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Does anyone else feel this way? They finaly got something going for them with an extra wound, and then the primaris REDACTED - Not an acceptable word here on Dakka, and no trying to get around the filter - Lorek marines are released making the poor temie obscure yet again after only a week of glory (and they never had the chanse to show it on the battlefield before it even happened.)

Or maybe GW will make primaris terminators with 3 wounds.

You do realise we haven't seen any terminator stats fully, right?

I'm hoping that terminators get 3+ on 2D6, and a in built 5+ invulnerable against really nasty stuff, with 2 wounds and 2 attacks, with some very near guns and CC stuff.

But, it's too early to tell. Wait until release, then make your judgement.

Plus, Terminators can probably still deep strike without a pod. Depending on how the new rules look, this is potentially a very powerful skill.

Terminators are not getting a 2d6 save, per GW. They might be getting a keyword that allows them to ignore negative AP modifiers, which was implied but not clarified.

SJ

Given how AoS handled 'ignore AP' I'd expect them to have "ignore -1 AP" rather than "ignore all AP".

It could be a situation where the Crux terminatus allows them to ignore the first ap level of a weapon (say a lascannon becomes ap-2)

Then stormshields can give an invul save that grants the 3+ it does now without invalidating the original save.

In AOS a save can get to 1+ meaning it cannot fail and the enemy needs a rending weapon in order to hurt the unit.

If that carries over (and the new storm bolter lives up to the hype) a square of terminators rolling through a city will be almost impossible to crack open. Kind of like they should work on a battlefield according to the lore...

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
You do realise we haven't seen any terminator stats fully, right?

I'm hoping that terminators get 3+ on 2D6, and a in built 5+ invulnerable against really nasty stuff, with 2 wounds and 2 attacks, with some very near guns and CC stuff.

But, it's too early to tell. Wait until release, then make your judgement.

We have seen their statlines and PLEASE you can make fairly damn good estimations. Any idea of 3+ on 2d6 fails on two fronts. 1) we know save is 2+ 2) you REALLY think GW would make you save their wounds one by one when they are removing tons of rules to make things faster?

"Okay I just shot at your terminators. Make 20 saves"

"roll"
"roll"
"roll"
...repeat 15 times
*roll*
*roll*
*phew it's done*

Isn't the Invulerable Save supposed to be the worst the save can go, e.g. a 5+ invuln means your save can never be worse than 5+ (barring mortal wounds)?

In any event, I think Terminators will still have a place, we need to see the full rules for both them and the various types of Primaris Marines before jumping to conclusions.

FudgeDumper wrote:
Does anyone else feel this way? They finaly got something going for them with an extra wound, and then the primaris marines are released making the poor temie obscure yet again after only a week of glory (and they never had the chanse to show it on the battlefield before it even happened.)

Or maybe GW will make primaris terminators with 3 wounds.

Hey dude.

Have a look at the Primaris again.

Only thing they really have over standard Maureens is an extra wound, and an extra attack in terms of stats, and a longer ranged rifle with an armour modifier. But, they don't get any special or heavy weapons within the squad we've seen.

Terminators? They've got a better save over Primaris. That's not be sniffed at. Against small arms fire with no armour modifiers (as most are likely to be, given the vaunted Bolter doesn't have one) that makes them twice as survivable as a Primaris straight out the gate, as they fail armour 1 in 6 times, as opposed to 1 in 3. Then they've got, y'know....Powerfists. And will have access to heavy weapons and specialist close combat weapons. So....more durable, and better offensive options.

If you think that's an 'eff u', I'd suggest you see a Doctor about that dodgy knee-jerk you've got going on.

Let's do some assumptions here - let's assume termis still have a 2+ and a 5++ (although I imagine this is pretty useless on all but ap -4 weapons unless invulnerables are an extra save rather than an 'instead of' save).
Against non ap weapons they are 4 times as durable than a normal marine and twice as durable than a numarine.
Against ap -1 weapons they are 267% as durable than a normal marine and 133% as durable than a numarine.
Against ap -2 weapons they are three times as durable than a normal marine and 150% as durable as a numarine.
Against ap -3 weapons they are 4 times as durable as a normal marine and twice as durable as a numarine.
Against ap-4 weapons they are three times as durable as a normal marine and 150% as durable as a numarine (due to the 5++).

(Note I am using the word 'as' not 'more', therefore being 100% as durable as something else means they are equal in durability)

Ap -1 weapons are the ideal weapons to target 2+ saves with when you have a choice between shooting 2+ and 3+ funnily enough.

IF terminators have the 2+ and 5++ it means they are to numarines what they were to normal marines in 7th, and they will have got exponentially better when compared to normal marines.
(If the save is twice as good and they have twice as many wounds, the scale factor is squared, in a straight case this will be x4 whereas before it was just x2 when they had 1 wound).

I have a sneaking suspicion that invulnerables will be layered saves as they are pretty useless to moderate to high save armies, unless being shot at by what was an ap1 fun in 7th, even more so with mortal wounds ignoring them. If this is the case it makes termis even better.

Something needs to be done about storm bolters though.

Edited for Chinese spell check auto changing stuff first time round.

tneva82 wrote:

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
You do realise we haven't seen any terminator stats fully, right?

I'm hoping that terminators get 3+ on 2D6, and a in built 5+ invulnerable against really nasty stuff, with 2 wounds and 2 attacks, with some very near guns and CC stuff.

But, it's too early to tell. Wait until release, then make your judgement.

We have seen their statlines and PLEASE you can make fairly damn good estimations. Any idea of 3+ on 2d6 fails on two fronts. 1) we know save is 2+ 2) you REALLY think GW would make you save their wounds one by one when they are removing tons of rules to make things faster?

"Okay I just shot at your terminators. Make 20 saves"

"roll"
"roll"
"roll"
...repeat 15 times
*roll*
*roll*
*phew it's done*

To be fair this has been done since 5th Edition. Unless GW makes it compulsary to roll all dice of a type together, there will always be people who do this regardless.

tneva82 wrote:


We have seen their statlines and

...stop.

We've only seen this.



Do YOU know what additional rules they have?

Can they ignore 1 point of AP penalty? 2? All?

Can they take 2 heavy weapons per 5 man squad?

Can they deepstrike without error?

To build on what Kronk is saying, we don't even know their Storm Bolter rules. They may get 4 shots for all we know.

And Space Wolf Termies may be able to have one heavy weapon for each model. It's not unprecedented.

My guess is that since combi-bolters are just rapid fire 2 bolters, storm will be something like r24 assault2 s4 ap0 dam2. And if terminators ignore AP or invulns stack on armor, then th/ss are going to be invincible. Being effectively a re-rollable 3+ would be, well... now that I think about it, basically par for the course for loyalist updates. They get a thing chaos had, while chaos itself loses it i.e. dark blade > relic blade.

Also worth noting that the multimelta got an incredibly significant price hike. This could indicate that the pricing of high armour reduction weapons and multiwound weapons will ensure armies are not completely overrun with them. Or it could be because you can now move and shoot with a multimelta making it significantly better (ask any Skyhammer player - also why MMs are 20pts not 10pts on a speeder currently). We just don't know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

StarHunter25 wrote:
My guess is that since combi-bolters are just rapid fire 2 bolters, storm will be something like r24 assault2 s4 ap0 dam2. And if terminators ignore AP or invulns stack on armor, then th/ss are going to be invincible. Being effectively a re-rollable 3+ would be, well... now that I think about it, basically par for the course for loyalist updates. They get a thing chaos had, while chaos itself loses it i.e. dark blade > relic blade.

If invulns do stack, I highly doubt that 3++ will be common at all. If they don't stack, there is barely any point in normal termis having a 5++.

 kronk wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


We have seen their statlines and

...stop.

We've only seen this.

Note how I said we have seen stat line. I didnt' say we have seen special rules.

Maybe read what I say before saying stop claiming I said something I didn't?

He claimed they might have 3+ on 2d6. Your paste already shows that's blatantly wrong. And frankly whole 2d6 idea is dead on arrival as anybody could see with little logical thinking. After simplifying rules like hell they will NOT make you roll saves one at a time. Reroll is most they will give as you don't need to roll them one at a time.

his name isnt fudgedumper for no reason...
good job troll.

I am hoping they just have Terminator squads with the ability to mix and match cc and missile weapons.

It was allready stated that they get a 5+ invun.
Maybe they get something similiar like the Rubic Marines as well to buff them against low AP weapons.
On the other hand they allready got 2 wounds now and we also need to wait how much points they will be.

Power level wise the Primaris only cost 1 more point then a regular squad of Tactical Marines which kinda is a joke If you would play them naked. But since all upgrades come for free and the Primaris dont seem to have any it can be kinda balanced again. Obviously Power Points are not there to perfectly balance anything anyway.

There was also mentioned that Tactical Marines can still take Lascannons for example so I hope this holds true and we dont get units which only get the equipment they come with in the box.

We know the twin linked rules for combi-bolter for chaos terminators means they will have RapidFire 2 weapon. So, 4 shots at 12" and 2 shots at 24" at -1 to hit.

I would guess that stormbolters are going to actually be Assault 2d3 hits for 1 damage each. Though, they could make them Assault 2 for 2 damage each and effectively shred through units entirely.

I am hoping for the second one because I field Grey Knights.

Youn wrote:
We know the twin linked rules for combi-bolter for chaos terminators means they will have RapidFire 2 weapon. So, 4 shots at 12" and 2 shots at 24" at -1 to hit.

I would guess that stormbolters are going to actually be Assault 2d3 hits for 1 damage each. Though, they could make them Assault 2 for 2 damage each and effectively shred through units entirely.

I am hoping for the second one because I field Grey Knights.

Combi-bolters have never been the same as other combi-weapons so I don't see why they'd have -1 to hit. They're just a TL bolter, so 24" Str 4 AP0 Dmg 1 Rapid Fire 2

It depends a lot on what goodies terminators get, and how their weapons are changed. Weapons are fairly big change because, as it stands, storm bolters carry no benefit over twin linked bolters besides being assault (which may or may not matter on a terminator). So it's entirely possible storm bolters might become assault 3 or the same as twin linked bolters. Both would mean they offer a great deal more shooting power than the primaris, either at close/mid range depending. Powerfists also haven't been shown yet (as far as I know at least), with going first based purely on the charge, powerfists might be significantly more powerful. It's possible they could negate the charge advantage... but how would PF seargents work then? Could be a global terminator rule instead though.

Invulnerable saves or the ability to ignore rend would also be a big deal, though a terminator who totally ignores rend would truly cost a mountain of points. If I had to guess, it'd likely be ignore rend on single damage weapons or something similar (so you need AT to deal with terminators, which is kinda fluffy and cool imo), if it isn't just a plain invulnerable save.

Not to mention terminators still get heavy/special weapons. Think about the middle launcher now with split fire being a thing for all infantry, gets a lot more usage imo.

It's been estimated based on Power that the Nurines are probably going to cost only slightly less than a Terminator.

So, it's not really invalidating. Just further down the tank spec.

I am actually excited that Terminators got 2 wounds each. In several of the Proposed rules thread about terminators, adding another wound was often my main "fix" for them.
It's even better now that Instant Death is no longer a thing. Sure a Lascannon will probably still vaporize them, but there is a 1/6 chance they'll only do 1 wound. D3 damage weapons have a 1/3 chance to only do 1 wounds.

Also remember that D6 damage weapons will likely want to target models with 3 or more wounds to maximize their potential, so shooting at Terminators is a bit of a waste.

Overall, I think 8E is looking good for Terminators, but points cost will tell for sure. I'd say no more than 30ppm is about right given that Tactical marines are 13ppm

-

I have previously felt a good option for beefing up Terminators was stacked saves (so you get to roll a 2+ THEN roll a 5+ invulnerable or some such).

Maybe they'll do something like that? Though I'm not counting on it.

Just going to put it out there again - the ONLY thing a 5++ does for a 2+ model is make them twice as durable against ap-4 weapons if they are not in cover. That is not a big deal, that is the most minor of minor advantages to their durability. It won't even help against mortal wounds. If powerfists/MCs/poweraxes etc keep the ap2 = ap-3 trend - an invuln save of 5++ will not even make a difference against those.
If invuln saves are not layered, a 5++ on a terminator is almost pointless. They should pay very very little for that 5++ since it will very very rarely be used. If layered saves are not used, I would rather the termis be cheaper and not get the almost useless 5++.

Edit: going to put this into even starker perspective. If a terminator is caught in the open by an ap-4 weapon, a 5++ will make a difference only 16.7% of the time. That's it. At no other time will that 5++ be used.

I felt that way at first then looked more at how the current primarus have no weapon options, kind of feel like they maybe step on the termies a bit less than the centurions did at first. Honestly I'm more concerned the heavy bolter seemed to get its moment to shine before the bolt rifle showed up as a potential rival depending on cost.

As for termies vs primes I'm wondering how the transport rules will go. Will there still be bulky? Will they both be bulky or just the terminators? We still need more information to get a clearer picture, but at the moment I'd say they fit nicely in between.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Just going to put it out there again - the ONLY thing a 5++ does for a 2+ model is make them twice as durable against ap-4 weapons if they are not in cover. That is not a big deal, that is the most minor of minor advantages to their durability. It won't even help against mortal wounds. If powerfists/MCs/poweraxes etc keep the ap2 = ap-3 trend - an invuln save of 5++ will not even make a difference against those.
If invuln saves are not layered, a 5++ on a terminator is almost pointless. They should pay very very little for that 5++ since it will very very rarely be used. If layered saves are not used, I would rather the termis be cheaper and not get the almost useless 5++.

Edit: going to put this into even starker perspective. If a terminator is caught in the open by an ap-4 weapon, a 5++ will make a difference only 16.7% of the time. That's it. At no other time will that 5++ be used.

Unless like I said they decide to make saves stack

I'm definately not a troll. I always use this name, I love fudge and i love dumpers, so the name is thusly not derived from any fudge being dumped out of an orifice.

I'm genuinely concerned, because termies have sucked behind for so long. And remember, they said there will be lots more of primaris types, so I doubt they won't have any weapons options.

tneva82 wrote:


He claimed they might have 3+ on 2d6.

You are correct. It was the OP that has a stick up his ass.

I apologize for my mistake.

And since I apologized for a mistake in an online forum, I'm automatically good guy Greg!