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Clearlly the PR Team messed up. it happens

Hang on so the hive guard is a 3 wound t5 model with a 4+ save with basicly what is a missile launcher that ignores cover so at best its 12 missiles at 36" range artillery

pretty sick. but t5 3 wounds 4+ saves isnt really the best of stats at 300 points. thats a pretty significant points sink.

deep strike in a bunch of plasma, fusions or wound saturate with st5 burst cannons could probably save the day.

dunno about the points though but once you focus them out they start losing effectiveness.

 Desubot wrote:
Clearlly the PR Team messed up. it happens

Hang on so the hive guard is a 3 wound t5 model with a 4+ save with basicly what is a missile launcher that ignores cover so at best its 12 missiles at 36" range artillery

pretty sick. but t5 3 wounds 4+ saves isnt really the best of stats at 300 points. thats a pretty significant points sink.

deep strike in a bunch of plasma, fusions or wound saturate with st5 burst cannons could probably save the day.

dunno about the points though but once you focus them out they start losing effectiveness.

There are ways to deal with then but the point is on a pts to pts cost they are cheaper and more effective at shooting then Tau Elites or heavy's. 6 of them will put out more firepower then 3 crisis suits loaded with missile pods.

I put the Sniper drones and marksman in my list not because I believe they are good (trust me, I'm not THAT naive), but rather as a cheap way to fill force org slots to make a Brigade detachment. And that's all they're good for, really.

Pottsey wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Clearlly the PR Team messed up. it happens

Hang on so the hive guard is a 3 wound t5 model with a 4+ save with basicly what is a missile launcher that ignores cover so at best its 12 missiles at 36" range artillery

pretty sick. but t5 3 wounds 4+ saves isnt really the best of stats at 300 points. thats a pretty significant points sink.

deep strike in a bunch of plasma, fusions or wound saturate with st5 burst cannons could probably save the day.

dunno about the points though but once you focus them out they start losing effectiveness.

There are ways to deal with then but the point is on a pts to pts cost they are cheaper and more effective at shooting then Tau Elites or heavy's. 6 of them will put out more firepower then 3 crisis suits loaded with missile pods.

Point to point not ever army has equivalent slots in slots. some armies have more power in other slots than others.
others have less over all shooting but better assault or better defense.

cant expect everything to be 100% equivalent that would just make for a very boring mirror game with just different skins.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I put the Sniper drones and marksman in my list not because I believe they are good (trust me, I'm not THAT naive), but rather as a cheap way to fill force org slots to make a Brigade detachment. And that's all they're good for, really.

Fair enough, I'll grant you that they are a cheap way to fill out a brigade. I honestly wasn't thinking along those lines because based on my (admittedly limited) table time in 8th I haven't needed that many command points. Having only the 3 generic strategems to use them on and only being able to use one per phase, I have yet to encounter a situation where I thought to myself "Man, if only I had 12 command points right now", the 5-7 I get from running battalions, vanguards, outriders, etc. have been fine for me. That may change as I get more games in, and I'm sure it will once we get our codex and the unique Tau strategems that will come with it, but for now I'd rather spend those points filling out FW or Stealth teams or buying upgrades for various units and simply splitting my army up between multiple detachments to maximize command points. But that's just me, and I can definitely see where you're coming from.

 Desubot wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Clearlly the PR Team messed up. it happens

Hang on so the hive guard is a 3 wound t5 model with a 4+ save with basicly what is a missile launcher that ignores cover so at best its 12 missiles at 36" range artillery

pretty sick. but t5 3 wounds 4+ saves isnt really the best of stats at 300 points. thats a pretty significant points sink.

deep strike in a bunch of plasma, fusions or wound saturate with st5 burst cannons could probably save the day.

dunno about the points though but once you focus them out they start losing effectiveness.

There are ways to deal with then but the point is on a pts to pts cost they are cheaper and more effective at shooting then Tau Elites or heavy's. 6 of them will put out more firepower then 3 crisis suits loaded with missile pods.

Point to point not ever army has equivalent slots in slots. some armies have more power in other slots than others.
others have less over all shooting but better assault or better defense.

cant expect everything to be 100% equivalent that would just make for a very boring mirror game with just different skins.

While that's true what I was trying to get across is some CC army's seem to have better shooting options then Tau. You would expect Tau Elites and heavy's to be able to outshoot a CC army.

I cant say nids have always been a true CC army

they certainly have had editions where focus was on big nids with big guns.

i honestly cant think of any true CC army..... daemons?

yeah i think daemons might be the only one

certainly some are better than otheres in some way shape or form but they all have shooting to a fairly diverse range.

Uh, what are Tau good at right now again? Are they a shooty army? A CC one? Definitely not a psychic one...

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Uh, what are Tau good at right now again? Are they a shooty army? A CC one? Definitely not a psychic one...

One of the best general infantry weapons

defensive wound allocation shenanigans

Special weapons units that can come bristling with weapons that can deep strike and have multi wounds

Near army wide captain buff (rerolls of 1s) on a 4+

relatively cheap alternative troops.

i probably missed something.

people dont like it but a riptide while offensively wont be outputting equally pointed out heavy slot, they also survive far better.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Uh, what are Tau good at right now again? Are they a shooty army? A CC one? Definitely not a psychic one...

Commanders and drones, and I guess FW and vespid.

I really enjoyed the freedom of 4 Remora Stealth Drones and a Coldstar Commander roaming the board.....(would be even better if Seeker missiles hit better)

Ohh how are remoras

thats my favorite tau model. next to the old non potato stealth suits.

 Desubot wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Uh, what are Tau good at right now again? Are they a shooty army? A CC one? Definitely not a psychic one...

One of the best general infantry weapons

defensive wound allocation shenanigans

Special weapons units that can come bristling with weapons that can deep strike and have multi wounds

Near army wide captain buff (rerolls of 1s) on a 4+

relatively cheap alternative troops.

i probably missed something.

people dont like it but a riptide while offensively wont be outputting equally pointed out heavy slot, they also survive far better.

So nothing, essentially. A whole lot of nothing compared to almost every other faction's strengths and specialities. Seriously.

Necrons - Reanimation Protocols, solid shooting, well-balanced.
Dark Eldar - Army-wide -1 modifier, high mobility, high firepower (Dark Lances)
Space Marines - need I go into this one?
Eldar - same as above, still strong, great psychic and mobility, great firepower
Tyranids - powerful in all regards, people are going crazy for Nids right now
IG - same as above
SoB - same as above
GK - stronger than expected, mostly due to Smite and multiple wounds on Termies...and Draigo. GK are better than Tau right now.
Orks - possibly the only faction worse than us, but at least they get a psychic phase and strong CC.
Daemons - some broken lists, strong psychic and CC
CSM - better than in 7th, more of a jack of all trades right now

Maybe I forgot someone, but all of these armies, Orks excepted, have something they excel in beyond "best infantry gun (debatable)".

Necrons -Exceptionally limited options
Dark Eldar - -1 modifier off setting overall low toughness
Space Marines - no one was surprised
Eldar - eldar usually are good Limited ST9 shooting but thats for every non imperium
Tyranids - finally glad for them, they have been in the dumpster for so long it must be surprising
IG - its less IG more like everyone is spamming scions. people still bitch about how bad lemon russes are
SoB - cant say anything because i have yet to look into them
GK - Not surprising ether and its funny because all the people that said terminators are still useless.
Orks - have not looked into
Daemons - what did they break this time?
CSM - overall better than 7th roughly in line with SM which is good.

Its usually 1 or 2 really good things that are getting spammed right now

that's less a problem with the Tau codex (ok yeah some things definitely have problems (fething seeker missiles are 100% hot garbage)) but more a problem with outlines being overall good

Pottsey wrote:

 Desubot wrote:


What I find interesting about snipers is this from the Tau preview at GW. “Lastly, I want to talk about Sniper Drones. When paired with the T’au HQ’s such as the Cadre Fireblade they will bring down those pesky support characters with deadly efficiency even if they are hiding behind their infantry. The 48″ range on their Sniper weapons, plus their fast movement, means they will be filling those characters with lead (or plasma?) a lot faster than snipers from other factions.”

Yet in the codex Fireblade doesn’t work and they are useless for killing pesky support characters.

How do they actually compare to snipers from other factions?

 Desubot wrote:
Necrons -Exceptionally limited options
Dark Eldar - -1 modifier off setting overall low toughness
Space Marines - no one was surprised
Eldar - eldar usually are good Limited ST9 shooting but thats for every non imperium
Tyranids - finally glad for them, they have been in the dumpster for so long it must be surprising
IG - its less IG more like everyone is spamming scions. people still bitch about how bad lemon russes are
SoB - cant say anything because i have yet to look into them
GK - Not surprising ether and its funny because all the people that said terminators are still useless.
Orks - have not looked into
Daemons - what did they break this time?
CSM - overall better than 7th roughly in line with SM which is good.

Its usually 1 or 2 really good things that are getting spammed right now

that's less a problem with the Tau codex (ok yeah some things definitely have problems (fething seeker missiles are 100% hot garbage)) but more a problem with outlines being overall good

Actually GK terminators are rather bad. Paladins with their 3 wounds are so much better no one runs GK terminators even though they're troops.

EDIT: Or should I say that the internal balance is a bit shoddy.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Uh, what are Tau good at right now again? Are they a shooty army? A CC one? Definitely not a psychic one...

It seems immortal battlesuits as long as you have drones nearby.

So I saw someone bring this up on another forum (ATT), but what do we think about Heavy Gun Drones from FW? A drone with 2 BCs, so the same firepower as a regular Gun Drone, doesn't have Targeting Protocols so it doesn't have to shoot at the nearest enemy unit, still has Savior Protocols, and each one has 3 wounds a piece. Granted they are much more expensive than regular drones and can't be taken as an addition to a battlesuit or infantry unit, but they grant us much greater choice in target when shooting and, most importantly, can tank wounds much better than regular drones can. With the FAQ making Drones suffer mortal wounds for SP, having drones with multiple wounds is a god send. Suddenly that lascannon that rolled a 6 for damage is killing only 2 drones out of a unit rather than wiping out the entire squad. The only real issue is the price tag associated with them, but what do you guys think? Would a unit of these guys floating around a Commander or other battlesuit team be worthwhile, or should we just stick to regular old Gun Drones?

How a lascannon could kill 2 drones? It can kills only 1 model, no matter how much damage it does.

HGD have several problems:
- their markerlight cannot benefit the unit, while a mixed unit of marker drones and gun drone can.
- the model has been discontinued by FW
- 2 gun drones do the same job of 1 HGD for much less; 3 gun drones will have the same number of W and even more shooting. their only cons are morale (albeit what kills 1 HGD will kill the 3 drones) and having to fire at the closest target
- HGD takes up a heavy support slot instead of no slot or a fast attack one
- HGD can't be bought by suits, so no manta strike
- the minimum unit is composed by 2 models, costing 80p. you can take 10 gun drones at that cost and they'll do much more.
- HGD lack stable platform, so their markerlights fire at BS6+ if they move

Gun Drones are the best cost-effective model in our entire line. HGD can't come close to them at all

Tau Tier List - Subject to change.

HQs
SS - Commander
A - Coldstar, Longstrike
B - Fireblade, Aun'va, Shadowsun
C - Ethereal, Fightsight, Darkstrider
D - Aun'Shi

Units
SSS - Gun Drones
S - Pathfinders, Vespids
A - Hounds, Ghostkeel, HRR Broadside
B - Strike Team, Breacher Team, Krootox, Crisis, Hammerheads
C - Sunshark, Carnivores, Stealth Suits, Crisis Guards, Piranha, Devilfish, HYMP Broadside
D - Shaper, Marker Drones, Stormsurge
E - Razorshark, Sniper Drones
F - Riptide, Shield Drones, Firesight, Skyray

Weapons
S - Fusion Blaster
A - Cyclic Ion Blaster
B - Flamer
C - Missile Pods, Plasma Rifle, Burst Cannon
D - Airburst Fragmentation Projector

Pottsey wrote:

18” range, 3 shots per model and reroll 1’s when in a large squad. They can be made to deepstrike so go first shooting 90shots at BS 4. They can wipe out a Firewarror squad before it even gets chance to fire back. If that wasn’t bad enough for less then 300pts of Hive guard the nids can outshoot at range any 300pts of Tau Elite or hvy units. Combine the gaunts with hive guard and the nids can put enough more then enough firepower to rival if not outshoot Tau.

A few things worth noting:

1. Termagaunts/Devilgaunts (Termagaunts with devourer) re-roll 1s To Wound when in groups of 20 or more, not To Hit. They can re-roll 1s To Hit if they're snuggling up next to a 200+ point HQ unit, the Tervigon.

2. Tyranids have two options for deep-striking Gaunts. One is the Trygon/Trygon Prime which is just as or even more expensive than a Tervigon. Tyrranocyte is the other option, but that has a maximum capacity of 20.

3. A Termagaunt with a Devourer costs exactly as much as a standard Fire Warrior, but has 6+ save on the same toughness. If, as in your scenario, I am paying close to 500 points for the privilege of having that 30-strong squad in a Trygon I had better be able to murder a Fire Warrior squad in a turn of shooting.

4. Hive Guard have lower Rate of Fire, AP. and range than a standard missile pod.

If a Tau player is getting outshot by Tyranids, it's time to take a long hard look at what exactly you brought to the table to counter massed infantry and multi-sound models.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

18” range, 3 shots per model and reroll 1’s when in a large squad. They can be made to deepstrike so go first shooting 90shots at BS 4. They can wipe out a Firewarror squad before it even gets chance to fire back. If that wasn’t bad enough for less then 300pts of Hive guard the nids can outshoot at range any 300pts of Tau Elite or hvy units. Combine the gaunts with hive guard and the nids can put enough more then enough firepower to rival if not outshoot Tau.

A few things worth noting:

1. Termagaunts/Devilgaunts (Termagaunts with devourer) re-roll 1s To Wound when in groups of 20 or more, not To Hit. They can re-roll 1s To Hit if they're snuggling up next to a 200+ point HQ unit, the Tervigon.

2. Tyranids have two options for deep-striking Gaunts. One is the Trygon/Trygon Prime which is just as or even more expensive than a Tervigon. Tyrranocyte is the other option, but that has a maximum capacity of 20.

3. A Termagaunt with a Devourer costs exactly as much as a standard Fire Warrior, but has 6+ save on the same toughness. If, as in your scenario, I am paying close to 500 points for the privilege of having that 30-strong squad in a Trygon I had better be able to murder a Fire Warrior squad in a turn of shooting.

4. Hive Guard have lower Rate of Fire, AP. and range than a standard missile pod.

If a Tau player is getting outshot by Tyranids, it's time to take a long hard look at what exactly you brought to the table to counter massed infantry and multi-sound models.

Pts to pts cost they do not. Impaler cannon is 36” 2shots, S8, -2AP and D3 damage ignore cover and LOS. Isn’t that better then a missile pod? Fair point on the rest. Although I was talking about our Elites and hvys long range shooting. For 300pts what Elites or hvy do we have that can match that shooting firepower at range?

Pottsey wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

18” range, 3 shots per model and reroll 1’s when in a large squad. They can be made to deepstrike so go first shooting 90shots at BS 4. They can wipe out a Firewarror squad before it even gets chance to fire back. If that wasn’t bad enough for less then 300pts of Hive guard the nids can outshoot at range any 300pts of Tau Elite or hvy units. Combine the gaunts with hive guard and the nids can put enough more then enough firepower to rival if not outshoot Tau.

4. Hive Guard have lower Rate of Fire, AP. and range than a standard missile pod.

If a Tau player is getting outshot by Tyranids, it's time to take a long hard look at what exactly you brought to the table to counter massed infantry and multi-sound models.

Pts to pts cost they do not. Impaler cannon is 36” 2shots, S8, -2AP and D3 damage ignore cover and LOS. Isn’t that better then a missile pod? Fair point on the rest. Although I was talking about our Elites and hvys long range shooting. For 300pts what Elites or hvy do we have that can match that shooting firepower at range?

Crisis Suit + ATS - 98 Points - BS+4 Assault 4, S7, AP-2, d3 Damage
Hive Guard - 48 Points - BS+3 Heavy 2, S8, AP-2, d3 Damage - ignores LOS, ignores cover saves

Crisis Suits do have a mobility advantage, but overall Hive Guard are definitely better.

To be fair, this comparison doesn't sound so bad.
2 hive guards shoot better than a crisis, true, but they lose on a lot of mobility and durability (nids don't have drones).

Also, don't forget that hive guards require a synapse nearby (8") or they can only shoot at the nearest target, and have really low discipline.

All in all this seems balanced.

It's like the comparison with devilgants, sure they shoot 90 str4 shots at bs4+, but they cost 240 points + 210 points of delivery for a unit that the next turn is clearly gone from the table (t3 6+).

Not saying that T'au are fine, but it seems to me that people here are finding problems where there are none.

Spoletta wrote:
To be fair, this comparison doesn't sound so bad.
2 hive guards shoot better than a crisis, true, but they lose on a lot of mobility and durability (nids don't have drones).

Also, don't forget that hive guards require a synapse nearby (8") or they can only shoot at the nearest target, and have really low discipline.

All in all this seems balanced.

It's like the comparison with devilgants, sure they shoot 90 str4 shots at bs4+, but they cost 240 points + 210 points of delivery for a unit that the next turn is clearly gone from the table (t3 6+).

Not saying that T'au are fine, but it seems to me that people here are finding problems where there are none.

This does seem right. The suits get to deep strike as well, so they should really get to shoot first.

I'm not sure either unit is great, but the Tyrannid one isn't better.

I do think that a lot of the comparisons people are making are questionable, because they ignore range. Missile pods have always been good because they let you hit the enemy from somewhere relatively safe. That tends to mean you'll fire more times in an average battle, because you'll live longer. It's very difficult to compare these kinds of units though. And sometimes you do just need to hit something with 8 fusion blasters to make a problem go away in a hurry.

 Talamare wrote:
Tau Tier List - Subject to change.

HQs
C - Ethereal, Darkstrider

I don't think Darkstrider should be that down. He helps units near him leave combat and shoot again, has BS2+ ML and can help 1 unit reduce T of enemy

 Talamare wrote:
Tau Tier List - Subject to change.

Weapons
S - Fusion Blaster
A - Cyclic Ion Blaster
B - Flamer
C - Missile Pods, Plasma Rifle, Burst Cannon
D - Airburst Fragmentation Projector

Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.


Otherwise your list is accurate for right now. Should add in the FW units at some point too.

What do people think About running multiple units
Of pathfinders? Maybe like 8 man units or so with three special weapons?

I think I like ion rifles more than rail rifles because you can over charge on marked targets and they 2-3 ions will be way cheaper than rails on them.

I've been running 2 10 man units, both with 3 Ion rifles. They are alright. I usually shoot the rifles at units that will certainly take wounds from them to force ld checks or to finish off bigger targets.

Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.

Plasma is a trap weapon for us. It seems useful, but according to the numbers, it definitely is not. R'Varnas put the final nail in plasma's coffin. With an ATS, they're basically putting out a ton of plasma damage per turn at range on a really durable platform. It's a little difficult to quantify how much better R'Varnas are than plasma suits, but with average shots and maximum damage, the cost is approximately equal between Crisis Suits and R'Varnas. Given the durability differential, that looks awfully bad for the suits.