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Its really going to come down to how the Commander limit is handled. The one per-detachment restriction really seems to run counter to the design intent of 9th to reduce detachment numbers.

Ice_can wrote:
So what's everyone's thoughts Tau wise on how your going to be structuring your lists?

So far it's certainly looking like putting everything into one battalion is achievable, Howevrr with the commander limit it does seem like FSE will be the way to play IMHO unless it gets Errata'd.

I'd be very surprised if the errata'd the new commander rule so soon after releasing it. It seems it'll penalize us quite a bit CP wise to get all commanders now though. Hopefully if just costs 1 CP for a patrol detachment so we can bring 4 more commanders and 2 troops in two patrol detachments in addition to a battalion, costing us a total of 2 CP. I think that'd be a good trade.

 killerpenguin wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
So what's everyone's thoughts Tau wise on how your going to be structuring your lists?

So far it's certainly looking like putting everything into one battalion is achievable, Howevrr with the commander limit it does seem like FSE will be the way to play IMHO unless it gets Errata'd.

I'd be very surprised if the errata'd the new commander rule so soon after releasing it. It seems it'll penalize us quite a bit CP wise to get all commanders now though. Hopefully if just costs 1 CP for a patrol detachment so we can bring 4 more commanders and 2 troops in two patrol detachments in addition to a battalion, costing us a total of 2 CP. I think that'd be a good trade.

Given GW referenced the Raiding party rule for Drukari I suspect pateol is probably 2CP as that would leave tripple patrol Drukari CP Neutral with CP costs being balanced with the Raiding part bonus CP.
2CP for 2 commanders starts to feel ouchy

I will be so happy once commander spam is not viable anymore.

Aeri wrote:
I will be so happy once commander spam is not viable anymore.

It hasnt been "viable", or even mechanically possible, since the beginning of 8th.

Ice_can wrote:

2CP for 2 commanders starts to feel ouchy

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

2CP for 2 commanders starts to feel ouchy

That's not bad... 12 - 4 = 8. And you'll take 1 trait, and 1 relic (pure tide engram). And possibly you might go for 1 extra relic (counter fire thrusters or the AP bullet catcher one)... so you'll start the game with 7cp. +6+up to 6 more... so up to 19, probably 15 overall in an average game. I think that's plenty. I just made my first 9th FSE 6 commander list, its the same list mostly.

Yeah I'm already hitting limitations in CP with taking crisis bomb.
Prototype Ion accelerator and CFDS for the bomb is 2 relics down spend 2CP to get 6 (which usually doesn't work for me don't roll enough 6's) or take the Talismans of Moloch in appropriate match ups. Thats 3 to 5CP before going to add another patrol for 2CP at which point I down to starting on 6CP +6 vrs 8ths 9CP still up CP but I'm not sure I'd want to push it to 2 patrols as thats stattingnthe game on 4 CP using the cover strategum if you go second is 2CP and your down to waiting on the drip feed of CP, think I'll stick to fewer commanders with more CP as that Bomb can become quite the wall of a unit with enough CP spend.

Ice_can wrote:

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

2CP for 2 commanders starts to feel ouchy

That's not bad... 12 - 4 = 8. And you'll take 1 trait, and 1 relic (pure tide engram). And possibly you might go for 1 extra relic (counter fire thrusters or the AP bullet catcher one)... so you'll start the game with 7cp. +6+up to 6 more... so up to 19, probably 15 overall in an average game. I think that's plenty. I just made my first 9th FSE 6 commander list, its the same list mostly.

Yeah I'm already hitting limitations in CP with taking crisis bomb.
Prototype Ion accelerator and CFDS for the bomb is 2 relics down spend 2CP to get 6 (which usually doesn't work for me don't roll enough 6's) or take the Talismans of Moloch in appropriate match ups. Thats 3 to 5CP before going to add another patrol for 2CP at which point I down to starting on 6CP +6 vrs 8ths 9CP still up CP but I'm not sure I'd want to push it to 2 patrols as thats stattingnthe game on 4 CP using the cover strategum if you go second is 2CP and your down to waiting on the drip feed of CP, think I'll stick to fewer commanders with more CP as that Bomb can become quite the wall of a unit with enough CP spend.

I second this, I’d probably end up at 5 CP after 2 patrols, RCM, 6+ CP regain relic and 2 CP for veterans. With gaining 1 each round and potentially 1 additional each round with the relic, is gonna be low considering all the great stratagems(and probably a few new ones), but I guess I’ll just have to use them sparingly.

So i guess the velocity tracker is obsolete now with the new rules. Stu said on the 40k stream that only infantry will get -1 to hit from moving and firing heavy weapons in 9th. ed.

 killerpenguin wrote:
So i guess the velocity tracker is obsolete now with the new rules. Stu said on the 40k stream that only infantry will get -1 to hit from moving and firing heavy weapons in 9th. ed.

You mean Target Lock, Also makes the build your own spet rule that allows you to get a free target lock pointless.

Looks like day 1 errata is going to need to be extensive, still leaves Hammerheads as junk though.

Ice_can wrote:

Looks like day 1 errata is going to need to be extensive, still leaves Hammerheads as junk though.

Wot? The Longstrike-star benefits exceptionally from this rule change. 2+ BS on the move is toasty.

Biggest issue is what is going to happen with Stabilization Systems, Target Locks, and Markerlights.

Sterling191 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Looks like day 1 errata is going to need to be extensive, still leaves Hammerheads as junk though.

Wot? The Longstrike-star benefits exceptionally from this rule change. 2+ BS on the move is toasty.

Biggest issue is what is going to happen with Stabilization Systems, Target Locks, and Markerlights.

Needing a sept locked nammed charictor to be viable still makes them feel trash to me longstrike is a beast yes but hammerheads without him

Hammerheads issue was more the lack of durability in that list IMHO
Also roumer has it fly will nolonger allow fall back and shooting, big nerf.
Railguns still 1 shot and lacking in damage, Ion cannons will be okay but a hammerhead with smart missile systems is not shooting it's way out of combat reliably enough.

Also it locks you to tau sept and 1 commanders before you pay another 2 or More CP for a second detachment.

Compair that to FSE you get 2 commanders per detachment and auto marketlight and reroll wound rolls of 1.

Yeah, I hope they look at durability and firepower of tanks while they're seemingly putting an emphasis on making vehicles more fun.

Overall though the heavy weapons change is a pretty decent buff for Tau, freeing up nearly-mandatory support systems, or a sept tenant, on basically all of the heavy hitters.
Does make you wonder how/if they're going to errata those things to work differently.

Target lock's still useful for assault.

Welp, Crisis Suits were fun while they lasted.

Kneel before Darkstrider and Stealth Suits! KNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL!

For those unaware, Stealth Suits have both the "Battlesuit" and "Infantry" keywords. Darkstrider allows for T'au Sept Infantry within 6" to attack with ranged weapons even if they fell back that turn.

Not gonna lie, a Darkstrider battlesuit based list sounds like fun. If only he wasnt Tau sept locked...

In other news, looks like the Commander limit is here to stay. Going to be some hard choices made about CP.

Been thinking about the Codex Flyers:
The Razorshark doesn't get much besides the new aircraft deepstrike.
The Sunshark can now fire its Ion Rifles' heavy profile at no penalty (pretty big deal I think!) and do a bombing run that takes it off the field to come back later.

Razorshark @ 115pts:
4x S8 Ap-1 Dd3...at BS3+ vs. some targets!
2x S7 Ap-1 Dd3
2x Seekers

Sunshark's got @ 143 points:
Average of 8 shots @ S8 AP-1 D2 with the Ions
4x @ S7 AP-1 Dd3 with Missiles
plus a markerlight, bombs, and 2x seekers
(this seems clearly worth the 28 points over the Razorshark - you're nearly doubling your firepower at the cost of not getting to advance and shoot)

Compare to a Ghostkeel @ 144pts with CIR, burst cannons, shield gen and ATS:
6x S8 AP-2 Dd3
8x S5 Ap-1 D1
4++

Both at at -1 to hit (because of cap), Sunshark has 2 more wounds, much longer range (30" vs 24"-18"), a lower save @4+, no drone protection, can leave and come back, and bombs
Might be worth a look if the points stay proportional.

Forgeworld stuff gets pretty decent upgrades via the heavy weapon change as well.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Kneel before Darkstrider and Stealth Suits! KNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL!

For those unaware, Stealth Suits have both the "Battlesuit" and "Infantry" keywords. Darkstrider allows for T'au Sept Infantry within 6" to attack with ranged weapons even if they fell back that turn.

Like it's kinda neat but Steath Suits could already do that and weren't great, I don't see how they'll have changed much in that regard.

His point except not clearly made is that Darkstrider gives Tau Sept infantry 8th edition fly rules in fallback and shoot.

In 9th no-one can fall back and shoot.

Darkstrider allows 1 unit tl do so, Stealth suits have the correct keywords, and back the most firepower. They are also probably the most resilient platform for actual surviving long enough to make it worthwhile.

What kills it is he is Tau Sept yeah 5+ over watch is nice but 2CP per commander after the first no thanks.

Right I get that they're now a bit unique - my point is that they already had the ability in 8th and it wasn't really that useful. Just because they've become unique doesn't mean that they've become useful. Probably better to just take a Kroot screen, fall back, and use better shooting units.

As far as Commanders: You could take a 2CP Farsight patrol with two Commanders, a set of troops, and some drones. I could see that being pretty popular. Maybe even with a set of Vet Crisis suits.
When it gets down to it something like a Fusionmander works just fine not sharing sept with main detachment.
Doesn't change that the limit sucks and feels punitive from a time before the rule of three existed.

rbstr wrote:
Right I get that they're now a bit unique - my point is that they already had the ability in 8th and it wasn't really that useful. Just because they've become unique doesn't mean that they've become useful. Probably better to just take a Kroot screen, fall back, and use better shooting units.

As far as Commanders: You could take a 2CP Farsight patrol with two Commanders, a set of troops, and some drones. I could see that being pretty popular. Maybe even with a set of Vet Crisis suits.
When it gets down to it something like a Fusionmander works just fine not sharing sept with main detachment.
Doesn't change that the limit sucks and feels punitive from a time before the rule of three existed.

Yeah I tgibk most people will probably be primary detachment Farsight, as that way 2 Commanders in the initial detachment and 2CP more gets you up to 4 Commanders though with tge reduction in Charictor protection I suspect that commanders may be less go too options especially if they see points increases also Farsight rules looks alot better in 9th and it was bad in 8th.

Anyone else feeling Stormsurges are double dead now with one costing 3CP and 3 costing 6 CP?
Not even sure why they were even mentioned in the faction focus articals as they seem like one of the worst unitsbin the codex now.

They sounded fun until they didn't...

Ice_can wrote:
Anyone else feeling Stormsurges are double dead now with one costing 3CP and 3 costing 6 CP?
Not even sure why they were even mentioned in the faction focus articals as they seem like one of the worst unitsbin the codex now.

Sadly, barring considerable additional rules and points changes, there's going to be strong competition for that title.

So, based on leaks, it looks like basically every weapon we have with random shots is a blast weapon. EDIT: I missed something and this following stuff isn't right!


Interestingly the Ion Rifle is blast as well. Not really all that scary on Pathfinders since that profile is heavy
But...bringing this back around to my post about the Sunshark - You've now got two ways to shoot the maximum of 12 Ion Rifle shots: The strategem or against units of 6+. This guy is definitely a glass cannon but I think it's worth a look.
I think in a 2k point list I'm gonna try stuffing one into a Farsight Commander patrol. 2 Commanders, a set of breachers and a sunshark. Bomb something and maybe flee off table in the first turn. Come back anywhere in turn 2 and blast something. Hope you survive to t3 to bomb something, use the FSE bomb strategem, and blast something else.

Cluster rockets being blast is actually awesome

rbstr wrote:
So, based on leaks, it looks like basically every weapon we have with random shots is a blast weapon. Unfortunately they didn't break it down by profile.

Actually they do (I missed this at first as well). The header of the list states that "if a weapon has more than one profile, all the profiles with a random number of shots gain the blast ability". The implication is that if a profile has a set number of shots, it does *not* become a blast weapon, which jives with relics like the Hammer of Sunderance being on the list, while the Amplified Ion Accelerator or Fusion Obliterator are not.

Not that we're going to be hitting jack on 5+s with no markerlight support in melee, but there are still some options.

Ah! I read the list last night but my work computer won't let me see the images today to check for certain.

But yeah, in general it doesn't seem like you'll want to stick it out to the shooting phase in melee. Basically only if you're basically assured that you can finish something off.
You're not completely markerlight free in that case though. Aerial Targeting will let you put one on and FSE units will get one as well. At least it's a tactical choice to be made?

Other than that Hammerheads could be hitting on 4+ depending on what the damage dealt by the charge was. 3+ if Longstrike is around. Ion Cannons might be useful then, in that way.

rbstr wrote:
Ah! I read the list last night but my work computer won't let me see the images today to check for certain.

But yeah, in general it doesn't seem like you'll want to stick it out to the shooting phase in melee. Basically only if you're basically assured that you can finish something off.
You're not completely markerlight free in that case though. Aerial Targeting will let you put one on and FSE units will get one as well. At least it's a tactical choice to be made?

Other than that Hammerheads could be hitting on 4+ depending on what the damage dealt by the charge was. 3+ if Longstrike is around. Ion Cannons might be useful then, in that way.

Im actually thinking a little further afield. Gun drones would inherit the 3+ BS, are able to fire into melee since their weapons are considered to be arming the gunship itself, and can be buffed by Fireblades. Thats a dozen pulse shots into a bad-touching unit, which is going to hurt most chaff, and with FSE or custom sept support for at least rerolls of 1s is...not terrible.

Not that it solves the issue of Hammerhead survivability unfortunately.

Really not worried about the commander limit. paying 2 cp for a patrol to bring two FSE commanders is a no brainer.

6 is honestly overkill. because at that point it isn't the CP that's the problem it's the points. Everything is going to be more expensive, you won't have much of a screen left to actually protect your commanders.