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 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

So it should be celebrated big time.

I disagree. That army doesn't feature any Crisis teams, Stealth teams or Broadsides. It has no Hammerheads or Devilfish. No Kroot.

All it does is highlight how in order to be competitive, Tau players need to leave all of the iconic Tau units at home, except for Fire Warriors (of which it has a whopping 5) and Pathfinders (10) and they're only in there because they are cheap for what they need to do.

What you just said is that it hi-lites him being wise in his choices. Aesthetically its just an ugly mugger of a list. It's also the winner. Competitions are thing you go to in order to win. The rules and models are there. Everyone followed the rules.

Winningis a personality. Best list there probably didn't win.

 Jancoran wrote:
It is literally the silliest thing in the universe to undersell this.

It won. The rules are the same for everyone and it won. That's huge.

It's ALREADY enormously difficult to win at a tournament. SO MUCH has to go as planned. You have to capitalize on enemy mistakes. You have to have answers to a multiplicity of threats.

Winning any event is tough but for it to be this event makes it twice as tough or even three times as tough.

So it should be celebrated big time. T'au Empire haven't been weak since the 6th Edition codex. They also haven't been at the tip top of the heap really ever. No one can remember a time when Tau engendered the same fear as Wave spam or Scatter spam or Ynnari BS before the debuff, or the Castellan + IG combination. TauDar was the closest T'au ever came, and that was only after a Formation came out, but even then, it was the combination, and not really the T'au as a codex.

So to be number one in that arena seems really darn notable.

I don't wanne take anything away from him, its a great win over a massive field. I watched the finals, his drone movement to zone out the GSC was superb. He is clearly a great player.

But you can't look at a tournament result/list without acknowledging the environment around it.
No kill more is a big bonus for all the small drone units.
No progressive scoring letting you castle for 4-5 turns without issue is HUGE for an army like Tau that works best in a clump.

 Ordana wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
It is literally the silliest thing in the universe to undersell this.

It won. The rules are the same for everyone and it won. That's huge.

It's ALREADY enormously difficult to win at a tournament. SO MUCH has to go as planned. You have to capitalize on enemy mistakes. You have to have answers to a multiplicity of threats.

Winning any event is tough but for it to be this event makes it twice as tough or even three times as tough.

So it should be celebrated big time. T'au Empire haven't been weak since the 6th Edition codex. They also haven't been at the tip top of the heap really ever. No one can remember a time when Tau engendered the same fear as Wave spam or Scatter spam or Ynnari BS before the debuff, or the Castellan + IG combination. TauDar was the closest T'au ever came, and that was only after a Formation came out, but even then, it was the combination, and not really the T'au as a codex.

So to be number one in that arena seems really darn notable.

I don't wanne take anything away from him, its a great win over a massive field. I watched the finals, his drone movement to zone out the GSC was superb. He is clearly a great player.

But you can't look at a tournament result/list without acknowledging the environment around it.
No kill more is a big bonus for all the small drone units.
No progressive scoring letting you castle for 4-5 turns without issue is HUGE for an army like Tau that works best in a clump.

That's very true you have to know the environment of the tournament. I was at the Throne of Skulls double tournament last week and while it was a lot of fun the scoring system for that is horrible to the point where playing the best with the best list with the most wins and most objectives will not make you win tournament.

 Blndmage wrote:
I haven't played my Kroot (might as well be 100% up front, totally fluff and PL based list) since the old Kroot Mercenaries in 4th.

My goal is to use just Kroot, or appropriate Counts As where absolutely necessary. Heavily modified and kitbashed, lots of custom models.

Here's what I've got:

1 Master Shaper (Counts As Etherial)
1 Crisis Suit Commander with dual Flamers
20x Kroot Carnivores
12x Kroot Carnivores
6x Krootox Riders / Knarloc Riders (custom models)
2x Shapers with Kroot Gun
1x Shaper with Pulse Carbine
3x Great Knarloc
2x Great Knarloc with Bolt Throwers
4x Great Knarloc with Baggage Harnesses
2x Remote Sensor Tower

I don't have much money to get more models right now, but I'm heavily considering getting a box of Skinks to use as Hounds, as the entire Kindred is reptile/dinosaur themed. That would give me 24 Hounds. Ideally I'd take even more.

Is this viable in a super casual scene?

First up can I just check that you are not me posting in my sleep?

I ran a kroot themed army all through 6th and 7th and still run it now for casual games. Lots of conversions, all my battlesuits have kroot pilots and other conversion work to kroot them up a bit.

The answer is that in a sufficiently casual setting a very heavy kroot themed army can be OK. You do need to look hard at what roles you cannot fill with kroot and consider some conversion work to fill those roles - this is why I have slowly built up so many converted battlesuits over the years. The nearest thing kroot get to a heavy hitter is the krootox which suffers from being very fragile for its points; anyone wanting to remove your anti-tank can do so pretty easily. Also kroot have almost no worthwhile stratagems, so if you are playing narrative mission which tend to hand out additional stratagems they are fun and interesting to play but in matched play missions they can feel rather dull (especially by comparison with the fun tricks they had in 6th/7th). Outside of narrative missions a kroot list will tend to have loads of CP and nothing to use them on.

The one synergy kroot do get is markerlights so try to add some to your list. Even if its just kroot models kitbashed to be using borrowed/stolen pathfinder weapons.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

So it should be celebrated big time.

I disagree. That army doesn't feature any Crisis teams, Stealth teams or Broadsides. It has no Hammerheads or Devilfish. No Kroot.

All it does is highlight how in order to be competitive, Tau players need to leave all of the iconic Tau units at home, except for Fire Warriors (of which it has a whopping 5) and Pathfinders (10) and they're only in there because they are cheap for what they need to do.

The other Tau list in the top bracket was loaded up with hammerheads and devilfish - along with a skyray and sunshark bombers and not a single riptide or shield drone. I do not think there is only one competitive Tau list, there is however a need to have a clear strategy and build your list to that plan if you want to do well over a 9 game tournament. Just mixing in lots of iconic units will not work if you are doing it for the sake of the aesthetic look of the list, you need to have a gameplan and put in units which support that gameplan.

If you want there is a podcast on YouTube called art of war and Richard talks about the list and his goals with it. It's a really interesting listen.

Also Iconic is usually a way of saying original in 40k. The hammerhead is good but how many lists do you see with a bunch of Dedicated transports. I don't. It is a fluffy and visually attractive gameplay style but it's is not optimal too these rules.

Speaking of Suboptimal ...... Anyone got opinions on the Ghostkeel and loadouts for it cause I love the model.

 captain collius wrote:
If you want there is a podcast on YouTube called art of war and Richard talks about the list and his goals with it. It's a really interesting listen.

Also Iconic is usually a way of saying original in 40k. The hammerhead is good but how many lists do you see with a bunch of Dedicated transports. I don't. It is a fluffy and visually attractive gameplay style but it's is not optimal too these rules.

Speaking of Suboptimal ...... Anyone got opinions on the Ghostkeel and loadouts for it cause I love the model.

Agreed it is a great model.

Ghostkeel wants to be run in multiples so that taking out 2 drones does not leave it vulnerable. When you have 3 ghostkeels your opponent needs to burn a surprising amount of firepower on removing 3 units of 2 drones before they even want to shoot at the 'keel itself. With it already coming with some drones it needs slightly fewer support drones than a Riptide would and the penalties to hit help reduce drone losses too. The firepower is actually comparable point for point with that of a Riptide but there is no getting away from a couple of limitations on that
1. Shorter range hurts, the CIR has limited range and everything else it can take is only 18" range which is just painfully close
2. No access to LOS ignoring weapons, in ITC missions you need SMS and this is the one "big" suit that can't take one
3. While the base platform is well costed most of the support systems are costed as if this were a Riptide but it really is not - so loading it up makes it less points efficient.

It is still very mobile so do not go overboard with deploying it far forwards, from your deployment zone it will have a threat range of 30" on all its weapons anyway and like any big suit it wants drones around to keep it alive.

Personally I run mine with CIR/BC with Shield generator and then I flip-flop around for the second support system because its a tough call. I treat them like baby riptides, durable platforms that just keep pumping out shots all game and which can troll opponents with charges to tag shooting units in combat.

They are good if you want to play a late-game list that is just hard to kill and wears your opponent down over time. Not so much if you want to alpha-strike your opponent off the table.

 captain collius wrote:
If you want there is a podcast on YouTube called art of war and Richard talks about the list and his goals with it. It's a really interesting listen.

Also Iconic is usually a way of saying original in 40k. The hammerhead is good but how many lists do you see with a bunch of Dedicated transports. I don't. It is a fluffy and visually attractive gameplay style but it's is not optimal too these rules.

Speaking of Suboptimal ...... Anyone got opinions on the Ghostkeel and loadouts for it cause I love the model.

Link?

happy_inquisitor wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
I haven't played my Kroot (might as well be 100% up front, totally fluff and PL based list) since the old Kroot Mercenaries in 4th.

My goal is to use just Kroot, or appropriate Counts As where absolutely necessary. Heavily modified and kitbashed, lots of custom models.

Here's what I've got:

1 Master Shaper (Counts As Etherial)
1 Crisis Suit Commander with dual Flamers
20x Kroot Carnivores
12x Kroot Carnivores
6x Krootox Riders / Knarloc Riders (custom models)
2x Shapers with Kroot Gun
1x Shaper with Pulse Carbine
3x Great Knarloc
2x Great Knarloc with Bolt Throwers
4x Great Knarloc with Baggage Harnesses
2x Remote Sensor Tower

I don't have much money to get more models right now, but I'm heavily considering getting a box of Skinks to use as Hounds, as the entire Kindred is reptile/dinosaur themed. That would give me 24 Hounds. Ideally I'd take even more.

Is this viable in a super casual scene?

First up can I just check that you are not me posting in my sleep?

I ran a kroot themed army all through 6th and 7th and still run it now for casual games. Lots of conversions, all my battlesuits have kroot pilots and other conversion work to kroot them up a bit.

The answer is that in a sufficiently casual setting a very heavy kroot themed army can be OK. You do need to look hard at what roles you cannot fill with kroot and consider some conversion work to fill those roles - this is why I have slowly built up so many converted battlesuits over the years. The nearest thing kroot get to a heavy hitter is the krootox which suffers from being very fragile for its points; anyone wanting to remove your anti-tank can do so pretty easily. Also kroot have almost no worthwhile stratagems, so if you are playing narrative mission which tend to hand out additional stratagems they are fun and interesting to play but in matched play missions they can feel rather dull (especially by comparison with the fun tricks they had in 6th/7th). Outside of narrative missions a kroot list will tend to have loads of CP and nothing to use them on.

The one synergy kroot do get is markerlights so try to add some to your list. Even if its just kroot models kitbashed to be using borrowed/stolen pathfinder weapons.

I've kitbashed three Remotes Sensor Towers, since the FW ones no longer exist, for ML support, they seem to do well.
I run the sept that gives Kroot FTGG, it's obviously not competitive, especially since it's a PL only list due to FW stating they'll never give points for the Great Knarloc, or Riders, but it's a fun list to run!
Running as Narritive means I can ignore the Ro2/3/4, and run all 9 Great Knarlocs!

 Jancoran wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
If you want there is a podcast on YouTube called art of war and Richard talks about the list and his goals with it. It's a really interesting listen.

Also Iconic is usually a way of saying original in 40k. The hammerhead is good but how many lists do you see with a bunch of Dedicated transports. I don't. It is a fluffy and visually attractive gameplay style but it's is not optimal too these rules.

Speaking of Suboptimal ...... Anyone got opinions on the Ghostkeel and loadouts for it cause I love the model.

Link?

https://youtu.be/nJx6bpHyGSo
There you go.

I'm just coming back to 40K after a few years away. How are sniper drones these days? Are the just too fragile to be worth it?

Aliandro wrote:
I'm just coming back to 40K after a few years away. How are sniper drones these days? Are the just too fragile to be worth it?

They are one of our top units and normally survive decently. Often with a Riptide or Ghostkeel half way up the board the snipers will be ignored allowing them to take out key targets.

EDIT: Although personally I would take lots or none. 3 or 5 isn't going be that effective. I aim for 9+ to take out a key squad or character in the first turn.

Snipers IN GENERAL are quite good in 40K

From the Siegler podcast.

He bullied with riptides backed up by a ton of drones, took ground mid field, and played fast aiming for 6 turns every game. He used the small drone squads to block out GSC and other deep strikers. He used the grave drones hidden in building corners for the same. He kept his riptides alive all 6 turns, wearing down enemies over long periods of time. His 3x CIB+ATS commanders did a lot of his damage, sounds like he played conservatively with them but also tried to get 6 turns of shooting out of them.

He ignored tough nuts like knights until all the rest were taken out first. He took all semites on small drone units. He used drones to tie up shooting units in CC.

He preferred high BS markerlights ans velocity trackers due to lots of hit modifier armies.

He only included 5 FW because of NOVA missions punishing you for losing all troops.

Hed use the pathfinder drones with scout moves to move block.

I dont think this style is possible without Riptides. I also this he may have suffered vs some shootier armies but doesnt look like he hit any snags.

Iron-Fist wrote:
From the Siegler podcast.

He bullied with riptides backed up by a ton of drones, took ground mid field, and played fast aiming for 6 turns every game. He used the small drone squads to block out GSC and other deep strikers. He used the grave drones hidden in building corners for the same. He kept his riptides alive all 6 turns, wearing down enemies over long periods of time. His 3x CIB+ATS commanders did a lot of his damage, sounds like he played conservatively with them but also tried to get 6 turns of shooting out of them.

He ignored tough nuts like knights until all the rest were taken out first. He took all semites on small drone units. He used drones to tie up shooting units in CC.

He preferred high BS markerlights ans velocity trackers due to lots of hit modifier armies.

He only included 5 FW because of NOVA missions punishing you for losing all troops.

Hed use the pathfinder drones with scout moves to move block.

I dont think this style is possible without Riptides. I also this he may have suffered vs some shootier armies but doesnt look like he hit any snags.

The style works perfectly well without Riptides or a least many elements of it do. As an Enclave player I would replace 1 CIB Commander with a Coldstar Fusion Blades who 6" heroic interventions into the enemy to block them them in CC. Although it could be argued to be less efficient I would replace a Riptide with a CIB Crisis team with +1BS on deep strike. Sometimes I give the Coldstar a shield gen and Drone controller on top of Fusion blades so I can Deep strike Gundrones into a suitable location or boost snipers.

The sniper drones advance forward with the army on turn 1 and/or Ghostkeel and 3 VT Steathsuits. Although my army list is very different from what I have seen the style of play is not that dissimilar. Most of the time I advanced the entire army into the middle of the board on turn 1 and try to use moment. infiltrate and CC as much as possible with my optimal range being sub 18". I am not saying my list is anywhere near as good as Siegler but his style of play is not unique just rare. I fully agree with his style of being mobile with movement and CC being very important, its just how I play.

Enclave benefit a lot from his style as we get reroll 1's on wounds at short range. Getting those CIB Commanders into short range with reroll 1's on wound can be nasty.

His list works primarily through only using the absolute most cost effective units over a 6 turn time line, hence riptides (T7, 2+/3++), commanders (T5 6w characters), and a flood of shield drones (4++/5+++ fly toughest 10 pt wound in the game).

Crisis suits do marginally more damage per point than riptides and die insanely faster, thus no crisis suits.

Farisght enclaves works well with a big crisis blob deep striking, but that blob isnt doing damage turn 1 and again dies faster than riptides. And 12" isnt ideal, being comfortable moving upfield is not the same thing as daring people to assault you every turn. Even then, Tau wins by doubling overwatch, doing more damage on average than rerolling 1's twice.

The commanders stay at like 18" the whole time, cuz again they do damage over 6 turns.

Sniper drones, ghostkneel, and stealth teams are just kinda bad compared to riptides. They're bad even compared to broadsides or crisis honestly.

I think fusion or dakka cold stars compete in his list, but CIB better point for point.

Iron-Fist wrote:
His list works primarily through only using the absolute most cost effective units over a 6 turn time line, hence riptides (T7, 2+/3++), commanders (T5 6w characters), and a flood of shield drones (4++/5+++ fly toughest 10 pt wound in the game).

Crisis suits do marginally more damage per point than riptides and die insanely faster, thus no crisis suits.

Farisght enclaves works well with a big crisis blob deep striking, but that blob isnt doing damage turn 1 and again dies faster than riptides. And 12" isnt ideal, being comfortable moving upfield is not the same thing as daring people to assault you every turn. Even then, Tau wins by doubling overwatch, doing more damage on average than rerolling 1's twice.

The commanders stay at like 18" the whole time, cuz again they do damage over 6 turns.

Sniper drones, ghostkneel, and stealth teams are just kinda bad compared to riptides. They're bad even compared to broadsides or crisis honestly.

I think fusion or dakka cold stars compete in his list, but CIB better point for point.

Sniper drones are not bad they serve a different role. You use them not to maximise kills but to destroy enemy force multipliers which can have a lot bigger impact on the game then just looking at the amount of points they kill. Its why I now take 2 full size squads of them and plan to get more for 3 squads. I prefer them over Broadsides at the moment. (I don’t run Shadowsun Broadside castle builds)

As for rerolling's 1’s to wound against Tau sept overwatch its not that simple as Tau sept always do more damage on average. Tau sept overwatch can certainly at times do massive damage but in my last tournament I got way more damage out of rerolling 1’s on wound then I could have got from better overwatch. For example an enemy flyer came point blank into my deployment in an attempt to blast the warlord off the map. My Enclave units moved point blank with the rerolling wounds of 1 causing the flyer to get destroy in 1 turn. The rest of his army was knights and tanks. Overwatch was not really a factor that game but rerolling 1's on wound was big time.

Then again that tournament was very different to NOVA and cannot really be directly compared.

Yup, better overwatch is useless if your opponent is not going to charge you.

Looking at starting Tau. Are there different kits for the xv84, 85,86 suits?
Are the xv8 crises box with the 3 guys in it the ones you use for the xv8 commander?

The 85 (enforcer) and 86(coldstar) are the same kit. The xv84 is a forgeworld variant that is no longer available.

Yes you can build a commander out of the crisis box. However get the enforcer with cyclic ion Blasters they are really good. Coldstars are great but tend to be assassin's.

 captain collius wrote:
The 85 (enforcer) and 86(coldstar) are the same kit. The xv84 is a forgeworld variant that is no longer available.

Yes you can build a commander out of the crisis box. However get the enforcer with cyclic ion Blasters they are really good. Coldstars are great but tend to be assassin's.

This, though sadly you only get 1 Cyclic per commander box, because GW hates fun.

If you're looking into getting Tau, just remember that you never buy the box of XV8 Crisis Suits, just buy Start Collecting Tau until you've got all the Crisis Suits you need, because Strike Teams/Breachers fill out your troops choices and the Ethereal doesn't suck (though multiples are generally unnecessary, he's basically free along with discounted Crisis Team and Strike Team).

 captain collius wrote:
The 85 (enforcer) and 86(coldstar) are the same kit. The xv84 is a forgeworld variant that is no longer available.

Yes you can build a commander out of the crisis box. However get the enforcer with cyclic ion Blasters they are really good. Coldstars are great but tend to be assassin's.

Yea, ive noticed this. Been scrounging 3rd party bit sties. So far 3 of Broadside, Riptieds, XV85 Commanders, and some FW and Pathfinders is on the shopping list.

The XV-84 is the one with the scorpion tail thing over the head?

Are the XV9's on FW worth getting?

 Dynas wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
The 85 (enforcer) and 86(coldstar) are the same kit. The xv84 is a forgeworld variant that is no longer available.

Yes you can build a commander out of the crisis box. However get the enforcer with cyclic ion Blasters they are really good. Coldstars are great but tend to be assassin's.

Yea, ive noticed this. Been scrounging 3rd party bit sties. So far 3 of Broadside, Riptieds, XV85 Commanders, and some FW and Pathfinders is on the shopping list.

The XV-84 is the one with the scorpion tail thing over the head?

Are the XV9's on FW worth getting?

If you list build for them they can be, but it also depends upon what the upcoming FAQ and CA say, if your still buying into the army I would leave them for just now but they can do some good work and also allow some more unusual playstyles.

It also depends if someone wants to be anti fun and start with the no FW nonsence aswell. Thankfully it's less common but it still comes up every so often, and is unfortunately how ETC play

 John Prins wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
The 85 (enforcer) and 86(coldstar) are the same kit. The xv84 is a forgeworld variant that is no longer available.

Yes you can build a commander out of the crisis box. However get the enforcer with cyclic ion Blasters they are really good. Coldstars are great but tend to be assassin's.

This, though sadly you only get 1 Cyclic per commander box, because GW hates fun.

If you're looking into getting Tau, just remember that you never buy the box of XV8 Crisis Suits, just buy Start Collecting Tau until you've got all the Crisis Suits you need, because Strike Teams/Breachers fill out your troops choices and the Ethereal doesn't suck (though multiples are generally unnecessary, he's basically free along with discounted Crisis Team and Strike Team).

Also the start collecting is a good source of drones.

And you are very correct about the annoyance of make it the best gun available ... give one bit in a 55 dollar box. That said you can get them online (probably resin recast) or proxy those useless plasma guns as them if you magnetize.

 captain collius wrote:

And you are very correct about the annoyance of make it the best gun available ... give one bit in a 55 dollar box. That said you can get them online (probably resin recast) or proxy those useless plasma guns as them if you magnetize.

Why Forge World doesn't just make a resin 5-10 pack of these things I'll never know. It would sell stupid amounts and would literally require just putting a plastic CiB in a mold.

However, there are multiple websites with resin CiB variants and Shapeways also has several versions.

I am trying to make sure I understand this Greater Good and normal overwatch interaction. Is the below explanation correct?

You can only Greater Good one time per unit. You cannot normal Overwatch AFTER using the Greater Good. However, a unit can still "normal overwatch" for itself as much as it wants(say if charged by a unit which fails, then another unit charges it can Overwatch again, etc...)

If enemy declares a charge against multiple Tau units to charge then each unit can fire per "normal overwatch." (without using Greater Good). THEN if able and within 6” of another unit that is charged (even if that unit used Regular overwatch) it can now use its For the Greater Good.

Is this correct?

 Dynas wrote:
I am trying to make sure I understand this Greater Good and normal overwatch interaction. Is the below explanation correct?

You can only Greater Good one time per unit. You cannot normal Overwatch AFTER using the Greater Good. However, a unit can still "normal overwatch" for itself as much as it wants(say if charged by a unit which fails, then another unit charges it can Overwatch again, etc...)

If enemy declares a charge against multiple Tau units to charge then each unit can fire per "normal overwatch." (without using Greater Good). THEN if able and within 6” of another unit that is charged (even if that unit used Regular overwatch) it can now use its For the Greater Good.

Is this correct?

Right. Units can do normal overwatch again and again if there is no enemy unit within 1" of them. Using Greater Good exhausts that unit's ability to Overwatch that turn, however.

This can lead to weird sequences where units use Greater Good to protect other units, get charged, cannot use Overwatch, but the units it protected still can and use Greater Good to protect that unit.

Are the Ghostkeel and Stealthsuits a good combo. Infiltrating deploying the stealthsuits first just outside opponent deployment so you can possibly get a closer than 9" charge. Then charging in to 3 point a model and lock up in fight phase to not get shot. Then following turn Using the Positional Relay stratagem to TP away.

 Dynas wrote:
Are the Ghostkeel and Stealthsuits a good combo. Infiltrating deploying the stealthsuits first just outside opponent deployment so you can possibly get a closer than 9" charge. Then charging in to 3 point a model and lock up in fight phase to not get shot. Then following turn Using the Positional Relay stratagem to TP away.

Are there a lot of armies where Tau want to actively look to be in combat, especially telegraphing it so heavily during deployment where the enemy can put even a mediocre CC unit nearby?
Plus the chance you get seized and give it all up instantly.

What weapons do people usually go for on the Ghostkeel?
The Fusion Colider or the Ion Raker?

 dan2026 wrote:
What weapons do people usually go for on the Ghostkeel?
The Fusion Colider or the Ion Raker?

Ion raker just seems to be orders of magnitude better as a fusion collider could be only one shot the raker doesn't have this problem.

That said I still want one with all fusion for giggles.