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I can see a case for having your 3 stormsurges nailed down within 6" of each other, with Shadowsun in the middle. Charging that would not be very much fun at all.
You wouldn't be able to play any missions of course...
I can't really see the "moral" objection to stormsurge spam. How is it different to playing a knight army? Why would it be worse to spam stormsurges than commanders, for example?
And in general, this is a tactics forum. People should be allowed to discuss the tactics they find effective. If spam is effective that points to a failure at internal balance from the game designers, not a defect on the part of the players.
My gut instinct is that 3-4 Surges in a list is not worthwhile. The pulse driver is basically 2 lascannons, so to me, the blastcannon is the main weapon of choice. The 54 pt savings doesn't hurt, either. The secondary weapons aren't really all that impressive to me, but flamers are tough to ignore. That many ATS-supported autohits will cause a bunch of damage. You may choose to roll with burst cannons to get some extra juice out of your EWO, but I think that's a mediocre substitute for flamers. Support system-wise, I feel like an ATS and a shield gen are basically mandatory. EWO is a really good option and probably what I'd pick, but stims and VTs are worthwhile, as well. I just think that warding off annoying special weapons drops and attempted first-turn charges is a big enough deal to invest that last slot on it.
All that costs 458/model, a relatively high price for the firepower and durability you get. For instance, compare it to a Spartan which has 8 lascannons, 2 heavy bolters, an extra toughness, better BS, non-trivial close combat ability, impressive transport capacity, and 4 more wounds for 50 extra pts. Granted, it doesn't have an invulnerable save or the other bells and whistles, but I think I'd rather have the heavier firepower.
In any event, Stormsurges are still going to be pretty difficult to eliminate and will be spewing their massive payload of S5 for quite some time. However, therein lies the problem. Gun Drones obviously are not durable, but they are dirt freaking cheap. Between Gun Drones, Fire Warriors, and all the rest S5 spam is what we specialize in. Roughly speaking, per Surge outlined above, you get 6d6+8 (avg 29) shots of small arms fire. 64pts of Gun Drones can top that. Maybe throw in a few extra to account for the ATS, but that's still a bit disheartening. You'll also need to toss in some source of heavy firepower to rival the main gun, so we're probably talking 250-ish pts of stuff to equal the Surge's raw damage output. Is the extra durability worth 200pts? Maybe?
Keep in mind that Stormsurges are very marker-dependent still. You'll need a fair amount of Pathfinders (or whatever source you prefer) to keep them functioning optimally. Maybe toss in a Vanguard detachment with a couple of fusion Commanders and several PF units on top on the Super-Heavy detachment.
You could fairly easily fit 3 Surges, 2 Commanders, 15-20 Pathfinders, and some Gun Drones in 2000pts. Given the degree of area denial and potential for precision strikes against tough opposing targets, I think you could really give other competitive armies a run for their money. You'll probably suffer when trying to claim objectives due to how painfully slow Stormsurges are, however.
Mandragola wrote: I can't really see the "moral" objection to stormsurge spam. How is it different to playing a knight army? Why would it be worse to spam stormsurges than commanders, for example?
People will say 'because knights can only field themselves, while xx army has many other options! They SHOULD use them instead!'
Truth to be told, 6'x4' is too small for big pieces like Knights and larger minis - but if Knights can be used, so anything at least as big as them can too.
Don't pay any mind to such arguments - they don't hold any substance in a game that everything can hurt everything
Is there any reason to take a Stormsurge over a Y'Vahra? Almost the same cost in real dollars, better mobility, WAY better firepower...
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"We're on an express elevator to hell - goin' down!"
"Depends on the service being refused. It should be fine to refuse to make a porn star a dildo shaped cake that they wanted to use in a wedding themed porn..."
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Is there any reason to take a Stormsurge over a Y'Vahra? Almost the same cost in real dollars, better mobility, WAY better firepower...
The availability and acceptance of FW units in your local meta is the only real limiting factor.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
Agree. I'd say both the FW Riptides variants are superior to the similarly-costed Stormsurge. They aren't as durable, but I'd rather have the offensive output.
KiloFiX wrote: Stormsurge can take Early Warning System which Yvahra and Rvarna can't take though so that's something.
Not really, at least in the case of the Y'Vahra, which is in your opponent's face turn one.
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"We're on an express elevator to hell - goin' down!"
"Depends on the service being refused. It should be fine to refuse to make a porn star a dildo shaped cake that they wanted to use in a wedding themed porn..."
Storm surge is garbo IMO. Where it used to be a living god now it is heavily nerfed.
It used to have great CC ability with stomps - it's blast cannon used to put out ap3 small blasts and D weapons up close! It's missiles used to annihilate the one thing you wanted dead turn 1. Plus it used to be easy to get this this rerolling 1's with bs5. Plus it used to double it's firepower if it stayed still.
Now it does none of that. AND IT COST MORE. Forget the thing exists. You would get way more mileage out of 50 Fire-warriors.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Is there any reason to take a Stormsurge over a Y'Vahra? Almost the same cost in real dollars, better mobility, WAY better firepower...
Some groups don’t allow Forgeworld unless it’s a forge world game while the Stormsurge being in the codex is a valid unit. Just something to keep in mind if you play around different groups.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/10 15:31:45
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
I've seen people discussing this as 'shots' being different from 'attacks'. I find this line of thinking lacking substance and probably not the intent of the company.
I play it gives only 3 shots at 18" per infantry model and 6 shots at 9" per drone model (they don't get the Pulse Accelerator benefit)
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
I've seen people discussing this as 'shots' being different from 'attacks'. I find this line of thinking lacking substance and probably not the intent of the company.
I play it gives only 3 shots at 18" per infantry model and 6 shots at 9" per drone model (they don't get the Pulse Accelerator benefit)
To me, the RAW is muddled by the wording (In the actual rules, it distinguishes shots and attacks by allowing shots to be split among different targets but not allowing attacks to be split, but the word "shot" is also used in place of "attack" in one of the example texts), but the intent seems reasonably clear on what the Fire Blade was intended to do (though I can't say the same for the intent behind other uses of shots versus attacks).
An interesting question of RAW, but like the Longstrike self-buff, the RAI seems pretty clear (except this time, it's also the more conservative ruling).
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Is there any reason to take a Stormsurge over a Y'Vahra? Almost the same cost in real dollars, better mobility, WAY better firepower...
Some groups don’t allow Forgeworld unless it’s a forge world game while the Stormsurge being in the codex is a valid unit. Just something to keep in mind if you play around different groups.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
Never heard of a "forge world game" before, and I've also never experienced anyone refusing to play a game with forge world models sheerly on principle, so I don't think this will occur too often. I think the Y'Vahra is one of the saving graces of the Tau faction right now, considering how almost every other suit we have access to was gutted mercilessly.
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"We're on an express elevator to hell - goin' down!"
"Depends on the service being refused. It should be fine to refuse to make a porn star a dildo shaped cake that they wanted to use in a wedding themed porn..."
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Is there any reason to take a Stormsurge over a Y'Vahra? Almost the same cost in real dollars, better mobility, WAY better firepower...
Some groups don’t allow Forgeworld unless it’s a forge world game while the Stormsurge being in the codex is a valid unit. Just something to keep in mind if you play around different groups.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
Never heard of a "forge world game" before, and I've also never experienced anyone refusing to play a game with forge world models sheerly on principle, so I don't think this will occur too often. I think the Y'Vahra is one of the saving graces of the Tau faction right now, considering how almost every other suit we have access to was gutted mercilessly.
30k is the Forge World game. Just saying.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Is there any reason to take a Stormsurge over a Y'Vahra? Almost the same cost in real dollars, better mobility, WAY better firepower...
Some groups don’t allow Forgeworld unless it’s a forge world game while the Stormsurge being in the codex is a valid unit. Just something to keep in mind if you play around different groups.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
Never heard of a "forge world game" before, and I've also never experienced anyone refusing to play a game with forge world models sheerly on principle, so I don't think this will occur too often. I think the Y'Vahra is one of the saving graces of the Tau faction right now, considering how almost every other suit we have access to was gutted mercilessly.
Perhaps it depends on what area you live in. Most of the groups I play in around here do not allow Forgeworld units unless all players agreed beforehand or it’s a known Forgeworld open night. They do not see Forgeworld as part of the core game.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Is there any reason to take a Stormsurge over a Y'Vahra? Almost the same cost in real dollars, better mobility, WAY better firepower...
Some groups don’t allow Forgeworld unless it’s a forge world game while the Stormsurge being in the codex is a valid unit. Just something to keep in mind if you play around different groups.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
Never heard of a "forge world game" before, and I've also never experienced anyone refusing to play a game with forge world models sheerly on principle, so I don't think this will occur too often. I think the Y'Vahra is one of the saving graces of the Tau faction right now, considering how almost every other suit we have access to was gutted mercilessly.
Yeah, we're a "No Forge World" group, for instance, and we used to not use special characters either. Restrictions! We can has them.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Is there any reason to take a Stormsurge over a Y'Vahra? Almost the same cost in real dollars, better mobility, WAY better firepower...
Some groups don’t allow Forgeworld unless it’s a forge world game while the Stormsurge being in the codex is a valid unit. Just something to keep in mind if you play around different groups.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
Never heard of a "forge world game" before, and I've also never experienced anyone refusing to play a game with forge world models sheerly on principle, so I don't think this will occur too often. I think the Y'Vahra is one of the saving graces of the Tau faction right now, considering how almost every other suit we have access to was gutted mercilessly.
My local group and league are also No Forgeworld.
There are literally only 2 guys that even own any Forgeworld, and they only use them rarely.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
I've seen people discussing this as 'shots' being different from 'attacks'. I find this line of thinking lacking substance and probably not the intent of the company.
I play it gives only 3 shots at 18" per infantry model and 6 shots at 9" per drone model (they don't get the Pulse Accelerator benefit)
That's my reading as well, but GW really should be clear on it in the FAQ, because people will argue anything.
EDIT: How does Fireblade + Pulse Rifles + Pulse Accelerator drone interact, is that rapid fire 3 or 4 shots at 18” range?
I've seen people discussing this as 'shots' being different from 'attacks'. I find this line of thinking lacking substance and probably not the intent of the company.
I play it gives only 3 shots at 18" per [Pulse Rifle armed] Infantry model and 6 shots at 9" per drone model (they don't get the Pulse Accelerator benefit)
That's my reading as well, but GW really should be clear on it in the FAQ, because people will argue anything.
Haechi wrote: I'm completely against FW in tournaments as their entries are completely overpowered and harmful to the balance of the game.
I think this is a rather ignorant thing to say, considering that most major tournaments usually allow FW in lists - ITC and NOVA in particular. As far as being "harmful to the game", well, GW does enough harm with their attempts at rules-writing and butchering some factions down to uselessness or spamminess. FW provide more unit options for armies, with the potential (when done well) to plug gaps in the main codexes.
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"We're on an express elevator to hell - goin' down!"
"Depends on the service being refused. It should be fine to refuse to make a porn star a dildo shaped cake that they wanted to use in a wedding themed porn..."
Haechi wrote: I'm completely against FW in tournaments as their entries are completely overpowered and harmful to the balance of the game.
Compared to 2 point Brimstone Deamons and 100 point Changlings on the under costed side or 171 point Skyrays and 304 pt Riptides on the over costed side? FW point costs are just as wacky as the normal GW indices.
Furthermore, I'd contend that the only things not excruciatingly overpriced in our FW catalogue are R'Varnas and Y'Vahras, which I believe are costed fairly. Tiger Sharks will join that crew if they get some rules modifications to allow them to shoot all their weaponry all the time.
Haechi wrote: I'm completely against FW in tournaments as their entries are completely overpowered and harmful to the balance of the game.
Because 7th ed scatterbikes and wraithknights were balanced?
Or conversely 8th ed tetras are completely overpowered?
FW is variety and is no harder to get than any GW proper rules the whole belief that FW is not GW needs to stop. FW is no more broken or bad for balance than anything GW proper puts out.
OT: I had a game vs DE and won it pretty handedly. Although a big part of that was seizing on him and getting to kill 2 of his raiders and half a big kabalite squad turn 1. Even so he made a pretty good come back, witches are nasty and having to roll off to leave combat hurts our suits a lot. Still good game though. Looking forward to testing out my y'varha this week going to see if its really as good as everyone thinks it is.
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
All right guys I finally got the time to finish writing my first draft list, I tried to include a mix of units I loved and good deal boxes like the Start Collecting and Optimised Pathfinder Team, but I quickly ended up with looots of points (especially when I included two teams of Crisis suits) so I tried that list. I like Broadsides but I don't know how to fit them in this 2000 pts list, and I don't know if I have enough damage dealer weapons to take care of 10+ W vehicles and monsters, you tell me. I'll explain my choices and the roles I intend them to fill.
TACTICS:
So the idea is to have these 10 Pulse Carbines FW in a nice position, alongside the Pathfinders with the PA and Grav drones and the Ethereal hidden somewhere with them to give them rerolls of 1 to Hit. Longstrike, preferably in a cozy firing position behind the lines. The Fireblade will accompany the two min squads of Pulse Carbines FW, using his markerlights when he can for the teams to use. The 10 Breachers will go in the Devilfish and disembark along the two drones of the Devilfish on a key position to disrupt the enemy's firing line or support units.
The Ghostkeel would infiltrate in a manner as to take some attention from my main battleforce, to give them one turn or two to position well enough as to be the most effective. I gave him the Cyclic Ion Raker because I feel it's enough firepower to deal with elite units while the two Fusion Blasters are still there in case of a need for can opening. Now the XV25 suits, I think this will be tricky if it's even possible but my hypothesis is that I could use them nicely. The key being to infiltrate them somewhere close enough to the enemy's big guns, and have them survive a turn to close the distance to them and put on a Homing Beacon to deliver the Crisis Team with their Fusion Blasters, Cyclic Ion Blaster and Missile Pod. I had one with 2 Flamers to deal with the bubblewrap, and a Shield Generator to eat eventual returning fire a little easier if I fail to destroy my target at once. I bought VT in case of flyers, it's not a lot of points and loads of stuff have the Fly keyword nowadays. It's bonus if I successfully marklight the target beforehand.
I'd use the Kroots as one massive force supporting itself and taking some heat on them instead of my shiny gunline. If they don't shoot the Kroots they have an overpopulation problem anyway. Now I notice the Shaper don't have the Scout move but still this can work, I'd place him between all of his Kroots if possible so they can benefit from the Ld and rerolls of 1 to Wound, as it affects shooting attacks too this could be interesting. What would be perfect would be to be able to proc the Ritual Blade kill to forgo the Morale phase that could seriously hurt them, but that looks rather unfeasable.
The Piranhas would be used to troll, as you suggested earlier. Maybe even pick up far objectives, who knows ? They're cheap and reasonably tough. The second Pathfinder team would try to find a cozy spot to mark targets for the others and occasionaly get a shot with the Rail Rifle. I love Rail guns, have I told you yet ? As for Darkstrider, I hesitate between placing him with the Breacher team and the big squad of Pulse Rifles and Pathfinders with their Ethereal, it would be a fluffier choice than to have the scout leader enter a building like a SWAT team don't you think ?
The things I'm not sure about:
- Number and disposition of Markerlights: I have a grand total of 12 Markerlights sources, I'm not sure that's enough but I'm not loaded on Seeker Missiles neither, so I think I have the right number but you tell me.
- HQ choices: I fear Longstrike may be nice but that you guys love the Coldstar Commander, I reckon I just checked the points and saw he was not really expensive points-wise so I'll consider. What would he bring me ? How to use Kauyon or Mont'ka to the best with my list ?
- Quantity of heavy firepower: Do I have enough at 2000 pts or do I need more ? There's considerably more than my AdMech and my AdMech doesn't have enough firepower yet, so I'm conflicted.
- The loadout of all Battlesuits: I have no idea if my choices are really efficient, I payed the 40 pts Shield for the Ghostkeel because I feel he'll be eating lead as soon as first turn and there's so many Lascannons, a 4++ should be nice. As for the Crisis suits, I planned on using two teams with a similar versatile loadout (one more troop-killing than the other, more vehicle-killing) but it costed loads of points and I felt I lacked numbers for my army. Small elite armies die rather quickly most of the time, except for Super-Heavies lists of course, so I love having loads of guys.
Please tell me your opinion on this, I need your experience and different minds may provide other points of view that I wouldn't have thought of otherwise Thanks for taking the time to read all this and helping me !
Vector Strike wrote: If changes come to Tau at all, they won't be before either the codex or the Chapter Approved book (due to the end of the year) - unless, of course, terrible typos like the AX-1-0 not being able to fire its main guns.
Until there, all we can do is to test, test and do more testing until we find what can deal with whatever the enemy throws at us.
If even after 3-4 months nothing changes much, then yeah we'll be able to have enough data to ask for changes. The game is (officially) 3 weeks old!
What I can agree, though, is that we don't have the feel of 'quality of shooting' we had back in 7e, in comparison to the 'volume of shooting' from Astra Militarum. The new markerlights don't match well with the BS4+. Either should change, but I rather test it even more than ask for it right now
I have good news friend. I emailed forge world and go this response.
Hi,
Thanks for the email Our rules team have been very busy working on FAQ and updates for our recently released Imperial Armour index books. Whilst they are still working on a few of the data sheets we have some good news for the ones you are asking about.
The rules team have given us a temporary fix till the official FAQ is released so please feel free to use these in your games of Warhammer 40k for the time being.
Tiger Shark AX-10 has a macro weapon but is not titanic and can not hover so it can never use the weapon.For the Tiger Shark it should have the following text:
Titan-killer: A model with this rule may fire a Macro type weapon whilst moving even if it is not Titanic, but on any turn in which the controlling player elects to fire a Macro weapon while moving it may not fire weapons other than those with the Macro type until the start of the controlling player's next turn.
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Yeah, unfortunately 600pts is a ridiculous amount to pay for 2 heavy rail cannon alone. Having the other weapons available would make it a worthwhile purchase, as I noted above.
Haechi wrote: I'm completely against FW in tournaments as their entries are completely overpowered and harmful to the balance of the game.
Huh, no? GW stuff is way out of hand. The new 5-6 SM flyer meta is entirely composed of GW flyers.
Back in 7th, GWOP stuff were leagues ahead of any FWOP stuff.
I can understand prohibiting FW now because their indexes were terribly done, but not in 6th, not in 7th and certainly not after FWFAQs its 4 indexes (2 of them already were).
---
On AX-1-0: firstly, I too was dismayed by not being able to use the other weapons. But it's only 70p not being used... not even a minimal Stealth Suit unit or a naked Commander. I can live without 70p of weapons if I have access to 2 HRCs. Average 14 S18 wounds for less than 600p seems nice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/11 02:51:17
/ BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion & X-Wing: CIS / WWX: Union
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Thanks for taking the time to read all this and helping me !