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 Talamare wrote:

The upgrade that allows us to shoot at Deep Strikers is called EWO. It's really powerful but really difficult to bring.
For starters it only affects enemies who Deep Strike within 12", so that's a lot of conditional already.
An enemy needs to bring Deep Strikers at all, and they need to be close range Deep Strikers.
It also costs 8 ponts, and on a lot of the things that can bring it; costs one of the Gun Slots.
Even when it doesn't cost a Gun Slot, it will still cost the Support Slot which could be used for other things that could improve our killing potential.

I hope the Pathfinders weren't shooting Markerlights + Assault Carbines. Since that is against the rules.

If you want to use Breachers, I recommend using the same Tidewall that your friend was using.
Then you don't even need to disembark to shoot their Pulse Shotguns.
Railsides and Railheads are solid choices. Longrails especially is absolutely insane.
Ghostkeel is a solid choice as well, but Riptide is pretty trash in 8e.
Stealth Suits are in a middling place at the moment, not spectacular, not garbage either. Some key usage like DC Carrier that nothing else in the army can compete with. Low cost for mediocre effectiveness...
Devilfish on the other hand, leans towards being pretty bad.
As far as my personal suggestion for an infantry heavy list, I would just use Cadre Fireblade HQ, Strike Teams with the Pulse Rifle, and a few Pathfinders with Accelerator Drones. That's 3 shots at 18" from the Strike Team.

No he used either the Markerlights or the Carbines, he played by the rules as far as I know. Well as an Imperium player you have to know that the latest trend is the Command Squad plasma spam, they drop a 4-man team full of plasma guns (I use mine with two meltas and two plasma) along with a Tempestor Prime who gives the order to reroll 1s to Hit and 1s to Wound and go full Overcharge. At 12" they fire 8 S8 AP-3 2D that hits on 3+, almost guaranteed to kill anything they want. With mine I managed to drop 10W off a Baneblade in a recent game (after that they tend to die due to the opponent realising these guys are mean), so you need to be prepared for close deep-striking units. It looked like a nice option at least for the Broadside who stayed in the backfield, I don't think the Ghostkeel looks like he needs that however.

Why are Devilfishes bad ? The Tidewall looks fun but not very fast, although the ability to bounce off Mortal Wounds on 6+ save rolls like Kastelan Robots is nice. I don't know, I like the idea of delivering a Strike team with a Devilfish to clear a building, throwing photon grenades before breaking in to deliver their S6 AP-2 shots to whoever is unlucky enough to be the target. Also, it breaks the idea of immobile Tau gunlines and I find that nice and more challenging. I'd keep pulse rifles (the 30" ones ?) for the sake of having some reach too of course.

What are Longrails ? The Sniper ones ? I love them too, they're almost like our Arquebuses.

So a Marker Drone is 8 pts, and you have to add the markerlight so 11 pts?

Stealth Suits are vastly underestimated imo. DC, 2 wounds 4 toughness with -1 for your opponent to hit, keep em in cover for a 2+ save, whats not to like?

 Aaranis wrote:

No he used either the Markerlights or the Carbines, he played by the rules as far as I know. Well as an Imperium player you have to know that the latest trend is the Command Squad plasma spam, they drop a 4-man team full of plasma guns (I use mine with two meltas and two plasma) along with a Tempestor Prime who gives the order to reroll 1s to Hit and 1s to Wound and go full Overcharge. At 12" they fire 8 S8 AP-3 2D that hits on 3+, almost guaranteed to kill anything they want. With mine I managed to drop 10W off a Baneblade in a recent game (after that they tend to die due to the opponent realising these guys are mean), so you need to be prepared for close deep-striking units. It looked like a nice option at least for the Broadside who stayed in the backfield, I don't think the Ghostkeel looks like he needs that however.

Why are Devilfishes bad ? The Tidewall looks fun but not very fast, although the ability to bounce off Mortal Wounds on 6+ save rolls like Kastelan Robots is nice. I don't know, I like the idea of delivering a Strike team with a Devilfish to clear a building, throwing photon grenades before breaking in to deliver their S6 AP-2 shots to whoever is unlucky enough to be the target. Also, it breaks the idea of immobile Tau gunlines and I find that nice and more challenging. I'd keep pulse rifles (the 30" ones ?) for the sake of having some reach too of course.

What are Longrails ? The Sniper ones ? I love them too, they're almost like our Arquebuses.

Just making sure, since that's a common mistake among Tau players recently.

For example that Plasma Team could just drop outside of the EWO user. As I said, it's not really easy to bring EWO.
Railsides are pretty great at carrying them, and Ghostkeels are fine at it. Crisis Suits would lose too much from it, and Stealth Suits aren't effective enough.
So, yea it's an incredibly powerful, insanely situational piece of equipment that competes heavily for it's place in our lists.

Devilfish are insanely expensive (110pts without counting the Gun Drones) for only 10 points worth of Guns. It's like if a Rhino costed an additional 40 points.
Altho the Tidewalls real penalty isn't it's slightly slower speed, but it's potential Command Point costs/Detachment Slot cost.

Pulse Rifles are 30"
Pathfinders can bring an Accelerator Drone that increases the range of Basic Pulse Guns (Carbines and Rifles) by 6"
Thus giving them them an effective 18" Rapid Fire Range.

I apologize, Longrails is short for Longstrike HQ Tank using Railgun as his weapon.
The dude is a Beast with BS2, +1 to Wounding, and +1 BS to Hammerheads Tanks nearby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
So a Marker Drone is 8 pts, and you have to add the markerlight so 11 pts?

Stealth Suits are vastly underestimated imo. DC, 2 wounds 4 toughness with -1 for your opponent to hit, keep em in cover for a 2+ save, whats not to like?

No, 10 points and they get their Markerlight for Free
All Drones get Weapons for Free

Stealth Suits are fairly survivable, that's fair
but they also don't do very much offensively.
I would suggest 2 DC + 1 VT Fusion, comes in at 115 pts

He now buffs himself with the +1 also.
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Index_Xenos2_ENG.pdf


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AceVentura wrote:


Longstrike now buffs himself with the +1 also.
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Index_Xenos2_ENG.pdf

EWO works against any kind of set up mechanic, so deep strikes, outflanks and some psykery are included in its line of work.

Against your special unit, Aaranis, the EWO would either force you to deploy more than 12" (negating your rapid fire extra shots) or closer (and maybe losing models).
I'd say a Ghostkeel is a good EWO platform, as it even gets a -2 to be hit by models more than 12" of it.

 Vector Strike wrote:
EWO works against any kind of set up mechanic, so deep strikes, outflanks and some psykery are included in its line of work.

Against your special unit, Aaranis, the EWO would either force you to deploy more than 12" (negating your rapid fire extra shots) or closer (and maybe losing models).
I'd say a Ghostkeel is a good EWO platform, as it even gets a -2 to be hit by models more than 12" of it.

And Sporemines from Biovores. Although saying that I am not finding EWO any good. So far for me 100% of enemy deep strikes have been between 12” and 18”. Not managed to fire it once.

 Vector Strike wrote:
EWO works against any kind of set up mechanic, so deep strikes, outflanks and some psykery are included in its line of work.

Against your special unit, Aaranis, the EWO would either force you to deploy more than 12" (negating your rapid fire extra shots) or closer (and maybe losing models).
I'd say a Ghostkeel is a good EWO platform, as it even gets a -2 to be hit by models more than 12" of it.

Against a unit with Meltas like mine (so, 12" range) the EWO effectively blocks me from entering. I don't know if there's much Melta drops anyway, but even then you only eat half the plasma shots so that's nice I take it.

Longstrike is really nice and I don't see any reason not to include him if you intended on bringing a Hammerhead, he's a HQ so maybe you want to keep those slots for other Characters ?

 Crusaderobr wrote:
So a Marker Drone is 8 pts, and you have to add the markerlight so 11 pts?

Stealth Suits are vastly underestimated imo. DC, 2 wounds 4 toughness with -1 for your opponent to hit, keep em in cover for a 2+ save, whats not to like?

What's DC? Stealth are fantastic at taking an objective and being annoying to remove. The issue is how little damage they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pottsey wrote:

So far for me 100% of enemy deep strikes have been between 12” and 18”. Not managed to fire it once.

Yeah but you have to realize maybe it's because of your EWO that they deployed further away. The item goal is not just to shoot at them, it's to deny them.

DC is drone controller, as you'd see if you held your mouse over it. Stealths are good candidates to carry the DC because there isn't much else for them to take.

I agree that there's a problem with Tau shooting, at least on paper. Railguns are just lascannons, in effect, but imperial armies get many lascannons for every railgun the Tau can field.

I think the only sensible solution is to change the railgun's stats somewhat. For example maybe it should do 2d6 wounds. If you just get one shot from your tank, instead of four, that shot should at least do a significant amount of damage.

Mandragola wrote:
DC is drone controller, as you'd see if you held your mouse over it. Stealths are good candidates to carry the DC because there isn't much else for them to take.


.

I see. I did hover my mouse over it and thought it has to be something else. I don't like giving DC to any unit that doesn't have a better BS than 4+. I'd rather give ATS to Stealths I think.

DC is completely irrelevant to your BS. it gives drones in the bubble +1 the BS, unlike 7th where it gave the user's.


ATS on stealth suits is silly, the damage increase does not even equal the cost increase, spending these points on more boys is outright better.

 BoomWolf wrote:
DC is completely irrelevant to your BS. it gives drones in the bubble +1 the BS, unlike 7th where it gave the user's.


ATS on stealth suits is silly, the damage increase does not even equal the cost increase, spending these points on more boys is outright better.

That... makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the insight, I didn't even think about it.

 BoomWolf wrote:
DC is completely irrelevant to your BS. it gives drones in the bubble +1 the BS, unlike 7th where it gave the user's.


ATS on stealth suits is silly, the damage increase does not even equal the cost increase, spending these points on more boys is outright better.

So interesting question you raise me.

What's better on an XV9 with two DBBC, for 16 str 5 shots, along with 4 gun drones.

And ATS or drone controller. (or other?!)

You are getting a better (earlier) bonus of +1 to hit with 4 gun drones, or 16 shots. However you are getting a worse (later) bonus with -1 to the save with the ATS on the same number of 16 shots. Plus the ATS is a tiny bit more expensive, right?

However however... the DC relies on functional drones; the ATS is for the main model; you'll likely loose drones before the main suit; if you did it's a moot point because you'd loose the ATS/DC either way.

I completely disagree on the efficacy of the Devilfish. They are very good. Their damage output is irrelevant. They exist to be fast, resilient tarpits that coincidentally also deliver Breachers. Tarpiting other shooting armies is now our greatest strength. I've beaten guard, Ynnari and AdMech in this way, and the games I lost came doe to me not having enough tarpits.

You have to change your style of play or change your army. GW gave Tau a major paradigm shift, which we can all complain about, but in the meantime, adapt or die.

Razerous wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
DC is completely irrelevant to your BS. it gives drones in the bubble +1 the BS, unlike 7th where it gave the user's.


ATS on stealth suits is silly, the damage increase does not even equal the cost increase, spending these points on more boys is outright better.

So interesting question you raise me.

What's better on an XV9 with two DBBC, for 16 str 5 shots, along with 4 gun drones.

And ATS or drone controller. (or other?!)

You are getting a better (earlier) bonus of +1 to hit with 4 gun drones, or 16 shots. However you are getting a worse (later) bonus with -1 to the save with the ATS on the same number of 16 shots. Plus the ATS is a tiny bit more expensive, right?

However however... the DC relies on functional drones; the ATS is for the main model; you'll likely loose drones before the main suit; if you did it's a moot point because you'd loose the ATS/DC either way.

The value of the ATS depends on how many weapons it will improve. On a 4-BC XV9 it will buff lots and lots of weapons, so it's value is high. On a one-BC stealth suit, not so much.

A BC's value is constant regardless of the platform it's on. So is its cost. However the opportunity cost is not always equal. Sticking a DC on a commander means losing a BS2+ gun. But a stealth suit has a slot for a support system, and only one gun that you could buff - making other support systems inefficient. And stealth suits have the same range as gun drones, meaning they'll tend to want to hang around in the same kind of places.

All of which means that DCs are a good option for stealth suits and ATSs are a good option for BC XV9s.

Someone earlier suggested using an XV9 with pulse submunition rifles and a DC to look after marker drones. That isn't a terrible option, though it's kind of unspectacular.

 The Shrike wrote:
I completely disagree on the efficacy of the Devilfish. They are very good. Their damage output is irrelevant. They exist to be fast, resilient tarpits that coincidentally also deliver Breachers. Tarpiting other shooting armies is now our greatest strength. I've beaten guard, Ynnari and AdMech in this way, and the games I lost came doe to me not having enough tarpits.

You have to change your style of play or change your army. GW gave Tau a major paradigm shift, which we can all complain about, but in the meantime, adapt or die.

I think you're confusing the Wave Serpent and the Devilfish.
Wave Serpent is fast and resilient. Devilfish is an overpriced Rhino that hovers.

Also, what do you mean by Tarpitting? Do you mean assaulting with your transport?
If your opponents aren't bringing enough firepower to pop a Rhino in 1 turn... I don't even know how to continue this argument.

 Talamare wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:
I completely disagree on the efficacy of the Devilfish. They are very good. Their damage output is irrelevant. They exist to be fast, resilient tarpits that coincidentally also deliver Breachers. Tarpiting other shooting armies is now our greatest strength. I've beaten guard, Ynnari and AdMech in this way, and the games I lost came doe to me not having enough tarpits.

You have to change your style of play or change your army. GW gave Tau a major paradigm shift, which we can all complain about, but in the meantime, adapt or die.

I think you're confusing the Wave Serpent and the Devilfish.
Wave Serpent is fast and resilient. Devilfish is an overpriced Rhino that hovers.

Also, what do you mean by Tarpitting? Do you mean assaulting with your transport?
If your opponents aren't bringing enough firepower to pop a Rhino in 1 turn... I don't even know how to continue this argument.

I completely agree with Shrike on this. In my games, I have used devilfish to brutal success. And yes, charge with them. You charge a razorback or pred, or anything else shooty without the fly keyword, and you are effectively taking it out of the game for at LEAST 1 turn, more likely 2-3.

And I'm not sure how much firepower you expect your opponent to dump into a devilfish? Or even a rhino for that matter. If they want it dead badly enough to focus major firepower on it, then great. That's less heat that my crisis, commanders, and stealth teams are taking. But anyway, I have been running 4-5 fish, so they will have to do a lot of popping in a hurry, or they will find themselves swamped quickly.

 Talamare wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:
I completely disagree on the efficacy of the Devilfish. They are very good. Their damage output is irrelevant. They exist to be fast, resilient tarpits that coincidentally also deliver Breachers. Tarpiting other shooting armies is now our greatest strength. I've beaten guard, Ynnari and AdMech in this way, and the games I lost came doe to me not having enough tarpits.

You have to change your style of play or change your army. GW gave Tau a major paradigm shift, which we can all complain about, but in the meantime, adapt or die.

I think you're confusing the Wave Serpent and the Devilfish.
Wave Serpent is fast and resilient. Devilfish is an overpriced Rhino that hovers.

Also, what do you mean by Tarpitting? Do you mean assaulting with your transport?
If your opponents aren't bringing enough firepower to pop a Rhino in 1 turn... I don't even know how to continue this argument.

The opponent has to deal with multiple fish and multiple Ghostkeels doing the same thing. Not so easy.

As with last edition, the key to making Devilfish worth a crap seems to be to spam them. In 7th, it was so you could abuse jink. Now, it's just so you have a wall of relatively durable junk to obscure important units and/or block movement. Charging with Devilfish seems like an okay-ish tactic, but you have to remember that you're using a fairly expensive unit to occupy whatever they're charging. I'd imagine anything expensive enough to make that gambit worthwhile is going to die before Devilfish get anywhere near them. For instance, that Predator you mentioned is going to take a fusion Commnder to the face long before a 'fish chugs across the board to engage it.

I'm interested enough in Devilfish to give them a shot, but I honestly think that all-out offense is going to be the key to success for Tau this edition, as we currently stand. With the changes to AP, our durable suits aren't the stalwart gun platforms they used to be, despite drone protection, so we've got to chop down to opposing offensive threats as soon as possible. It helps a lot that Gun Drones are both our most offensive offensive weapons and our best defensive option for larger suits, so count on bringing those guys in droves.

 Haechi wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
So a Marker Drone is 8 pts, and you have to add the markerlight so 11 pts?

Stealth Suits are vastly underestimated imo. DC, 2 wounds 4 toughness with -1 for your opponent to hit, keep em in cover for a 2+ save, whats not to like?

What's DC? Stealth are fantastic at taking an objective and being annoying to remove. The issue is how little damage they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pottsey wrote:

So far for me 100% of enemy deep strikes have been between 12” and 18”. Not managed to fire it once.

Yeah but you have to realize maybe it's because of your EWO that they deployed further away. The item goal is not just to shoot at them, it's to deny them.

Not in my experience although I admit that can happen. So far all the deep strikers I have come across have been happy to deep strike outside 12” and use assault weapons. The one time I could have used EWO was when some spore mines landed but that time I had no EWO.

 BoomWolf wrote:
ATS on stealth suits is silly, the damage increase does not even equal the cost increase, spending these points on more boys is outright better.

I don’t agree for the price of ATS you can only buy 1 extra stealth suit and ATS increases your close combat damage as well as shooting. More basic troops aren’t always better at they wont be in the fire range bubble that the stealth suits are using ATS in.
Saying that I only put ATS on the burst suits so its 32pts. Don’t see it as that useful for the fusion suits.

Pottsey wrote:

 Haechi wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
So a Marker Drone is 8 pts, and you have to add the markerlight so 11 pts?

Stealth Suits are vastly underestimated imo. DC, 2 wounds 4 toughness with -1 for your opponent to hit, keep em in cover for a 2+ save, whats not to like?

What's DC? Stealth are fantastic at taking an objective and being annoying to remove. The issue is how little damage they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pottsey wrote:

So far for me 100% of enemy deep strikes have been between 12” and 18”. Not managed to fire it once.

Yeah but you have to realize maybe it's because of your EWO that they deployed further away. The item goal is not just to shoot at them, it's to deny them.

Not in my experience although I admit that can happen. So far all the deep strikers I have come across have been happy to deep strike outside 12” and use assault weapons. The one time I could have used EWO was when some spore mines landed but that time I had no EWO.

If they're deepstriking within 12", you can EWO them. If they're deepstriking over 12", they can't rapid-fire 24" weapons or fire 12" assault weapons (most Plasma guns and most melta guns, respectively), so denying those extra 3" seems like one of the prime purposes of EWO - not to prevent Deepstriking, but to prevent EFFECTIVE Deepstriking.

 BoomWolf wrote:
ATS on stealth suits is silly, the damage increase does not even equal the cost increase, spending these points on more boys is outright better.

I don’t agree for the price of ATS you can only buy 1 extra stealth suit and ATS increases your close combat damage as well as shooting. More basic troops aren’t always better at they wont be in the fire range bubble that the stealth suits are using ATS in.
Saying that I only put ATS on the burst suits so its 32pts. Don’t see it as that useful for the fusion suits.

How are you getting 32 points for a BC stealthsuit with ATS?

When I add up the base cost with the BC cost, then add the ATS cost, I am NOT getting 32.

Against MEQ

Stealth Suit ATS - 38 points
4 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 0.7777 (48.862)
Stealth Suit Normal - 30 points
4 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 0.5185 (57.859)

So yea, ATS is a buff to Stealth Suits vs just taking more Stealth Suits.......... but......

Gun Drone without DC
4 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 0.3456 (23.148)

Gun Drones with DC
4 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 0.5185 (15.429)

The buff to Gun Drones is so massive that it doesn't matter
You're better off using DC + Gun Drones than using more Stealth Suits.


Comparison of equivalent points
6 ATS Stealth Suits vs 3 DC Stealth Suits + 12 Gun Drones EDIT - vs 25 Gun Drones...

ATS - 24 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 4.66
DC - 60 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 7.77
EDIT - GD - 100 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 8.64
Welp... nevermind... Stealth Suits kinda of suck
Anyone know how to setup an equivalency equation?
Let's try...
(67*3) + (15.4*X) = (23.15*X)
X = ~25
DC + 25 GD vs 38 GD
112 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~14.5
152 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~13.1

Damn overshot it, but it did prove that there is a break point. A minimal amount of drones that makes DC Good vs Trash.
Let's do a final check on DC+20GD vs 33GD
92 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~11.9
132 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~11.4

Big european ETC is in and the Tau ranking was getting curb stomped. Other than them overall ranking really low I can't find out much else about it other than that Team England took the win and deathwing flyer spam list everyone is worried about won there as well. 8th edition is clearly not as balanced as they thought.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

 Haechi wrote:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
So a Marker Drone is 8 pts, and you have to add the markerlight so 11 pts?

Stealth Suits are vastly underestimated imo. DC, 2 wounds 4 toughness with -1 for your opponent to hit, keep em in cover for a 2+ save, whats not to like?

What's DC? Stealth are fantastic at taking an objective and being annoying to remove. The issue is how little damage they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pottsey wrote:

So far for me 100% of enemy deep strikes have been between 12” and 18”. Not managed to fire it once.

Yeah but you have to realize maybe it's because of your EWO that they deployed further away. The item goal is not just to shoot at them, it's to deny them.

Not in my experience although I admit that can happen. So far all the deep strikers I have come across have been happy to deep strike outside 12” and use assault weapons. The one time I could have used EWO was when some spore mines landed but that time I had no EWO.

If they're deepstriking within 12", you can EWO them. If they're deepstriking over 12", they can't rapid-fire 24" weapons or fire 12" assault weapons (most Plasma guns and most melta guns, respectively), so denying those extra 3" seems like one of the prime purposes of EWO - not to prevent Deepstriking, but to prevent EFFECTIVE Deepstriking.

 BoomWolf wrote:
ATS on stealth suits is silly, the damage increase does not even equal the cost increase, spending these points on more boys is outright better.

I don’t agree for the price of ATS you can only buy 1 extra stealth suit and ATS increases your close combat damage as well as shooting. More basic troops aren’t always better at they wont be in the fire range bubble that the stealth suits are using ATS in.
Saying that I only put ATS on the burst suits so its 32pts. Don’t see it as that useful for the fusion suits.

How are you getting 32 points for a BC stealthsuit with ATS?

When I add up the base cost with the BC cost, then add the ATS cost, I am NOT getting 32.

Sorry that wasn’t clear. I mean the ATS for the squad costs 32pts as I don’t use ATS on the Fusion Suits. Personally I consider 32pts for the squad worthwhile and don’t see it as better to spend 32points on extra suits instead of ATS. As for deepstrike in my experience those situations rarely happen. Perhaps it’s just the type of players I have been up against as so far I have not managed to fire EWO once. No one even bothers to ask if I have EWO, they just deep strike without factoring it in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talamare wrote:
Against MEQ

Stealth Suit ATS - 38 points
4 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 0.7777 (48.862)
Stealth Suit Normal - 30 points
4 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 0.5185 (57.859)

So yea, ATS is a buff to Stealth Suits vs just taking more Stealth Suits.......... but......

Gun Drone without DC
4 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 0.3456 (23.148)

Gun Drones with DC
4 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 0.5185 (15.429)

The buff to Gun Drones is so massive that it doesn't matter
You're better off using DC + Gun Drones than using more Stealth Suits.


Comparison of equivalent points
6 ATS Stealth Suits vs 3 DC Stealth Suits + 12 Gun Drones EDIT - vs 25 Gun Drones...

ATS - 24 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 4.66
DC - 60 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 7.77
EDIT - GD - 100 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 8.64
Welp... nevermind... Stealth Suits kinda of suck
Anyone know how to setup an equivalency equation?
Let's try...
(67*3) + (15.4*X) = (23.15*X)
X = ~25
DC + 25 GD vs 38 GD
112 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~14.5
152 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~13.1

Damn overshot it, but it did prove that there is a break point. A minimal amount of drones that makes DC Good vs Trash.
Let's do a final check on DC+20GD vs 33GD
92 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~11.9
132 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~11.4

I tend to infiltrate my stealth with homing bacon so there are only 2 drones. I found the deep strike flamers extremely effective. To the point where a full sized stealth team with ATS + triple flamer deep strike suits more effective then buffed gun drones. Its not all about what causes the most wounds. My last game I killed 10 killerkans and 2 deff dreads like this before the gun drones would have even got into fire range. The numbers might say drones are better but I don't see how I could have done 60+wounds with mass drones by the end of turn 2. It was a devastating combo.

I agree with the adapt or Die mentality. Our army got shaken up pretty well. But we have our strengths with Fly being on basically everything.

Our stealth suits with a DC, EOW, and Velocity Tracker will be the best load out for them. Drones will be there bubble of health and secondary threat. If the enemy wants to shoot the Stealth units let them; we carry a negative to the hit role which is still imo the better of defense abilities in the game. That 105 points for a 3 man team and worth it. IF you really want to keep the costs down drop the EOW.


Designer commentary on how hits work out.
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf

Pottsey wrote:

I tend to infiltrate my stealth with homing bacon so there are only 2 drones. I found the deep strike flamers extremely effective. To the point where a full sized stealth team with ATS + triple flamer deep strike suits more effective then buffed gun drones. Its not all about what causes the most wounds. My last game I killed 10 killerkans and 2 deff dreads like this before the gun drones would have even got into fire range. The numbers might say drones are better but I don't see how I could have done 60+wounds with mass drones by the end of turn 2. It was a devastating combo.

Well... the Crisis you drop could bring an additional 6 Drones for a total of 8. With so few Drones you don't need 3 DC, just 1 should be sufficient. Which would vastly increase your output without ruining the tactic.

Also I'm going to assume you wrote ATS + Double Flamer
If it was Triple Flamer I'm going to assume you either cheated or used Monat for Flamers which sounds like a Sin in my book.
Let's find the math for Kans then, they are basically MEQ with T5.
Flamers are S4 so already off to a bad start...
68 / (7 * 1/3 * 1/2) = 1.16 (58.28)
Also Triple Flamer Suits...
69 / (10.5 * 1/3 * 1/3) = 1.16 (59.14)
58 points per wound is a terrible value...

Even Triple Plasma Rifle Crisis...
75 / (6 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 5/6) = 1.94 (38.57)
Are VASTLY better and don't even need a Stealth Suit to guide them in.

and Quad Monat Plasma Rifles
120 / (8 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 5/6) = 4.32 (27.77)
are just an insult

Don't use Flamers to kill Tanks

Weirdly, I think a riptide might make a decent drone controller. I was looking at my IA and double fusion riptide. It's going to get a target lock of course, then... something else. A drone controller seems a decent option.

The basic idea would be to run the riptide with several units of 6 or so drones around it. They both want to get within 18" of things. It would be a hell of a job to get rid of the riptide if it could put big hits onto drones.

Having said that, riptides do remain insanely expensive. This is more a case of me trying to find something to do with my riptide, rather than finding the best thing to put a DC onto.

Ishotfirst wrote:
I agree with the adapt or Die mentality. Our army got shaken up pretty well. But we have our strengths with Fly being on basically everything.

Our stealth suits with a DC, EOW, and Velocity Tracker will be the best load out for them. Drones will be there bubble of health and secondary threat. If the enemy wants to shoot the Stealth units let them; we carry a negative to the hit role which is still imo the better of defense abilities in the game. That 105 points for a 3 man team and worth it. IF you really want to keep the costs down drop the EOW.


Designer commentary on how hits work out.
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf

I'm generally with you on the DC and Velocity Tracker (DC because Stealth don't benefit as much from other wargear, VT because it is shared with the whole unit, which stacks with the support systems available to other suits in the unit).

EWO I'm just not seeing as being worthwhile on Stealthsuits. You're paying EWO costs for each suit, to only get a single BS4+ Burst Cannon per EWO spent, which seems dreadfully inefficient.

I'll admit that the idea remains intriguing, since Stealthsuits are among the most likely of T'au units to be operating on their own or at the edges of T'au-held positions, and so are more likely than, say, a backfield Broadside to actually provide a meaningful bubble of discouragement (unless the enemy has room to Deepstrike directly behind an exposed backfield Broadside, the Broadside is unlikely to be positioned where the 3" of suggestive area denial is actually meaningful).

Might give it a shot, but the damage output just doesn't scream the "area denial" that a Stormsurge or Riptide with EWO does.

Pottsey wrote:
Sorry that wasn’t clear. I mean the ATS for the squad costs 32pts as I don’t use ATS on the Fusion Suits. Personally I consider 32pts for the squad worthwhile and don’t see it as better to spend 32points on extra suits instead of ATS.

Talamare kindly brought to light (a very small portion of) the mathhammer, and I'd imagine it is often the case that increasing the point cost by ~25% is worth the extra penetration of AP-1.

That said, an extra suit is an extra couple of wounds, and while 5 BCs is less firepower than 4BCs, 2 wounds to the squad means the ATS squad lost 25% of its firepower while the vanilla squad only lost 20%.

I'll probably end up putting either Target Locks or ATS on any Stealthsuits that don't have a DC or VT, personally - ATS if I expect to have my Stealth Suits staying closer to my firebase, TL if I expect the Stealth Suits will need to operate more independently.

As for deepstrike in my experience those situations rarely happen. Perhaps it’s just the type of players I have been up against as so far I have not managed to fire EWO once. No one even bothers to ask if I have EWO, they just deep strike without factoring it in.

I think its safe to say that Deepstriking within 12" is a very powerful tool for a very large portion of WH40k's armies (namely, the Imperium and Chaos, with their 12" meltaguns and mostly 24" plasmaguns), but that not all enemies deepstrike or need to deepstrike within 12" to be effective (Tau Commanders with 4 CIBs, for example, needs only get within 18" of the target).

Never having used EWO does not really suggest EWO wasn't meaningful, and I wonder if you explicitly asked the opponent if they deepstruck without factoring EWO in. Even if they did not, would they have been willing to deepstrike within EWO range had you positioned the EWO better?

We're all working with anecdotes here, so I can't claim your experience to be anecdotal without throwing my own out with the proverbial bathwater... which is fine. But while EWO is situational in its usefulness, I think its disingenuous to think that the potential of a Stormsurge, Riptide, Ghostkeel, R'varna or Y'vahra getting a completely free, no-penalty shooting phase against your models when they arrive (and before they get a chance to shoot or assault) wouldn't result in modifying where an opponent is willing to deepstrike their models, and (on some models) an EWO is a small point cost to pay to dictate (even in its limited way) an opponent's choices in mobility.

Gamgee wrote:Big european ETC is in and the Tau ranking was getting curb stomped. Other than them overall ranking really low I can't find out much else about it other than that Team England took the win and deathwing flyer spam list everyone is worried about won there as well. 8th edition is clearly not as balanced as they thought.

Care to share a link for those results?

 Talamare wrote:

Welp... nevermind... Stealth Suits kinda of suck
Anyone know how to setup an equivalency equation?
Let's try...
(67*3) + (15.4*X) = (23.15*X)
X = ~25
DC + 25 GD vs 38 GD
112 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~14.5
152 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~13.1

Damn overshot it, but it did prove that there is a break point. A minimal amount of drones that makes DC Good vs Trash.
Let's do a final check on DC+20GD vs 33GD
92 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~11.9
132 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~11.4

(67.5*3) + (15.4*X) = (23.15*X)
This problem was stuck in my head for a bit, and I couldn't let it go.
If I had just subtracted 3X I would have come to the right value
i.e. (67.5*3) + (15.4*X) - 3X = (23.15*X)
Which comes to X = 18
84 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~10.88
124 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~10.71

and 17 for confirmation...
80 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~10.37
120 * 14/36 * 2/3 * 1/3 = ~10.37
Whatever! I'm so done right now
3 Stealth Suits each with a DC + 17 Gun Drones = 30 Gun Drones
240 points for the setup