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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I do not feel anywhere near as strongly about Tau in 8th as you do, but it's pretty clear that we got chopped down a bit too far in most areas. I've mentioned before that I figure the FLG dudes' involvement in playtesting had a lot to do with that, but if it's an emotional reaction that's responsible for our big suits' fall from grace, I would have expected Eldar to follow suit. In other words, I think they just screwed up.

Tau seem pretty weak overall, but we've got some shining stars in the mix. Gun Drones, in particular, are exceptionally good. Fire Warriors are very strong troops. Pathfinders are solid force multipliers for their cost. Commanders are potent offensive machines. Y'Vahras eat large units, especially vehicles like nothing else. Vespids are speedy and great for heavy infantry and light vehicles. It's not all bad.

Unfortunately, that's pretty much where the not-badness ends. We have far too many overcosted units to be diverse. We're like Tyranids were in 7th, in a lot of ways.
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Need I remind you that reece and co. in frontline where a major player in the beta testing?

As in, the guys who's stance about tau is that its better off if we didn't exist, and that even pulled off direct rule-contradicting nerfs to the army (despite it not even being on top, and never EVER giving a spesific nerf to another army)


I really hope fires of cyrax will fix tau's forgeworld department, because right now they best it can offer is "not overly terrible" with the burst XV9s, and anything else is simply unplayable, either due to sucking or due to the rules actually not functioning as written.

I mean, FFS, 3-in-1 markerlights? who the heck though that was a good idea?
Railshark can't fire his heavy rail cannons if it moves, and it can't not move.
outlandish point costs.
Units refer to wargear they don't have.
Gear that does nothing, or identical to other, differently named gear (an "upgraded shield generator" is identical to a "shield generator", remoras may or may not have target locks, etc)

Its like they took all the errors in the GW index and thought to themselves "how can we feth this up further"?

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BoomWolf wrote:
Need I remind you that reece and co. in frontline where a major player in the beta testing?

As in, the guys who's stance about tau is that its better off if we didn't exist, and that even pulled off direct rule-contradicting nerfs to the army (despite it not even being on top, and never EVER giving a spesific nerf to another army)


I really hope fires of cyrax will fix tau's forgeworld department, because right now they best it can offer is "not overly terrible" with the burst XV9s, and anything else is simply unplayable, either due to sucking or due to the rules actually not functioning as written.

I mean, FFS, 3-in-1 markerlights? who the heck though that was a good idea?
Railshark can't fire his heavy rail cannons if it moves, and it can't not move.
outlandish point costs.
Units refer to wargear they don't have.
Gear that does nothing, or identical to other, differently named gear (an "upgraded shield generator" is identical to a "shield generator", remoras may or may not have target locks, etc)

Its like they took all the errors in the GW index and thought to themselves "how can we feth this up further"?

You don't need to remind me. I've been calling out some of their dubious decisions from the start but it's only starting to pick up momentum that they might be wrong about stuff. Also even things that don't directly affect the Tau. The only thing protecting Tau from being nuked more in the ITC is the fact the the voters didn't put up with their BS too much. With GW side stepping the voting and letting them have all that power we end up with this. Geez.. I am so surprised. That is sarcasm for the tone deaf.
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





 BoomWolf wrote:
Need I remind you that reece and co. in frontline where a major player in the beta testing?

As in, the guys who's stance about tau is that its better off if we didn't exist, and that even pulled off direct rule-contradicting nerfs to the army (despite it not even being on top, and never EVER giving a spesific nerf to another army)


I'm curious when did Reece say this? Because I listen to Signals all the time at work and have never heard him say that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/26 04:56:20


 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




Cincinnati

Wow, I am surprised to see all the hate. I have to admit that I was a little down and skeptical before 8th dropped, but after my 3rd game, things are looking up in a BIG way. I've taken some strong wins away already. Do I play my Tau the same way that I did in 7th? NO! Is that a bad thing? HECK NO!

The list that I have been taking consists of 8 breacher squads in 4 devilfish, darkstrider, 3 fusion commanders with gun drones, and 3 crisis suits with gun drones. (Notice, no marker light support? I don't need it. It is too much baggage!)

This is a very simple list that plays EXTREMELY aggressively. It is fun to play, challenging and engaging to play, and it is very strong. The trick comes in positioning your devilfish to support your alpha striking commanders and crisis suits. The breachers are crazy deadly, and the fish are durable enough to get them where they need to be. Bonus points, the devilfish can drop off more drones for the commanders to soak up, AND they can charge enemy units to keep them from charging and (sometimes) shooting.

This list, more than any other wins in the movement phase. You HAVE to be thinking a turn ahead for your breacher placement.

I have not tried Vespids yet, but I would love to try them to either augment alpha strike with fusion and crisis, or replace crisis all together, depending.

GW has given us reason to have faith that they will adjust points and strength as needed. Put your riptides and broadsides up on the shelf, and wait for them to come back. Until then, dust off some devilfish, and have some fun playing a completely reworked army in an engaging and fun style. I'm kissing them for these changes, not cursing them. I can't be the only one that loves tau, but hated the point and click style of old?
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I miss my elegant jump suit jump crisis. I loved getting right in close and dancing away. I could also play troop heavy Tau well. Any tau, but overall I preferred the jsj days. Now it's just gunline and in your face gunline.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/26 06:56:13


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Gamgee wrote:
 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Phew Tau are stinky in this edition...GW did a total gut job to this army, and it really shows. But hey, at least we can spam 100 drones or 100 kroot hounds!

You said it. Adding up all the battle reports for this week compared to last week (I am adding up every batrep of Tau I can get my hands on) the tau have risen from an 86% loss rate to a 87% loss rate. I wonder if the same thing will happen again. The things we have that are "good" really can't compare to anything that's even so-so in another codex let alone their best stuff. Tau need a complete rebalance almost across the board.

The armies we seem to be having the most trouble with are Dark Eldar, Tyranids, and Necrons. Orks are seen as kind of weak in 8th too and everyone gives them outpouring of support. Tau are absolutely TERRIBLE in 8th and everyone tells us this is what we deserve. No justice and there never will be.

Tau have one of the worst codices in GW history now.

Spoiler:


Why are those a problem? Only faced Tyranids out of those 3 and I am currently running 100% win against Tyranids. Unlike last edition my suits can survived a round of close combat against a monster creature and unlike last edition I can kill monster creatures in 1 turn just from a single crisis suit or single commander. Fusions and Overcharged CIDS are deadly towards Nids and the drones absorb the hits I take. CIDS and Burst take out the mob squads. The Fly rule is way more powerful then the old JSJ rule. A Flying MC charged my commander the Nid player not realising he couldn't kill or even wound my commander in 1 round of combat due to drones and not realising I could Fly back and kill his MC in 1 round just from my commander. Even a basic suit with fusion can do the same thing.

I lost my first game terribly with Tau but once I got the hang of the new advantages Tau seemed powerful. With a change in play style Tau seem good now. Although I do agree some units over priced, I no longer use railguns.

EDIT: Don't forget Tau Plasma is now dirt cheap any deadly. A triple Plasma suit with a marker drone to absorb wounds and make 1s a reroll works great.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/06/26 07:16:40


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

I'm glad you're making it work. It's kind of more of a fun challenge than lining up riptides was, and that's cool. Long live fish of fury 2.0.

That does not excuse the dreadful design of our stuff - like railguns being effectively the same as lascannons but we can only afford one for every three that imperials get. Our big suits are just ridiculous now.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I just want one RIptide to be viable but not a whole swarm. I love my RIptide model a lot and barely got to use it in 7th. My Y'vahrah will probably get more use than ever yay.
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Suks wrote:
Wow, I am surprised to see all the hate. I have to admit that I was a little down and skeptical before 8th dropped, but after my 3rd game, things are looking up in a BIG way. I've taken some strong wins away already. Do I play my Tau the same way that I did in 7th? NO! Is that a bad thing? HECK NO!

The list that I have been taking consists of 8 breacher squads in 4 devilfish, darkstrider, 3 fusion commanders with gun drones, and 3 crisis suits with gun drones. (Notice, no marker light support? I don't need it. It is too much baggage!)

This is a very simple list that plays EXTREMELY aggressively. It is fun to play, challenging and engaging to play, and it is very strong. The trick comes in positioning your devilfish to support your alpha striking commanders and crisis suits. The breachers are crazy deadly, and the fish are durable enough to get them where they need to be. Bonus points, the devilfish can drop off more drones for the commanders to soak up, AND they can charge enemy units to keep them from charging and (sometimes) shooting.

This list, more than any other wins in the movement phase. You HAVE to be thinking a turn ahead for your breacher placement.

I have not tried Vespids yet, but I would love to try them to either augment alpha strike with fusion and crisis, or replace crisis all together, depending.

GW has given us reason to have faith that they will adjust points and strength as needed. Put your riptides and broadsides up on the shelf, and wait for them to come back. Until then, dust off some devilfish, and have some fun playing a completely reworked army in an engaging and fun style. I'm kissing them for these changes, not cursing them. I can't be the only one that loves tau, but hated the point and click style of old?


Heck yea its a bad thing!

The few things that actually work with "8th tau", are simply not tau at all.
That's not how tau are supposed to be! you are playing like SoB or something.

spamming commanders as anti-tank solutions, zero marker support, pure aggressive infantry advance-does any of this sounds like tau to you? because it doesn't to me.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




Cincinnati

 BoomWolf wrote:

Heck yea its a bad thing!

The few things that actually work with "8th tau", are simply not tau at all.
That's not how tau are supposed to be! you are playing like SoB or something.

spamming commanders as anti-tank solutions, zero marker support, pure aggressive infantry advance-does any of this sounds like tau to you? because it doesn't to me.


I understand what you are saying. I hear people saying that nothing works in Tau right now, and I'm here to tell you that there is stuff that works, it is just different. I am a bit over excited because this is the playstyle that I wanted to make work all of 7th and couldn't. I never liked the static gunline.

However, to say that Tau can't be played aggressively because it is un-Tau-like is crazy. Fusion is the best Tau option right now, so if you're not taking them, then you are crazy. I hardly call 3 commanders spam. In competitive play, I'm sure that many top tau players will be taking 5+ commanders at a minimum. They are simply too points efficient not to take them.

I get it that my list isn't going to be the list that most Tau players choose, but at the same time, I'm not sure that complaining that nothing works in the Tau index, then writing my thoughts off as invalid since they are not traditional tau play style is the answer either (even though traditionally Fish of Fury has been a totally valid Tau build).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/26 13:08:50


 
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot






Canada

Honestly, I want to play with my expensive suits, and so does every other Tau player, and I want to still have a viable, effective army while doing so. The people advocating running 100 kroot hounds just make me cringe, because this apparently is the most effective build for the Tau in an army that used to be highly flexible. Anyone saying that this army wasn't gutted with a rusty knife needs some medication.

6000 pts
2000 pts
2500 pts
3000 pts

"We're on an express elevator to hell - goin' down!"

"Depends on the service being refused. It should be fine to refuse to make a porn star a dildo shaped cake that they wanted to use in a wedding themed porn..." 
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





Florida

 BoomWolf wrote:
Need I remind you that reece and co. in frontline where a major player in the beta testing?



They weren't the only ones. They're only the most "internet famous". The TO's for Adepticon and the Nova Open had the same amount of playtesting and input.

I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




 D6Damager wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Need I remind you that reece and co. in frontline where a major player in the beta testing?



They weren't the only ones. They're only the most "internet famous". The TO's for Adepticon and the Nova Open had the same amount of playtesting and input.


I guessing the reason they've been left off the hook as mustache twirling villains is because he doesn't know their names.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suks wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:

Heck yea its a bad thing!

The few things that actually work with "8th tau", are simply not tau at all.
That's not how tau are supposed to be! you are playing like SoB or something.

spamming commanders as anti-tank solutions, zero marker support, pure aggressive infantry advance-does any of this sounds like tau to you? because it doesn't to me.


I understand what you are saying. I hear people saying that nothing works in Tau right now, and I'm here to tell you that there is stuff that works, it is just different. I am a bit over excited because this is the playstyle that I wanted to make work all of 7th and couldn't. I never liked the static gunline.

However, to say that Tau can't be played aggressively because it is un-Tau-like is crazy. Fusion is the best Tau option right now, so if you're not taking them, then you are crazy. I hardly call 3 commanders spam. In competitive play, I'm sure that many top tau players will be taking 5+ commanders at a minimum. They are simply too points efficient not to take them.

I get it that my list isn't going to be the list that most Tau players choose, but at the same time, I'm not sure that complaining that nothing works in the Tau index, then writing my thoughts off as invalid since they are not traditional tau play style is the answer either (even though traditionally Fish of Fury has been a totally valid Tau build).


I'm also excited this aggressive style works now. I quit Tau awhile ago because it was no fun for me or my opponent to play them the regular JSJ/gunline way. I always viewed it as sitting on someone's chest and hitting them with their own arm. Fun for the bully and no one else.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/26 14:45:44


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Honestly, I want to play with my expensive suits, and so does every other Tau player, and I want to still have a viable, effective army while doing so. The people advocating running 100 kroot hounds just make me cringe, because this apparently is the most effective build for the Tau in an army that used to be highly flexible. Anyone saying that this army wasn't gutted with a rusty knife needs some medication.

Just becuase part of the Army was gutted it doesnt mean all of it was. Suits based around plasma or Fusion are way more powerfull then before and plasma is cheap. Its only 33pts to take 3 plasma weapons. 18 Plasma shots from 3 suits can cut though most things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/26 15:23:47


 
   
Made in us
Hellion Hitting and Running






So one of my favorite units right now is crisis suits with plasma rifles and gun drones. They can drop down and really wipe out a ton of infantry models. s6 ap-3 is just good at mowing down infantry. Due to manta strike you can put them where you want in that 12" double tap range, pumping out a ton of damage turn 1 but on turn 2 you are usually out of double tap range and their effectiveness drops down.

In comparison our riptide can pump out 12 s6 ap-3 shots a turn, the big difference is that these shots are 36" compared to the plasma rifle's 12/24". In my games the riptide has been great at shooting down marines popping out of their transport after my commanders blew a whole in the tank. While crisis suits do more damage the turn they drop down, the riptide is sustained fire that will do more over two or three turns.

I think that they may be a little much for low point games but I do feel that they a place in our army. Of our big suits I think ghostneels is the best (though commanders do their job better) but I think riptides are second, better than broadsides (who I think suffer from too few support slots) and stormsurges which I feel need markerlight support I don't feel like taking.
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin






Pottsey wrote:
 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Honestly, I want to play with my expensive suits, and so does every other Tau player, and I want to still have a viable, effective army while doing so. The people advocating running 100 kroot hounds just make me cringe, because this apparently is the most effective build for the Tau in an army that used to be highly flexible. Anyone saying that this army wasn't gutted with a rusty knife needs some medication.

Just becuase part of the Army was gutted it doesnt mean all of it was. Suits based around plasma or Fusion are way more powerfull then before and plasma is cheap. Its only 33pts to take 3 plasma weapons. 18 Plasma shots from 3 suits can cut though most things.


I see a theme happening with Tau and the other armies I play (Necrons & IG). It looks to me like GW has made it such that the best builds will require you to play models that collected dust in 7th. For Necrons that means I need 2x to 4x the number of warriors I currently own and probably another doomsday ark (the only one I do own saw the tabletop once since 5th). And over in IG I think you're going to see heavy artillery lists. A buddy of mine and I have very similar lists - I just don't own all of the tanks and bassilisks required to run it yet (15 bassies, russ's, manticores and wyverns). So I feel GW figured out a way to get us to buy stuff that we either don't have at all or don't have enough of to be competitive - and screw play style...
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





Philadelphia

Love everything you said Suks! Can't wait to run Fish of Fury augmented by Flamer Crisis and Y'Vahras. Long live aggressive Tau!

Rule #1 is Look Cool.  
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




Cincinnati

 The Shrike wrote:
Love everything you said Suks! Can't wait to run Fish of Fury augmented by Flamer Crisis and Y'Vahras. Long live aggressive Tau!
Can't wait to read some of your battle reports with Fish of Fury! Thanks for being an inspiration to the Tau community. I still have PMs in my dakka inbox from back in 5th or 6th edition filled with advice for me from you when I was starting my Tau force! It makes me happy to hear some other positive voices!
   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Fixture of Dakka






Chicago

 BoomWolf wrote:
Need I remind you that reece and co. in frontline where a major player in the beta testing??


And yet here we have an edition where flamers are a legitimate weapon choice for attacking airplanes moving at supersonic speeds, and you shoot at full effectiveness through your own friends at a target you can only see 5% of.

Makes me wonder, did Reece and co. drink GWs cool-aid, were they overruled, or did they just do a poor job too.


   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Pottsey wrote:
 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Honestly, I want to play with my expensive suits, and so does every other Tau player, and I want to still have a viable, effective army while doing so. The people advocating running 100 kroot hounds just make me cringe, because this apparently is the most effective build for the Tau in an army that used to be highly flexible. Anyone saying that this army wasn't gutted with a rusty knife needs some medication.

Just becuase part of the Army was gutted it doesnt mean all of it was. Suits based around plasma or Fusion are way more powerfull then before and plasma is cheap. Its only 33pts to take 3 plasma weapons. 18 Plasma shots from 3 suits can cut though most things.


Mathematically incorrect.

Fusion was FAR better in 7th, when you could actually preform a "deep" strike, rather than a "close" strike. 3 crisis suits with 3 fusions each clock at 315 points, and will merely get about 60% to take out a lousy rhino. that is NOT a viable answer to armor.
Sure, its better against MCs than it used to be, but tanks? don't make me laugh. in th two double-fusion suits were an actual threat to most tanks in the game, now 3 triple-fusion are not, and both suit and gun increased by cost massively.

As for plasma, math shows its not a good weapon, and being cheap doesn't help when the platform is overpriced. it's only mediocre in rapid range, but horrible outside of it and it just falls flat compared to the CiB.
In fact, anything a plasma suit does, a gun drone does better. every single target in the game.


can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 BoomWolf wrote:
Pottsey wrote:
 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Honestly, I want to play with my expensive suits, and so does every other Tau player, and I want to still have a viable, effective army while doing so. The people advocating running 100 kroot hounds just make me cringe, because this apparently is the most effective build for the Tau in an army that used to be highly flexible. Anyone saying that this army wasn't gutted with a rusty knife needs some medication.

Just becuase part of the Army was gutted it doesnt mean all of it was. Suits based around plasma or Fusion are way more powerfull then before and plasma is cheap. Its only 33pts to take 3 plasma weapons. 18 Plasma shots from 3 suits can cut though most things.


Mathematically incorrect.

Fusion was FAR better in 7th, when you could actually preform a "deep" strike, rather than a "close" strike. 3 crisis suits with 3 fusions each clock at 315 points, and will merely get about 60% to take out a lousy rhino. that is NOT a viable answer to armor.
Sure, its better against MCs than it used to be, but tanks? don't make me laugh. in th two double-fusion suits were an actual threat to most tanks in the game, now 3 triple-fusion are not, and both suit and gun increased by cost massively.

As for plasma, math shows its not a good weapon, and being cheap doesn't help when the platform is overpriced. it's only mediocre in rapid range, but horrible outside of it and it just falls flat compared to the CiB.
In fact, anything a plasma suit does, a gun drone does better. every single target in the game.


Homing beacon lets you deep strike within half range which means 2 fusion wounds on average will do 10 damage and blow up the rhino. My Stealth team only has 2 Fusions and when backed up with a rerolling 1’s they had no problem blowing up tanks. A Crisis team with way more Fusions should be even more effective.

How do you work out the math that 18 shots from drones at BS5, S5 beats 6 plasma shots at BS 4, S6 at -3 AP. Worse chance to hit, worse chance to wound and the target gets a 3+ armor save against the drones. While plasma has a better chance to hit, better chance to wound and often no armor save. Do you have a spreadsheet or a program to compare? I would have thought the extra survivability, with extra damage made the suits better than the drones at long and short range. In the games I have played so far the suits have outperformed the drones by a large amount.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/06/26 18:04:28


 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





Pottsey wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Pottsey wrote:
 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Honestly, I want to play with my expensive suits, and so does every other Tau player, and I want to still have a viable, effective army while doing so. The people advocating running 100 kroot hounds just make me cringe, because this apparently is the most effective build for the Tau in an army that used to be highly flexible. Anyone saying that this army wasn't gutted with a rusty knife needs some medication.

Just becuase part of the Army was gutted it doesnt mean all of it was. Suits based around plasma or Fusion are way more powerfull then before and plasma is cheap. Its only 33pts to take 3 plasma weapons. 18 Plasma shots from 3 suits can cut though most things.


Mathematically incorrect.

Fusion was FAR better in 7th, when you could actually preform a "deep" strike, rather than a "close" strike. 3 crisis suits with 3 fusions each clock at 315 points, and will merely get about 60% to take out a lousy rhino. that is NOT a viable answer to armor.
Sure, its better against MCs than it used to be, but tanks? don't make me laugh. in th two double-fusion suits were an actual threat to most tanks in the game, now 3 triple-fusion are not, and both suit and gun increased by cost massively.

As for plasma, math shows its not a good weapon, and being cheap doesn't help when the platform is overpriced. it's only mediocre in rapid range, but horrible outside of it and it just falls flat compared to the CiB.
In fact, anything a plasma suit does, a gun drone does better. every single target in the game.


Homing beacon lets you deep strike within half range which means 2 fusion wounds on average will do 10 damage and blow up the rhino. My Stealth team only has 2 Fusions and when backed up with a rerolling 1’s they had no problem blowing up tanks. A Crisis team with way more Fusions should be even more effective.

How do you work out the math that 18 shots from drones at BS5, S5 beats 6 plasma shots at BS 4, S6 at -3 AP. Worse chance to hit, worse chance to wound and the target gets a 3+ armor save against the drones. While plasma has a better chance to hit, better chance to wound and often no armor save. Do you have a spreadsheet or a program to compare? I would have thought the extra survivability, with extra damage made the suits better than the drones at long and short range. In the games I have played so far the suits have outperformed the drones by a large amount.


What Gun Drone statline are you invoking that provides exactly 18 shots as a comparison to a triple Plasma Crisis Suit?

Wait... 11 points each, plus the Crisis Suit base, = roughly 75 points per Plasma suit.

Divide 75 points by the 8 points per gun drone, and you have just over 9 drones...

Oh god, you don't think Gun Drones only have a single Pulse Carbine, do you?

They have two. TWO carbines, or roughly double the firepower you seem to think they have.

No wonder the Drones have been underperforming in your games - you're only using half their shooting potential!

And even if that weren't the whole case, the question remains whether the drones perform proportionally better for their points - if you're using a lot of crisis suits, you're almost by definition spending a lot of points. I happen to be of the opinion that Tau armies should have ubiquitous drones, but its dangerous to assume that from other people's lists... But the main point is that a LOT of points of inefficient firepower can still outperform, on an actual-damage-dealt level, smaller amounts of points of efficient firepower. 16 Drones are going to be put out more efficient firepower compared to almost anything else (I'm not Boomwolf, who can defend his "in all cases" situation himself, since I haven't exhaustively checked the mathhammer on it), but three triple plasma suits are almost twice the point costs, so even if they slightly outperformed those 16 drones (say, by killing their average 5 MEQs versus the Drones' average of ~4.7, and yes, that's the math when both parties are unboosted), they're not nearly as EFFICIENT at killing MEQs.

And even beyond that, Drones have access to more potential boosts to their firepower - even if their floor is lower (and I don't believe that to be the case), the ceiling is significantly higher for the Drones (can get an extra +1 to hit from DCs, can get an extra 1 or 2 shots per Drone if near a Fireblade) and the things useful for boosting only drones are relatively cheap (DC) or are decent in their own right and/or in conjunction with other parts of our list (Fireblade).

The Targeting Priority may be an issue with them, which means you need to bring the tools to deal with stuff that's less-efficient-than-they-could-be was targets for massed S5/0/1 fire - things like Fusion, CIB, Rails, etc. to remove high toughness good save blocker models - tools you'd want to bring regardless.

TL;DR: Look again at the Drone rules, and reconsider their efficiency in light of their raw capabilities (good) and overall potential (insanely awesome).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/26 19:17:06


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Pottsey wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Pottsey wrote:
 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Honestly, I want to play with my expensive suits, and so does every other Tau player, and I want to still have a viable, effective army while doing so. The people advocating running 100 kroot hounds just make me cringe, because this apparently is the most effective build for the Tau in an army that used to be highly flexible. Anyone saying that this army wasn't gutted with a rusty knife needs some medication.

Just becuase part of the Army was gutted it doesnt mean all of it was. Suits based around plasma or Fusion are way more powerfull then before and plasma is cheap. Its only 33pts to take 3 plasma weapons. 18 Plasma shots from 3 suits can cut though most things.


Mathematically incorrect.

Fusion was FAR better in 7th, when you could actually preform a "deep" strike, rather than a "close" strike. 3 crisis suits with 3 fusions each clock at 315 points, and will merely get about 60% to take out a lousy rhino. that is NOT a viable answer to armor.
Sure, its better against MCs than it used to be, but tanks? don't make me laugh. in th two double-fusion suits were an actual threat to most tanks in the game, now 3 triple-fusion are not, and both suit and gun increased by cost massively.

As for plasma, math shows its not a good weapon, and being cheap doesn't help when the platform is overpriced. it's only mediocre in rapid range, but horrible outside of it and it just falls flat compared to the CiB.
In fact, anything a plasma suit does, a gun drone does better. every single target in the game.


Homing beacon lets you deep strike within half range which means 2 fusion wounds on average will do 10 damage and blow up the rhino. My Stealth team only has 2 Fusions and when backed up with a rerolling 1’s they had no problem blowing up tanks. A Crisis team with way more Fusions should be even more effective.

How do you work out the math that 18 shots from drones at BS5, S5 beats 6 plasma shots at BS 4, S6 at -3 AP. Worse chance to hit, worse chance to wound and the target gets a 3+ armor save against the drones. While plasma has a better chance to hit, better chance to wound and often no armor save. Do you have a spreadsheet or a program to compare? I would have thought the extra survivability, with extra damage made the suits better than the drones at long and short range. In the games I have played so far the suits have outperformed the drones by a large amount.


What Gun Drone statline are you invoking that provides exactly 18 shots as a comparison to a triple Plasma Crisis Suit?

Wait... 11 points each, plus the Crisis Suit base, = roughly 75 points per Plasma suit.

Divide 75 points by the 8 points per gun drone, and you have just over 9 drones...

Oh god, you don't think Gun Drones only have a single Pulse Carbine, do you?

They have two. TWO carbines, or roughly double the firepower you seem to think they have.

No wonder the Drones have been underperforming in your games - you're only using half their shooting potential!

And even if that weren't the whole case, the question remains whether the drones perform proportionally better for their points - if you're using a lot of crisis suits, you're almost by definition spending a lot of points. I happen to be of the opinion that Tau armies should have ubiquitous drones, but its dangerous to assume that from other people's lists... But the main point is that a LOT of points of inefficient firepower can still outperform, on an actual-damage-dealt level, smaller amounts of points of efficient firepower. 16 Drones are going to be put out more efficient firepower compared to almost anything else (I'm not Boomwolf, who can defend his "in all cases" situation himself, since I haven't exhaustively checked the mathhammer on it), but three triple plasma suits are almost twice the point costs, so even if they slightly outperformed those 16 drones (say, by killing their average 5 MEQs versus the Drones' average of ~4.7, and yes, that's the math when both parties are unboosted), they're not nearly as EFFICIENT at killing MEQs.

And even beyond that, Drones have access to more potential boosts to their firepower - even if their floor is lower (and I don't believe that to be the case), the ceiling is significantly higher for the Drones (can get an extra +1 to hit from DCs, can get an extra 1 or 2 shots per Drone if near a Fireblade) and the things useful for boosting only drones are relatively cheap (DC) or are decent in their own right and/or in conjunction with other parts of our list (Fireblade).

The Targeting Priority may be an issue with them, which means you need to bring the tools to deal with stuff that's less-efficient-than-they-could-be was targets for massed S5/0/1 fire - things like Fusion, CIB, Rails, etc. to remove high toughness good save blocker models - tools you'd want to bring regardless.

TL;DR: Look again at the Drone rules, and reconsider their efficiency in light of their raw capabilities (good) and overall potential (insanely awesome).


What on earth makes you think that I am using gun drones as single pulse carbines? For 75pts its 1 suit or 9 drones so 18 gun shots V up to 6 plasma shots. For 18 drones you can afford 2 suits and 2 suits will outperform those drones by a lot against MEQs.

How are you getting an average of 4.7 wounds against MEGS from 9 drones it’s more like way under 2 isn’t it? Not got a spreadsheet on hand but it’s something 1 suit kill around x3 more MEGS than the those drone. Unless I just made a mistake the suits are x3 more efficient if not better.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/26 19:51:13


 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Actually I do have a spreadsheet of just how many wounds are expected from quite a few units, their various setups, and their correlating point efficiency against a wide veraity of targets, at each level of ML benefits.

So i can outright say-a team of stealth suits with 2 fusions, and 4 burst cannons should not really be able to take down a rhino, as that takes 9 fusion blasters to accomplish.

With rerolls of 1 AND being in half range, 2 fusions and 4 bursts should do about 2.5 wounds on average to a rhino.


As for drones vs plasma, lets assume the target is a space marine.
I know i need to spend 27 points into drones for each 1 average wound.
Crisis with triple plasma require 90, 45 is half range,
Commander with quad plasma does it in 64.8, or 32.4 if in half range.

When you compare drone VS plasma, even against T5 in 2+ save, who is pcractically the worst scenario possible for the drone comparison here, the drone outpreform. the plasma is THAT bad.


So yea, the commander with plasma can't keep up with the gun drones.
The crisis suit is outright garbage, it NEVER manages to keep up with the commander unless you compare pure flamer outfit, in fact the crisis suit rarely bring out viable results in any setup against any target, only with the fusion against heavy targets or with flamers against light targets they bring anything remotely useful.
And the fusion role is simply outdone by the commander, even with full 5 markers that the commander does not benefit from.


As for homing beacon letting you DS within 9 inches, that's nice and dandy, but requires a SECOND unit to be a delivery method, while not being cheap, and not actually being all that reliable.
And I'm talking rhino here, not land raider or IK. a simple rhino that used to die to 2-3 fusions, now take 9.
And each of said fusions costs more, and are harder to bring into the melta range.

Not that the melta range is all that better actually, unlike before the difference between half and full range isn't great.


Pottsey wrote:


What on earth makes you think that I am using gun drones as single pulse carbines? For 75pts its 1 suit or 9 drones so 18 gun shots V up to 6 plasma shots. For 18 drones you can afford 2 suits and 2 suits will outperform those drones by a lot against MEQs.

How are you getting an average of 4.7 wounds against MEGS from 9 drones it’s more like way under 2 isn’t it? Not got a spreadsheet on hand but it’s something 1 suit kill around x3 more MEGS than the those drone. Unless I just made a mistake the suits are x3 more efficient if not better.


You ARE using single carbine drones x_x
9 drones=36 shots. not 18.
Drones throw buckets of dice at the enemy.
They win by sheer numbers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/26 20:01:00


can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




Cincinnati

Crisis can deepstrike, do not have to target the nearest enemy unit, have toughness 5, 3w, and can bring drones with them for more ablative wounds for commanders.

These things also matter. I'm not disputing that gun drones are stupid points efficient right now, and that certainly gives them an edge over some other stuff, but it's not enough of a reason to take an army comprised of ONLY them. GW has stated that they will adjust points on a somewhat regular schedule (annually maybe?), so I would look for gun drones to come up in cost at that point.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Okay, what are you fellas running on your Commanders? I'm really liking quad fusion, but I'm willing to give triple CIB and ATS a whirl. As I recall from the spreadsheets posted in GD, that was the second most effective set-up overall after fusions. My army doesn't have a whole lot of high strength, high RoF options, so I figured I'd give it a whirl. The weapons other than the CIB and fusion just don't seem worthwhile, given that you can drop down on your chosen target at will. Missile pods are excruciatingly expensive, and as above their range isn't as big of a boon as it once was.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 BoomWolf wrote:
“So i can outright say-a team of stealth suits with 2 fusions, and 4 burst cannons should not really be able to take down a rhino, as that takes 9 fusion blasters to accomplish.

With rerolls of 1 AND being in half range, 2 fusions and 4 bursts should do about 2.5 wounds on average to a rhino.”

That seems wrong although I dont have a spreadsheet for 8th yet. On average I would expact 1 fusion wounding per volley and that fusion alone would do around 4 to 5 damage per wound at half range. Then the burst cannons on top. If both fusions hit on the same turn with burst cannons you expact to do over 10 damage that volly and bow the rino up. If I am wrong please explain where so I can learn.

As for drones I apologize big time. I see what you mean which means all my other numbers are way off. It also means when I was last playing against nids with half my army as drones and the rest as fusion I won without using half my drone shots! So I am still confused at why people are saying nids are one of the hardest to play against as Tau.

As long as you keep away from the bad units like the railguns and Riptide Tau seem pretty good this edition. Although I do agree half the Tau codex is bad.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/26 22:15:38


 
   
Made in us
Hellion Hitting and Running






So I think it is really easy to just look at damage output vs pt cost and consider something the best unit. But you need to take into consideration survivability and versatility. Drones dish out a ton of damage but they also die much easier than crisis suits. In addition your swarms of drones flee battle after a few die (why do drons have poor leadership when they are bots?). If you are playing tactical objectives, deep striking your crisis suits backed up with some drones is going to be a lot better than trying to get your drones over there an hold it down with a pile of drones. Whats more I am not sure you realize what a pain shooting the closest target is. If a unit of marines jumps out of their rhino and the rhino goes in front of them all of a sudden you are having to shoot down a rhino and not the marines which would be a better target for the drones. If that rhino popped smoke you will be having an even worst time. When doing your damage calculations do you consider that crisis suits are almost always going to be able to shoot at the target (where drones will often be out of range or have to shoot at something else) Do you consider how many drones you will have if your opponent goes first or if they steal the initiative? Drones and crisis suits play two very different roles in the army.

   
Made in ca
Infiltrating Broodlord





Oshawa Ontario

Minor rules question. I don't play Tau but faced them for the first time this weekend and was doing some reading today on them. Found some....oddities.

A commander can have 4 guns....seems fair, but whatever. I figured fusion blaster, plasma rifle, missile pod, burst cannon...you know the standard Crisis loadouts.

What is stopping me (aside from common sense and a sense of fair-play) from paying 244 points and putting 4 cluster rocket systems on him? 16D6 S5 shots? At BS 2+?

Or 4 railguns? 228 points for 4 railgun shots on a "character" platform so he can lurk behind troops?

Am I missing something here? Tell me I'm wrong, please.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/26 23:19:36


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