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Depends on how you are intending the list to play, but personally I'm not a fan of the large infantry squads msu for CP anddue to tripointing. Additionally suits tend to be the place you pick up your heavier weapons, if someone brought a russ or such you might find battering through it with breachers a hard slog.
Also hybridised weapons only works on the longest range profile not the shorter 2 because GWFAQ
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/07 16:11:19
are hammerheads, ghostkeels, riptides, and skyrays even viable anymore?
I sold my tau when they gutted all the shenanigans i pulled (melee ghostkeels, piranha walls, single suit suicide deepstrike w/ fusions) so i have 0 idea how they work in 8th.
My roommate got into tau recently and has been trying to play Farsight Enclaves, but seems like no matter what he brings his army feels extremely lightweight vs my orks or admech.
Literally everything i was used to doing with tau is not a thing anymore, even markerlight mentality is different. So i am having mega difficulty trying to help him out.
He has a modest amount (40?) of firewarrior/breachers and i think 20 pathfinders, 6-9 crisis suits (i think he has 9 though i know he has 6 assembled), 2 flymanders, farsight, 2 railsides, 1 riptide/ghostkeel, and unsure how many but i know he has several tanks (devilfish/hammerhead/skyray) he just recently got super cheap from ebay...gotta love it when someone sells their army for cheap lol
He's been kinda down because he feels like he bought a useless army. I hear a lot of horror of tau, i just never see it myself so zilcho on validated tips from me
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/07 20:21:33
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
It's a hybrid between the old tripple riptide and drone spam lists and farsite crisis bomb list
Riptides are still money, comanders are good.
Hammerheads and skyrays need to be spammed with longstrike to be vaguely viable and die quickly.
Stealthsuits are good, goastkeels I personally don't rate.
Broadsides can work but lacking fly can get tarpitted badly.
Missilesides work railsides need magnarailrifles from the greater good book
Pathfinders die too easy with 5+ saves, he needs lots of drones.
Crisis suits only work in 1 unit with CP being fed to them.
He really would benifit from the greater good psychic awakening book.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/07 20:34:34
Ghostkeels are actually rather good when used properly, in my experience. Bring some stealth suits with shield drones and they last forever, while putting out good amounts of S8 firepower.
Hammerheads and Skyrays can be used, but they are much more glass-cannony due to not getting shield drone support.
Riptides are stars, and commanders are good. Firewarriors do good as well, can bring lots for reasonable price, and you might as well have fireblades to fill out HQ slots after you bring max commanders.
Crisis suits can be reasonable with the right build. I have some flamer suits I need to paint, to run with the new range boost sept.
Yaktan wrote: Ghostkeels are actually rather good when used properly, in my experience. Bring some stealth suits with shield drones and they last forever, while putting out good amounts of S8 firepower.
Hammerheads and Skyrays can be used, but they are much more glass-cannony due to not getting shield drone support.
Riptides are stars, and commanders are good. Firewarriors do good as well, can bring lots for reasonable price, and you might as well have fireblades to fill out HQ slots after you bring max commanders.
Crisis suits can be reasonable with the right build. I have some flamer suits I need to paint, to run with the new range boost sept.
I find smart opponents just lift the -1 to hit drones first and then T6 with -1 to hit and 3+Sv goes buy buy fast even worse vrs assualt lists.
I find smart opponents just lift the -1 to hit drones first and then T6 with -1 to hit and 3+Sv goes buy buy fast even worse vrs assualt lists.
The 24 inch Assault armament on the Ghostkeel helps to mitigate that. Park it somewhere at the edge of plink range, keep the stealth drones out of sight, and go to town. If they do draw fire, theyve already done their job by distracting from your riptides, commanders and crisis suits.
Toss in a shield generator and they can take a surprising amount of firepower.
I find smart opponents just lift the -1 to hit drones first and then T6 with -1 to hit and 3+Sv goes buy buy fast even worse vrs assualt lists.
The 24 inch Assault armament on the Ghostkeel helps to mitigate that. Park it somewhere at the edge of plink range, keep the stealth drones out of sight, and go to town. If they do draw fire, theyve already done their job by distracting from your riptides, commanders and crisis suits.
Toss in a shield generator and they can take a surprising amount of firepower.
I wish I felt it was worth it's point's but trying to make it work has always made me feel it's just too squishy. Though I think this is more an issue of the Toughness values for vehicles and monsters having been artificially restrained a T7 ghostkeel and a T8 riptide would feel more worthwhile, much like T8 would help a lot of vehicals and T9 on landraiders would make them actually playable.
Yeah, the Shield generator is a big help as well--there are just so many fail states for people shooting at it. Also, I run two together, which means more stealth drones they have to get through, plus the shield drones, and I run Shadowsun as well, so they need to get through her drones. Its a big ball 'o stealthy fun, and really puts out the hurt on things like knights. Oh, you have a 4++? Well, most of my damage is S8 AP -1, so lol!
Also, you would be surprised at how hard it is for people to figure out they need to shoot drones instead of the big dudes. It is obvious for us, playing Tau, but for other people they do not make the connection as easily.
When they separate from the unit after deployment are they still considered valid targets for objectives n whatnot? I know that was a thing before where unless they were bought as a Drone squad they didnt offer anything (which is one reason why i loved my Piranha wall when i still had Tau in 7th, 10 drones that didnt yield any points on top of a 200pt annoyingly wide wall) Also, when they separate theyre 1 unit of drones, not each drone is individual right?
One of the reasons i feel like im completely stomping my roommie is all the drones counting as separate units, so i snag crap like "kill 6 units" for big points super easy. The fact that i used to own tau means very little in how i fight them since they are not even remotely playing the same way anymore. I always target the drones first, especially the special drones since i couldnt find any rule keeping them safe (guardian drones) and pathfinders second. And its not hard to do that, im guessing he just doesnt bring enough drones (i wanna say ~20 in a 2k game)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/09 11:45:04
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
When they separate from the unit after deployment are they still considered valid targets for objectives n whatnot? I know that was a thing before where unless they were bought as a Drone squad they didnt offer anything (which is one reason why i loved my Piranha wall when i still had Tau in 7th, 10 drones that didnt yield any points on top of a 200pt annoyingly wide wall)
Also, when they separate theyre 1 unit of drones, not each drone is individual right?
One of the reasons i feel like im completely stomping my roommie is all the drones counting as separate units, so i snag crap like "kill 6 units" for big points super easy.
Depends how they are taken, taken with crisis suits all the dones taken as wargear for the units form 1 drone squad, but if you have a broasdie with 1 drone and commander with 1 drone and a squad with 1 drone they are 3 units. So yes how you add drones to your list is a skill these days.
Unfortunately they have 2 basic playstyles that are competitive 1 3 riptides and drones with comanders.
The other option is Farsight comander spam and crisis bomb, but that only came out just before everything shutdown, so event results are limited.
Pathfinders I have lost the will to even attempt to make pathfinders work, too squishy and they get picked up and you loose your markerlights, which also only hit on 4+, and it's heavy so that oftten becomes 5+.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/09 11:53:25
He's a major gundam fan so of course he wants to run as many suits as he can lol.
Feel bad for him that tau REALLY dont like playing the way he was hoping.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
It's a hybrid between the old tripple riptide and drone spam lists and farsite crisis bomb list
Riptides are still money, comanders are good.
Hammerheads and skyrays need to be spammed with longstrike to be vaguely viable and die quickly.
Stealthsuits are good, goastkeels I personally don't rate.
Broadsides can work but lacking fly can get tarpitted badly.
Missilesides work railsides need magnarailrifles from the greater good book
Pathfinders die too easy with 5+ saves, he needs lots of drones.
Crisis suits only work in 1 unit with CP being fed to them.
He really would benifit from the greater good psychic awakening book.
1. No where near enough drones.
2. No crisis suits of any kind, especially commanders should have burst anything (there is 1 exception and you aren't choosing the relic that goes with it, so no Air Burst Frags, nor burst cannons of any kind). Nor should you be investing in shield generators when you can field more guns.
3. Yes you'll have to cut some suits, but that is OK, quality firepower is better than quantity models, provided you have enough shield drones.
It's a hybrid between the old tripple riptide and drone spam lists and farsite crisis bomb list
Riptides are still money, comanders are good.
Hammerheads and skyrays need to be spammed with longstrike to be vaguely viable and die quickly.
Stealthsuits are good, goastkeels I personally don't rate.
Broadsides can work but lacking fly can get tarpitted badly.
Missilesides work railsides need magnarailrifles from the greater good book
Pathfinders die too easy with 5+ saves, he needs lots of drones.
Crisis suits only work in 1 unit with CP being fed to them.
He really would benifit from the greater good psychic awakening book.
1. No where near enough drones.
2. No crisis suits of any kind, especially commanders should have burst anything (there is 1 exception and you aren't choosing the relic that goes with it, so no Air Burst Frags, nor burst cannons of any kind). Nor should you be investing in shield generators when you can field more guns.
3. Yes you'll have to cut some suits, but that is OK, quality firepower is better than quantity models, provided you have enough shield drones.
The lack of Drones is semi intentional, I'm trying to play my list a slightly differentwith threat saturation.
2 The commander your refering to has a distinct purpose of objectives or postman for secondary points.
I disagree on the shields to easy for marine lists and others to make 3+ saves become 5 or 6+ Saves these days. I'll trade that 1 or 2 weapons for not having lost 5 crisis suits in a turn
Airbust frags if you need to chipaway at obsec units behind a wall help, though the weapon spread is because I'm still trying to test out the lists good and bad match ups to find out what weakness it can carry and what match ups need optimised weapons.
3 Unfortunately I've not been able to get the games in to test and refine the concept yet but I agree the 9 man bomb is a bit ott, also think stealth suits are needed and drones will be mixed in and out as playtesting continues.
Thanks for the input and hope to update once lcokdown ends and games etc can be had.
You know what I wish would come back? Fish of Fury (not the weird turn these to block LOS shenanigans). Absolutely loved the idea of an entire mechanized army backed up with Crisis and Broadside suits.
Biggest issue with Tau now seems to be how good drones are so you see people spamming them rather than real units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/12 11:15:56
I wasn't referring to a commander... the airburst + AP reduction prototype combo goes on the large crisis team. If you run the math vs the cross linked jets, AP reduction provides greater durabilty and that unit against itself wins.
Threat saturation is having volume of fire so that you are removing an average number of models off the board. But to do that you need durability so that each turn you are equally effective, until you have achieved control of the game. If you compare a sheild generator to a sheild drone.. the cost is about the same, but if the drone gets wounded... you lose a 10pt drone, if the crisis suit gets wounded... you lose 1 or 2 wounds on a 60pt model... i.e. 20pts to 40pts is lost. Which is a better trade?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wayniac wrote: You know what I wish would come back? Fish of Fury (not the weird turn these to block LOS shenanigans). Absolutely loved the idea of an entire mechanized army backed up with Crisis and Broadside suits.
Biggest issue with Tau now seems to be how good drones are so you see people spamming them rather than real units.
That was fun, even if you just had two devilfish, and 3 units of crisis suits. I did that in 4th edition with farsight enclaves (when that was a real limitation on your army) and took best general in a 64 person tournament. So much fun, and your army looked like a real balanced army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/12 16:27:35
Sazzlefrats wrote: I wasn't referring to a commander... the airburst + AP reduction prototype combo goes on the large crisis team. If you run the math vs the cross linked jets, AP reduction provides greater durabilty and that unit against itself wins.
Threat saturation is having volume of fire so that you are removing an average number of models off the board. But to do that you need durability so that each turn you are equally effective, until you have achieved control of the game. If you compare a sheild generator to a sheild drone.. the cost is about the same, but if the drone gets wounded... you lose a 10pt drone, if the crisis suit gets wounded... you lose 1 or 2 wounds on a 60pt model... i.e. 20pts to 40pts is lost. Which is a better trade?
Are you sure your playing the CFD correctly as it only works on 1 model against shooting and I have found that a lot of armies can bring CC to bare on the crisis bomb if your puting them to work, Though in all honesty I think you need to be picking the systems on the fly each each systems value is very dependent upon the opponents list, it's worth in some games and not others.
To be honest the drones I'll agree is area but I found the amount of CP required to maximise the crisis bomb limited army construction.
They can happily use 6 CP or 8CP per battle round I expect to spend 4-6 turn 2 and 2-4 turn 3 on them which is brutal but they can put so much hurt onto people it's silly.
I'm just so not into playing the same old same old triptide list, and deviation from the tried and tested is always a risk, it's not supposed to be a finished product it's trying to make crisis suits work but coming back to them having not played for a fee months and rechecking the list, it highlights part of the issue with fixing bad unit design with strategums, which is without CP they quickly get worse.
CFD... you mean reactive countermeasures? Yes its 1 model, and you load that model up with Sheild Gen and Iridium Armor.... makes him real tough (and the unit) against Ap 0,1, & 2 shooting, until he's dead, l use drones to soak bigger stuff. Yes that unit can use a lot of CP, but... you don't need BS2 every turn. This is a system you pick before you know your opponent. Everything else can be done on the fly.
I change my list all the time, however, dumping 28 of 36 drones (regardless of what you can replace them with) is not going to yield satisfactory results. I run somewhere between 0-2 riptides, 1-6 commanders, 3-9 crisis bomb and up to 3x3 broadsides, the only thing that is absolutely constant in my lists is the number of drones I'm running based on how competitive I judge my opponents will be. At the LFGS, I run 12-24 drones, depending who in my gaming group, I'm good with 12 to 24, but for two players its 30+ or bust. One thing I like is that FSE while the crisis bomb potentially CP intensive, its also really effective with just a single markerlight result. And later turns of the game 3+, well definately 4+ you don't need much CP.
Maybe it's just bad luck but I found it's one of those easy enough to throw fire into the unit untill the first wound dropped and then go ham on the high AP as any wounds have to go to the wounded model, or CC though that may also be an issue of playing against marines, who just seem to be dripping in AP, and most units being no slouch in CC.
Unfortunately I find myself autoplaying the 5 markerlights on a target strategum often, unless I'm hiting MSU spam when drop zone is the go to, CNC node seems to be on avarage the better option over crosslinked, but it also turns it into needing the foot print to be able to drop 10 suits into which can be an issue.
I think I'll try a 3 man minimum buffed team and see how they perform when I can get back to playing.
May just be me but I still find that the weapons for crisis suits feel like they are pointed from comanders first and then crisis suits are just expected to pay the same.
Broadsides with the maga rifkes look nice but lacking fly just feels like suck a liability for a number of match ups especially with the number of armies starting to bring close combat threats that rely on tripoint
So out of curiosity, I've been looking at Tau stuff since I've never actually played them but have been interested in them maybe 5 or so times since they first came out in 2001 (which I fondly remember). With the current meta:
1) I know Drones are good, can you avoid doing a ton of drone spam and be good? I just don't relish the idea of a Tau army of mostly Shield Drones or whatever; a big unit or two small units or something is fine.
2) Are Crisis Suits decent again? They have always been one of the cooler parts of Tau. If so what weapons? Back in my day (heh) I remember you had like Plasma/Missile or Burst/Missile and stuff like that and they had cool names like Death Blossom or Fireknife. I guess now you want to specialize?
3) How about Broadsides and tanks? Hammerheads look really cool, and the new Broadside models look super cool to me (especially compared to the old one that had the railguns over is shoulders). I'm sure Riptides are still OP but they look awesome too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/14 12:56:14
Wayniac wrote: So out of curiosity, I've been looking at Tau stuff since I've never actually played them but have been interested in them maybe 5 or so times since they first came out in 2001 (which I fondly remember). With the current meta:
1) I know Drones are good, can you avoid doing a ton of drone spam and be good? I just don't relish the idea of a Tau army of mostly Shield Drones or whatever; a big unit or two small units or something is fine.
2) Are Crisis Suits decent again? They have always been one of the cooler parts of Tau. If so what weapons? Back in my day (heh) I remember you had like Plasma/Missile or Burst/Missile and stuff like that and they had cool names like Death Blossom or Fireknife. I guess now you want to specialize?
3) How about Broadsides and tanks? Hammerheads look really cool, and the new Broadside models look super cool to me (especially compared to the old one that had the railguns over is shoulders). I'm sure Riptides are still OP but they look awesome too.
First very important question: how competitive are you looking to get? If you're looking at bleeding-edge top-table or bust, there are certain list-building concessions that have to be made. If on the other hand you're looking at friendly semi-competitive play, there are a *LOT* more units that more than earn their keep.
Wayniac wrote: So out of curiosity, I've been looking at Tau stuff since I've never actually played them but have been interested in them maybe 5 or so times since they first came out in 2001 (which I fondly remember). With the current meta:
1) I know Drones are good, can you avoid doing a ton of drone spam and be good? I just don't relish the idea of a Tau army of mostly Shield Drones or whatever; a big unit or two small units or something is fine.
2) Are Crisis Suits decent again? They have always been one of the cooler parts of Tau. If so what weapons? Back in my day (heh) I remember you had like Plasma/Missile or Burst/Missile and stuff like that and they had cool names like Death Blossom or Fireknife. I guess now you want to specialize?
3) How about Broadsides and tanks? Hammerheads look really cool, and the new Broadside models look super cool to me (especially compared to the old one that had the railguns over is shoulders). I'm sure Riptides are still OP but they look awesome too.
First very important question: how competitive are you looking to get? If you're looking at bleeding-edge top-table or bust, there are certain list-building concessions that have to be made. If on the other hand you're looking at friendly semi-competitive play, there are a *LOT* more units that more than earn their keep.
I'd say somewhere in between. Semi-competitive? Not like final round LVO ITC spam list but not lose every game at the local game store because GW sucks at balance either.
Wayniac wrote: I'd say somewhere in between. Semi-competitive? Not like final round LVO ITC spam list but not lose every game at the local game store because GW sucks at balance either.
This actually provides for a ton of unit variety in my experience. So to run down your specific questions with specific answers:
1) You can likely get away with attached drone units instead of going for the big blob o drones. The duos from Fire Warrior teams and Commanders for instance add up quickly, and can still provide a lot of survivability benefits for Riptides, Commanders and Crisis Suits. Plus its far less obnoxious to play against, so thats a plus in friendly environments. I typically run about 12-18 in that manner and do well.
2) Crisis Suits are back in town, but require the FSE "Veteran Cadre" strat to function. Pushing to a base 3+ BS / 4+ WS is huuuuuge when combined with the various support tools available in the Tau codex via strats and other abilities. As to weapons, that's a very individualized question. CiBs and Missiles seem to be the most common uses at present, but there are cases to be made for massed Burst Cannons, or possibly even flamers (the latter being not the most effective, but in a friendlier environment, with the right build thanks to PA they can do work). I personally go for dual CiB + ATS on my six-pack of madlads.
3) Broadsides are very potent. Missilesides with reroll support will delete whatever you point them at, while the new Magna rail rifle gives Railsides a new lease on life. Their lack of fly is an issue, but that's what drones and Fire Warriors are for (also the top floor of ruins). Hammerheads likewise can also do work, though they generally rely on being part of the Longstrike-star configuration.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/14 13:59:10
Wayniac wrote: Hmm. I'm not too interested in FSE but that's good to know and something to consider.
Enclaves got a massive boost with PA. Their Sept tenet is basically a baked in SM Captain + LT while close in, and they are the only Sept that can double up on Commanders in a detachment.
A Vanguard of a Veteran Cadre, a pair of Firesights and a duo of Commanders is an exceptional supporting component to just about any Tau army.
Personally, their aggressive nature is a whole lot of fun to play.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/14 14:13:25
Wayniac wrote: Hmm. I'm not too interested in FSE but that's good to know and something to consider.
Enclaves got a massive boost with PA. Their Sept tenet is basically a baked in SM Captain + LT while close in, and they are the only Sept that can double up on Commanders in a detachment.
A Vanguard of a Veteran Cadre, a pair of Firesights and a duo of Commanders is an exceptional supporting component to just about any Tau army.
Personally, their aggressive nature is a whole lot of fun to play.
I've read on Goonhammer that you also consider doing the DIY sept and taking the bonus that increases the AP of missile pods and one of the other good ones.
Do you want to take multiples of the same weapon then on Crisis suits? Like all of one type rather than the old plasma/missile type combos?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/15 00:59:08
Wayniac wrote: I've read on Goonhammer that you also consider doing the DIY sept and taking the bonus that increases the AP of missile pods and one of the other good ones.
If you're running Missilesides or Missile Commanders that Sept tenet is solid. Most other units dont generate the amount of firepower necessary for it to pay off.
Hey guys!, looking at jumping back into Tau with the Army focused around tanks. Idea is the field and armored company of sorts and take as many Hammerheads as possible which includes their FW variants. However when it comes to the Fire Support Hammerheads I am somewhat at a loss as to what to equip them with. Has anyone here had experience running them and what advice would you give as to how to equip them? I appreciate your feedback and thank you!
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.