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Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.
Plasma is a trap weapon for us. It seems useful, but according to the numbers, it definitely is not. R'Varnas put the final nail in plasma's coffin. With an ATS, they're basically putting out a ton of plasma damage per turn at range on a really durable platform. It's a little difficult to quantify how much better R'Varnas are than plasma suits, but with average shots and maximum damage, the cost is approximately equal between Crisis Suits and R'Varnas. Given the durability differential, that looks awfully bad for the suits.
That durability differential is itself difficult to quantify because R'Varnas can be shut down, and cannot deep strike. They do of course have a higher toughness, but they have to deploy on the ground. Crisis suits with drone support are really quite tough, and can use their jet packs to get out of combat and shoot again.
That said I do tend to agree that plasma is simply a worse choice for suits than CIBs. CIBs are a far better option for killing heavy infantry, not least because they are at full power 6" further away.
You might be right. I am still assembling my r'varna so I haven't tested it out yet. The mobility of the suits might be better for objectives but then still probably better to just run ion with a couple fusion. Idk I am still going to try plasma suits for a bit and see how they go.
On another note I think I have had my highlight of 8th already. Last game my y'varha burnt a catalyst'd swarmlord down in overwatch with his flamer. Poor bug never even saw combat
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
That durability differential is itself difficult to quantify because R'Varnas can be shut down, and cannot deep strike. They do of course have a higher toughness, but they have to deploy on the ground. Crisis suits with drone support are really quite tough, and can use their jet packs to get out of combat and shoot again.
True, perhaps, but I'm not sold on hit-and-run tactics with Crisis Suits. They're too expensive and bad at combat to make that an effective option, in my opinion. They're not terribly likely to live against anything that wants to be in combat with them, anyway. Deep striking is nice, but with 60" range, I'm pretty confident that the R'Varna will find plenty of targets. Not having FLY sort of sucks, though.
Last game my y'varha burnt a catalyst'd swarmlord down in overwatch with his flamer. Poor bug never even saw combat
That's what he gets for charging an Y'Vahra. Those guys are for shooting down only, especially since they're going to back up and flame the piss out of you the next turn (again) if they live.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: Uh, what are Tau good at right now again? Are they a shooty army? A CC one? Definitely not a psychic one...
Well according to the fluff we did just lose an entire sphere expansion in the warp. So who knows what GW has intended for that hopefully psychics.
I'd say we are a strike army we need to hit hard and kill the ing thing we point our guns at in a turn.We are not experts at either, hopefully this is fixed whenever we get a codex. Right now I see T'au troops having a split mode. Some troops need to hold home objectives and slowly advance (if at all), namely Strike teams and BroadSides, Hammer Heads, and some Commander load outs. Then we have the hard strikers which consist of Commanders, XV8 drops (for what ever there worth), Piranhas with FB, Breachers, and Vespid. Lastly are the spit modes to advance and cause issue with the opponents forces Kroot, Ghostkeel, Stealth Teams, Drones, and Y'vahra.
Right now we are afforded some comfort in Hand to Hand and being able to just leave so charging to force and enemy choice in there turn is a thing.
Shoot them.
Shoot them some more.
Then ask the survivors to join the Greater Good.
So I just saw the ultramarine chapter tactic gives them pseudo fly on their infantry and dreads. So the tac and dev squads can fall back and shoot at -1. Seems pretty good, gives me hope that the tau book will give us something for all our jetpack units that need something. I just want jsj back GW is that so much to ask?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/14 14:14:15
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.
Plasma is a trap weapon for us. It seems useful, but according to the numbers, it definitely is not. R'Varnas put the final nail in plasma's coffin. With an ATS, they're basically putting out a ton of plasma damage per turn at range on a really durable platform. It's a little difficult to quantify how much better R'Varnas are than plasma suits, but with average shots and maximum damage, the cost is approximately equal between Crisis Suits and R'Varnas. Given the durability differential, that looks awfully bad for the suits.
I really really dislike what I perceive as a monomanaical fixation on finding good and bad units/weapons and ranking them in lists according to mathematical criteria, which makes no sense given that a great deal of things in this game cannot be mathematized at all, but I'll point out that plasma is the only weapon other than the missile pod that can shoot over 18" and hence the numbers show that it is infinitely more useful at that range than, for instance, the fusion blaster.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/14 14:24:04
Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.
Plasma is a trap weapon for us. It seems useful, but according to the numbers, it definitely is not. R'Varnas put the final nail in plasma's coffin. With an ATS, they're basically putting out a ton of plasma damage per turn at range on a really durable platform. It's a little difficult to quantify how much better R'Varnas are than plasma suits, but with average shots and maximum damage, the cost is approximately equal between Crisis Suits and R'Varnas. Given the durability differential, that looks awfully bad for the suits.
I really really dislike what I perceive as a monomanaical fixation on finding good and bad units/weapons and ranking them in lists according to mathematical criteria, which makes no sense given that a great deal of things in this game cannot be mathematized at all, but I'll point out that plasma is the only weapon other than the missile pod that can shoot over 18" and hence the numbers show that it is infinitely more useful at that range than, for instance, the fusion blaster.
Well sure, range is of course a big deal. It's a bit less of a big deal for crisis suits, who are fast and should probably always deep strike. At range, the R'Varna is clearly superior to crisis suits. Between 12 and 24" a crisis suit with triple plasma will do about 1 wound to most infantry, and sometimes they'll pass their save. Within 12 and 18" the CIB is way better, and this is a relatively safe place to be against stuff with a move of up to 6".
The fact is that you can sometimes calculate mathematically that some options are better than others. You can work out the amount of wounds caused on all kinds of targets, compared to the points spent on the unit doing the shooting. GW doesn't seem to have learned to do this, so for the time being there are often choices that are better than others.
FirePainter wrote: So I just saw the ultramarine chapter tactic gives them pseudo fly on their infantry and dreads. So the tac and dev squads can fall back and shoot at -1. Seems pretty good, gives me hope that the tau book will give us something for all our jetpack units that need something. I just want jsj back GW is that so much to ask?
Well, -2 for devs as they get another -1 from heavy weapons.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.
Plasma is a trap weapon for us. It seems useful, but according to the numbers, it definitely is not. R'Varnas put the final nail in plasma's coffin. With an ATS, they're basically putting out a ton of plasma damage per turn at range on a really durable platform. It's a little difficult to quantify how much better R'Varnas are than plasma suits, but with average shots and maximum damage, the cost is approximately equal between Crisis Suits and R'Varnas. Given the durability differential, that looks awfully bad for the suits.
A single crisis suit w/ Triple Plasma in double tap range costs 90pts/Wound inflicted to a T8 or T7 3+ Sv model; 60pts/Wound inflicted to a T6 3+ Sv model; 45pts/Wound inflicted to a T5 or a T4 3+ Sv model. This is regardless if mutli or single wound wound models.
A R'Varna w/ ATS and Nova active costs 75pts/Wound inflicted to a T8 or T7 3+ Sv model; 50pts/Wound inflicted to a T6 3+ Sv model; 37.5pts/Wound inflicted to a T5 or a T4 3+ Sv model. Assuming all multi wound models. VS Single Wound Marines, this jumps to 112pts/wound inflicted.
Both options however are well outperformed by Quad Fusion Commanders, HV9 Dual Fusion Cascades, Trip Fusion Suits, Fusion/Collider Ghostkeels, and Gun Drones even when outside of the 6-9" melta range.
It is unfortunate that the R'Varna performs so poorly for its points; I have a beautifully painted one that I used in 6th and 7th edition Apoc games as it was great for removing HP off of clumped up vehicles. Not anymore. Like my riptides, it will be staying on the shelf.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/14 15:32:46
FirePainter wrote: So I just saw the ultramarine chapter tactic gives them pseudo fly on their infantry and dreads. So the tac and dev squads can fall back and shoot at -1. Seems pretty good, gives me hope that the tau book will give us something for all our jetpack units that need something. I just want jsj back GW is that so much to ask?
Well, -2 for devs as they get another -1 from heavy weapons.
You mean the same as Tau shooting? I love how they're saying it's not that good, when a lot of people are complaining about all the Fly on Tau, none of which gets better than a 4+. Ultramarine's get fly but drop down to Tau effectiveness, and it's being considered bad.
Weapons
S - Fusion Blaster
A - Cyclic Ion Blaster
B - Flamer
C - Missile Pods, Plasma Rifle, Burst Cannon
D - Airburst Fragmentation Projector
Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.
Otherwise your list is accurate for right now. Should add in the FW units at some point too.
You're absolutely right that the Plasma Rifle is pretty good against MEQ and not bad versus Terminators. It performs acceptably against Hordes and Light (T5) Vehicles as well.
However, against Infantry (Including MEQ, but not TEQ) the ATS Burst Cannon does about the exact same and even better against Hordes.
While also having the advantage of being able to stand 18", making them significantly safer from changes.
On the other hand ATS MP performs better against Light Tanks (T6), and still acceptably against Infantry since it's still getting the 2 shots. AP-2 is more than enough for Hordes.
Overall the 3 weapons are roughly on par with each other (MP, PR, BC).
Flamers on the other hand are a Danger Close weapon, risky but the advantage of being able to shoot reliably multiple times per turn is pretty massive (Reliable Overwatch).
The Reliable Overwatch is the main reason it BARELY edged out a position above it's 3 Brothers.
Personally I'd move plasma rifles up to B. We may not be able to overcharge like imperium but it's a cheap way to get S6 AP -3. It still does a number on marines or other heavy infantry.
Plasma is a trap weapon for us. It seems useful, but according to the numbers, it definitely is not. R'Varnas put the final nail in plasma's coffin. With an ATS, they're basically putting out a ton of plasma damage per turn at range on a really durable platform. It's a little difficult to quantify how much better R'Varnas are than plasma suits, but with average shots and maximum damage, the cost is approximately equal between Crisis Suits and R'Varnas. Given the durability differential, that looks awfully bad for the suits.
3 Plasma Rifle on Crisis Suits is cheap and effective. They will be the cheapest go to weapon when Death Guard codex comes out. If you face them without plasma, good luck.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FirePainter wrote: The main issues I see for tau is a true horde army, like 120+ works or gants. I just don't know if we could kill enough in 5 turns to be able to fight for objs. Big flyer or Mister lists er can deal with via fusion or hammerheads. Elite infantry are dealt with by breachers or Plasms or just weight of fire.
Stealthsuits are one of the most improved units too. The -1 to hit at all times is amazing along with the toughness and extra wound from 7th. I've been running 8+ stealths so far and they never let me down
Stealthsuits are awsome in the new edition gotta admit. Im running 2 groups of 6, they are just as durable as space marine terminators imo, and put out great anti horde firepower.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/14 18:22:39
Seriusly, even if seekers did D3 damage, and kept the current price-I wouldn't take them.
Mostly because I can't even bother with markerlights. they are just a hassle, especially given how most benefits don't even apply a large portion of the time.
First marker is redundant if you got rerolls of 1 from one of many other sources like multi trackers, storm of fire, command link drone, sensor tower (who is in itself a markerlight!)
Second is meaningless unless you pack missiles, and as most people would agree, the missiles are not worth bothering with.
Third is useless if you pack rapid fire, in a montka aura, got a TL (any big suit would) or just stand still.
Forth does nothing unless you target has a cove bonus, but cover is less common in 8th, and can be negated by AP just as much.
And the fifth is pointless is you are a commander or longstrike-who are some of our best shooters to begin with-and while its freaking amazing for drones, you can't control who they shoot all that much, and investing THIS much into drone shots is madness...
The fact my tetras are rendered slowed by the FW index doesn't help the markerlight case.
I just can't justify taking any in the current state.
And with zero markers-missiles are out of the question.
The problem with tau isn't that we got nerfed way too hard, or that we can't make a viable list.
Its that just most of the index is useless junk, and there are only a handful of decent units, further condemned by the fact it plays nothing like how it played in the past.
Forget 7th late formation madness (retaliation cadre my beloved...), or even 6th with our power surge (and the annoying taunar), I'm talking 5th here.
Surrounding the enemy with stealth and crisis suits who are just out of reach, keeping out of sight and just making it hard to pin down and get a straight fight-having the battle lines blurred and mayham going on all over the place as shots are coming from all sides, that's just not a thing any more now that JSJ is gone.
Yea, I can drop anywhere, except I cant-because a key part of my "thing" was to drop INSIDE the enemy formations in order to get the perfect shot (fusion on tasty tank mostly), now a bubble wrap don't make it balsy to drop, it makes it outright impossible. so I drop in the outskirts of the general army.
Then I get assaulted because the enemy took casualties from behind-if the unit I shot it was even the one up front to begin with-and I can't move after shooting, plus there is a fair chance my suits are not even as fast as the enemy to begin with.
This isn't my tau.
This isn't the army i built into, invested in in it's lowest, and highest, and stuck with it's purity even when blending allies could bring me greater results (taudar traitors)
Its a playable army, if you are willing to go into spesific paths-but the enclaves battlesuit elite is just gone. I can't replicate it, I've got rules for the models, but these are not the same units any more.
Every model from 7th is playable in 8th as promised-but not every army. farsight enclaves was effectively removed from the list, as did many other tau variations.
If you played dirty, you're gone. anyone that doesn't favor a straight up sludge match is highly disappointed.
Amen to that.
I just hope that somehow GW listens to the multiple feedback from Tau players. I have no interest in having a tier 1 army, I rarely play games at all and let alone tournaments. But I want a playable army.
Having a bottom tier army hurts the Tau community. The problem is that, just like me, there are a lot of players who are influenced in their purchases by the actual rules, at least to a certain degree.
Let's hope that the game designers realize how much the Tau playerbase is being hurt, if they even care about it. If their marketing guys think that Tau sold too well in the last few years and cannibalized sales from other factions, let's brace for a few years of insignificance.
If all the FLG theory is true, I just hope that Matt Ward gets the job of writing our next Codex.
And to come back to the actual discussion: I think that the problem does not lie in the Commander itself. If the other battlesuits were costed and balanced appropriately (BS 3+ for example), we wouldn't have to spam Commanders.
As for how to balance them, I'd say limit the Commander to 3 weapons + 1 support system, bring all the suits to BS3+ and merge the first two ML effects (thus having a 1-4ML table). Then balance points accordingly.
I dont really understand wanting 3+ BS on all our stuff, just like space marines. Not gonna happen. There is a reason we have markerlight's, use them and get your 3+ with re roll 1's, or go play Space Marines and stop complaining. We are balanced because we dont have 3+ BS in our normal statline. If you dont like 4+ BS, then why did you buy a Tau army? We are not Space Marines. Also I dont spam commanders and I win plenty of games with just Crisis Suits and Markerlights.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/14 18:36:22
You're absolutely right that the Plasma Rifle is pretty good against MEQ and not bad versus Terminators. It performs acceptably against Hordes and Light (T5) Vehicles as well.
However, against Infantry (Including MEQ, but not TEQ) the ATS Burst Cannon does about the exact same and even better against Hordes.
While also having the advantage of being able to stand 18", making them significantly safer from changes.
On the other hand ATS MP performs better against Light Tanks (T6), and still acceptably against Infantry since it's still getting the 2 shots. AP-2 is more than enough for Hordes.
I would like to point out that this is not a fair comparison. You are comparing a PR by itself against BCs and MPs assisted by a support system, in this case ATS. Obviously any weapon supported by a support system is going to perform better than a weapon by itself, I don't think many players here would challenge that. If you're going to properly compare these weapons, you have to hold everything else equal. If the PR is going to be barebones, then the BC and MP have to be barebones as well. "But you should never take BCs or MPs without an ATS, therefore we have to use the ATS!" Fair enough, but in that case you need to give the PR an ATS as well. Or, since the ATS is not necessarily the best support system to pair with a PR, then figure out what the best support system would be and use that. Outside of that, it's not a fair comparison and any data we get from it or conclusions we draw from it will be at least partially incorrect.
Also should probably factor in points cost as well, seeing as a PR is 7 points cheaper than a BC with ATS, and 21 points cheaper than an MP with ATS.
Mobile Assault Cadre: 9,500 points (3,200 points fully painted)
Desubot wrote: Getting the +1 bs is fairly unreliable. but i dont understand the whole complaint about it.
i guess people just got way too used to easy +1
Because we're a shooting army that can't shoot? Are you guys really that confused about this?
6000 pts
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2500 pts
3000 pts
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Crusaderobr wrote: They will be the cheapest go to weapon when Death Guard codex comes out. If you face them without plasma, good luck..
You're not wrong that Plasma Rifles are uniquely amazing specifically against Plague Marines.
Tho to achieve that Amazing Status you need to be within 12" of said Plague Marines, otherwise you're performing worse than a Burst Cannon would.
In which case you're placing 300 points of Suits in tremendous Risk.
Actually speaking of Burst Cannons, another major aspect of a Death Guard list is the SPAM upon SPAM upon SPAM of the stupid Zombies.
Burst Cannons are actually pretty great against them too.
You're honestly better off running a few squads of RifleFinders to thin out Plague Marines than using Plasma Rifles.
You're absolutely right that the Plasma Rifle is pretty good against MEQ and not bad versus Terminators. It performs acceptably against Hordes and Light (T5) Vehicles as well.
However, against Infantry (Including MEQ, but not TEQ) the ATS Burst Cannon does about the exact same and even better against Hordes.
While also having the advantage of being able to stand 18", making them significantly safer from changes.
On the other hand ATS MP performs better against Light Tanks (T6), and still acceptably against Infantry since it's still getting the 2 shots. AP-2 is more than enough for Hordes.
I would like to point out that this is not a fair comparison. You are comparing a PR by itself against BCs and MPs assisted by a support system, in this case ATS. Obviously any weapon supported by a support system is going to perform better than a weapon by itself, I don't think many players here would challenge that. If you're going to properly compare these weapons, you have to hold everything else equal. If the PR is going to be barebones, then the BC and MP have to be barebones as well. "But you should never take BCs or MPs without an ATS, therefore we have to use the ATS!" Fair enough, but in that case you need to give the PR an ATS as well. Or, since the ATS is not necessarily the best support system to pair with a PR, then figure out what the best support system would be and use that. Outside of that, it's not a fair comparison and any data we get from it or conclusions we draw from it will be at least partially incorrect.
Also should probably factor in points cost as well, seeing as a PR is 7 points cheaper than a BC with ATS, and 21 points cheaper than an MP with ATS.
I'm factoring in costs, and I'm comparing them fairly because I'm giving it a support system.
In exchange Plasma Rifles are literally gaining additional shots.
I'm not doing 1 Burst Cannon + ATS vs 1 Plasma Rifle
I'm doing BS+4 2 Burst Cannons + ATS vs 3 Plasma Rifles.
or BS+4 2 Missile Pods + ATS vs 3 Plasma Rifles
Because that's the loadout on the Crisis Suit. That is literally the option we are given.
If I were to do BS+4 2 Burst Cannons + ATS vs 2 Plasma Rifles + ATS...
Well, you just made the Plasma Rifle even weaker! Since there are VERY VERY few targets in which that's optimal against.
There are no other Support System that can increase offensive capabilities. (Well... VT, but that's even more situational)
(I'm also comparing how they perform on a Monat, just didn't feel like repeating myself)
Crusaderobr wrote: They will be the cheapest go to weapon when Death Guard codex comes out. If you face them without plasma, good luck..
You're not wrong that Plasma Rifles are uniquely amazing specifically against Plague Marines. Tho to achieve that Amazing Status you need to be within 12" of said Plague Marines, otherwise you're performing worse than a Burst Cannon would. In which case you're placing 300 points of Suits in tremendous Risk.
Actually speaking of Burst Cannons, another major aspect of a Death Guard list is the SPAM upon SPAM upon SPAM of the stupid Zombies. Burst Cannons are actually pretty great against them too.
You're honestly better off running a few squads of RifleFinders to thin out Plague Marines than using Plasma Rifles.
To be fair Tau have always been the army of target priority and focusing down a threat one at a time. proper use of deep striking positioning and deleting the target is how they always played.
oh god it reminds me of 5th and how hard that was.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/14 18:56:28
Desubot wrote: Getting the +1 bs is fairly unreliable. but i dont understand the whole complaint about it.
i guess people just got way too used to easy +1
For me personally, its honestly more of a fluff complaint then anything else (Personally my opinion is that all Shas'Vre models should get BS 3+, not all battlesuits or the entire army). Shas'Vres have, at minimum, 8 years of combat and military experience, not counting their training through childhood. They are the best soldiers the Tau have to offer, aside from Shas'Os and Fireblades. And yet in crunch they shoot the exact same as a Fire Warrior on his first day of service. A Guard Veteran is described in fluff as being a survivor or what, one or two campaigns or something like that? And to reflect that they are better shots ingame than regular Guardsmen. But the Tau's most seasoned veterans never become better shots until the day they are promoted to Shas'O, at which point they magically become twice as good at shooting on the spot?
Of course, fluff arguments can never justify rules changes, so I would simply say that in rules terms, I think we're the only army to have such a drastic jump in efficiency between our HQs (BS 2+) and the rest of our army (mostly BS 4+). Having some sense of progression would be nice, especially since the units I personally am advocating for having better BS universally got much more expensive and it has become so much harder to buff our shooting at all.
Mobile Assault Cadre: 9,500 points (3,200 points fully painted)
I don't think Darkstrider should be that down. He helps units near him leave combat and shoot again, has BS2+ ML and can help 1 unit reduce T of enemy
The reason hes so low is that firewarriors are a C troop and drone already have the fly special rule. The firecast is just better - gives drones more shooting - still has bs2 marker light AND he has a 4+ save compared to a 5+.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Desubot wrote: Getting the +1 bs is fairly unreliable. but i dont understand the whole complaint about it.
i guess people just got way too used to easy +1
For me personally, its honestly more of a fluff complaint then anything else (Personally my opinion is that all Shas'Vre models should get BS 3+, not all battlesuits or the entire army). Shas'Vres have, at minimum, 8 years of combat and military experience, not counting their training through childhood. They are the best soldiers the Tau have to offer, aside from Shas'Os and Fireblades. And yet in crunch they shoot the exact same as a Fire Warrior on his first day of service. A Guard Veteran is described in fluff as being a survivor or what, one or two campaigns or something like that? And to reflect that they are better shots ingame than regular Guardsmen. But the Tau's most seasoned veterans never become better shots until the day they are promoted to Shas'O, at which point they magically become twice as good at shooting on the spot?
Of course, fluff arguments can never justify rules changes, so I would simply say that in rules terms, I think we're the only army to have such a drastic jump in efficiency between our HQs (BS 2+) and the rest of our army (mostly BS 4+). Having some sense of progression would be nice, especially since the units I personally am advocating for having better BS universally got much more expensive and it has become so much harder to buff our shooting at all.
Desubot wrote: Getting the +1 bs is fairly unreliable. but i dont understand the whole complaint about it.
i guess people just got way too used to easy +1
Thanks, your comment finally made me realise what had really been bugging me about the new marker light table; it's the loss of flexibility.
Previously I could choose what I wanted those marker lights to do, depending on the situation; for example if I want to guarantee re-rolls, I'd need to shoot 3-4 marker lights at a target. However they might all hit, which means I suddenly get four marker lights on a target, but if it is in the open and I only want to shoot rapid fire or assault weapons then two (or three if no missiles are available) of them are wasted. Under the previous rules those lights would still be useful to boost BS (or under the old-old rules, penalise leadership for morale checks, which would be awesome in this edition). Now I either have to chance yet more marker lights (if I have them) to gamble on getting 5 and a mediocre +1 to hit, or suck up the fact that my good fortune has done absolutely nothing to benefit me.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Crusaderobr wrote: They will be the cheapest go to weapon when Death Guard codex comes out. If you face them without plasma, good luck..
You're not wrong that Plasma Rifles are uniquely amazing specifically against Plague Marines.
You're honestly better off running a few squads of RifleFinders to thin out Plague Marines than using Plasma Rifles.
Your statements are very conflicting. Can pathfinders help thin a squad of plague marines? Absolutely. Are they better than a 3x plasma Crisis squad? Probably not. Burst Cannons are perfect for those stupid Pox Walkers, that we can easily agree on.
Desubot wrote: Getting the +1 bs is fairly unreliable. but i dont understand the whole complaint about it.
i guess people just got way too used to easy +1
Because we're a shooting army that can't shoot? Are you guys really that confused about this?
IG is a shooting army with 4+ to hit
are they a bad shooting army?
(besides scions whom are fairly undercoated for what they are doing and the mobility they come with)
No, but their costs are reduced to justify their BS+4
While we somehow pay more than Space Marines for our Guns
Not to mention most of their Elite Options have BS+3... and they can take Heavy Weapons for insanely platforms cheap.
I think most of our shooting is fine right now (a few outliers, but there always is) but our costs are definitely too high.
To be fair Tau have always been the army of target priority and focusing down a threat one at a time. proper use of deep striking positioning and deleting the target is how they always played.
oh god it reminds me of 5th and how hard that was.
(besides scions whom are fairly undercoated for what they are doing and the mobility they come with)
IG have always been about volume of fire; they are a horde shooting army that succeeds by putting out a ridiculous amount of mediocre shooting.
Tau are supposed to be about using precision, high effectiveness firepower; absolutely nailing a few targets through combined arms tactics, be that marker light support, commander/ethereal/Fireblade buffs, or simple high-mobility hit and fade attacks from multiple sources.
The first one has been seriously nerfed, the second and third ones are suffering because although we still have buffs and mobility, our core units have poor cost/capability balance in the first place, so you need to use all of the tricks to get them back to being average, rather than starting from average and using the tricks to win.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
(besides scions whom are fairly undercoated for what they are doing and the mobility they come with)
IG have always been about volume of fire; they are a horde shooting army that succeeds by putting out a ridiculous amount of mediocre shooting.
Tau are supposed to be about using precision, high effectiveness firepower; absolutely nailing a few targets through combined arms tactics, be that marker light support, commander/ethereal/Fireblade buffs, or simple high-mobility hit and fade attacks from multiple sources.
The first one has been seriously nerfed, the second and third ones are suffering because although we still have buffs and mobility, our core units have poor cost/capability balance in the first place, so you need to use all of the tricks to get them back to being average, rather than starting from average and using the tricks to win.
Precision in the sense that the guns in general are better, longer range, better output sure. not in the sense that you are hitting better unless you are commuting markers to them. thats how they were previous
Crusaderobr wrote: They will be the cheapest go to weapon when Death Guard codex comes out. If you face them without plasma, good luck..
You're not wrong that Plasma Rifles are uniquely amazing specifically against Plague Marines.
Tho to achieve that Amazing Status you need to be within 12" of said Plague Marines, otherwise you're performing worse than a Burst Cannon would.
In which case you're placing 300 points of Suits in tremendous Risk.
Actually speaking of Burst Cannons, another major aspect of a Death Guard list is the SPAM upon SPAM upon SPAM of the stupid Zombies.
Burst Cannons are actually pretty great against them too.
You're honestly better off running a few squads of RifleFinders to thin out Plague Marines than using Plasma Rifles.
You're absolutely right that the Plasma Rifle is pretty good against MEQ and not bad versus Terminators. It performs acceptably against Hordes and Light (T5) Vehicles as well.
However, against Infantry (Including MEQ, but not TEQ) the ATS Burst Cannon does about the exact same and even better against Hordes.
While also having the advantage of being able to stand 18", making them significantly safer from changes.
On the other hand ATS MP performs better against Light Tanks (T6), and still acceptably against Infantry since it's still getting the 2 shots. AP-2 is more than enough for Hordes.
I would like to point out that this is not a fair comparison. You are comparing a PR by itself against BCs and MPs assisted by a support system, in this case ATS. Obviously any weapon supported by a support system is going to perform better than a weapon by itself, I don't think many players here would challenge that. If you're going to properly compare these weapons, you have to hold everything else equal. If the PR is going to be barebones, then the BC and MP have to be barebones as well. "But you should never take BCs or MPs without an ATS, therefore we have to use the ATS!" Fair enough, but in that case you need to give the PR an ATS as well. Or, since the ATS is not necessarily the best support system to pair with a PR, then figure out what the best support system would be and use that. Outside of that, it's not a fair comparison and any data we get from it or conclusions we draw from it will be at least partially incorrect.
Also should probably factor in points cost as well, seeing as a PR is 7 points cheaper than a BC with ATS, and 21 points cheaper than an MP with ATS.
I'm factoring in costs, and I'm comparing them fairly because I'm giving it a support system.
In exchange Plasma Rifles are literally gaining additional shots.
I'm not doing 1 Burst Cannon + ATS vs 1 Plasma Rifle
I'm doing BS+4 2 Burst Cannons + ATS vs 3 Plasma Rifles.
or BS+4 2 Missile Pods + ATS vs 3 Plasma Rifles
Because that's the loadout on the Crisis Suit. That is literally the option we are given.
If I were to do BS+4 2 Burst Cannons + ATS vs 2 Plasma Rifles + ATS...
Well, you just made the Plasma Rifle even weaker! Since there are VERY VERY few targets in which that's optimal against.
There are no other Support System that can increase offensive capabilities. (Well... VT, but that's even more situational)
(I'm also comparing how they perform on a Monat, just didn't feel like repeating myself)
There also used to be the support system for suits that gave them +1bs back in 4th. It was called targeting array and that wasn't broken then. Our "elite" battlesuits don't feel elite except for their numbers which got even smaller this edition. Getting to bring 3 guns and actually use them is great but hitting on 4s is a big bummer. Crisis teams do work for sure but idk they just don't feel like elite precision killers as much anymore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/14 19:36:56
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
Crusaderobr wrote: They will be the cheapest go to weapon when Death Guard codex comes out. If you face them without plasma, good luck..
You're not wrong that Plasma Rifles are uniquely amazing specifically against Plague Marines.
You're honestly better off running a few squads of RifleFinders to thin out Plague Marines than using Plasma Rifles.
Your statements are very conflicting. Can pathfinders help thin a squad of plague marines? Absolutely. Are they better than a 3x plasma Crisis squad? Probably not. Burst Cannons are perfect for those stupid Pox Walkers, that we can easily agree on.
Edit
I want to clarify that the Crisis Suits have a ton of advantages such as vastly increased mobility and survivability.
However the Pathfinders also carry a ton of advantages, such as direct access to 2 Markerlight and Grav Drones.
Also -
Ion 30 - 1 * 3 * 2 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 0.66
Which doesn't /sound/ amazing, but it's only 36 points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/14 21:16:39
Crusaderobr wrote: They will be the cheapest go to weapon when Death Guard codex comes out. If you face them without plasma, good luck..
You're not wrong that Plasma Rifles are uniquely amazing specifically against Plague Marines.
You're honestly better off running a few squads of RifleFinders to thin out Plague Marines than using Plasma Rifles.
Your statements are very conflicting. Can pathfinders help thin a squad of plague marines? Absolutely. Are they better than a 3x plasma Crisis squad? Probably not. Burst Cannons are perfect for those stupid Pox Walkers, that we can easily agree on.
Well of course 3 special weapons guys that normally belong in a squad are gonna win out against a single suit, you didnt need to math hammer that particular scenario. The squad is quite good vs plague marines. 3 Crisis with 3x plasma manta striking will still ruin a squad of plague marines day.
Forest hunter sept ~3500 
guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
ing thing we point our guns at in a turn.We are not experts at either, hopefully this is fixed whenever we get a codex. Right now I see T'au troops having a split mode. Some troops need to hold home objectives and slowly advance (if at all), namely Strike teams and BroadSides, Hammer Heads, and some Commander load outs. Then we have the hard strikers which consist of Commanders, XV8 drops (for what ever there worth), Piranhas with 
Mobile Assault Cadre: 9,500 points (3,200 points fully painted)
849 points/ 15 SWC 
2000 pts
