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 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Ishotfirst wrote:
I agree with the adapt or Die mentality. Our army got shaken up pretty well. But we have our strengths with Fly being on basically everything.

Our stealth suits with a DC, EOW, and Velocity Tracker will be the best load out for them. Drones will be there bubble of health and secondary threat. If the enemy wants to shoot the Stealth units let them; we carry a negative to the hit role which is still imo the better of defense abilities in the game. That 105 points for a 3 man team and worth it. IF you really want to keep the costs down drop the EOW.


Designer commentary on how hits work out.
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer_40000_Designers_Commentary-ENG.pdf

I'm generally with you on the DC and Velocity Tracker (DC because Stealth don't benefit as much from other wargear, VT because it is shared with the whole unit, which stacks with the support systems available to other suits in the unit).

EWO I'm just not seeing as being worthwhile on Stealthsuits. You're paying EWO costs for each suit, to only get a single BS4+ Burst Cannon per EWO spent, which seems dreadfully inefficient.

I'll admit that the idea remains intriguing, since Stealthsuits are among the most likely of T'au units to be operating on their own or at the edges of T'au-held positions, and so are more likely than, say, a backfield Broadside to actually provide a meaningful bubble of discouragement (unless the enemy has room to Deepstrike directly behind an exposed backfield Broadside, the Broadside is unlikely to be positioned where the 3" of suggestive area denial is actually meaningful).

Might give it a shot, but the damage output just doesn't scream the "area denial" that a Stormsurge or Riptide with EWO does.

You are right on the EWO for some reason I was thinking it applied to the unit. However, it is probably served best to have the EWO on a Broadside or occasional commander.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Gamgee wrote:Big european ETC is in and the Tau ranking was getting curb stomped. Other than them overall ranking really low I can't find out much else about it other than that Team England took the win and deathwing flyer spam list everyone is worried about won there as well. 8th edition is clearly not as balanced as they thought.

Care to share a link for those results?

I saw the Google doc with the lists. Tau player was running shadowsun 2 big units of stealth suits 1 ghostkeel darkstrider, long strike, 10 kroot, 2 units of strikes with markers drones, 2 units of pathfinders with drones and rail rifles, 1 hammerhead and a devilfish.

Not what I would call a super optimum list. Especially since we now know that including anti flyer units and VT's is going to be needed for tornaments

Edit: added link
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YwnXKk9yGnHORdRkUQnA94_4nf6EziarXv5R_ysD-Io/mobilebasic

 AceVentura wrote:


He now buffs himself with the +1 also.
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Index_Xenos2_ENG.pdf

You getting the keyword mechanic wrong. He buffs TX7 Hammerhead Gunships and not TX7 HAMMERHEAD GUNSHIPS. That's not the same. He buffs a specific Datasheet Name, not a KEYWORD. So no +1 for himself. The "other" was removed because it was never needed.

Mirny wrote:

 AceVentura wrote:


He now buffs himself with the +1 also.
https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Index_Xenos2_ENG.pdf

You getting the keyword mechanic wrong. He buffs TX7 Hammerhead Gunships and not TX7 HAMMERHEAD GUNSHIPS. That's not the same. He buffs a specific Datasheet Name, not a KEYWORD. So no +1 for himself. The "other" was removed because it was never needed.

There is some indication that is the case, given that apparently this is distinguishable in AoS (that's by statements of others, though - if someone has samples one way or the other they're aware of where this is explicitly distinguished, that'd be great). Consider that conditionally conceded, if you like.

There is also no valid reason why they would have changed the wording for Longstrike's ability through errata EXCEPT to allow Longstrike to benefit from his own special rule. It being extraneous is not enough, since it would be unnecessary to modify for the game to play as GW wants it to play. I have a hard time believing that we're supposed to believe that GW is so obsessed over making sure their language is efficient that they'll take the time, effort, and space to correct language that doesn't actually need to be corrected - if they're bothering to make an Errata for it, they're doing so to clarify the meaning (not needed here) or to change the meaning (only applicable here if Longstrike was meant to affect himself).

Since I have yet to see any formal acknowledgement of a keyword system separate from the Keyword system we have in place in 8th, and so your proposal (while possibly valid, as explained) has no actual evidentiary support within WH40k, I'm going to lean on the side of RAI on this one, and I have a feeling that's going to be the case for just about all T'au players and Tournaments.

Your argument reminds me of me in 4th edition, when technically the Multitracker didn't allow a battlesuit to fire a twin-linked weapon and another weapon (twin-linked or not) due to the Multi-tracker only allowing models to fire two Weapon Systems, rather than two weapons... Regardless of how technically correct I was, no T'au player actually played it RAW because the RAI was so clear.

I think the same is the case here, particularly given that GW bothered to errata Longstrike's wording in a way that would only make sense if it was intended to grant Longstrike the ability to benefit from it.

In other words: Bolded and/or Capitalized or not, it seems blatantly clear that the keyword is intended as a keyword, and Longstrike has the right keyword to benefit.

This has already been errated - he buffs himself. Long strike is basically auto include in a tau list now. OFC I am really happy about this.

I won my first game with tau. 3 Rail and SMS hammerheard (one being long strike) Lots of fire warriors and guns drones, a single 12 man pathfinder with pulse accelerator, 2 commanders (1 4x fussion, 1 4x CIB) and shadowsun and darkstrider. pretty deadly.

 Xenomancers wrote:
This has already been errated - he buffs himself. Long strike is basically auto include in a tau list now. OFC I am really happy about this.

I won my first game with tau. 3 Rail and SMS hammerheard (one being long strike) Lots of fire warriors and guns drones, a single 12 man pathfinder with pulse accelerator, 2 commanders (1 4x fussion, 1 4x CIB) and shadowsun and darkstrider. pretty deadly.

The technical problem with the errata, which Mirny is having a blast pointing out on every forum I see him frequent (but which, as mentioned, almost certainly will fail to convince anyone to play as may be technically required), is that Longstrike's benefit is limited to <Sept> TX7 Hammerhead Gunships, with the <Sept> formatted as a Keyword (bolded, all capital letters) but the TX7 Hammerhead Gunship without the keyword formatting.z

Longstrike is a Keyword TX7 Hammerhead Gunship, but is not technically titled as a TX7 Hammerhead Gunship (even though he rides a TX7 Hammerhead Gunship and has the Keyword indicating he's a TX7 Hammerhead Gunship).

Supposedly (no personal knowledge one way or the other), Age of Sigmar distinguishes between these two keyword systems, so its actually possible that he's got the RAW and the RAI of it.

I consider that a dubious possibility based on the very errata you mentioned and its superfluous nature IF Mirny is correct... but that is, I believe, an accurate explanation for why this isn't as blatantly obvious as 99.9999% of T'au players have played it post-errata.

I'm going to try to write a draft list to see if the units I like in the army are playable, but I need a few answers. How are Kroots played now ? Back then they were used with the Sniper rounds to deal some damage but weren't advised in CC, are they know ? They still look feeble, even with a Kroot Shaper. The Hounds however look interesting, with only 4 pts per model and the number of attacks they make (especially with a Shaper nearby to reroll 1s to Wound) at S3 AP-1 they look decent enough for their cost. The problem would be to make the Shaper follow their 12" movement. The Krootox riders have a nice gun too and are not too shabby in CC, what do you make of them ? It seems you need to play your Kroots as a big pack of all their units to support each other and tarpit the enemy. I may be wrong of course.

What do you guys use to reliably secure and hold objectives ? I may be starting to play Maelstrom of War some day so being able to quickly switch the objectives I need to hold is crucial. XV8 I suppose ?

Your no-brainer HQ choices ? I'm thinking about having a Cadre Fireblade near some Pulse Rifles FW, and of course Longstrike as my Hammerhead with Railgun. I fail to see the use of Ethereals though, how do you use them ? Could Darkstrider be well used if paired with a full Breacher squad in a Devilfish to drop in the face of the enemy, and pepper them with S6 shots at -1T from Darkstrider ability ? Wounding MEQ on 2+ with troops looks tempting.

What's your main source of Markelights ? My opponent used two teams of Pathfinders but once they died (and that happens fast) he lost all his Markerlights sources. Is it better to have a few Markerlights spread around your army (with drones and other options) or do you use small packs of Pathfinder too ?

What's the purpose of the Piranha ? Apart from carrying a Fusion Blaster I don't see their use to be honest.

If I read right the only source of Snipers are the Sniper Drones ? they don't look amazing but I'm used to the Arquebus Rangers How do you deal with Characters ? You drop a Crisis in their face and Fusion Blaster them to death (it worked with Shadowsun and my Techpriest) ?

Thanks for taking the time to answer my Tau noob questions :p

EDIT: Use of the Shield Drones ? Protecting Characters by tanking in front of them ? Can't see a use for Fire Warriors at all.

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm going to try to write a draft list to see if the units I like in the army are playable, but I need a few answers. How are Kroots played now ? Back then they were used with the Sniper rounds to deal some damage but weren't advised in CC, are they know ? They still look feeble, even with a Kroot Shaper. The Hounds however look interesting, with only 4 pts per model and the number of attacks they make (especially with a Shaper nearby to reroll 1s to Wound) at S3 AP-1 they look decent enough for their cost. The problem would be to make the Shaper follow their 12" movement. The Krootox riders have a nice gun too and are not too shabby in CC, what do you make of them ? It seems you need to play your Kroots as a big pack of all their units to support each other and tarpit the enemy. I may be wrong of course.

God, I miss the Sniper rounds on our Kroot. We could have had viable T'au snipers, instead of being left with the irrelevant Sniper Drone.

Kroot seem to fulfill two basic roles: Cheap body bubble-wrap for your models you actually care about, and using their 7" Scout move to deny Deepstrike, tie up enemy units as far as possible from T'au-possessed territory, and generally to be disruptive.

Shaper's useful if you plan on having a lot of Kroot together, but unless you've got multiple units all within buffing range, you're probably better off just buying more basic kroot.

Hounds are surprisingly efficient in CQC for their points, and with their speed, make for one of the only half-decent CQC units the T'au have. Having a SHaper nearby for rerolling 1s to wound is nice, but with the S3 of the Hound, not terribly necessary or effective as a boost (you're generally only wounding on 4s or 5s anyway, so you're not rerolling more than about 1 in 6 shots and that reroll fails most of the time).

Carnivores, while improved in CQC generally in 8th, are still mediocre at best and shouldn't be counted on to win CQC, just to tie up/deny shooting and assaulting for enemy units.

What do you guys use to reliably secure and hold objectives ? I may be starting to play Maelstrom of War some day so being able to quickly switch the objectives I need to hold is crucial. XV8 I suppose?

I like Stealth Suits with a DC and Gun Drones, for their respectable speed (8" plus they have assault weapons, so +1d6" isn't as painful), their durability (either for their points, or due to being able to pass off the worst ablative wounds to drones), and their firepower (Gun Drones are practically the definition of dakka baseline, and the DC helps a lot, with the Stealth able to bring the occasional Fusion for heavy vehicle work), and their bodycount (Stealth are fairly cheap for what they do, and Drones are fairly cheap to put bodies on the table, and controlling objectives is all about having more bodies than the opponent.

Vespids are also decent, having even greater speed, comparable firepower, and nearly comparable bodycount (averaged out), though they're less durable than the Stealth Suit/Drone combo.

Piranhas can be a emergency objective-holder, given its speed and assault weapons, as well as its ability to become 3 models instead of 1 (by popping the Drones out).

I know some people are having good success with Breachers in Devilfish, and I'd imagine that combo should work just fine in both clearing out enemies on the objective and temporarily holding the objective through bodycount. Strikers could potentially work in the same role.

Oddly, Commanders and XV9s make half-way decent objective holders in an emergency for the first three turns, through judicious use of a Manta Drop - XV9s especially, given they are relatively cheap, can bring surprising amounts of firepower on their own, and can be accompanied by 4 Gun Drones. Either way, that's 3-5 bodies that can either deepstrike near an objective and annihilate the enemy (so another of your models can actually claim the objective) or, if there's no enemy on the objective, deepstrike directly on the objective you need to control.

Coldstar Commanders are kickass late-game objective grabbers, and they're awesome for the rest of the game too. There's a player in ATT running no less than 9 Coldstar Commanders in a single list, and its hilariously effective.

Remoras could make decent objective-grabbers, given their high levels of mobility and the lack of a restriction to 90 degree turns, but the minimum movement may end up forbidding you from using it to claim a nearby objective at all, which could be problematic, and Remoras seem a bit paltry on their contributions in other aspects, so... meh.

Your no-brainer HQ choices ? I'm thinking about having a Cadre Fireblade near some Pulse Rifles FW, and of course Longstrike as my Hammerhead with Railgun. I fail to see the use of Ethereals though, how do you use them ? Could Darkstrider be well used if paired with a full Breacher squad in a Devilfish to drop in the face of the enemy, and pepper them with S6 shots at -1T from Darkstrider ability ? Wounding MEQ on 2+ with troops looks tempting.

A Fireblade is a wonderful thing to have, and has featured in just about every list (I pretty much always have Fire Warriors or Gun Drones in my list to get boosted), as has a Commander. Ethereals are not really a necessity depending on how you construct your list - for the most party, you can make a T'au army that is practically immune to most Morale even without an Ethereal through MSU or choosing particular army choices... but if you start getting into larger infantry squads, the Ethereal's leadership bubble can be a significant boost (particularly if paired with the +1 Ld bubble choice from a Warlord).

Drones in particular are vulnerable to Leadership (only the Kroot have it as bad), so if your list features a lot of Drones (and frankly, it probably should... so much dakka), an Ethereal is worth it for that alone. I've used a backfield Ethereal to good effect (for the leadership, with the Elemental boost as frosting on the cake), and once used a Drone-riding Ethereal to babysit some Gun Drone squads outside of the firebase, since the Ethereal can easily keep up.

Longstrike is good on his own, and makes subsequent Hammerheads not-quite-as-terrible, but he hasn't always made it onto a list (when my list provides for Anti-Tank through other means, like Fusion Commanders, Stormsurges, and Broadsides).

What's your main source of Markelights ? My opponent used two teams of Pathfinders but once they died (and that happens fast) he lost all his Markerlights sources. Is it better to have a few Markerlights spread around your army (with drones and other options) or do you use small packs of Pathfinder too ?

I like to spread my MLs around - one or two ML drones in a large Tactical Drone squad (preferrably near a DC), two or three mimimum-sized pathfinder squads with max Rail Rifles and Ion Rifles (leaving 2 ML Pathfinders per squad), etc.

I used to take Skyrays in 7th for ML, but they seem to be pretty much worthless in 8e, so alas.

I've found that relying on more than the bare minimum for MLs (2 if I'm using Seeker/Destroyer missiles, 1 if not) hasn't really panned out in game, given the firepower you inevitably give up in order to be able to take 5+ ML hits on particular targets while also putting 1 on any other targets worth shooting. Its nice when it happens, but its not reliable enough to count on.

With the exception of the initial Seeker/Destroyer Missile dump, it just hasn't been worth the price (in points and opportunity costs) to reliably get the capstone ML boost.

What's the purpose of the Piranha ? Apart from carrying a Fusion Blaster I don't see their use to be honest.

Not the best unit we have, but somewhat useful (for its speed/durability alone) for objective grabbing and/or tying up an enemy Shooting/Assault unit for a turn or two (The Twin Assault Cannon Razorback is a lot less dangerous when it is forced to Fall Back, and thus prevented from shooting for a turn).

Not the best unit, but it has its place. Most of the time, though, I'd rather have Vespid.

If I read right the only source of Snipers are the Sniper Drones ? they don't look amazing but I'm used to the Arquebus Rangers How do you deal with Characters ? You drop a Crisis in their face and Fusion Blaster them to death (it worked with Shadowsun and my Techpriest) ?

Yep. Sniper Drones suck. Characters are dealt with through Dakka and Positioning (can't screen a character with bubblewrap if the bubblewrap is loosely rendered into its constituent atoms), because relying on Snipers would take either all 6 game turns or too many points (and waaaaaay too many $) to be worth the effort.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my Tau noob questions :p

My pleasure!

Please, above all else, take any given player's advice (my own included) with heaping barrels full of .




Edit:

Use of the Shield Drones ? Protecting Characters by tanking in front of them ? Can't see a use for Fire Warriors at all.

Shield Drones are practically useless compared to Gun Drones - aside from when faced against a stupid opponent (i.e. when your opponent shoots something other than AP0/D1 weapons at your Drone squad), they will NEVER confer as much of a benefit as Gun Drones will. Do not take them, and harshly judge (or pity - depends on your preference when dealing with the mentally handicapped) anyone who does take them.

Fire Warriors are outshone in terms of dakka and durability by Gun Drones, so why would you take them?

Well, they actually have some benefits that Drones do not.

As infantry, Fire Warriors can benefit from Ethereal Invocations and from the Pulse Accelerator Drone. This gives Pulse Rifle strikers an even greater reach, and helps bridge the gap in firepower compared to Gun Drones.

Fire Warriors have the Bonding Knife benefit, and so are less affected by morale tests than Drones (even with an Ethereal nearby).

Fire Warriors can CHOOSE WHO THEY TARGET, and so you won't be FORCED to waste pulse fire on a target that isn't an efficient target for pulse fire, which you might be forced to do if using Gun Drones for dakka due to Threat Identification Protocols.

Finally, Fire Warriors are troops, and that will generally translate into more CP.

As an army, T'au often don't really need a LOT of CP (1 point per turn for rerolls is really all you'd ever use effectively, unless you've got large units without an Ethereal to mitigate leadership issues), but it certainly doesn't hurt, and its best to use only so many kroot.

...So they aren't useless, and they've performed reasonably well as part of a mini firebase in my army. I do generally prefer Gun Drones overall (damn discs nearly compete with Conscripts in the sheer dakka department, even point-for-point), but not to the exclusion of Troops.

 Gamgee wrote:
Big european ETC is in and the Tau ranking was getting curb stomped. Other than them overall ranking really low I can't find out much else about it other than that Team England took the win and deathwing flyer spam list everyone is worried about won there as well. 8th edition is clearly not as balanced as they thought.

Are you referring to ETC singles? The team tournament is a bad judge of codex strength as it depends so much on whether the Tau player was attacking or defending. Also, I concur with the above poster regarding the Tau list in the spreadsheet, far from optimized.

Thanks for all the answers ! I'll be uploading the draft as soon as I complete it, you'll tell me what you think of that.

So, Kroots are effectively nice to distract some heat from your own guys, and hold their own in CC against regular infantry. I forgot about their scout move, it makes them really more interesting that way (I wish our Skitarii would've kept it in 8th too :( ), it allows for moving to a better cover than your deployment zone would allow, while closing up faster on your enemy or objectives. I'll consider about Hounds but they're really expensive money-wise, for a low cost in points. I may have to skip them for that reason. I guess I'll get a box of Kroots, they'll probably see some use and they're not expensive in points after all. They still shoot decently, like bolters, that's some extra dakka. Any thoughts about the Krootox Riders ?

I love the models for the Stealh Suits so I'll have to buy some, plus, having a 2+ in cover is nice to have, and I think their weapons are good, especially with Markerlights (got a 5 man squad in cover wiped out by them in one volley). But their drones can't Infiltrate with them, correct ? So you'll have to wait for the drones to get to your position before buffing them ? Still, their reputation as dakka dealers seems well established.

Vespids looks like a must take in 8th, really nice guns and great mobility, everyone needs some mobility. I'll get a box too.

I'll have to study a bit for the gear configuration on the Crisis suits, I intend on buying two Start Collecting boxes so that'll be 6 suits, I suppose magnetising them in some way could be nice ?

Oh I didn't look up the flyers, I don't like flyers at all in 40K, I don't think they have their place in these games. So I'll pass on the Remora personally.

I'm thinking about a use for the Ethereals, support for a Pathfinder team with Ion and Rail rifles, and a 10 man Pulse Rifle squad, to reroll 1s to Hit and all that supported by the Pulse Accelerator and Grav-inhibitor Drone. Gonna set all of these in a nice ruin of course.

I miswrote my last sentence, I was wondering about the use of Shield Drones in a Fire Warrior squad, not the use of the Fire Warriors I love them and want to build my lists with lots of them.

 The Shrike wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Big european ETC is in and the Tau ranking was getting curb stomped. Other than them overall ranking really low I can't find out much else about it other than that Team England took the win and deathwing flyer spam list everyone is worried about won there as well. 8th edition is clearly not as balanced as they thought.

Are you referring to ETC singles? The team tournament is a bad judge of codex strength as it depends so much on whether the Tau player was attacking or defending. Also, I concur with the above poster regarding the Tau list in the spreadsheet, far from optimized.

This. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/731383.page

You can find more info on their facebook page about round breakdowns and how much of each army made it to the next round ect. Not good looking at all though.

While I agree its sad to see tau continuing to struggle in large tournaments, without knowing list specifics its tough to judge. "Drone Heavy" can mean a lot of things and I don't think what was in that picture looks good.

Drones are good but pure drones are not the answer and that list (granted we can only see what is in that single picture) looks like it needed something to hit harder than S5.

I think we as tau players need to get out of the mindset that we are a purely shooting army. I have had decent success actually charging units and either forcing them to fall back or getting to use the fly keyword to hide in combat and then shoot again. We can't dance around with JSJ but we can dance in and out of combat.

I'll wait until the next big tournament. Tau are going to get creamed, and then the moving goalposts will tell me to wait until the NEXT tournament. Until the sun explodes.

At what point do we NOT have a sizeable sample size? Hundreds and hundreds of games have been played now both casual and in competitive and a clear consensus is the Tau need fixing. That is a fact.The data supports it and it has since 8th leaked games weeks before launch. Now what needs to be established and will take more time is what about them needs fixing?

Anyone who disagrees at this point they don't at the very minimum need some small small buffs (but probably much more) is being wilfully ignorant of the actual tested data.

I'm going to be here in a few weeks and months like clockwork saying the same thing no doubt. If it was any other faction people would be jumping up and down to have them buffed with barely any resistance the proof saying otherwise, but when the Tau are clearly in need no one wants it. It's a ridiculous double standard.

I almost feel like I am arguing why I am playing Tau like I'm on trial for just choosing Tau and my real guilt is playing Tau. I know a lot of frustrated Tau players out there feeling that same resentment.

Y'Vahras
Commanders
Kroot Hounds
Blobs and blobs of Drones and Vespids

Basically the top-tier in Tau right now, in varying combinations.

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm going to try to write a draft list to see if the units I like in the army are playable, but I need a few answers. How are Kroots played now ? Back then they were used with the Sniper rounds to deal some damage but weren't advised in CC, are they know ? They still look feeble, even with a Kroot Shaper. The Hounds however look interesting, with only 4 pts per model and the number of attacks they make (especially with a Shaper nearby to reroll 1s to Wound) at S3 AP-1 they look decent enough for their cost. The problem would be to make the Shaper follow their 12" movement. The Krootox riders have a nice gun too and are not too shabby in CC, what do you make of them ? It seems you need to play your Kroots as a big pack of all their units to support each other and tarpit the enemy. I may be wrong of course.

What do you guys use to reliably secure and hold objectives ? I may be starting to play Maelstrom of War some day so being able to quickly switch the objectives I need to hold is crucial. XV8 I suppose ?

Your no-brainer HQ choices ? I'm thinking about having a Cadre Fireblade near some Pulse Rifles FW, and of course Longstrike as my Hammerhead with Railgun. I fail to see the use of Ethereals though, how do you use them ? Could Darkstrider be well used if paired with a full Breacher squad in a Devilfish to drop in the face of the enemy, and pepper them with S6 shots at -1T from Darkstrider ability ? Wounding MEQ on 2+ with troops looks tempting.

What's your main source of Markelights ? My opponent used two teams of Pathfinders but once they died (and that happens fast) he lost all his Markerlights sources. Is it better to have a few Markerlights spread around your army (with drones and other options) or do you use small packs of Pathfinder too ?

What's the purpose of the Piranha ? Apart from carrying a Fusion Blaster I don't see their use to be honest.

If I read right the only source of Snipers are the Sniper Drones ? they don't look amazing but I'm used to the Arquebus Rangers How do you deal with Characters ? You drop a Crisis in their face and Fusion Blaster them to death (it worked with Shadowsun and my Techpriest) ?

Thanks for taking the time to answer my Tau noob questions :p

EDIT: Use of the Shield Drones ? Protecting Characters by tanking in front of them ? Can't see a use for Fire Warriors at all.

Kroot are like... mid tier
Still not spectacular, but slightly above garbage.
Carnivores are similar to an Ork Boy... with bad leadership, and less attacks.
Hounds are a little better, but they still won't really do a huge amount during combat phases.
Shapers are feel like they were overnerfed, there isn't much reason to bring him.
Krootox are actually pretty great since they cost so little points, but crazy expensive irl...
Krootox Kroot Gun is kinda of like a 24" Missile Pod that has the option of getting 48" range at half effectiveness.
Considering the body only costs 10 points...
Let me phrase this another way...
3 Krootox = 102 points, brings 9 wounds and 3x 24" Missile Pods
Crisis Suit with 3 Missile Pods = 114 points, and only has 3 wounds.

I personally go heavy on the Fire Warriors, so I generally use them to hold backline stuff and they shoot 30" pot shots down range. Deeper ones tends to be Crisis Suit jobs usually.

Monat (Commander) his DPR is absolutely insane, don't be surprised if you see half a dozen Monat's in a list...
Cadre Fireblade is also a fairly solid choice for his low cost, BS2 ML and crazy short range potential he brings to Fire Warriors.
Ethereals lost their best ability (additional shot with Fire), so now their only good support is 6+++ to allies in the area. They are vastly more playable now that they don't give additional penalties for dying.
Aun'shi especially might actually see some table time for the first time ever...

Darkstrider + 5" close to enemies + Devilfish + Full Unit of Breachers...
Literally 250 points to do what... Pop some Tacticals? Altho you will find my advice to be significantly more cynical than many others.

Pathfinder and Cadre Fireblade
Minimal Squads of Pathfinders are optimal, if you want some Dakka you could bring their Rifles, but nothing wrong with a min squad or 2 of Just ML Pathfinders for 40pts a pop.

I mean the Piranha is 12 BS4 S5 Shots for 70 points, That's better than 3 Heavy Bolters on a Land Speeder for cheaper. Even Stealth Suit team pays 90 points for the 12 shots.
So Piranhas are a perfectly acceptable options for an extremely mobile little skimmer.

Sniper Drones are actually like the 3rd best Snipers in the game.
If you ignore how insane Ratlings are, Sniper Drones are one of the best Snipers in the game.
The problem is that even while being one of the Bests... they are still garbage.

So, if you have a character hiding in the middle of an army... Blow up the army, or deep strike in the gaps.
Shield Drones were bad but playable until the FAQ made them complete garbage. Just set a flower on the grave and move on.

Oh, and Drones can Infiltrate/Deep Strike with the unit that brings them.

 Aaranis wrote:
Vespids looks like a must take in 8th, really nice guns and great mobility, everyone needs some mobility. I'll get a box too.

I'll have to study a bit for the gear configuration on the Crisis suits, I intend on buying two Start Collecting boxes so that'll be 6 suits, I suppose magnetising them in some way could be nice ?

Oh I didn't look up the flyers, I don't like flyers at all in 40K, I don't think they have their place in these games. So I'll pass on the Remora personally.

I'm thinking about a use for the Ethereals, support for a Pathfinder team with Ion and Rail rifles, and a 10 man Pulse Rifle squad, to reroll 1s to Hit and all that supported by the Pulse Accelerator and Grav-inhibitor Drone. Gonna set all of these in a nice ruin of course.

I miswrote my last sentence, I was wondering about the use of Shield Drones in a Fire Warrior squad, not the use of the Fire Warriors I love them and want to build my lists with lots of them.

Vespids are great, really really great in 8e
Crisis Suit best loadout is the CIB+ATS
After that Flamers and Fusion Blasters are popular
Plasma Rifles are still viable, but generally fill a similar role to CIB
Finally there is the Missile Pod+ATS which is expensive and slightly inefficient, but rather safe.

Remember Drones don't need to stay with who brought them.
Accelerator Drones don't provide much support for Pathfinders, but are AMAZING for Fire Warriors.
Altho, Drones that are brought together, must stay together...

 Gamgee wrote:
I'll wait until the next big tournament. Tau are going to get creamed, and then the moving goalposts will tell me to wait until the NEXT tournament. Until the sun explodes.

At what point do we NOT have a sizeable sample size? Hundreds and hundreds of games have been played now both casual and in competitive and a clear consensus is the Tau need fixing. That is a fact.The data supports it and it has since 8th leaked games weeks before launch. Now what needs to be established and will take more time is what about them needs fixing?

Anyone who disagrees at this point they don't at the very minimum need some small small buffs (but probably much more) is being wilfully ignorant of the actual tested data.

I'm going to be here in a few weeks and months like clockwork saying the same thing no doubt. If it was any other faction people would be jumping up and down to have them buffed with barely any resistance the proof saying otherwise, but when the Tau are clearly in need no one wants it. It's a ridiculous double standard.

I almost feel like I am arguing why I am playing Tau like I'm on trial for just choosing Tau and my real guilt is playing Tau. I know a lot of frustrated Tau players out there feeling that same resentment.

Oh I know the feeling of resentment quite well. Once had a guy refuse to play me simply because I was playing tau and he "heard" that we were broken. Didn't know anything about me or my list and still refused. Most frustrating and disheartening thing I have ever heard. Tau get a bad rep for some reason we are "unfun" to play against, JSJ was one of the most hated mechanics of 40k even though it was originally part of what gave tau their identity. We were an army that relied on synergy and movement to win not raw stats or huge numbers. But those mechanics have been deemed "bad" and as such we got hit hard with nerfs. Tau can still win games and be on the fringe of competitiveness but at the current rate we won't win tournaments (but we didn't win tournaments in 7th either, no riptide wing does not count as tau.)

They were basically soft banned here for a long time since no one wanted to play them. Well at least we understand each other on that.

I think as the meta solidifies we're going to see the Tau solidify as a low tier race even in casual games. Casual players always have a hard time catching up to the competitive scene for numerous reasons but they usually do at least a little. In theory could chaos marines win last edition (Pre Magnus)? Yes, but in practice it was a lot less common.

Here's hoping we can help people see reason. I think of all three players in this. The public, frontline and the pro playes, and GW that GW has the best bet to step back and rationally look at the actual results for the races and see for themselves that neither side is always correct and that in this case despite the infamy and vitriol the Tau are currently in need of some buffs. I hope we get our codex this year (doubt it since space marine mania) and that when we do we see some sensible buffs. I don't likewise wan't to be too powerful again either. Just the nice Goldilocks zone.

If changes come to Tau at all, they won't be before either the codex or the Chapter Approved book (due to the end of the year) - unless, of course, terrible typos like the AX-1-0 not being able to fire its main guns.

Until there, all we can do is to test, test and do more testing until we find what can deal with whatever the enemy throws at us.
If even after 3-4 months nothing changes much, then yeah we'll be able to have enough data to ask for changes. The game is (officially) 3 weeks old!

What I can agree, though, is that we don't have the feel of 'quality of shooting' we had back in 7e, in comparison to the 'volume of shooting' from Astra Militarum. The new markerlights don't match well with the BS4+. Either should change, but I rather test it even more than ask for it right now

I'd really just like to see marker lights change - they don't have to go back to what they were. Right now they are really just used to allow you to overcharge CIB and ION cannons without fear off too many mortal wounds on your commands/ION heads. Totally skipping out on markerlights isn't a terrible idea if you aren't using those weapon systems but if you are using fire warriros you might as well bring a few units to get some pulse drones out there. If you are taking a few units - you might as well go for the ability to put 5 markers on a target with some consistency. This will at least give you the ability to reposition your heavy weapons for no pentalty AND give you some increased chance of hitting. At least pathfinders perform a few functions instead of just one now and are pretty cheap.

For a markerlight change - I'd be happy if a few of the levels were removed and 3 was the highest level - giving you everything 5 gives you now. That would make it possible to reliably light up 2 targets and focus fire. 5 just seems to be a little extreme.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vector Strike wrote:
If changes come to Tau at all, they won't be before either the codex or the Chapter Approved book (due to the end of the year) - unless, of course, terrible typos like the AX-1-0 not being able to fire its main guns.

Until there, all we can do is to test, test and do more testing until we find what can deal with whatever the enemy throws at us.
If even after 3-4 months nothing changes much, then yeah we'll be able to have enough data to ask for changes. The game is (officially) 3 weeks old!

What I can agree, though, is that we don't have the feel of 'quality of shooting' we had back in 7e, in comparison to the 'volume of shooting' from Astra Militarum. The new markerlights don't match well with the BS4+. Either should change, but I rather test it even more than ask for it right now

Well - true the quality of shooting has gone down minus markerlights increasing BS. Tau have losts of heavy weapon options on bs2+ platforms that are survivable - at least we got that.

In terms of whats good in tau - I don't think the majority of players can actually field an optimized list yet. Tau used to be triptide or bust - since that's busted - it will take time to get the good units painted and assembled.

 Aaranis wrote:
I'm going to try to write a draft list to see if the units I like in the army are playable, but I need a few answers. How are Kroots played now ? Back then they were used with the Sniper rounds to deal some damage but weren't advised in CC, are they know ? They still look feeble, even with a Kroot Shaper. The Hounds however look interesting, with only 4 pts per model and the number of attacks they make (especially with a Shaper nearby to reroll 1s to Wound) at S3 AP-1 they look decent enough for their cost. The problem would be to make the Shaper follow their 12" movement. The Krootox riders have a nice gun too and are not too shabby in CC, what do you make of them ? It seems you need to play your Kroots as a big pack of all their units to support each other and tarpit the enemy. I may be wrong of course.

What do you guys use to reliably secure and hold objectives ? I may be starting to play Maelstrom of War some day so being able to quickly switch the objectives I need to hold is crucial. XV8 I suppose ?

Your no-brainer HQ choices ? I'm thinking about having a Cadre Fireblade near some Pulse Rifles FW, and of course Longstrike as my Hammerhead with Railgun. I fail to see the use of Ethereals though, how do you use them ? Could Darkstrider be well used if paired with a full Breacher squad in a Devilfish to drop in the face of the enemy, and pepper them with S6 shots at -1T from Darkstrider ability ? Wounding MEQ on 2+ with troops looks tempting.

What's your main source of Markelights ? My opponent used two teams of Pathfinders but once they died (and that happens fast) he lost all his Markerlights sources. Is it better to have a few Markerlights spread around your army (with drones and other options) or do you use small packs of Pathfinder too ?

What's the purpose of the Piranha ? Apart from carrying a Fusion Blaster I don't see their use to be honest.

If I read right the only source of Snipers are the Sniper Drones ? they don't look amazing but I'm used to the Arquebus Rangers How do you deal with Characters ? You drop a Crisis in their face and Fusion Blaster them to death (it worked with Shadowsun and my Techpriest) ?

Thanks for taking the time to answer my Tau noob questions :p

EDIT: Use of the Shield Drones ? Protecting Characters by tanking in front of them ? Can't see a use for Fire Warriors at all.

Answered by veteran players, so, I'll take a swing at this one from a wildly different angle ... I've always been a Marine player first and a Tyranid player first, but I took a couple of editions off to do other things and am now on the way back. While I'm looking at updating my bugs, and finally getting around to the Ork army I've had slowly building for decades, I'm now glancing between Eldar and Tau ... and hearing that the Tau are 'bad' is making me look that way harder. What can I say? I like the challenge. The expecrts here know their stuff, but, my brain operates weirdly, so I see a few things that they don't (And don't see many things that they do ... the tactical advice I read keeps being super helpful!) so, here's my view on things which, I fully concede, could be COMPLETELY WRONG, but, that's how I used to play all my armies, so.

Kroot! The basic Kroot I don't care for. I know Termagants and I know Hormagaunts, and brother, these ain't either. The gun's decent, if not as good as a Tau rifle, but the statline is *horrid* ... T3, 1 wound, sv 6+? That's a Termagant, and we pay 4 pts each for a reason. The Stealthy Hunter move is useful to stop deep strike trickery, and at 60 pts for a unit, they're dirt cheap, but keep in mind that you can get a unit of Fire Warriors or Pathfinders for 40 pts who come with better firepower, better Leadership, and a better armor save. Kroot die if you glance at them funny while Fire Warriors can take a shot or two. If they had some kind of stealth rule, like -1 to-be hit, or +1 armor save while in cover, I'd happily use them, but as it stands, they're just a tad falling shy on holding up their end of the deal, IMHO. KrrotOx, in contrast, are lovely things, a fantastic unit at 34 points for a T 5, 3 wound Autocannon-like shot. It can lope into redeployment quickly, but mainly you want to park a trio in cover on turn 1, then plink away at transports. The double-tap at 24" is respectable and gaining a reroll via markerlights really ups their game. Just keep them focused on medium machines, like Rhinos and Dreadnoughts, or medium creatures (Tyranid Warriors or Carnifexi) rather than heavy targets and they're golden. Kroot Hounds, meanwhile, are super effective... remember how I mentioned I know hormagaunts? These are hormagaunts. Quick as a whip, melee-oriented, in-your-face guys with a goodly number of attacks who will die, and die in droves, these guys are an ace unit to cut through enemy lines and tie up all kinds of gunsquads. Oh, they're gonna die, and die HARD, but they'll give you a round or two of chewing before they go and at 48 points for a full unit, you can stack 'em all *day*. The financial burden will break you tho. They need to churn out a KrootHound plastic set before you can really dig in, here. (Important note! The reroll charges on a wounded unit? This is one of the combined arms things that they're pushing heavily this edition and where Tau excel. Move in with hounds, light up with Fire Warriors, send the hounds in on what's left.)

Reliably take and hold objectives is hard. The best unit for that are Crisis suits, IMHO, who have the toughness, armor, and wounds to get stuck in and live, but who are quite expensive. Stealth Suits are a bit more fragile but harder to hit and a fraction of the cost, so are what I'll be using to occupy areas, I think, but keep in mind that they can't *clear* an area, so need help, where Crisis Suits can do both. Breachers are the best at *taking* an objective but can't *hold* it... those guns are nearly melee weapons and standard anti-trooper firepower will shred them too quickly. Again, you might be looking at a combined arms approach, where Breachers in a Devilfish roll in and clear out the enemy in one turn, then the next they load back up and scoot towards a new target while Stealth Suits (who are astoundingly fast!) woosh over to hold the now-empty area. The other option is to use plain ol' fire Warriors in a Devilfish, who have plenty of firepower to bristle out and a large unit, if in cover, can survive for a while, but they can only do flank or rear objectives, not central or hostile. I keep looking for a Dreadnought-ish weapon in the Tau arsenal and a Broadside almost fits the bill, but lacks the melee strength you need to really grind it out. That said, one with High Yield Missile Pods and two Smart Missile Systems is holy Hell on a dug-in unit to force them out of an objective. Just too slow and vulnerable to melee combat (The suit that don't fly!) to press the advantage. I'll keep hunting for this one.

HQ choices, since I plan on using a LOT of Fire Warrios, is certainly 1-3 Fireblades, each being dirt-cheap and able to assist the Warrior baseline, with larger games sporting a Commander for mobile work. I know I should be on the "Spam fusion commanders!" train, but it doesn't sit right with me for several reasons, The Ethereal is one I want to try out... fragile and vulnerable, doesn't directly contribute to a fight, but the bubbles he has are versatile and cover several units ... combine with a Fireblade, you can have 24 Fire Warriors triple-tapping and rerolling 1's, for instance, and that gets scary fast. Sense of Stone also looks useful for when you have to deal with a hot house, so an Ethereal who can move in behind a unit (of, say, Stealth Suits!) at an objective and help hold the line, both passing out a better Leadership and staving off wounds? Anything that keeps more guns standing is a good thing, IMHO. Seems like they're only to be used in 2000 pt battles to me, since they're supposed to be rare (Like, one per cadre rare!) but, I could be wrong.

Markerlights are a touchy subject around here, it seems. Lets take a look at what the chart gives you right quick:

1 light = Reroll to-hit rolls of 1 for Tau units attacking this unit this turn. Note that this is to-hit blank, not to-hit shooting. If you need to melee with your suits, light up the target first. With a 4+ to-hit , you get 3 hits, 2 misses, and a "Try again!" which has a 50-50 chance. Not as good as a +1 to-hit, but half that. Normally, 12 shots is 6 hits, with a marker light, it's 7. Not huge, but handy.

2 lights = Better missiles. Not a big deal.

3 lights = avoiding the to-hit penalty for assault with assault weapons or moving with heavy weapons. Situationally useful but not what I'd build a force around. Good option if you need to redeploy often or if you love you some Hammerheads.

4 lights = Ignore cover ... cover is much more rare in this edition and it cam make a difference, Use this to root a unit out of hiding near an objective or to erase a long-range unit (Devastators!) who are hiding somewhere out back.

5 lights = The money shot.

With this in mind, IMHO, you're better served sharing the lights instead of focusing them, and something like 6-8 per thousand points clicks in my head as the way to go. This lets you dink away 3 units a turn, if you can't combine firepower on a target, or pour it on to 1 unit that needs to *die*. Target transports early, then switch to threatening units afterwards, with turns 4+ probably being focus-fire at units on objectives. In addition to the Fireblades I'll be using (who each carry one), one Pathfinder units of 6 per thousand points looks good. Keep them back behind the main line (they have 36" range after all!) so that they don't fall over with that poor armor save (and go in cover if possible!) and either split fire, sticking 2 each on three targets, or focusing 3-4 (with the Fireblade) when you need mass firepower on one target. They're dirt cheap units that are annoying but protected. As a bonus, the keep bad guys from dropping within 9" of them, a big, big issue this edition. Several small units of guys, even just 6 Firewarriors footslogging it, scattered around for safety goes far and filling up larger numbers of units is a *reward*, not a penalty these days. (Aside from kill point missions. Those are gonna hurt.) ... forcing bad guys to stay 18" away from your juicy targets is huge, and if you can make them drop in the open, rather than in cover, with good placement, you can turn and erase them afterwards.

The Piranha has traditionally been used like similar units in other armies... stick a Melta on it, fly up, kill something (don't roll a '1'!) and then die, messily. This is the established wisdom of the Grand Tournaments and has never been questioned. So, of course, I do it wrong. Three of 'em (brought alone, not in a unit, because, again, filling slots is your friend!) each with a burst cannon per thousand points is just the best of things. These aren't line breakers or character-killers ... these are bullies. Their job is simple ... take the flanks, find small infantry units, and punish them badly. 12 shots at 4+, Strength 5, AP 0 is about the same as 12 Fire Warriors for around the same cost as 8, but with a tad less wounds and a much higher Toughness. They can withstand small arms fire, or survive *one* anti-tank hit, while shoving wimpy units around. They can charge into melee and won't *do* anything but the other unit won't be shooting for a round and, if needed, you can just fly off on your turn and do it again. Since you can take one anti-tank hit if needed (Overwatch to-hit at a 6, wound on a 3+, but unlikely to do 6 wounds in one hit), they can even harass tanks, keeping them from firing (Hello, Mr. Land Raider!), darting away in your movement phase, letting you shoot the target in the shooting, then charge into them again with a different unit because you brought three and you're a bully. Piranha are also surprisingly fat units and, of note, is that you can't move within an inch of a model, and enemy models block LoS. Use those wide wingspans to choke up fire lanes, putting yourbetter mobility and concentrated firepower on display while half the enemy force is reduced to shooting at little fish. These guys are the unsung heroes of the Codex but you have to keep in mind that while they're tougher than infantry, they're not as hard as tanks. They're not fatties, they're chubbies. Don't ask them to suck up too much pain but find weak little units and go pick on them until they run home and call the Emperor for how mean you were. Just all kinds of versatile and useful. Again, all Burst Cannons, because I am weird, and, again, note that markerlights let you reroll 1's in melee if you need to charge. (And with these, Stealth Suits, and Crisis suits, you may be charging a lot more than you think!)

Oh hey, here's you a fun trick. When one of your units is in melee, the enemy is going to want to charge it because Tau suck in melee. Thanks to the Greater Good, nearby units can fire into those new charges. So, if a Stealth unit has ganged p on a Tactical Squad, and anther comes to help, feel free to have your nearby units melt that second squad before they pick on the 'wimpy Tau' ... also remember that a model armed with a pistol *can* shoot while in melee during its shooting phase. You don't have many, but every single Shas'ui leading a unit of Fire Warriors can take one (at a cost of 0!) so you might as well. Sure, a single Str 5 shot isn't likely to turn the tide of battle, but it can't hurt and, again, it's free A unit *not* in combat can also fire pistols *into* a melee combat, so feel free to help your brothers out by peppering a couple shots into a scrum. It's for the greater good, after all.

Lastly, the Sunshark Bomber. You didn't mention it and it doesn't come up often while talking about the good units, but, I want to mention the thing because, woo buddy, is it sexy. At 169 points it'll bend your budget, and the raw firepower doesn't look like much, but it has one trick that doctors don't want you to know ab... sorry, glitched for a second there. The Pulse Bomb. The Bomb works as well if you have 1 wound left or 12, since it doesn't use a ballistic skill, but instead has a flat 5+ per MODEL, or 4+ against infantry, ignoring all modifiers. Make the roll, inflict a mortal wound. That's no tohit roll, no wounding roll, no saving throw, no invulnerable save, just unh! eat it. Tops out at 10 models in a unit but this means that, in the movement phase, it can reduce any normal infantry unit from 10 models to 5 and that's gonna be a rough morale test right off the bat. Eldar unit under Conceal and ith their own -1 to-hit on top of that? Bomb it, half gone. Unit of Assault Marines with flamers sitting on an objective? Bomb it, half gone. Big fat unit of Ork Lootas or Mek Guns? Bomb it, half gone, and morale'll take the rest. They're infantry-erasing MACHINES but they're fragile against anti-tank weaponry and about useless if shooting at vehicles themselves, but, oh mama, knocking out half a squad in the movement phase is all kinds of sexy and leaves you with all kinds of followup options.

Lastly, don't be afraid to try new approache. Charge with your suits, use markerlights in small numbers, embrace the combined arms thought process, and always remember that filling up your slots just means you can get more Command Points and Command Points are your friend. At a thousand, you should never have less than 7 (And 9 is within reach!) while two thousand should always see you at 12.

Great-er GOOD! Great-er GOOD! Great-er GOOD!

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

There is also no valid reason why they would have changed the wording for Longstrike's ability through errata EXCEPT to allow Longstrike to benefit from his own special rule. It being extraneous is not enough, since it would be unnecessary to modify for the game to play as GW wants it to play. I have a hard time believing that we're supposed to believe that GW is so obsessed over making sure their language is efficient that they'll take the time, effort, and space to correct language that doesn't actually need to be corrected - if they're bothering to make an Errata for it, they're doing so to clarify the meaning (not needed here) or to change the meaning (only applicable here if Longstrike was meant to affect himself).

Since I have yet to see any formal acknowledgement of a keyword system separate from the Keyword system we have in place in 8th, and so your proposal (while possibly valid, as explained) has no actual evidentiary support within WH40k, I'm going to lean on the side of RAI on this one, and I have a feeling that's going to be the case for just about all T'au players and Tournaments.

Your argument reminds me of me in 4th edition, when technically the Multitracker didn't allow a battlesuit to fire a twin-linked weapon and another weapon (twin-linked or not) due to the Multi-tracker only allowing models to fire two Weapon Systems, rather than two weapons... Regardless of how technically correct I was, no T'au player actually played it RAW because the RAI was so clear.

I think the same is the case here, particularly given that GW bothered to errata Longstrike's wording in a way that would only make sense if it was intended to grant Longstrike the ability to benefit from it.

In other words: Bolded and/or Capitalized or not, it seems blatantly clear that the keyword is intended as a keyword, and Longstrike has the right keyword to benefit.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

The technical problem with the errata, which Mirny is having a blast pointing out on every forum I see him frequent (but which, as mentioned, almost certainly will fail to convince anyone to play as may be technically required), is that Longstrike's benefit is limited to <Sept> TX7 Hammerhead Gunships, with the <Sept> formatted as a Keyword (bolded, all capital letters) but the TX7 Hammerhead Gunship without the keyword formatting.z

Longstrike is a Keyword TX7 Hammerhead Gunship, but is not technically titled as a TX7 Hammerhead Gunship (even though he rides a TX7 Hammerhead Gunship and has the Keyword indicating he's a TX7 Hammerhead Gunship).

Supposedly (no personal knowledge one way or the other), Age of Sigmar distinguishes between these two keyword systems, so its actually possible that he's got the RAW and the RAI of it.

I consider that a dubious possibility based on the very errata you mentioned and its superfluous nature IF Mirny is correct... but that is, I believe, an accurate explanation for why this isn't as blatantly obvious as 99.9999% of T'au players have played it post-errata.

The reason for the change are rules from other factions. Before the errata Tyranidplayer could argue that the Old One Eye buffs himself because he have no "other" in the rule text like our Longstrike. Now they changed it and Tau player start to argue.

I don't get it. The keyword system is so clear. If it is a Keyword it is bold and CAPS. There are 7 Keywords in Longstrikes ability rules. All bold and CAPS. They changed the rule but even with this new attention for the rule, they don't change it to TX7 HAMMERHEAD GUNSHIPS. I can't understand why someone can believe it is meant to be a keyword. They looked at it again! So RAI and RAW he don't buff himself.

Things do look bad at this early-ish point. We're still pre-codex just working on the indexes of course, but GW does have form at making armies terribad. Consider DE in 7th. There's no reason to assume that the game will be balanced, or that imbalances will be fixed.

I'm annoyed to see GW sticking with a codex format. The approach in AoS, with an annually-published book of points values, is clearly better. They really ought to have switched to electronic rules 10 years ago and I can see no argument for the current system. That's before you start to consider the huge cost of buying all the damn books.

On the question of quality firepower vs quantity, the problem is that we have neither. A railgun is just a fancy lascannon that costs 50% more. A heavy rail rifle is a bad twin-linked lascannon for 25% more points. Imperial armies get to spam these guns all over the place - on elites, on troops, on planes and on dedicated transports. Tau only get them on a few over-priced heavy support choices, carrying one or two guns instead of three or four. And they aren't even as accurate as the imperial ones.

A quality gun is a volcano cannon. Quantity comes with predators or AC razorbacks. Though to be fair, it's not as if railguns were any good in the last couple of editions either. I've got 3 railgun hammerheads that date back to 3rd edition, when they used to have a nice time instant killing daemon princes. They are dusty.

I remember a few editions ago when Kroot had a Save of - and were the best troop choice in the Tau Codex.

One thing is clear right now. If your xenos your having trouble in tournaments. It's basically a million flavors of marines/IoM vs Chaos.

I kind of think they orchestrated this on purpose. No warzones in the core book about xenos vs IoM or even Xenos vs Chaos. No real new lore for any of them either.

Vague rumours we might get stuff next year at some point.

Almost universally bad xenos rules across the board.

GW themselves saying this year focus is on IoM vs Chaos. Didn't they also say the edition as well?

No xenos allowed in their narrative global campaign.

Does anyone else feel they are slowly trying to SoB the whole xenos range out so they can have 30k mk2?

If your a xenos player of any kind except perhaps Eldar I would be very stingy buying stuff for xenos until we have a more clear idea of what GW is going to do with the red headed step child.

 Gamgee wrote:
One thing is clear right now. If your xenos your having trouble in tournaments. It's basically a million flavors of marines/IoM vs Chaos.

I kind of think they orchestrated this on purpose. No warzones in the core book about xenos vs IoM or even Xenos vs Chaos. No real new lore for any of them either.

Vague rumours we might get stuff next year at some point.

Almost universally bad xenos rules across the board.

GW themselves saying this year focus is on IoM vs Chaos. Didn't they also say the edition as well?

No xenos allowed in their narrative global campaign.

Does anyone else feel they are slowly trying to SoB the whole xenos range out so they can have 30k mk2?

If your a xenos player of any kind except perhaps Eldar I would be very stingy buying stuff for xenos until we have a more clear idea of what GW is going to do with the red headed step child.

Please remove your Tin hat. Dark Eldar are in a good palce, maybe top tier. Harliquins are in a great place. Necrons, another good book. Orks and Tyrinids, people are saying good things, I 'm siding on good. so what are their 2? midtier to bad Xenos races? Definitely not Tin hat time.

Yeah I guess your right that's a little off the walls even for me.

Ugh, enough of the Tau doom and gloom. Internal balance is poor, but they can definitely put down a nasty list. They are still the most effective army I've seen on the table in 8th. Monats, drones, triple flamers and a gunline supported by Kroot is very solid.

The adjustment to 8th is obviously still happening. SM are going to do better because they are the easiest army to play, hardly any "bad" units, and most of them are multi purpose. Every other army I've tried (CE, DE, Nids, Orks, Tau, even IG) struggle with poor units and niche units. Finding a way to make niche units shine is part of the fun - otherwise we'd all play Marines.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

I think its safe to say that Deepstriking within 12" is a very powerful tool for a very large portion of WH40k's armies (namely, the Imperium and Chaos, with their 12" meltaguns and mostly 24" plasmaguns), but that not all enemies deepstrike or need to deepstrike within 12" to be effective (Tau Commanders with 4 CIBs, for example, needs only get within 18" of the target).

Never having used EWO does not really suggest EWO wasn't meaningful, and I wonder if you explicitly asked the opponent if they deepstruck without factoring EWO in. Even if they did not, would they have been willing to deepstrike within EWO range had you positioned the EWO better?

Well I did get to use EWO last night but it was still completely ineffective. None of my opponents care about EWO. Last night nids didn’t even ask they just deep striked, disembarked, advanced and charged my broadsides with EWO without a care about EWO which yet again was ineffective.

As for the EWO on bigger suits I cannot comment. Mostly we are still playing small games 750pts to 1000pts and I haven’t had chance yet to test out the larger suits. But it’s worth thinking about EWO on them.

Could I confirm EWO triggers on units that disembark from transports? disembark from transports is listed as an ability and is a unit being setup mid game. Is that right? Personally I have given up on broadsides for now in favour of fusion. Although I will have to try them again, at some point.

 Talamare wrote:
“Also I'm going to assume you wrote ATS + Double Flamer
If it was Triple Flamer I'm going to assume you either cheated or used Monat for Flamers which sounds like a Sin in my book.”

I can see the misunderstanding. (full sized stealth team with ATS) + (triple flamer deep strike suits). I should have put a , before to make it more clear.
No ATS on fusion Stealth Suits. Crisis suits without support systems and I didn’t mention it before but I did have drones with the Crisis. There was also a commander with drones and a bomber with 2 drones but that doesn't really matter for this. No need for a full battle report I was just saying the flamers deeps strike backed up with fusion was extremely effective against the walkers. Back in my deployment was some useless snipers which I wont be using again unless the full codex changes them.

You are focused too much on mathhammer and not what counts. It was not terrible value as I effectively won the game by end of turn 2 although the other player kindly played on. My total loss was 1 suit, 6 drones, 1 fire warrior and wiped out the Orks. If I had gone on pure math hammer and taken other builds I would have done far more poorly that game.

It was a devastating combo against the walkers and triple Plasma Crisis isn’t always better. Right off the bat half the shots miss even on a perfect dice roll that’s 18 wounds max quite a few would have been saved by the 5+ invl the walker squads had. The triple flamer suits can with a good dice roll do far more than 18 wounds and what matters more is when the walkers charge into CC the triple flamer suits kill them while the plasma is lucky to even hit. The walkers where in a no win situation shooting all they could do was kill a few drones before being blown-up themselves. Charging into CC just meant they got killed before making it into CC. Well 2 got killed and 1 made it though killed a suit then I jumped back and finished them off with flamers.

Flamers where far more effective then plasma would have been in that situation.

Mathhammer says 3 stealth suits with DC and drones do more damage but there is more than just math to factor in. 6 stealth suits and 2 drones can blow up a key enemy target on turn 1 before those 3 suits + DC with mass drones have even got into fire range. Mathhammer is useful as a guideline but we need to be careful not to over focus to much on mathhammer and say X is better than B just because maths say it does more wounds. Most of the time I would take full size Stealth team over a small squad with drones.

 Gamgee wrote:


Does anyone else feel they are slowly trying to SoB the whole xenos range out so they can have 30k mk2?

Err...no? GW has outright neglected Chaos and Imperial Guard for so long it's refreshing that they get some attention, and GW has always given Space Marines way too much attention.

I wouldn't focus too much on the win/loss ratios of armies. That's incomplete data. What are Tau winning against? What are Tau losing against? What's the composition of the winning armies, and the losing ones? Too many moving parts to really tell what's going on. Back in 5th I had a really strong Death Guard army, but at a Battle Bunker tournament I was forced to cross an open table against a Sisters gunline.

WAAC Tournament Tau players all had Riptide Wing spam and if they brought that to the new edition, they'll lose. The army has changed and people need to find their feet. Soon enough people will roll out their all Vespid armies and things will turn around.

I have never thought GW writes bad rules on purpose. Why on earth would they do that?

The problem is that they do write bad rules. It ends up in the situation that some units in every codex are used and most are not. So now we need loads of drones and commanders, where before we needed loads of riptides. Hardly any of my old models are all that useful, and it's irritating.

I know it's the normal thing whenever there's a new codex or edition. Some stuff becomes useless and other stuff becomes amazing. I'm just tired of it.

Anyway back to actual tactics instead of whining. Someone mentioned above that darkstrider's ability to lower a unit's toughness isn't much good. I tend to agree that it's not enough on its own, but he brings other stuff too. It really helps to let units fall back out of combat and still shoot, and he does bring a markerlight. Not bad on the whole. Making the breachers wound on a 2+ is certainly no bad thing either. He can also use his trick on tough things, say bringing a tank's toughness down to 6 so it can be wounded on a 4+.