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Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






Asura Varuna wrote:

If you've not built them yet, there's no excuse not to magnetise. Don't tie yourself into one loadout that could be made completely trash in the upcoming codex. Think of all those poor people who had heaps of deathrain suits, or worse still, those with really old suit models from before you could double down on a single weapon type. My models are still scarred from pulling apart old Fireknife configurations.


I'm considering it, though I remember what a pain in the butt magnetizing Tyranids MCs was, and lining up magnets for perfect fitting on Tau suits is basically necessary. Right now I'm concentrating more on expanding infantry and using my old Crisis Suits, or at least my old Twin Fusion + Flamer suits. Given how generally slow I work, the issue may resolve itself before I get them up and going, if the rumor that Tau codex will be 3rd in line is correct.

As to Mandragola's point about CIB's not being in Crisis Suit teams, that's a mistake on my part. Oops. Remembering the old CIB, converting a Burst Cannon seems to be the best option. The old CIB was a 4 barrel affair, after all.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Asura Varuna wrote:


I think statistically CIB are better against all targets except marines at <12" range.


And better against everything at 19-24" range.
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

 Hollow wrote:
Still... using ML to benefit other ML strikes me as dodgy.


I totally understand and it didn't even come to my mind until someone else mentioned it. But MLs having a weapon profile and requiring to shoot means there's no reason for it to not be possible.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Hollow wrote:
Although there is nothing written that would prohibit ML benefiting from other ML and it is seemingly possible to roll each individual ML in a unit, in order for the subsequent ML to benefit from previously successful ML. This is not something I would personally do. It stinks of poor sportsmanship and looking to exploit the rules.

You feel that way because it was against the rules in previous editions. Only Networked Markerlight allowed for it to benefit the unit shooting.

Well, they gutted the rules and removed any restrictions.

So its 100% legal to shoot your MLs 1 by 1, and it's 100% legal to start benefiting from reroll 1s as soon as a single dude in the squad manages a hit.


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

You can still get a squad of 5 pathfinders for less than the price of darkstrider or a fireblade. It's a bit odd to use either of them as a true source of ML hits.

Markerlights definitely do benefit subsequent markerlight attempts. I don't think it feels especially wrong that they should.
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

Mandragola wrote:
You can still get a squad of 5 pathfinders for less than the price of darkstrider or a fireblade. It's a bit odd to use either of them as a true source of ML hits.

Markerlights definitely do benefit subsequent markerlight attempts. I don't think it feels especially wrong that they should.



Obviously if you get either of them it's for their abilities. But their shooting being nothing special, you might as well be firing a ML at 2+ to set up the next ML shots if you're looking for more ML buffs.
   
Made in br
Fireknife Shas'el




Lisbon, Portugal

davethepak wrote:

This is why they hate tau - because players did this with riptide wing. This type of playstyle is why people are happy our markers got nerfed and the riptide is useless. I did not play riptide wing or use grav on my marines in the last edition.

I barely earned a tough a win last night in a game (8 vp to 6) in a brutal close game with no cheesy units on either side. It was exceptionally satisfying.
If I want an easy win, If I want to "win" like that, I will arm wrestle my 3yr old.

Don't be that guy, don't ruin the game. Also, the fact that forgeworld can't write rules worth a @#&^%# is not an excuse.



Eeh, but a Y'vahra used to be 260-ish. It now costs more than 400p. Less spammable.
Also, as it is T7, any S4+ will hurt it at least at 5+. Before, you needed S5 to do the same. Which means basic troops will be able to kill it. Oh, and AP reduces its resistance (where before, without an AP2 weapon, the opponent shouldn't even bother firing something at it).
Finally, of course noone in his right mind will bring 3-4 Y'vahras in casual game, or he won't get any gaming. Same with other stuff in other armies.

However, in tourneys...

AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion & X-Wing: CIS / WWX: Union

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 Shadenuat wrote:
Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army.
 
   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Eastern Fringe

 Talamare wrote:
 Hollow wrote:
Although there is nothing written that would prohibit ML benefiting from other ML and it is seemingly possible to roll each individual ML in a unit, in order for the subsequent ML to benefit from previously successful ML. This is not something I would personally do. It stinks of poor sportsmanship and looking to exploit the rules.

You feel that way because it was against the rules in previous editions. Only Networked Markerlight allowed for it to benefit the unit shooting.

Well, they gutted the rules and removed any restrictions.

So its 100% legal to shoot your MLs 1 by 1, and it's 100% legal to start benefiting from reroll 1s as soon as a single dude in the squad manages a hit.


Not really. It just feels as though I'd be exploiting a loophole, which I'm not interested in doing. You select the unit you want to shoot with, you nominate your target (or targets if you are splitting fire) then you roll the dice for equal profiles together. Unless GW comes out and specifically says they intended for ML to benefit from other ML, then I'm not going to play it that way, because I'm not TFG.

The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Hollow wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
 Hollow wrote:
Although there is nothing written that would prohibit ML benefiting from other ML and it is seemingly possible to roll each individual ML in a unit, in order for the subsequent ML to benefit from previously successful ML. This is not something I would personally do. It stinks of poor sportsmanship and looking to exploit the rules.

You feel that way because it was against the rules in previous editions. Only Networked Markerlight allowed for it to benefit the unit shooting.

Well, they gutted the rules and removed any restrictions.

So its 100% legal to shoot your MLs 1 by 1, and it's 100% legal to start benefiting from reroll 1s as soon as a single dude in the squad manages a hit.


Not really. It just feels as though I'd be exploiting a loophole, which I'm not interested in doing. You select the unit you want to shoot with, you nominate your target (or targets if you are splitting fire) then you roll the dice for equal profiles together. Unless GW comes out and specifically says they intended for ML to benefit from other ML, then I'm not going to play it that way, because I'm not TFG.

I'm not TFG either
Everyone who does this is not a TFG or WAAC
Implying that we are TFG or WAAC because we are following the rules correctly is insulting.
There is no exploit, and rolling dice of equal profiles together is an optional fast dice rule. Not a mandatory rule.


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

 Talamare wrote:
 Hollow wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
 Hollow wrote:
Although there is nothing written that would prohibit ML benefiting from other ML and it is seemingly possible to roll each individual ML in a unit, in order for the subsequent ML to benefit from previously successful ML. This is not something I would personally do. It stinks of poor sportsmanship and looking to exploit the rules.

You feel that way because it was against the rules in previous editions. Only Networked Markerlight allowed for it to benefit the unit shooting.

Well, they gutted the rules and removed any restrictions.

So its 100% legal to shoot your MLs 1 by 1, and it's 100% legal to start benefiting from reroll 1s as soon as a single dude in the squad manages a hit.


Not really. It just feels as though I'd be exploiting a loophole, which I'm not interested in doing. You select the unit you want to shoot with, you nominate your target (or targets if you are splitting fire) then you roll the dice for equal profiles together. Unless GW comes out and specifically says they intended for ML to benefit from other ML, then I'm not going to play it that way, because I'm not TFG.

I'm not TFG either
Everyone who does this is not a TFG or WAAC
Implying that we are TFG or WAAC because we are following the rules correctly is insulting.
There is no exploit, and rolling dice of equal profiles together is an optional fast dice rule. Not a mandatory rule.
The only restriction I can see is assuming all shooting at the same unit happens at the same time, with regards to the universal split-fire ability.

So whilst you can split fire with bolters to X, plasmagun to Y and missile launcher to Z; you have to fire all bolters at X at once, before moving to a new target with a new group of weapons.

I don't have a rulebook to hand at the moment so I can't backup (or disprove) this line of reasoning with the rules...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Fireknife Shas'el





Leicester

Yeah, you can't use marker lights to benefit marker lights (or any other shooting) within a squad, as you have to declare all firing at the start.

I see no reason why you can't use the benefit from a previous squad though; indeed that was allowed under the previous rules too.

DS:80+S+GM+B+I+Pw40k08D+A++WD355R+T(M)DM+
 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
Made in fi
Water-Caste Negotiator





 Jadenim wrote:
Yeah, you can't use marker lights to benefit marker lights (or any other shooting) within a squad, as you have to declare all firing at the start.

I see no reason why you can't use the benefit from a previous squad though; indeed that was allowed under the previous rules too.


I don't see how declaring all targets matters when you still shoot all the weapons one by one. It's allowed. Deal with it.

-Heresy grows from idleness- 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

 Fueli wrote:
I don't see how declaring all targets matters when you still shoot all the weapons one by one. It's allowed. Deal with it.
Hmm.. might not be the best way to raise a good idea, as your point of view has a fair point.

I guess the idea boils down to the markerlights aren't applied to the target until the unit finishes shooting. Does the markerlight buff table rules refer to unit or models, about who gets the bonus. Still, whichever way I try to argue with myself, it's tricky!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

Well, the fact is if you split fire with a Pathinder unit, and fail to kill a target with the first part of the split, you can't choose the other part to come back and shoot at the first target to try and finish it. So you'd think their fire capability can't be affected anymore.

The pathfinder thing is a positive benefit, so let's think with a negative one. What if you fire all of your Ghostkeel weapons (with a cyclic ion raker) to a target and decide to roll one by one, as it is allowed. You use the overcharged profile and the first roll you make is a 1. The Keel is already damaged and that 1 mortal wound brings it to the first damage threshold, reducing its BS to 5+. Would roll the other shots on a 5+? Would you roll the Burst canons on a 5+?

It is a tricky subject, and I don't really know the answer myself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/05 11:36:47


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

 Haechi wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
You can still get a squad of 5 pathfinders for less than the price of darkstrider or a fireblade. It's a bit odd to use either of them as a true source of ML hits.

Markerlights definitely do benefit subsequent markerlight attempts. I don't think it feels especially wrong that they should.



Obviously if you get either of them it's for their abilities. But their shooting being nothing special, you might as well be firing a ML at 2+ to set up the next ML shots if you're looking for more ML buffs.

Thats a fair point actually. And given that the biggest advantage MLS give is probably that rerolls of 1s, maybe you don't need anything else.
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

 Haechi wrote:
Well, the fact is if you split fire with a Pathinder unit, and fail to kill a target with the first part of the split, you can't choose the other part to come back and shoot at the first target to try and finish it. So you'd think their fire capability can't be affected anymore.

The pathfinder thing is a positive benefit, so let's think with a negative one. What if you fire all of your Ghostkeel weapons (with a cyclic ion raker) to a target and decide to roll one by one, as it is allowed. You use the overcharged profile and the first roll you make is a 1. The Keel is already damaged and that 1 mortal wound brings it to the first damage threshold, reducing its BS to 5+. Would roll the other shots on a 5+? Would you roll the Burst canons on a 5+?

It is a tricky subject, and I don't really know the answer myself.
Can a single model shoot its multiple weapons (ranged attack) at multiple different units? Sorry if it's the case, trying to drag my mind out of 7ed.

The sad dark place of 7ed.. Praise be 8ed, it is truly for the Greater Good!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Eastern Fringe

 Talamare wrote:

I'm not TFG either
Everyone who does this is not a TFG or WAAC
Implying that we are TFG or WAAC because we are following the rules correctly is insulting.
There is no exploit, and rolling dice of equal profiles together is an optional fast dice rule. Not a mandatory rule.



I'm not specifically calling YOU anything, stop getting so worked up. I'm just saying that I think those who are trying to exploit (and that's what I think it is, others can disagree) the ML system, feel like they are trying real hard to be 'TFG'


Razerous.... That is indeed the case. A model can split fire.

As for the example above regarding the suit going Nova, therefore cause a would and a drop in the damage table, I'd say that all firing is resolved first, before the wound is applied. (Like the ML, all firing is completed before effects take place)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/05 12:29:03


The first rule of unarmed combat is: don’t be unarmed. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Hollow wrote:
 Talamare wrote:

I'm not TFG either
Everyone who does this is not a TFG or WAAC
Implying that we are TFG or WAAC because we are following the rules correctly is insulting.
There is no exploit, and rolling dice of equal profiles together is an optional fast dice rule. Not a mandatory rule.



I'm not specifically calling YOU anything, stop getting so worked up. I'm just saying that I think those who are trying to exploit (and that's what I think it is, others can disagree) the ML system, feel like they are trying real hard to be 'TFG'


Razerous.... That is indeed the case. A model can split fire.

As for the example above regarding the suit going Nova, therefore cause a would and a drop in the damage table, I'd say that all firing is resolved first, before the wound is applied. (Like the ML, all firing is completed before effects take place)


Shots happen as they are Shot and rolled
Which is why it is also 100% legal when you're taking wounds for...
Let's say you have 8 models standing in cover, and 2 models standing outside of cover
If you get shot and take 5 wounds, you're legally allowed to take your saves 2 by 2 (1 by 1) until the 2 models outside of cover die. (Let's say you fail the 1st 2)
After they die you can get the Cover Save bonus for the next 3 wounds.

 Haechi wrote:
The pathfinder thing is a positive benefit, so let's think with a negative one. What if you fire all of your Ghostkeel weapons (with a cyclic ion raker) to a target and decide to roll one by one, as it is allowed. You use the overcharged profile and the first roll you make is a 1. The Keel is already damaged and that 1 mortal wound brings it to the first damage threshold, reducing its BS to 5+. Would roll the other shots on a 5+? Would you roll the Burst canons on a 5+?

It is a tricky subject, and I don't really know the answer myself.

Note when firing CIB and CIR
It states 1 or more
meaning that you should roll all the dice for the weapon at the same time.
If you roll multiple 1s, you only take 1 mortal wound

This is important for Crisis Suits who might have multiple CIB
You need to roll EACH WEAPON INDIVIDUALLY
If you lump all the shots together then you will take a mortal wound for EVERY 1 you roll
If you keep them separate then you don't suffer mortal wounds for any clumps of 1s you roll.

Clarifying
Crisis Suit with 3 CIB weapons
CIB 1 - 1, 1, 1
CIB 2 - 2, 2, 2
CIB 3 - 2, 2, 2

That model would take only a single Mortal Wound despite having rolled 3x 1s

CIB 1 - 1, 2, 2
CIB 2 - 1, 2, 2
CIB 3 - 1, 2, 2

That model would take 3 Mortal Wounds, since each weapon rolled a 1s

Nova wounds happen during the Movement phase, before any weapons are fired.
Plasma/Ion Weapons specifically state that the mortal wound happens after all this weapon's shot have been fired.
So yea, your burst cannon will be on 5s. Next time shoot it first.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/05 12:55:18



6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in de
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot




Germany

this is correct
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

Very interesting stuff =]
   
Made in us
Raging Ravener






At what points level are people thinking a Suoremacy Suit will start being worth it? The thing looks pretty great (especially with savior protocols) but at 1200 points I don't really see it being used under 3k point games?
   
Made in fi
Water-Caste Negotiator





Razerous wrote:
 Fueli wrote:
I don't see how declaring all targets matters when you still shoot all the weapons one by one. It's allowed. Deal with it.
Hmm.. might not be the best way to raise a good idea, as your point of view has a fair point.

I guess the idea boils down to the markerlights aren't applied to the target until the unit finishes shooting. Does the markerlight buff table rules refer to unit or models, about who gets the bonus. Still, whichever way I try to argue with myself, it's tricky!


Markerlight is applied as soon as it hits. Page 48 Index Xenos 2. It benefits all T'au Empire models So if you have declared that half of your 10 man pathfinder unit will shoot their markerlights at that target you can roll them one at a time, and after the first hit the rest of the pathfinders shooting at that target gain the effect of the markerlight token. All this is based on the shooting rules in the rulebook, especially the Fast Rolling Dice on page 179, which tells us it's not mandatory to roll all of the same kind of attacks at the same time. It's optional.

-Heresy grows from idleness- 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

 Fueli wrote:
Razerous wrote:
 Fueli wrote:
I don't see how declaring all targets matters when you still shoot all the weapons one by one. It's allowed. Deal with it.
Hmm.. might not be the best way to raise a good idea, as your point of view has a fair point.

I guess the idea boils down to the markerlights aren't applied to the target until the unit finishes shooting. Does the markerlight buff table rules refer to unit or models, about who gets the bonus. Still, whichever way I try to argue with myself, it's tricky!


Markerlight is applied as soon as it hits. Page 48 Index Xenos 2. It benefits all T'au Empire models So if you have declared that half of your 10 man pathfinder unit will shoot their markerlights at that target you can roll them one at a time, and after the first hit the rest of the pathfinders shooting at that target gain the effect of the markerlight token. All this is based on the shooting rules in the rulebook, especially the Fast Rolling Dice on page 179, which tells us it's not mandatory to roll all of the same kind of attacks at the same time. It's optional.
Hopefully it works like this

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






 Hollow wrote:
Although there is nothing written that would prohibit ML benefiting from other ML and it is seemingly possible to roll each individual ML in a unit, in order for the subsequent ML to benefit from previously successful ML. This is not something I would personally do. It stinks of poor sportsmanship and looking to exploit the rules.


You only ever have to check the first ML so its honestly not that bad. however when i asked before no one seems to be sure or cared.

im honestly not sure if it works or not.

edit: nevermind seems to work then.

Honestly roll one at a time till you hit 1. then roll any remaining in a cluster.

it would be pointless to roll 1 at a time till 5+ for that +1 bs. the only thing ML benefits from is the rerolls of 1 which isnt that bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/05 21:24:17


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Well, technically they also benefit from the "move and shoot heavy weapons at full BS" if you are not a drone. )the 3 marker benefit)

Though that's a less common event that it matters.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, technically they also benefit from the "move and shoot heavy weapons at full BS" if you are not a drone. )the 3 marker benefit)

Though that's a less common event that it matters.


Oh right.

so i guess it does matter up to 3

unless you didnt move. at which point you can roll the occasional units differently.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

Good point.

I've just watched a battle report with Drones losing models during a morale phase... Who made them leadership 6 seriously? How does that make any sense fluff wise? We have drones, low level artificial intelligence machines, who literally intercept projectiles at will to sacrifice themselves; but once too many of them get destroyed, they just fly away?

Not to mention they can't aim for gak.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/05 23:24:06


 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






 Haechi wrote:
Good point.

I've just watched a battle report with Drones losing models during a morale phase... Who made them leadership 6 seriously? How does that make any sense fluff wise? We have drones, low level artificial intelligence machines, who literally intercept projectiles at will to sacrifice themselves; but once too many of them get destroyed, they just fly away?

Not to mention they can't aim for gak.


Or it just causes network errors.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

I just realized that Riptides don't have to bring (and pay for) the shielded missile drones. So it bring the price down by 50 points!

My Riptide now costs 299 with HBC, two plasma rifles, ATS, and stimulant injector.

The rest of my list being full of markerlights, not having target lock is not an issue for me.

With those 50 free points I can get 5 gun drones to escort the riptide. Damn.

Sorry if everybody knew about this, but it's an enlightenment to me haha.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

I do wonder if we're underestimating the riptide. In particular, the protection that drones can give it might make it a lot tougher than it looks.

Shielded missile drones are a trap though. A very expensive model with a 4++ that it doesn't get to use if you pass wounds to it - because it just takes a mortal wound.
   
 
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