updates any time soon!

I'm also of the opinion that the game is dead until the eventual 8ed conversion, it's just that this might be a few years. In the mean time, we're working on some of our own rules - http://heresy30k.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/10142-playing-heresy-in-8th-format/

Well, I think 'dead' is a little dramatic. It could be 'dead to you', of course.

Personally, I think it's a game very much in a holding pattern, and that's not a good place to be in business. 30K is simply not going to have player growth by sticking with a system that no one else will be playing anymore. The crossover appeal was an important part of the game for many people, and this drives the game into even more of a niche. And whether one likes it or not, 8th edition is going to be very successful and will probably pull some 30K players back to 40K. There may be some migration to 30K by 40K players who prefer 7th edition, but the catch there is that 30K strips out some of the uniquely 7th edition items that people may be attracted to.

An interesting question is whether slower growth or even a decline is automatically a bad thing from FW's perspective. They've always been a boutique, and seemed to have a difficult time keeping up with the demand for 30K even with the late Alan Bligh leading them. Maybe they'll be happier and better able to please a smaller group of heresy and resin addicts going forward rather than the wider audiences that the plastics brought in.

The thing i'm noticing is that the people who like the idea of a custom ruleset to finally fix that un-hittable magnus etc don't seem to feel the need to express it unless confronted with a wall of negativity, doom and gloom from the people who jumped into 8th with both feet first.

I think 8 had potential, but the idea died in the execution - they tried to 'get rid of deathstars' and just made them bigger; they declared that every vehicle was an assault vehicle but then decided that you can only disembark at the start of the movement phase, effectively making every vehicle a non-assault vehicle; this is just what i've been paying attention to (and i haven't been looking) but i know there are a whole load more ripe absurdities (check out crabblesworths 8th edition sample batrep)

I know they are committing to a yearly FAQ, but to me that means they will come up with a half-baked idea, slap it in the FAQ and wait for us poor schmucks to point out the failures - and then 'fix' it a year later..
40k needed the 8th edition to get rid of formations and take the psychic phase (and the powers themselves) back to what it was in 6th, not removing the 'initiative' value from the game!

I recon FW will bring back the 6th edition version of invisibility - a pain to deal with, but handleable.

8th ed would struggle a lot with several legions. Emperor's Children(I went away), night lords(LD changed dramatically), Sons of Horus(the most reliable reserve masters...Except now that's gone. Can't be more reliable than 100%!). Thousand sons would be in trouble with matched play with rule of 1 in play.

Then all sort of oddities like volkite chargers becoming 15" stand still&shoot eliter killer kind of gun. Laser destroyer also changed feel.

They really aren't a problem so long as you don't apply 7th edition thinking to 8th edition. Maybe EC could get a Legion-specific strategem that works like Counter-Offensive but costs only 1 CP. For SoH, there are many different 'flavors' of 'deep strike' in 8th that could inspire a unique rule. And for NL, there are rules that have fear-like effects in 8th...Chaos Raptors, Tyranids' The Horror psychic power, etc.

All Legions can *certainly* be handled in 8th edition in a flavorful way. Certain things wouldn't translate without effort and wouldn't operate in exactly the same way. But that was the case for even the least impactful edition changes in 40K. The issue isn't with rules writing, but with playtesting. That would take FW some time.

 gorgon wrote:
They really aren't a problem so long as you don't apply 7th edition thinking to 8th edition. Maybe EC could get a Legion-specific strategem that works like Counter-Offensive but costs only 1 CP. For SoH, there are many different 'flavors' of 'deep strike' in 8th that could inspire a unique rule. And for NL, there are rules that have fear-like effects in 8th...Chaos Raptors, Tyranids' The Horror psychic power, etc.

What on earth Sons of Horus can get? Everybody is 100% coming when they want and where they want. You can't improve on that. Different flavours but all are same with different name. And not much variety to be had when you arrive when you want where you want.

And gee. Fun if your ability is one you only get couple times in a game due to costing limited resources.

So, if they update the game in august, they will they print new red books ? If so, I should wait

 godardc wrote:
So, if they update the game in august, they will they print new red books ? If so, I should wait

No... Red Books are not changing. It's just a new rule book, since the old one isn't available anymore. This rule book with be a streamlined 7th edition. Cleaning it up basically. The current red books are still valid, and expected to be valid until further notice.

tneva82 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
They really aren't a problem so long as you don't apply 7th edition thinking to 8th edition. Maybe EC could get a Legion-specific strategem that works like Counter-Offensive but costs only 1 CP. For SoH, there are many different 'flavors' of 'deep strike' in 8th that could inspire a unique rule. And for NL, there are rules that have fear-like effects in 8th...Chaos Raptors, Tyranids' The Horror psychic power, etc.

What on earth Sons of Horus can get? Everybody is 100% coming when they want and where they want. You can't improve on that. Different flavours but all are same with different name. And not much variety to be had when you arrive when you want where you want.

And gee. Fun if your ability is one you only get couple times in a game due to costing limited resources.

Ridiculous. Initiative isn't the only thing that defines the EC, and if it was, then they should be jettisoned alongside the 2nd and 11th. In fact, I'll take it a step further and say that FW's representation of them isn't particularly imaginative and therefore was bound to suffer in any translation. They could use some revisiting anyway.

Regarding deep strike options, things like Trygon tunnels and Cult Ambush show that there's plenty of room to do different things. If you can't apply a little imagination here, then we really can't have a conversation about it.

 SirDonlad wrote:
The thing i'm noticing is that the people who like the idea of a custom ruleset to finally fix that un-hittable magnus etc don't seem to feel the need to express it unless confronted with a wall of negativity, doom and gloom from the people who jumped into 8th with both feet first.

I think 8 had potential, but the idea died in the execution - they tried to 'get rid of deathstars' and just made them bigger; they declared that every vehicle was an assault vehicle but then decided that you can only disembark at the start of the movement phase, effectively making every vehicle a non-assault vehicle; this is just what i've been paying attention to (and i haven't been looking) but i know there are a whole load more ripe absurdities (check out crabblesworths 8th edition sample batrep)

I know they are committing to a yearly FAQ, but to me that means they will come up with a half-baked idea, slap it in the FAQ and wait for us poor schmucks to point out the failures - and then 'fix' it a year later..
40k needed the 8th edition to get rid of formations and take the psychic phase (and the powers themselves) back to what it was in 6th, not removing the 'initiative' value from the game!

I recon FW will bring back the 6th edition version of invisibility - a pain to deal with, but handleable.

Normal human models disembark 9". They trade 3 inches for being able to assault out of anything. Faster models don't even lose that.

You actually don't know what a deathstar is do you? A unit that does a bunch of damage and has reroll to hit/to wound isn't a deathstar. A unit that has all that and a 2++ rerollable invul with a 2+ FNP (99.5% damage resistance and no, it's not that hard to get. You can even invis on top of that.) is a deathstar. The deathstar is dead.

It kinda sounds like you're just parroting someone else who was wrong tbh.

ERJAK wrote:

You actually don't know what a deathstar is do you?

Been playing this game since 2nd edition dude, I saw the deathstar being built and then attacked and destroyed by the rebel fleet.

ERJAK wrote:
A unit that does a bunch of damage and has reroll to hit/to wound isn't a deathstar.

Nice strawman - but it still doesn't look like the real thing. Heres 4chans take on a deathstar..

A Deathstar unit is a unit in a wargame that is maxed out to be as powerful as possible within the game mechanics. This is normally a massive points sink, but is insanely powerful. The unit is typically maxed out by taking a powerful unit and adding one or more characters who can buff the unit even further. Normally only passive modifications are used, with short term buffs being too unreliable. Not all armies can field death star units.

The important part of that being how abilities and buffs are handed around willy-nilly; all helped by the 'look out sir' wound trading mechanic to keep those ability-traders in the fight.

ERJAK wrote:
A unit that has all that and a 2++ rerollable invul with a 2+ FNP (99.5% damage resistance and no, it's not that hard to get. You can even invis on top of that.) is a deathstar.

No that is the ultimate deathstar; there are plenty other deathstars out there that don't hit at quite the same level of fromagé.
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/07/goatboys-40k-deathstar-whos-who.html

ERJAK wrote:
The deathstar is dead.

When the thing that made deathstars was the unit buffs and wounds trading mechanic, making the buffs an area effect and resigning look out sir to an automatic feature of having certain infantry units nearby; the deathstar got much, much, much bigger - it involves multiple units now!!

ERJAK wrote:
It kinda sounds like you're just parroting someone else who was wrong tbh.

Could say the exact same thing right back at you!

 djones520 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
So, if they update the game in august, they will they print new red books ? If so, I should wait

No... Red Books are not changing. It's just a new rule book, since the old one isn't available anymore. This rule book with be a streamlined 7th edition. Cleaning it up basically. The current red books are still valid, and expected to be valid until further notice.

Ok fine, thank you very much.

I got to have a look through Index Imperium 1 and 2 yesterday and was very pleased to see that none of the units in them had anything like the 'look out sir' rule in their profile - All the imperial deathstar-type arrangements have been slightly blunted. i like.

I really hope it's just those T'au drones which do that

feth, what am i saying?!?

The Marine Company Veterans have a LoS-esque rule in 8th.

Ah, balls.

I'm really trying hard to like 8th, the keywords thing had some merit for the fluff player, but i hear there's an exploit in that too.

I also like the removal of TL, but that created some ott loadouts which i assume spurred the dropping of single unit targeting in the shooting phase.

 SirDonlad wrote:

I'm really trying hard to like 8th, the keywords thing had some merit for the fluff player, but i hear there's an exploit in that too.

If you're thinking of that "my chaos <Legion> is called Blood Angels, and my IG <Regiment> is called Blood Angels, so they're all Blood Angels with Blood Angels" nonsense, then GW already slapped that down and others like it like a game of whack-a-mole.

I do kinda love the whole "30K is dead if it doesn't go 8th!" thing especially if it's coming from folk who hopped on board with the plastic kits or folk who almost always played 30K armies against 40K opponents(ie, they didn't actually play 30K, they played 40K with a FW army list).

30K will do just fine - it did fine before FW actually made the HH rules, it did fine before GW bothered to produce plastics, and it will continue to do fine until FW eventually decide whether to shift to 8th-based rules or stick with their own 7th-based system. A lot of individuals who bought-in to Heresy as a subset of 40K rather than its own thing will end up screwed over, and obviously that sucks, but Heresy gaming overall isn't going anywhere.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:

I'm really trying hard to like 8th, the keywords thing had some merit for the fluff player, but i hear there's an exploit in that too.

If you're thinking of that "my chaos <Legion> is called Blood Angels, and my IG <Regiment> is called Blood Angels, so they're all Blood Angels with Blood Angels" nonsense, then GW already slapped that down and others like it like a game of whack-a-mole.

That sounds about right - apart from the bit where GW did something promptly; i don't believe it for a second! It must have been some staffer going rogue or something..