40k Vehicles Update

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**Breng77**

Video FAQ confirms multiple units can ride in one transport as long as there is space.

**ERJAK**

MagicJuggler wrote:
ross-128 wrote:
As someone who has played quite a few FPS games with vehicles in them, I can confirm that running over people who are both aware of your presence and trying to avoid you is harder than it looks. 6+ to hit is a little extreme, but it is hard enough to justify a roll to hit in general.

Which is why roadkills happen to friendlies more often than enemies... an enemy will pay immediate attention to your vehicle and actively avoid it. An ally will assume your vehicle is completely harmless, and run across the road right in front of you. Always evade a moving vehicle as if it was an enemy, people. Just because I don't want to hit you doesn't mean I can see you or stop in time to avoid it.

Anyway, I think it's interesting. I'm going to miss tank shock's ability to just run things clean off the board, but I also look forward to being able to do what is basically still a tank shock with any vehicle. I do hope that tanks apply some kind of penalty to enemy battleshock when they assault though, just to keep that "tanks be scary" vibe.

Another interesting factor is since vehicles now use the same assault rules as everything else, a unit assaulted by a tank is "stuck in" and would have to declare a fall-back move to get out of it. Combined with the removal of rear armor and that means you can tarpit (to such an extent as tarpit still exists) with a vehicle. For example, roll up on an enemy with a Chimera and a squad inside. Drop the squad off about 6" away, shoot with the squad, then assault with the Chimera. Now the enemy unit can't shoot back on their next turn, either they have to stay stuck-in with the Chimera, or they have to fall back, sacrifice their shooting, and still be in rapid-fire range!

Gaunts or Boyz bearing down on you? Shoot 'em with your infantry, then charge the Chimeras in to tarpit them. Disengaging from the Chimeras would force them to move *away* from your infantry (and get shot more), but staying stuck-in would leave them tied up and your infantry free to shoot other things, like maybe the anti-tank units they're going to try to use to break said tarpit.

I wonder if dozer blades will count as a close combat weapon, and I wonder if vehicle close combat weapons will improve that abysmal 6+ to hit. Though I expect vehicles *meant* for CC will probably actually have a decent WS like 4+ or so.

The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.

The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.

Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.

Oh no, that mechanic that 3 people used across all of 6th and 7th is gone. What a nightmare.

**MagicJuggler**

ERJAK wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
ross-128 wrote:
As someone who has played quite a few FPS games with vehicles in them, I can confirm that running over people who are both aware of your presence and trying to avoid you is harder than it looks. 6+ to hit is a little extreme, but it is hard enough to justify a roll to hit in general.

Which is why roadkills happen to friendlies more often than enemies... an enemy will pay immediate attention to your vehicle and actively avoid it. An ally will assume your vehicle is completely harmless, and run across the road right in front of you. Always evade a moving vehicle as if it was an enemy, people. Just because I don't want to hit you doesn't mean I can see you or stop in time to avoid it.

Anyway, I think it's interesting. I'm going to miss tank shock's ability to just run things clean off the board, but I also look forward to being able to do what is basically still a tank shock with any vehicle. I do hope that tanks apply some kind of penalty to enemy battleshock when they assault though, just to keep that "tanks be scary" vibe.

Another interesting factor is since vehicles now use the same assault rules as everything else, a unit assaulted by a tank is "stuck in" and would have to declare a fall-back move to get out of it. Combined with the removal of rear armor and that means you can tarpit (to such an extent as tarpit still exists) with a vehicle. For example, roll up on an enemy with a Chimera and a squad inside. Drop the squad off about 6" away, shoot with the squad, then assault with the Chimera. Now the enemy unit can't shoot back on their next turn, either they have to stay stuck-in with the Chimera, or they have to fall back, sacrifice their shooting, and still be in rapid-fire range!

Gaunts or Boyz bearing down on you? Shoot 'em with your infantry, then charge the Chimeras in to tarpit them. Disengaging from the Chimeras would force them to move *away* from your infantry (and get shot more), but staying stuck-in would leave them tied up and your infantry free to shoot other things, like maybe the anti-tank units they're going to try to use to break said tarpit.

I wonder if dozer blades will count as a close combat weapon, and I wonder if vehicle close combat weapons will improve that abysmal 6+ to hit. Though I expect vehicles *meant* for CC will probably actually have a decent WS like 4+ or so.

The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.

The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.

Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.

Oh no, that mechanic that 3 people used across all of 6th and 7th is gone. What a nightmare.

I used it. Andrew Sutton used it. Justin Hildebrandt used it (as did pretty much any Ork player). Jon Camacho used it.

Troll harder.

**Traditio**

Hey guys:

For all of you who have been screaming "SPAM DROP PODS" at me this edition.

How good do you think drop pods are going to be in close combat?

**Cmdr_Sune**

Traditio wrote:
Hey guys:

For all of you who have been screaming "SPAM DROP PODS" at me this edition.

How good do you think drop pods are going to be in close combat?

Perhaps you will be able to drop pod on enemy units (like in Helldivers with supply drops, but you usually ended upp hitting yourself and/or your friends). I would guess that would be WS 6+ with 2 attacks (in Helldivers it would have been WS 1+, 4 attacks with strength D).

Helldivers would also give a Thunderhawk close combat attacks.

Edited: Changed a sentence.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Annihilation Barge confirms that Necrons will still be Ld10.

**Charistoph**

Cmdr_Sune wrote:
The Annihilation Barge confirms that Necrons will still be Ld10.

Not necessarily. Vehicles have long had the standard of having Ld 10 where needed.

Though, Necrons have had Ld 10 for pretty much their entire existence, so it would be a surprise for any of them to be lower than 10.

**Mr Morden**

Charistoph wrote:
Cmdr_Sune wrote:
The Annihilation Barge confirms that Necrons will still be Ld10.

Not necessarily. Vehicles have long had the standard of having Ld 10 where needed.

Though, Necrons have had Ld 10 for pretty much their entire existence, so it would be a surprise for any of them to be lower than 10.

Marines used to be LD8 - they ain't now

**Azreal13**

Traditio wrote:
Hey guys:

For all of you who have been screaming "SPAM DROP PODS" at me this edition.

How good do you think drop pods are going to be in close combat?

Right, so people have been giving you solid advice you've resolutely ignored (and lost god knows how many games and created fething hundreds of threads as a result) and all of a sudden the entire game has been upended and that advice might no longer apply in precisely the same way, and you think that excuses some sort of crowing about it?

**Traditio**

Azreal13 wrote:Right, so people have been giving you solid advice you've resolutely ignored (and lost god knows how many games and created fething hundreds of threads as a result) and all of a sudden the entire game has been upended and that advice might no longer apply in precisely the same way, and you think that excuses some sort of crowing about it?

I'm sorry, my intent/message seems not to have been clear. Let me rephrase:

your drop pods.

I am happy to see them neutered.

Meanwhile, my rhinos are looking amazing.

**docdoom77**

Traditio wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:Right, so people have been giving you solid advice you've resolutely ignored (and lost god knows how many games and created fething hundreds of threads as a result) and all of a sudden the entire game has been upended and that advice might no longer apply in precisely the same way, and you think that excuses some sort of crowing about it?

I'm sorry, my intent/message seems not to have been clear. Let me rephrase:

your drop pods.

I am happy to see them neutered.

Meanwhile, my rhinos are looking amazing.

My Rogue Trader Era Crimsion Fists approve of this message. Tiny Rhinos for the win!

**Nightlord1987**

Cramming more than 1 unit inside a rhino or landraider gives my CSM a poor man's version of combat squad! I love it!

**Azreal13**

Traditio wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:Right, so people have been giving you solid advice you've resolutely ignored (and lost god knows how many games and created fething hundreds of threads as a result) and all of a sudden the entire game has been upended and that advice might no longer apply in precisely the same way, and you think that excuses some sort of crowing about it?

I'm sorry, my intent/message seems not to have been clear. Let me rephrase:

your drop pods.

I am happy to see them neutered.

Meanwhile, my rhinos are looking amazing.

Ah right, just more junk for the "Traditio doesn't care about balance as long as what he likes is at the top" pile.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

I wouldn't be surprised if vehicles ended up with some bonus to hit for ramming other vehicles.

I ordered two Deff Rolla upgrade kits a while back. Now I need to work on scratchbuilding a homicidal snow plow, complete with gore shoot.

**Mr Morden**

We are just returning to somethin like the original Rogue Trader vehicle stats

So then a Land Raider was

Move 20", Transport: 10, Toughness 8, Damage 30, Armour 5+, 2 Lascannons and 1 Bolter

Autodrive and Targeters

**docdoom77**

Mr Morden wrote:
We are just returning to somethin like the original Rogue Trader vehicle stats

So then a Land Raider was

Move 20", Transport: 10, Toughness 8, Damage 30, Armour 5+, 2 Lascannons and 1 Bolter

Autodrive and Targeters

You left out acc/dec and turn radius! What was the acc/dec? 7 inches?

**Traditio**

Azreal13 wrote:Ah right, just more junk for the "Traditio doesn't care about balance as long as what he likes is at the top" pile.

It's less "Traditio just wants to win" and more "Traditio desires to dance to the songs of lamentation and bathe in the tears of the power gamers who realize that their armies are now useless."

Spoken differently:

That's what you GET!

**Mr Morden**

docdoom77 wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
We are just returning to somethin like the original Rogue Trader vehicle stats

So then a Land Raider was

Move 20", Transport: 10, Toughness 8, Damage 30, Armour 5+, 2 Lascannons and 1 Bolter

Autodrive and Targeters

You left out acc/dec and turn radius! What was the acc/dec? 7 inches?

yeah I was being lazy - ACC/Dec was indeed 7 and Turn Radius (TRR) was 1

**docdoom77**

Mr Morden wrote:
docdoom77 wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
We are just returning to somethin like the original Rogue Trader vehicle stats

So then a Land Raider was

Move 20", Transport: 10, Toughness 8, Damage 30, Armour 5+, 2 Lascannons and 1 Bolter

Autodrive and Targeters

You left out acc/dec and turn radius! What was the acc/dec? 7 inches?

yeah I was being lazy - ACC/Dec was indeed 7 and Turn Radius (TRR) was 1

It's not that I have a great memory. I was just reading through one of my copies of RT a few days ago.

**Mr Morden**

docdoom77 wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
docdoom77 wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
We are just returning to somethin like the original Rogue Trader vehicle stats

So then a Land Raider was

Move 20", Transport: 10, Toughness 8, Damage 30, Armour 5+, 2 Lascannons and 1 Bolter

Autodrive and Targeters

You left out acc/dec and turn radius! What was the acc/dec? 7 inches?

yeah I was being lazy - ACC/Dec was indeed 7 and Turn Radius (TRR) was 1

It's not that I have a great memory. I was just reading through one of my copies of RT a few days ago.

I have my good copy in front of me- not the other one that is falling apart

**Azreal13**

Traditio wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:Ah right, just more junk for the "Traditio doesn't care about balance as long as what he likes is at the top" pile.

It's less "Traditio just wants to win" and more "Traditio desires to dance to the songs of lamentation and bathe in the tears of the power gamers who realize that their armies are now useless."

Spoken differently:

That's what you GET!

Paint it any way you like, it still doesn't reflect well on you.

**ERJAK**

MagicJuggler wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
ross-128 wrote:
As someone who has played quite a few FPS games with vehicles in them, I can confirm that running over people who are both aware of your presence and trying to avoid you is harder than it looks. 6+ to hit is a little extreme, but it is hard enough to justify a roll to hit in general.

Which is why roadkills happen to friendlies more often than enemies... an enemy will pay immediate attention to your vehicle and actively avoid it. An ally will assume your vehicle is completely harmless, and run across the road right in front of you. Always evade a moving vehicle as if it was an enemy, people. Just because I don't want to hit you doesn't mean I can see you or stop in time to avoid it.

Anyway, I think it's interesting. I'm going to miss tank shock's ability to just run things clean off the board, but I also look forward to being able to do what is basically still a tank shock with any vehicle. I do hope that tanks apply some kind of penalty to enemy battleshock when they assault though, just to keep that "tanks be scary" vibe.

Another interesting factor is since vehicles now use the same assault rules as everything else, a unit assaulted by a tank is "stuck in" and would have to declare a fall-back move to get out of it. Combined with the removal of rear armor and that means you can tarpit (to such an extent as tarpit still exists) with a vehicle. For example, roll up on an enemy with a Chimera and a squad inside. Drop the squad off about 6" away, shoot with the squad, then assault with the Chimera. Now the enemy unit can't shoot back on their next turn, either they have to stay stuck-in with the Chimera, or they have to fall back, sacrifice their shooting, and still be in rapid-fire range!

Gaunts or Boyz bearing down on you? Shoot 'em with your infantry, then charge the Chimeras in to tarpit them. Disengaging from the Chimeras would force them to move *away* from your infantry (and get shot more), but staying stuck-in would leave them tied up and your infantry free to shoot other things, like maybe the anti-tank units they're going to try to use to break said tarpit.

I wonder if dozer blades will count as a close combat weapon, and I wonder if vehicle close combat weapons will improve that abysmal 6+ to hit. Though I expect vehicles *meant* for CC will probably actually have a decent WS like 4+ or so.

The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.

The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.

Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.

Oh no, that mechanic that 3 people used across all of 6th and 7th is gone. What a nightmare.

I used it. Andrew Sutton used it. Justin Hildebrandt used it (as did pretty much any Ork player). Jon Camacho used it.

Troll harder.

Sure, pics or it didn't happen.

Tank shock was a rule that never had any meaningful use in games with even moderately efficient list. Mostly because those didn't use vehicles. The rule was pointless in practical 40k because the vehicles that did get used either A)never survived long enough to get close to anything B) Didn't move at all the entire game or C) Didn't really care that crap was in front of them.

It was a stupid niche rule that was entirely there for one or two cinematic moments across hundreds of games and so that it would be funny to think about Stormsurges blowing up to it. It was never practical, it was never tactical, it was barely ever useful and it doesn't matter AT ALL that it's gone.

Cling to clunky garbage rules as much as you want, doesn't make them good.

**Verviedi**

Tank Shock will always be remembered as the thing that once ate my Y'vahra, instakilling it. There are no other incidents of note.

**steerpike92**

My concern is how transports will be able to drop off their troops, charge in, and tarpit a whole different unit.

What could make up for this is if you were still allowed to shoot at the vehicle while in close combat with it (so long as there aren't any enemy troops also in the CC). It would make sense logically as armor without infantry support is usually terrible in real life. A vehicle sitting in front of you can't compel you to punch it. And it's a massive target compared to infantry.

**ProwlerPC**

Depends. Giving a cheap obsec trukk a ram to tank shock an objective and becoming cover after has its odd moment. Emphasis on cheap though.

**Poly Ranger**

steerpike92 wrote:
My concern is how transports will be able to drop off their troops, charge in, and tarpit a whole different unit.

What could make up for this is if you were still allowed to shoot at the vehicle while in close combat with it (so long as there aren't any enemy troops also in the CC). It would make sense logically as armor without infantry support is usually terrible in real life. A vehicle sitting in front of you can't compel you to punch it. And it's a massive target compared to infantry.

Yeh this is a big worry if they don't address it in the core rules.

10 Warp Talons are bursting down the flank in a maneuver that has wrong footed their Ultamarine opponent with nothing in their way. But wait! That's not totally true - there is a rhino! The Rhino charges the Warp Talons, making them have to fall back in their next turn, so the rhino charges the Warp Talons, making them have to fall back in their next turn, so the rhino charges the Warp Talons, making them have to fall back in their next turn.

30 space marines are hunting down what's left of a minimum sized Guard platoon consisting of 25 guardsmen in 3 Chimeras. The Guard are toast. But no wait! They've headed straight towards the marine force and jumped out their vehicles! Now they are shooting at them and the Chimeras are charging a marine unit each - oh the bravery! Now the Marines have to fall back and can't do anything, so the guard repeat again and again. This takes place as a running battle over miles of ground due to the weakness of the guards lasguns, but this does not deter the guard! Eventually, after whittling down the marine numbers for hours, they finally kill the last one. Poor marines - they never stood a chance... Cadia lives!

Yeh... they best do something about that. If not, it's quite literally game breaking.

**digital-animal**

I thought that you could choose to stay in combat if you wanted?

**MagicJuggler**

ERJAK wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
ross-128 wrote:
As someone who has played quite a few FPS games with vehicles in them, I can confirm that running over people who are both aware of your presence and trying to avoid you is harder than it looks. 6+ to hit is a little extreme, but it is hard enough to justify a roll to hit in general.

Which is why roadkills happen to friendlies more often than enemies... an enemy will pay immediate attention to your vehicle and actively avoid it. An ally will assume your vehicle is completely harmless, and run across the road right in front of you. Always evade a moving vehicle as if it was an enemy, people. Just because I don't want to hit you doesn't mean I can see you or stop in time to avoid it.

Anyway, I think it's interesting. I'm going to miss tank shock's ability to just run things clean off the board, but I also look forward to being able to do what is basically still a tank shock with any vehicle. I do hope that tanks apply some kind of penalty to enemy battleshock when they assault though, just to keep that "tanks be scary" vibe.

Another interesting factor is since vehicles now use the same assault rules as everything else, a unit assaulted by a tank is "stuck in" and would have to declare a fall-back move to get out of it. Combined with the removal of rear armor and that means you can tarpit (to such an extent as tarpit still exists) with a vehicle. For example, roll up on an enemy with a Chimera and a squad inside. Drop the squad off about 6" away, shoot with the squad, then assault with the Chimera. Now the enemy unit can't shoot back on their next turn, either they have to stay stuck-in with the Chimera, or they have to fall back, sacrifice their shooting, and still be in rapid-fire range!

Gaunts or Boyz bearing down on you? Shoot 'em with your infantry, then charge the Chimeras in to tarpit them. Disengaging from the Chimeras would force them to move *away* from your infantry (and get shot more), but staying stuck-in would leave them tied up and your infantry free to shoot other things, like maybe the anti-tank units they're going to try to use to break said tarpit.

I wonder if dozer blades will count as a close combat weapon, and I wonder if vehicle close combat weapons will improve that abysmal 6+ to hit. Though I expect vehicles *meant* for CC will probably actually have a decent WS like 4+ or so.

The issue this is that in an FPS game, the infantryman you're trying to run over is moving out of the way. Which is what Tank Shock did: it forced models to displace for positional gain.

The problem with this mechanic is that you now have physics akin to Street Cleaning Simulator where a tank rolls up, rolls to hit with itself, but comes just comically short of actually hitting anyone.

Not to mention that by replacing weapon skill with fixed "to-hit" rolls, that tank has the same chance of hitting a Grot, an immobilized Gorkanaut, another Land Raider, and will always grind to a halt no matter what simply because tank shock is gone and there is no model-displacement mechanic.

Oh no, that mechanic that 3 people used across all of 6th and 7th is gone. What a nightmare.

I used it. Andrew Sutton used it. Justin Hildebrandt used it (as did pretty much any Ork player). Jon Camacho used it.

Troll harder.

Sure, pics or it didn't happen.

Tank shock was a rule that never had any meaningful use in games with even moderately efficient list. Mostly because those didn't use vehicles. The rule was pointless in practical 40k because the vehicles that did get used either A)never survived long enough to get close to anything B) Didn't move at all the entire game or C) Didn't really care that crap was in front of them.

It was a stupid niche rule that was entirely there for one or two cinematic moments across hundreds of games and so that it would be funny to think about Stormsurges blowing up to it. It was never practical, it was never tactical, it was barely ever useful and it doesn't matter AT ALL that it's gone.

Cling to clunky garbage rules as much as you want, doesn't make them good.

I missed the "6th or 7th" bit, oops. I'm sure I can run into other folks that use it though, especially since Genestealer Cults are a thing. Camacho's army was 7th ed and used an Obelisk for Thunderblitzing.

My main experience with Tank Shock/Ramming has been for moving units out of cover, since as a Chaos player, Ignore Cover shooting isn't exactly something I have the consistent luxury of (sure, I can Psychic Shriek and all, but still...). Usually, I find the Rhinos tend to live longer enough to actually set up zones of control near multiple objectives ("you move here, I push you off"), simply because there are enough small units of MSU Spawn, Bikers, Flesh Hounds, Termicide, etc. that are more immediate threats.

Perhaps I'll get some photos up if I get a game in this weekend. Still settling into New York.

**Poly Ranger**

digital-animal wrote:
I thought that you could choose to stay in combat if you wanted?

Yes you can. So the 10 Warp Talons get stuck in combat with a Rhino all game rather than fall back... Great!

I'm not saying that GW haven't addressed this. I'm saying IF they haven't - this literally will break the game. More than invisibility, more than Scat bikes, more than a never-ending glut of formations. Anyone with cheap transports will auto-win against those without. Just lock them in combat or keep shooting them when they fall back and charge with the transport again.

**rollawaythestone**

I am so excited for the Harlequin Starweaver to be awesome in close combat.

**CrownAxe**

Traditio wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:Ah right, just more junk for the "Traditio doesn't care about balance as long as what he likes is at the top" pile.

It's less "Traditio just wants to win" and more "Traditio desires to dance to the songs of lamentation and bathe in the tears of the power gamers who realize that their armies are now useless."

Spoken differently:

That's what you GET!

Why would Power Gamers care? They'll just buy w/e ever the new power army is and continue winning all their games. Its called WAAC for a reason

Not everyone plays 40k by building a single army list and expecting it to be valid for the rest of all time like you see to do.