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Made in ca
Trustworthy Shas'vre




DFW area Texas - Rarely

Wow, the air here is a bit...'woe is me".

Its all doom and gloom and "we are so bad" and "we need a new codex".

Well, it ain't that bad.

Did we get an over-nerf? Yes.
Is it that bad? No.

Will there always be a list out there with someone spamming six of the most efficient units? (like the stormraven list?) yes.
Of course, if you spam 8 commanders are you any better than "that guy"? (hint: you are then that guy).

Go check out this thread on Advanced Tau Tactica (those guys know tau pretty well) - its all "wow, we are kicking ass!".
http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=25841

Yeah, they admit there are nerfs , and they do some math - but its not about finding the most "hyper efficient unit" in every slot.
its about an overall balanced list that can cover a lot of bases, and has decent units.

Just finished another game last night - tau vs. necrons, about 2000 points. Very close game.

A few observations:
Pathfinders with rail rifles are amazing. In multiple games they have proven their "worth".

The ghost keel, while not having great damage output for his points is amazingly survivable - and can really cause fixation in your opponent. Combined with his good movement rate this enables to be a decent short ranged objective holder.

The sunshark continues to do well. The bomb is nice, and the other weapons while not overwhelming are good for finishing off squads or getting some extra wounds in on characters.

Longstrike and friends is amazing - yes, and get the smart missiles. Yes, I know math hammer they are not as good. However, when you need to kill the guy 27" away on an objective and he is out of line of sight - smart missiles for the win.

Piranha - still good. Yep, can hold an objective, can move, can split drones etc.

Sniper drones - still feel not very useful - however, after playing snipers in other armies - overall I think the problem is that we have too high expectations for them. Their marksmen needs to be able to put a markerlight on a character. This is design omission I feel.

Necrons - always finish off a unit. always. also, they are very slow.

Coldstar - yes, he is good. But his movement (including his 40" advance move) are his best assets. No, he is not as "efficient" as a fusion commander. That is wrong thinking - different role different job. A fusion commander (which I use) will never move 36 inches and then finish off a unit and take an objective (coldstar can still hit on 3's after an advance).

Vespid - yes, good. No, they will not hold up as well as models with better saves - but they hold up against casual effort to remove them. Excellent for killing stuff, and for grabbing objectives.

Some of the new missions have interesting nuances to them - I suggest everyone play as many different types of games as possible.

The new books actually are fairly good - while yes, some units are not as good (the riptide was over nerfed) but the "most of my models are useles" is just plain wrong. I played tau and nids in 5th, trust me, I know about useless models.
We are seeing a lot of variety in good tau lists - this is an excellent thing. Some are successful with fish and breahers, some with lots of drones, others are working the ghostkeel - some leverage commanders and drone ports.

Pay attention to the math - but don't let it rule your game. Tactics and clever play rule the day.


DavePak
"Remember, in life, the only thing you absolutely control is your own attitude - do not squander that power."
Fully Painted armies:
TAU: 10k Nids: 9600 Marines: 4000 Crons: 7600
Actor, Gamer, Comic, Corporate Nerd
 
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

Thanks everyone for the data and the tips, they're really nice to have. I'll wait for the codex before buying anything from Tau, I still have to buy a few models for my beloved AdMech and I'm curious to see how they'll flesh out the T'au in their codex, especially with new stratagems and Sept specific rules.

Mandragola wrote:

Anyway back to actual tactics instead of whining. Someone mentioned above that darkstrider's ability to lower a unit's toughness isn't much good. I tend to agree that it's not enough on its own, but he brings other stuff too. It really helps to let units fall back out of combat and still shoot, and he does bring a markerlight. Not bad on the whole. Making the breachers wound on a 2+ is certainly no bad thing either. He can also use his trick on tough things, say bringing a tank's toughness down to 6 so it can be wounded on a 4+.


Hey I completely skipped over the Fighting Retreat ability, that's one more reason to bring him alongside a full Breacher team with two gun drones + 2 gun drones from the Devilfish. Using all this to kill a Tac squad ? Certainly not, if you're close enough you can shoot a Leman Russ equivalent to death thanks to Darkstrider. He looks good paired with a Pathfinder Ion/Rail rifle team too, and an Ethereal to reroll the 1s to Hit. It's definitely an interesting HQ, and he looks easy enough to convert.

What's a monat exactly ? A commander in XV8 or XV86 that goes alone wrecking stuff up ? I saw that Crisis teams are well, teams, so I conclude it's got to be a Commander.

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in ca
Trustworthy Shas'vre




DFW area Texas - Rarely

 Aaranis wrote:
Thanks everyone for the data and the tips, they're really nice to have. I'll wait for the codex before buying anything from Tau, I still have to buy a few models for my beloved AdMech and I'm curious to see how they'll flesh out the T'au in their codex, especially with new stratagems and Sept specific rules.

Mandragola wrote:

Anyway back to actual tactics instead of whining. Someone mentioned above that darkstrider's ability to lower a unit's toughness isn't much good. I tend to agree that it's not enough on its own, but he brings other stuff too. It really helps to let units fall back out of combat and still shoot, and he does bring a markerlight. Not bad on the whole. Making the breachers wound on a 2+ is certainly no bad thing either. He can also use his trick on tough things, say bringing a tank's toughness down to 6 so it can be wounded on a 4+.


Hey I completely skipped over the Fighting Retreat ability, that's one more reason to bring him alongside a full Breacher team with two gun drones + 2 gun drones from the Devilfish. Using all this to kill a Tac squad ? Certainly not, if you're close enough you can shoot a Leman Russ equivalent to death thanks to Darkstrider. He looks good paired with a Pathfinder Ion/Rail rifle team too, and an Ethereal to reroll the 1s to Hit. It's definitely an interesting HQ, and he looks easy enough to convert.

What's a monat exactly ? A commander in XV8 or XV86 that goes alone wrecking stuff up ? I saw that Crisis teams are well, teams, so I conclude it's got to be a Commander.


You don't need to wait for the codex. Tau are strong RIGHT NOW. Are we easy mode strong? No, and some people forget that - or they go 'used' to tau when they were OP.
http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=25841

I desperately want Jump shoot jump back, but tau are doing fine. You seem to have a knack at asking good questions and absorbing information -
Find a good tau player in your area, and play against them. You will do well with the tau. enjoy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/08 17:24:08


DavePak
"Remember, in life, the only thing you absolutely control is your own attitude - do not squander that power."
Fully Painted armies:
TAU: 10k Nids: 9600 Marines: 4000 Crons: 7600
Actor, Gamer, Comic, Corporate Nerd
 
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





Across the Great Divide

davethepak wrote:
Wow, the air here is a bit...'woe is me".

Its all doom and gloom and "we are so bad" and "we need a new codex".

Well, it ain't that bad.

Did we get an over-nerf? Yes.
Is it that bad? No.

Will there always be a list out there with someone spamming six of the most efficient units? (like the stormraven list?) yes.
Of course, if you spam 8 commanders are you any better than "that guy"? (hint: you are then that guy).

Go check out this thread on Advanced Tau Tactica (those guys know tau pretty well) - its all "wow, we are kicking ass!".
http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=25841

Yeah, they admit there are nerfs , and they do some math - but its not about finding the most "hyper efficient unit" in every slot.
its about an overall balanced list that can cover a lot of bases, and has decent units.

Just finished another game last night - tau vs. necrons, about 2000 points. Very close game.

A few observations:
Pathfinders with rail rifles are amazing. In multiple games they have proven their "worth".

The ghost keel, while not having great damage output for his points is amazingly survivable - and can really cause fixation in your opponent. Combined with his good movement rate this enables to be a decent short ranged objective holder.

The sunshark continues to do well. The bomb is nice, and the other weapons while not overwhelming are good for finishing off squads or getting some extra wounds in on characters.

Longstrike and friends is amazing - yes, and get the smart missiles. Yes, I know math hammer they are not as good. However, when you need to kill the guy 27" away on an objective and he is out of line of sight - smart missiles for the win.

Piranha - still good. Yep, can hold an objective, can move, can split drones etc.

Sniper drones - still feel not very useful - however, after playing snipers in other armies - overall I think the problem is that we have too high expectations for them. Their marksmen needs to be able to put a markerlight on a character. This is design omission I feel.

Necrons - always finish off a unit. always. also, they are very slow.

Coldstar - yes, he is good. But his movement (including his 40" advance move) are his best assets. No, he is not as "efficient" as a fusion commander. That is wrong thinking - different role different job. A fusion commander (which I use) will never move 36 inches and then finish off a unit and take an objective (coldstar can still hit on 3's after an advance).

Vespid - yes, good. No, they will not hold up as well as models with better saves - but they hold up against casual effort to remove them. Excellent for killing stuff, and for grabbing objectives.

Some of the new missions have interesting nuances to them - I suggest everyone play as many different types of games as possible.

The new books actually are fairly good - while yes, some units are not as good (the riptide was over nerfed) but the "most of my models are useles" is just plain wrong. I played tau and nids in 5th, trust me, I know about useless models.
We are seeing a lot of variety in good tau lists - this is an excellent thing. Some are successful with fish and breahers, some with lots of drones, others are working the ghostkeel - some leverage commanders and drone ports.

Pay attention to the math - but don't let it rule your game. Tactics and clever play rule the day.



Agreed, we are not as good as before but we are not as bad as chaos in 7th.

On your unit points I agree. I think ghostkeels are gems here. They are not as killy but they stick around and maintain board pressure and have the movement to be where they need to be. Along with stealthsuits the infiltrate delployment is great allows you to threaten things turn 1 and be aggressive from unexpected angles.

I'll be honest I have given sniper drones much thought (even though I have 9 of them). I realize the power of characters but I have been focusing more on just killing the priority units and not the buffers. I'd love to hear someone having success with them though.

I think the coldstar is the best objective grabber and trouble shooter we have. The 40" move is insane and he only gets -1 to hit for it too! He can be pretty much anywhere on the board we need him to be and dealing damage and causing trouble.

I wish I had vespids to test out, the movement and decent damage seem great. I have been using breachers in fishes to great effect. Tau need to control the midfield imo not sit back in a gunline. Breachers in a fish and amazing for blowing units away and Darkstrider is a natural add in to this unit and adds a touch combat survivability.

We need to play strategic. We can still have the focused fire to kill key targets each turn and win through positioning and target priority. Our suits and vehicles have the survivability to last and finish games

Forest hunter sept ~3500
guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet

DA:90S+G++M++B--I+PW40k07+D++A++/areWD-R++T(T)DM+ 
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

davethepak wrote:

You don't need to wait for the codex. Tau are strong RIGHT NOW. Are we easy mode strong? No, and some people forget that - or they go 'used' to tau when they were OP.
http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=25841

I desperately want Jump shoot jump back, but tau are doing fine. You seem to have a knack at asking good questions and absorbing information -
Find a good tau player in your area, and play against them. You will do well with the tau. enjoy.


It's good that Tau needs thinking to play I think, back in 7th I was afraid of starting 40K again because of the reputation of the Tau army. Now, some people will start Tau in my LGS and so I'll have more occasions to fight them and see what's their strong points and weaknesses. So far I had one game at 1000 pts, AdMech vs T'au, and I won but it was intense in the start of the battle, but I claimed control rather quickly when I destroyed his Ghostkeel, his Pathfinders and the Broadside, he didn't have enough units to do serious damage to me so I won at objectives. I don't think his list was really good though.

Apparently he destroyed another player at a 2000 pts game but his opponent is still a beginner and has much to learn, and people told me about the power of Drones-heavy lists. I'd like to avoid the Drone spam because I prefer the Fire Warriors but I'll still have some of course.

I'm talking about waiting for the Codex to have the time to finish my AdMech and the army of my wife, it's a timer until I can start another army actually And this way I can avoid surprises if there's too much changes. I'd love to know about Sept specific rules to know how I'll paint mine too.

Well I love shooting armies, but AdMech is a tad too much orientated on heavy artillery right now, and I dislike the fact that we're strongly encouraged at picking options there and there from all over the Imperium to have functional lists, I'd rather have an almost pure AdMech army but our lack of Transports and the loss of the Scout moves pretty much kills us. Still love playing my army though ! T'au have the same amount of thinking required to make your game go nicely, but I love the aesthetics, the fluff and the mobility they have access to. And Railguns of course.

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





Pottsey wrote:

Well I did get to use EWO last night but it was still completely ineffective. None of my opponents care about EWO. Last night nids didn’t even ask they just deep striked, disembarked, advanced and charged my broadsides with EWO without a care about EWO which yet again was ineffective.


I may be a bit confused at this point: Were the Nids deepstriking within 12" of your EWO Broadside, and it whiffed... or did Nids deepstrike outside of 12" (or at least outside of 12" of your EWO broadside) then either charge, or use the psyker power to move in the shooting phase then charge? What was the charge distance the Nids had to make?

But you said you got to use EWO, so presumably the Broadside WAS allowed to fire and... it did nothing? It did little? It did statistically average numbers of wounds, but you were expecting more? It didn't wipe out the entire deepstriking enemy in a single volley of dakka? It didn't wipe out the entire enemy force with a single dice roll?

What is your Broadside equipped with, weapon-wise? What is your opponent Deepstriking in, and is it particularly vulnerable or durable against your Broadside's chosen weaponry?

What would a sub-10-point piece of wargear have to do for it to be "effective" in your opinion
?

But ultimately Nids may be the problem rather than the EWO, since they have unique solutions to avoid the EWO that most other armies simply lack. For most...

1. Deepstriking is almost always done at >9". The only exceptions I'm aware of are GSC (you said Nids... did you mean to include GSC?) and T'au Homing Beacons.

2. Setting up models that auto-disembark after Deepstrike must also be done at >9".

Those two provide the baseline: You need to get more than 9" on the charge (9 on the dice +1" bubble) to succeed, for both the Deepstriking transport and anything disembarking from it. That happens quite rarely (somewhere around ~25-30%, or just under 50% if you can reroll charges).

3. You may not move after you arrive by Deepstrike.

4. Advancing happens during the Movement phase and can only performed as part of a move action.

Taken together, you realize that unless you're given explicit permission to do so (basically only GSC when they get certain Cult Ambush results, or when a model is allowed to move in the shooting phase), the models deepstriking are always going to need to roll at least a 9 on their charge, which will fail even for the dedicated chargers most of the time.

That's the benefit EWO brings if the opponent decides against deepstriking near enough to trigger it - forced decrease in the chance to assault.

But EWO is only a few points, and even on a potent platform, it ISN'T GOING TO WIN THE GAME FOR YOU. Even a Stormsurge could whiff on all its attacks, and that isn't the fault of the EWO that that stormsurge was ineffective - it just didn't have as much effectiveness as the average (dice are dice).

It also isn't going to be equally effective against all armies - with Synapse, Tyranids have a unique way to effectively ignore the restriction that EWO provides (... albeit at the cost of a Psyker power you can use once per turn that could have been used to help a different, non-Deepstrike unit get into combat) - but I still have a hard time believing it to be COMPLETELY ineffective.

But if your dice just tend to not be hot when it comes to EWO shooting phases, or your enemies end up deepstriking somewhere else just as effectively, or your meta tends to have a lot of Nids (and their relatively unique ability to Deepstrike and assault without running afoul of EWO)... take the Counterfire Defense System instead.

The tradeoff is essentially this: Do you want to force the opponent to CHOOSE to either get shot up OR to deploy further away than they'd want to, or do you want the more reliable but lesser output that comes with roughly doubled Overwatch effectiveness (which itself is still less than the free shooting phase you get with EWO).



Could I confirm EWO triggers on units that disembark from transports? disembark from transports is listed as an ability and is a unit being setup mid game. Is that right? Personally I have given up on broadsides for now in favour of fusion. Although I will have to try them again, at some point.


Its going to depend on the bespoke rules given. For Drop Pods and, IIRC, the Nid Spores, the auto-disembark is explicitly called "set up" and so EWO would trigger (against both the drop pod/mycetic spore AND the disembarked unit). If an enemy already on the table disembarks, I don't believe that counts (since it has to have arrived from off-table, I think).

Broadsides... I'm still on the fence for 'em myself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/08 18:38:26


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






broadsides sure have good firepower and can take ATS to buff it further - I'm likeing hammerheads for the BS.

Question- if you are going to bring 3 hammerheads and 1 has an ion cannon - would you give the ion to longstrike? He can't overheat if he stay still but he also does well with a rail as hes wounding most tanks/monsters on a 2+ and does mortal wounds on a 5 or 6. It's a tough call - another question - is the Ion Cannon even worth it over the rail on any hammerhead?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Pottsey wrote:

Well I did get to use EWO last night but it was still completely ineffective. None of my opponents care about EWO. Last night nids didn’t even ask they just deep striked, disembarked, advanced and charged my broadsides with EWO without a care about EWO which yet again was ineffective.


I may be a bit confused at this point: Were the Nids deepstriking within 12" of your EWO Broadside, and it whiffed... or did Nids deepstrike outside of 12" (or at least outside of 12" of your EWO broadside) then either charge, or use the psyker power to move in the shooting phase then charge? What was the charge distance the Nids had to make?

But you said you got to use EWO, so presumably the Broadside WAS allowed to fire and... it did nothing? It did little? It did statistically average numbers of wounds, but you were expecting more? It didn't wipe out the entire deepstriking enemy in a single volley of dakka? It didn't wipe out the entire enemy force with a single dice roll?

What is your Broadside equipped with, weapon-wise? What is your opponent Deepstriking in, and is it particularly vulnerable or durable against your Broadside's chosen weaponry?

What would a sub-10-point piece of wargear have to do for it to be "effective" in your opinion
?

But ultimately Nids may be the problem rather than the EWO, since they have unique solutions to avoid the EWO that most other armies simply lack. For most...

1. Deepstriking is almost always done at >9". The only exceptions I'm aware of are GSC (you said Nids... did you mean to include GSC?) and T'au Homing Beacons.

2. Setting up models that auto-disembark after Deepstrike must also be done at >9".

Those two provide the baseline: You need to get more than 9" on the charge (9 on the dice +1" bubble) to succeed, for both the Deepstriking transport and anything disembarking from it. That happens quite rarely (somewhere around ~25-30%, or just under 50% if you can reroll charges).

3. You may not move after you arrive by Deepstrike.

4. Advancing happens during the Movement phase and can only performed as part of a move action.

Taken together, you realize that unless you're given explicit permission to do so (basically only GSC when they get certain Cult Ambush results, or when a model is allowed to move in the shooting phase), the models deepstriking are always going to need to roll at least a 9 on their charge, which will fail even for the dedicated chargers most of the time.

That's the benefit EWO brings if the opponent decides against deepstriking near enough to trigger it - forced decrease in the chance to assault.

But EWO is only a few points, and even on a potent platform, it ISN'T GOING TO WIN THE GAME FOR YOU. Even a Stormsurge could whiff on all its attacks, and that isn't the fault of the EWO that that stormsurge was ineffective - it just didn't have as much effectiveness as the average (dice are dice).

It also isn't going to be equally effective against all armies - with Synapse, Tyranids have a unique way to effectively ignore the restriction that EWO provides (... albeit at the cost of a Psyker power you can use once per turn that could have been used to help a different, non-Deepstrike unit get into combat) - but I still have a hard time believing it to be COMPLETELY ineffective.

But if your dice just tend to not be hot when it comes to EWO shooting phases, or your enemies end up deepstriking somewhere else just as effectively, or your meta tends to have a lot of Nids (and their relatively unique ability to Deepstrike and assault without running afoul of EWO)... take the Counterfire Defense System instead.

The tradeoff is essentially this: Do you want to force the opponent to CHOOSE to either get shot up OR to deploy further away than they'd want to, or do you want the more reliable but lesser output that comes with roughly doubled Overwatch effectiveness (which itself is still less than the free shooting phase you get with EWO).



Could I confirm EWO triggers on units that disembark from transports? disembark from transports is listed as an ability and is a unit being setup mid game. Is that right? Personally I have given up on broadsides for now in favour of fusion. Although I will have to try them again, at some point.


Its going to depend on the bespoke rules given. For Drop Pods and, IIRC, the Nid Spores, the auto-disembark is explicitly called "set up" and so EWO would trigger (against both the drop pod/mycetic spore AND the disembarked unit). If an enemy already on the table disembarks, I don't believe that counts (since it has to have arrived from off-table, I think).

Broadsides... I'm still on the fence for 'em myself.

I think you call it Tyrannocyte, the pod thing deep striked 13” away from me onto an objective while my broadsides where sitting on another objective. The 20 Genestealers disembarked within 12” of me. We was a little unclear on if that triggerers at the time so for sake of game speed they let me. Broadsides killed 1 genestealer due to 5++ and having plasma over smart due to lack of spare points. It was a full nid army no GSC and if you cannot advance on deepstrike we both made a mistake but it had little impact on the game that time.

“The tradeoff is essentially this: Do you want to force the opponent to CHOOSE to either get shot up OR to deploy further away than they'd want to,”
My opponents so far just do not care. They don’t factor EWO when picking a deep strike location. Orks, Nids, Chaos have so far chosen to ignore the impact of EWO. I think for now I am going leave EWO until I take bigger suits or larger squads (3 broadsides). Now that ATS boost CC as well as ranged I think I prefer that most of the time. Although on fusion suits I am thinking reroll overwatch.

thank you for the tips and clearing up EWO disembark.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





Pottsey wrote:

I think you call it Tyrannocyte, the pod thing deep striked 13” away from me onto an objective while my broadsides where sitting on another objective. The 20 Genestealers disembarked within 12” of me. We was a little unclear on if that triggerers at the time so for sake of game speed they let me. Broadsides killed 1 genestealer due to 5++ and having plasma over smart due to lack of spare points. It was a full nid army no GSC and if you cannot advance on deepstrike we both made a mistake but it had little impact on the game that time.


So you fired six shots (2 HRR, 4 Plasma) at a target that is unusually durable for its points against that particular type of firepower (High Str Good AP and some Multi-Damage attack, against a model with an invulnerable save almost as good as its armor save).

A bit below average in terms of DPS, I'd imagine, but also not immensely below. Then again, this is a sub-10 point wargear upgrade, which killed a genestealer that wouldn't have been dead otherwise (or at best would have died in Overwatch instead).

Then the Genestealer advanced (so it could actually succeed on the charge more than once in a blue moon) in violation of the rules which allowed it to assault (and presumably do horrible things to your forces), but this had little impact on the game? Cuz otherwise, as I've mentioned, that's a sub-50% chance of charge success for the units that CAN reroll charge distances from Deepstrike, and a squad of Genestealers making it into combat (or not) seems like it would be fairly significant on the game-changing front...

Interesting.


“The tradeoff is essentially this: Do you want to force the opponent to CHOOSE to either get shot up OR to deploy further away than they'd want to,”
My opponents so far just do not care. They don’t factor EWO when picking a deep strike location. Orks, Nids, Chaos have so far chosen to ignore the impact of EWO. I think for now I am going leave EWO until I take bigger suits or larger squads (3 broadsides). Now that ATS boost CC as well as ranged I think I prefer that most of the time. Although on fusion suits I am thinking reroll overwatch.

thank you for the tips and clearing up EWO disembark.


My pleasure. And feel free to leave EWO out entirely, its your army to play as you like!

It isn't as if all my Broadsides/Stormsurges/Riptides/Ghostkeels have had EWO, after all... it just has its place, and CAN be punishing to an enemy if they don't give you the extra 3" breathing room. Your EWO needs to be reasonably good at the job (HRR/PR Broadsides do not have good efficiency against Genestealers - I'd bet a HYMP/SMS Broadside would have taken a much more significant toll and more heavily punished the Nids player), most things short of a Stormsurge aren't going to be wiping enemy units the instant they touch the table.

Its a sub-10 point piece of wargear that, IMO, adds a lot more than 10 points in value (It did for you, at least - Genestealers are more than 10 points, neh?), so hopefully our discussion helps other players figure out if its worth its value to them, too!

Cheers

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/08 22:23:26


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
Question- if you are going to bring 3 hammerheads and 1 has an ion cannon - would you give the ion to longstrike? He can't overheat if he stay still but he also does well with a rail as hes wounding most tanks/monsters on a 2+ and does mortal wounds on a 5 or 6. It's a tough call - another question - is the Ion Cannon even worth it over the rail on any hammerhead?

NEVER!
Longstrike is Rail Gun ONLY
Being able to cause d3 mortal wounds on a 5+ is absolutely massive
Not to mention he wounds everything on a 2+

Ion Cannon would only wound T8 on a 3+, very disappointing.
but seriously, What does the Ion Cannon even do?
Heavy d3... and only d3 damage... for 55 points
Know else has that stat line... CIB... (factoring in ATS)
It's straight up the exact same stat line... d3 shots with d3 damage, and the CIB only costs 18 points.

For the Ion Cannon to be close to viable, it needs to do d6 damage and be AP-3

Oh, and don't forget... A Longstrike buffed Hammerhead still wouldn't overheat.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/09 05:31:54



6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in fi
Water-Caste Negotiator





So my friend developed a list that has 3 Stormsurges and Shadowsun, rest Markerlights and Commanders. Pop Mont'ka turn one to advance Surges up thefield and plant your legs. Commanders do what they do. Then on turn two pop Kayuon with for Surges and watch as everything dies.

It was amusing to see 3 Surges on the field. His reasoning was that if it's not good, you just don't have enough of them. It is a powerful list, but he hasn't tested it much yet. Just against some pretty casual Chaos list with a lot of berserkers and predators and stuff. Don't know how it'll do against Stormraven spam, he'll probably lose at least one Surge first turn.

-Heresy grows from idleness- 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

 Fueli wrote:
So my friend developed a list that has 3 Stormsurges and Shadowsun, rest Markerlights and Commanders. Pop Mont'ka turn one to advance Surges up thefield and plant your legs. Commanders do what they do. Then on turn two pop Kayuon with for Surges and watch as everything dies.

It was amusing to see 3 Surges on the field. His reasoning was that if it's not good, you just don't have enough of them. It is a powerful list, but he hasn't tested it much yet. Just against some pretty casual Chaos list with a lot of berserkers and predators and stuff. Don't know how it'll do against Stormraven spam, he'll probably lose at least one Surge first turn.
Isn't a stormsurge.. nowadays, a bigger riptide (worse save?) with a Leman Russ Punish for one arm and a demolisher for the other. Around about 500pts?

I mean, sure.. 3 of them will put out lots of damage. The problem is when you start matching that vs. other options in the opponents army, better point efficiency will always win out.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in it
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





 Fueli wrote:
So my friend developed a list that has 3 Stormsurges and Shadowsun, rest Markerlights and Commanders. Pop Mont'ka turn one to advance Surges up thefield and plant your legs. Commanders do what they do. Then on turn two pop Kayuon with for Surges and watch as everything dies.

It was amusing to see 3 Surges on the field. His reasoning was that if it's not good, you just don't have enough of them. It is a powerful list, but he hasn't tested it much yet. Just against some pretty casual Chaos list with a lot of berserkers and predators and stuff. Don't know how it'll do against Stormraven spam, he'll probably lose at least one Surge first turn.

You cannot use both Mont'Ka and Kauyon. It's one OR the other, 1 turn only.

On a general note, it disgusts me the general tendency to spam a single unit multiple times. Both for us Tau players and for every other army too.
One of the positive effects of Decurion-style formations was that they encouraged to bring diversified lists (even with tax units). The Decurion bonuses were completely unbalanced (SM, Tau and Necrons were good, while AM was useless for example), but the "fluffiness" of the lists was decent.
Now we have tournaments dominated by spam lists...


 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

Aenar wrote:
 Fueli wrote:
So my friend developed a list that has 3 Stormsurges and Shadowsun, rest Markerlights and Commanders. Pop Mont'ka turn one to advance Surges up thefield and plant your legs. Commanders do what they do. Then on turn two pop Kayuon with for Surges and watch as everything dies.

It was amusing to see 3 Surges on the field. His reasoning was that if it's not good, you just don't have enough of them. It is a powerful list, but he hasn't tested it much yet. Just against some pretty casual Chaos list with a lot of berserkers and predators and stuff. Don't know how it'll do against Stormraven spam, he'll probably lose at least one Surge first turn.

You cannot use both Mont'Ka and Kauyon. It's one OR the other, 1 turn only.

On a general note, it disgusts me the general tendency to spam a single unit multiple times. Both for us Tau players and for every other army too.
One of the positive effects of Decurion-style formations was that they encouraged to bring diversified lists (even with tax units). The Decurion bonuses were completely unbalanced (SM, Tau and Necrons were good, while AM was useless for example), but the "fluffiness" of the lists was decent.
Now we have tournaments dominated by spam lists...


Not true on the Mont'ka and Kau'yon. Using their "Genius of X" special rules Shadowsun and Farsight can pop Kau'yon and Mont'ka, respectively, even if Mont'ka or Kau'yon has already been used prior. Shadowsun and Farsight also have the
ability to pop Kau'yon or Mont'ka like a normal commander so it is perfectly legal to have Shadowsun use Mont'ka on turn one, using her Master of War special rule, and then on turn 2 use her Genius of Kau'yon special rule to pop Kau'yon. She could alternatively use Kau'yon twice.
Same with Farsight but Mont'ka instead of Kau'yon.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/09 13:39:38


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in fi
Water-Caste Negotiator





Aenar wrote:
 Fueli wrote:
So my friend developed a list that has 3 Stormsurges and Shadowsun, rest Markerlights and Commanders. Pop Mont'ka turn one to advance Surges up thefield and plant your legs. Commanders do what they do. Then on turn two pop Kayuon with for Surges and watch as everything dies.

It was amusing to see 3 Surges on the field. His reasoning was that if it's not good, you just don't have enough of them. It is a powerful list, but he hasn't tested it much yet. Just against some pretty casual Chaos list with a lot of berserkers and predators and stuff. Don't know how it'll do against Stormraven spam, he'll probably lose at least one Surge first turn.

You cannot use both Mont'Ka and Kauyon. It's one OR the other, 1 turn only.

On a general note, it disgusts me the general tendency to spam a single unit multiple times. Both for us Tau players and for every other army too.
One of the positive effects of Decurion-style formations was that they encouraged to bring diversified lists (even with tax units). The Decurion bonuses were completely unbalanced (SM, Tau and Necrons were good, while AM was useless for example), but the "fluffiness" of the lists was decent.
Now we have tournaments dominated by spam lists...


You can with Shadowsun. As for your opinion on spam lists, please keep that out of here.

-Heresy grows from idleness- 
   
Made in br
Fireknife Shas'el




Lisbon, Portugal

Aenar wrote:
On a general note, it disgusts me the general tendency to spam a single unit multiple times. Both for us Tau players and for every other army too.
One of the positive effects of Decurion-style formations was that they encouraged to bring diversified lists (even with tax units). The Decurion bonuses were completely unbalanced (SM, Tau and Necrons were good, while AM was useless for example), but the "fluffiness" of the lists was decent.
Now we have tournaments dominated by spam lists...


Spam has always been part of 40k (especially with the easy access to internet), as people could easily share their opinions on units (this subforum is a prime example of this). While casual play (the way we play most) see some variances because people has different views and takes on units, for tourneys people always have brought what was deemed the best. Today, it seems like SM flyers do that.
Decurions only made people spam the best formations (how many used Alien Auxiliary Cadre, for example?) for a simple Core tax (if you played Farsight enclaves, the Core was your best formation anyway).

Regarding Tau specifically, I'd say the lack of BS2+ shooting makes us look quite fondly at the Commander. Our lack of re-roll all hits (only once with Kauyon) and 1s to wound (things SM can do the entire game) also forces our hand into better stuff and repeat it ad nauseum.
I believe the first step is to make other stuff more interesting (reducing costs, changing unit structure or giving them special rules), as also reworking the markerlight table to dish out 2 +1 to hit bonuses.

One of Tau's biggest appeal was 'quality of shooting', in the fact we managed to deal terrific blows to the enemy with our technology, while AM was our counterpart with 'quantity of shooting'. This new markerlight table removed this factor for rank and file troops, making people crave for Commander's abilities.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/09 13:12:12


AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion & X-Wing: CIS / WWX: Union

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"

 Shadenuat wrote:
Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army.
 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

 Vector Strike wrote:
Aenar wrote:
On a general note, it disgusts me the general tendency to spam a single unit multiple times. Both for us Tau players and for every other army too.
One of the positive effects of Decurion-style formations was that they encouraged to bring diversified lists (even with tax units). The Decurion bonuses were completely unbalanced (SM, Tau and Necrons were good, while AM was useless for example), but the "fluffiness" of the lists was decent.
Now we have tournaments dominated by spam lists...


Spam has always been part of 40k (especially with the easy access to internet), as people could easily share their opinions on units (this subforum is a prime example of this). While casual play (the way we play most) see some variances because people has different views and takes on units, for tourneys people always have brought what was deemed the best. Today, it seems like SM flyers do that.
Decurions only made people spam the best formations (how many used Alien Auxiliary Cadre, for example?) for a simple Core tax (if you played Farsight enclaves, the Core was your best formation anyway).

Regarding Tau specifically, I'd say the lack of BS2+ shooting makes us look quite fondly at the Commander. Our lack of re-roll all hits (only once with Kauyon) and 1s to wound (things SM can do the entire game) also forces our hand into better stuff and repeat it ad nauseum.
I believe the first step is to make other stuff more interesting (reducing costs, changing unit structure or giving them special rules), as also reworking the markerlight table to dish out 2 +1 to hit bonuses.

One of Tau's biggest appeal was 'quality of shooting', in the fact we managed to deal terrific blows to the enemy with our technology, while AM was our counterpart with 'quantity of shooting'. This new markerlight table removed this factor for rank and file troops, making people crave for Commander's abilities.
QFT

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in de
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot




Germany

Yeah spam lists are really annoying and I would never play against anybody who spams.
A few squads here and there, some different units and the game is just a lot more fun. for everybody.
   
Made in ca
Trustworthy Shas'vre




DFW area Texas - Rarely

Agreed riptide spam is why many people felt the tau nerfs were 'fair' or in many areas people would not play against tau.

Regardless of the fact that many people did NOT spam them - no one liked those lists, and in association tau and tau players in general.

As for your opinion on spam lists, please keep that out of here.


Also saying "don't post that here" - sorry, but going to disagree - spamming stormravens or stormsurges is not 'tactics' its a crutch creating situation that is un-fun for your opponent and is merely exploiting some rule combination that exemplifies the waac mentality (yes, you can have this without realizing it).

In fact, I would consider intelligent tactics to involve movement, positioning, durability, longevity, damage output and cost - in a blend of how to balance those aspects and their clever combinations to achieve positive results against a variety of lists. Doing so without spam is tactics.

You can have efficiency and 'math' in tactics - but excessive spam is a unsatisfactory game experience - eventually for both players.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/09 14:21:17


DavePak
"Remember, in life, the only thing you absolutely control is your own attitude - do not squander that power."
Fully Painted armies:
TAU: 10k Nids: 9600 Marines: 4000 Crons: 7600
Actor, Gamer, Comic, Corporate Nerd
 
   
Made in us
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




South Jerzey

Hey so new Tau player here. I bought a start collecting box and some different minis on ebay so far.

Aiming to do a 1,000 point list. I purchased one broadside a ghostkeel and some stealth suits as well.

Is there a consensus on what a broadside loadout should look like? I like the look of the HRR and was thinking HRR with two SMS for his loadout.

Is the high yield missile pod a better option?

And are support systems worth it on a broadside? What kind of drones should I use?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/09 14:27:29


 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

Tpiddy wrote:
Hey so new Tau player here. I bought a start collecting box and some different minis on ebay so far.

Aiming to do a 1,000 point list. I purchased one broadside a ghostkeel and some stealth suits as well.

Is there a consensus on what a broadside loadout should look like? I like the look of the HRR and was thinking HRR with two SMS for his loadout.

Is the high yield missile pod a better option?

And are support systems worth it on a broadside? What kind of drones should I use?
They are both decent (not perhaps excellent, though as they once were).

If you are fielding HRR suits, perhaps go for high volume of shots on other platforms (thinking gun drones?); if you're going for HYMP, then try fielding high-intensity firepower (thinking, quad-fusion commanders).

Drone controllers are good on stealth suits, if you have mobile drones to support/make use of the benefit.

Don't over commit on the broadsides though, they are very very expensive and, compare their cost to a tank in terms of survivability, quite fragile.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Tpiddy wrote:
Hey so new Tau player here. I bought a start collecting box and some different minis on ebay so far.

Aiming to do a 1,000 point list. I purchased one broadside a ghostkeel and some stealth suits as well.

Is there a consensus on what a broadside loadout should look like? I like the look of the HRR and was thinking HRR with two SMS for his loadout.

Is the high yield missile pod a better option?

And are support systems worth it on a broadside? What kind of drones should I use?

HYMP is really bad at the moment
The closest redeeming feature of a HYMP setup (HYMP, SMS, ATS)
Isn't even the effectiveness of the HYMP, but the fact that SMS+ATS is actually decent.
You could say well... why not just replace HYMP with HRR and keep the SMS+ATS...
Because HRR+ATS is a little pointless...

If you want Missile Pods, then Crisis Suits are slightly more effective at running them.
Both with and without ATS.
Then Monat (Commanders) are vastly more effective than both of them.

The other option is to do
HRR+Missile Drones+DC+Plasma Guns
In which case the Missile Drones are still as effective as the HYMP would have been.
This also alludes nicely to having the Gun Drones hang out here, but the annoying thing is the vastly different ranges with a relatively static line...


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Talamare wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Question- if you are going to bring 3 hammerheads and 1 has an ion cannon - would you give the ion to longstrike? He can't overheat if he stay still but he also does well with a rail as hes wounding most tanks/monsters on a 2+ and does mortal wounds on a 5 or 6. It's a tough call - another question - is the Ion Cannon even worth it over the rail on any hammerhead?

NEVER!
Longstrike is Rail Gun ONLY
Being able to cause d3 mortal wounds on a 5+ is absolutely massive
Not to mention he wounds everything on a 2+

Ion Cannon would only wound T8 on a 3+, very disappointing.
but seriously, What does the Ion Cannon even do?
Heavy d3... and only d3 damage... for 55 points
Know else has that stat line... CIB... (factoring in ATS)
It's straight up the exact same stat line... d3 shots with d3 damage, and the CIB only costs 18 points.

For the Ion Cannon to be close to viable, it needs to do d6 damage and be AP-3

Oh, and don't forget... A Longstrike buffed Hammerhead still wouldn't overheat.

Good point - so no need for longstrike to be an ion. CIB is strong - it's not 60 inch range though. Also longstrike ion is 2+ to wound anything t7 or less. with potentially 3d3 damage getting though. I think the biggest issue is the ion also costs more than the rail :(.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






 Talamare wrote:
Tpiddy wrote:

And are support systems worth it on a broadside? What kind of drones should I use?

HYMP is really bad at the moment

The other option is to do
HRR+Missile Drones+DC+Plasma Guns


Given I'd always want the HRR shooting at maximum effectiveness, Target Lock seems the default Support System for HRR.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 John Prins wrote:
 Talamare wrote:
Tpiddy wrote:

And are support systems worth it on a broadside? What kind of drones should I use?

HYMP is really bad at the moment

The other option is to do
HRR+Missile Drones+DC+Plasma Guns


Given I'd always want the HRR shooting at maximum effectiveness, Target Lock seems the default Support System for HRR.

HRR Broadside is insanely open in which support system you give it, since it doesn't NEED any of them.
CDS for increasing your chance of devastating an Overwatch. (Tho CDS is probably still bad, really should have been on a 5+ like Eldar)
DC if you took Missile Drones
EWO to counter Deep Strikes
MT if you're doing a low/no ML list
SI to increase it's survivability
TL to potentially increase it's maneuverability
VT so it can shoot down the wealth of fliers in the game at the moment

... ATS if you REALLY if you feel 48 points for 8 S5 AP1 Ignore Cover Shots are good... (and if you want to be a jerk to the very few Land Raiders people still use... or the rare Tank in Cover)


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in us
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




South Jerzey

Thanks guys!
   
Made in fi
Water-Caste Negotiator





davethepak wrote:
Agreed riptide spam is why many people felt the tau nerfs were 'fair' or in many areas people would not play against tau.

Regardless of the fact that many people did NOT spam them - no one liked those lists, and in association tau and tau players in general.

As for your opinion on spam lists, please keep that out of here.


Also saying "don't post that here" - sorry, but going to disagree - spamming stormravens or stormsurges is not 'tactics' its a crutch creating situation that is un-fun for your opponent and is merely exploiting some rule combination that exemplifies the waac mentality (yes, you can have this without realizing it).

In fact, I would consider intelligent tactics to involve movement, positioning, durability, longevity, damage output and cost - in a blend of how to balance those aspects and their clever combinations to achieve positive results against a variety of lists. Doing so without spam is tactics.

You can have efficiency and 'math' in tactics - but excessive spam is a unsatisfactory game experience - eventually for both players.


Having 3 Stormsurges in this edition is a tactic that needs to be discussed. We know by math there are other more efficient options, but that math doesn't really include survivability, movement, or combos, nor does it include potential match ups. We need to decide if it can be worth it and I'm looking for insight on the subject. And by "worth it" I mean competitively. If one can not provide meaningful experience or insight and only talks about spamming being waac, then it's really has no value in this conversation. I guess I could be wrong, but doesn't tactics involve some kind of comptetitiveness? The goal is to outplay your opponent after all.

-Heresy grows from idleness- 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Fueli wrote:

Having 3 Stormsurges in this edition is a tactic that needs to be discussed. We know by math there are other more efficient options, but that math doesn't really include survivability, movement, or combos, nor does it include potential match ups. We need to decide if it can be worth it and I'm looking for insight on the subject. And by "worth it" I mean competitively. If one can not provide meaningful experience or insight and only talks about spamming being waac, then it's really has no value in this conversation. I guess I could be wrong, but doesn't tactics involve some kind of comptetitiveness? The goal is to outplay your opponent after all.

Be careful...
If you bring too many 3xSS to Tournaments, they are going to RipTide it


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot






Canada

For competitive games, my SS is staying home. It just doesn't seem worth it, esp with it's lack of movement and reduced firepower.

6000 pts
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"We're on an express elevator to hell - goin' down!"

"Depends on the service being refused. It should be fine to refuse to make a porn star a dildo shaped cake that they wanted to use in a wedding themed porn..." 
   
Made in fi
Water-Caste Negotiator





Talamare wrote:
 Fueli wrote:

Having 3 Stormsurges in this edition is a tactic that needs to be discussed. We know by math there are other more efficient options, but that math doesn't really include survivability, movement, or combos, nor does it include potential match ups. We need to decide if it can be worth it and I'm looking for insight on the subject. And by "worth it" I mean competitively. If one can not provide meaningful experience or insight and only talks about spamming being waac, then it's really has no value in this conversation. I guess I could be wrong, but doesn't tactics involve some kind of comptetitiveness? The goal is to outplay your opponent after all.

Be careful...
If you bring too many 3xSS to Tournaments, they are going to RipTide it


Now that would be hilarious. It's not like we're making any waves in competitive scene now anyhow.

Retrogamer0001 wrote:For competitive games, my SS is staying home. It just doesn't seem worth it, esp with it's lack of movement and reduced firepower.


That's why you need to bring three and Shadowsun. It partly fixes the mobility and increase the firepower but you get to keep your armys overall toughness. Granted, SS is not that survivable. I see it might work, depending on meta.

Speaking of loadouts generally, Velocity Tracker is nuts on Stormsurge and Crisis suits as it only requires the target to have the keyword FLY, which many, many good units have in this new and still developing meta.

-Heresy grows from idleness- 
   
 
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