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 Fueli wrote:
Pathfinders are squishy but he probably had 2 squads of them in the Devilfish. We also have to keep in mind that this guy is an excellent player. I would love to see his thoughts and maybe tournament report.

If I was him, I would put the 10 Drones in the Devil Fish with the Fireblade

Who cares about the Pathfinders being soft, they are super cheap

Them drawing fire is a benefit.

What do you think of using the alternative hammerheads now that they got their points fixed. I could seem some fun in using the twin heavy burst cannon one, with longstrike support and a single marker light you would have 16 S6 ap-1 shots hitting on a 2+ with a re-roll.

The rest still seem a bit lackluster for their firepower, although the bombardment version seems a lot better than the HYMP broadside, for 37 points you get better movement, more than double the durability and better accuracy although you lose out on the option for ATS

 Talamare wrote:

 Fueli wrote:
Pathfinders are squishy but he probably had 2 squads of them in the Devilfish. We also have to keep in mind that this guy is an excellent player. I would love to see his thoughts and maybe tournament report.

If I was him, I would put the 10 Drones in the Devil Fish with the Fireblade

Who cares about the Pathfinders being soft, they are super cheap

Them drawing fire is a benefit.

Just read from ATT that that is exactly what he did. And agreed on Pathfinders being cheap.

 Talamare wrote:



I think 2 shots for 18 points at 24" S5 AP0 is worse than basic Fire Warriors who do it at 30" for 16 points.

In terms of damage output at this range, yes, but they are more mobile than Fire Warriors and, more to the point, have 1 shot at 48".

If you stick them near someone with a Drone Controller, they're hitting at 3+ with their marksman.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Talamare wrote:



I think 2 shots for 18 points at 24" S5 AP0 is worse than basic Fire Warriors who do it at 30" for 16 points.

In terms of damage output at this range, yes, but they are more mobile than Fire Warriors and, more to the point, have 1 shot at 48".

If you stick them near someone with a Drone Controller, they're hitting at 3+ with their marksman.

"If you invest more points into the unit that you don't need to invest in another unit, and compared the unit you invested in to the unit you didn't, you can become slightly worse in comparison instead of plain old completely worse in every concievable way!"

Amazing insight.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:


"If you invest more points into the unit that you don't need to invest in another unit, and compared the unit you invested in to the unit you didn't, you can become slightly worse in comparison instead of plain old completely worse in every concievable way!"

Amazing insight.

I'm trying to find their function by looking at what distinguishes them from other units, not claiming brilliant insight.

 Dantioch wrote:
What do you think of using the alternative hammerheads now that they got their points fixed. I could seem some fun in using the twin heavy burst cannon one, with longstrike support and a single marker light you would have 16 S6 ap-1 shots hitting on a 2+ with a re-roll.

The rest still seem a bit lackluster for their firepower, although the bombardment version seems a lot better than the HYMP broadside, for 37 points you get better movement, more than double the durability and better accuracy although you lose out on the option for ATS

The Twin Plasma Cannon seems much better then the Ion Cannon, and fills a roll that Tau weapons seem to lack.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:


"If you invest more points into the unit that you don't need to invest in another unit, and compared the unit you invested in to the unit you didn't, you can become slightly worse in comparison instead of plain old completely worse in every concievable way!"

Amazing insight.

I'm trying to find their function by looking at what distinguishes them from other units, not claiming brilliant insight.

Then look to what distinguishes the unit (its ability to snipe), not its ability to compete slightly less poorly than "dumpster fire status" with our basic troop unit that costs less than half the points BEFORE you invest in a Firesight Marksman.

Because it doesn't compete in terms of efficient dakka against ANY other target. If they aren't firing at characters, they're firing inefficient guns inefficiently (or slightly less inefficiently when boosted by a FM). If they are firing at characters, they're still probably inefficient firing platforms. If you run out of characters to shoot, you either brought way too many Sniper Drones (and the non-character elements of your opponent army will end up steamrolling through your army due to so many points being put into inefficient firepower) or your enemy brought too few characters (which could go either way, depending on how character-dependent the units he brought are).

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:


"If you invest more points into the unit that you don't need to invest in another unit, and compared the unit you invested in to the unit you didn't, you can become slightly worse in comparison instead of plain old completely worse in every concievable way!"

Amazing insight.

I'm trying to find their function by looking at what distinguishes them from other units, not claiming brilliant insight.

Then look to what distinguishes the unit (its ability to snipe), not its ability to compete slightly less poorly than "dumpster fire status" with our basic troop unit that costs less than half the points BEFORE you invest in a Firesight Marksman.

Because it doesn't compete in terms of efficient dakka against ANY other target. If they aren't firing at characters, they're firing inefficient guns inefficiently (or slightly less inefficiently when boosted by a FM). If they are firing at characters, they're still probably inefficient firing platforms. If you run out of characters to shoot, you either brought way too many Sniper Drones (and the non-character elements of your opponent army will end up steamrolling through your army due to so many points being put into inefficient firepower) or your enemy brought too few characters (which could go either way, depending on how character-dependent the units he brought are).

Actually, what I am looking at it is both what differentiates it from other Tau units, and what differentiates it from other snipers, and in doing so attempt to figure out how you're supposed to use it/how it can be used.

In the first category, we have:

It's more or less a gun drone with BS4+ and 48" range that can shoot characters.

In the second category, we have:

It can move 8", fly, has 48" range rather than the 36" standard, and is RF1 rather than Heavy 1 (in all cases, I think, other than Deathmarks), meaning that it can fire effectively while moving.

Alcibiades wrote:

Actually, what I am looking at it is both what differentiates it from other Tau units, and what differentiates it from other snipers, and in doing so attempt to figure out how you're supposed to use it/how it can be used.

In the first category, we have:

It's more or less a gun drone with BS4+ and 48" range that can shoot characters.

In the second category, we have:

It can move 8", fly, has 48" range rather than the 36" standard, and is RF1 rather than Heavy 1 (in all cases, I think, other than Deathmarks), meaning that it can fire effectively while moving.

So you're saying it suffers from Tactical Squad problems
Buying too much garbage it doesn't use

The truth is 1 shot at 48" doesn't do anything.
BS4 - 1 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 67% chance of failure before the enemies armor is even considered
Even vs a Guardsman = Nearly 80% chance of failure.
It takes nearly 5 Sniper Drones to average 1 Dead Guardsman per turn.

If you want a STRONG 48" Gun, get a Krootox. Those guys are pretty great.

The FW FAQ is great by me. I'm glad they cleared up some common questions. A few thoughts:

1) The Hammerheads basically completely invalidate Broadsides. Why pay ~210pts for a HYMP Broadside when you can have double the wounds, an extra T, and probably hit on 2+ instead of 4+ thanks to Longstrike for another 30 pts. Oh yeah, you also get FLY. While not as clear of a replacement, the twin plasma cannon is quite a lot better than the HRR overall, at first blush, too. Fix our Broadsides, damn it!

2) Speaking of invalidating things, WTF, ion cannon? Why do you cost so much? Plasma rocks your world.

3) Tiger Sharks are nasty! Note that the proviso they intitally inserted about not firing the other non rail cannon weapons isn't there. 583pts nets you about a medium vehicle kill and a half per turn on a really durable, fast platform. That's not the absolute most amazing deal ever in terms of pure offense, but it seems worth a try, for sure. God help your opponent if he brings Knights.

4) I'm glad they made shielded drones do something, but I'll still never use them.

5) Remoras not suffering heavy weapon penalties: excellent. They're still crappy units, though.

6) O'Ralai got buffed some, i guess, but he's still no fusion Commander. If I'm spending that many points on a Commander of any kind, he better melt faces in spectacular fashion. 2 Watered-down lascannons is a start but not impressive enough. If only he could actually snipe, he'd be damn good.

 Coyote81 wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:
What do you think of using the alternative hammerheads now that they got their points fixed. I could seem some fun in using the twin heavy burst cannon one, with longstrike support and a single marker light you would have 16 S6 ap-1 shots hitting on a 2+ with a re-roll.

The rest still seem a bit lackluster for their firepower, although the bombardment version seems a lot better than the HYMP broadside, for 37 points you get better movement, more than double the durability and better accuracy although you lose out on the option for ATS

The Twin Plasma Cannon seems much better then the Ion Cannon, and fills a roll that Tau weapons seem to lack.

What role exactly? melting TeQ?

Also, not quite sure the plasma actually IS better than the ion.

Cant get S8 with overcharging (who deals 3 damage per shot too), is it might not be as destructive against High T high wound targets.

Sure, plasma looks good, but I won't be so quick to declare it outright better than ion.

Speaking of Hammerhead weapons, are Ion cannons even worth considering? You get more shots than a Railgun, but those shots are weaker and you don't get that many more. Not sure they are worth the higher price tag, but what does everyone else think?

 Talamare wrote:

So you're saying it suffers from Tactical Squad problems
Buying too much garbage it doesn't use

The truth is 1 shot at 48" doesn't do anything.
BS4 - 1 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 67% chance of failure before the enemies armor is even considered
Even vs a Guardsman = Nearly 80% chance of failure.
It takes nearly 5 Sniper Drones to average 1 Dead Guardsman per turn.

If you want a STRONG 48" Gun, get a Krootox. Those guys are pretty great.

Krootoxen do look good. I'm planning on ordering several.

Comparing drones to an about equal points value of Firewarriors, they have about half the firepower at 1"-15", the same from 16"-24", then the Firewarriors win at 25"-30", then the drones can shoot from 31-48". So, given the drones' increased survivability and mobility, maybe I'd call it a wash?

Except that that requires the additional points investment of the Marksman to increase their BS to 4+. So...hmmm.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

So you're saying it suffers from Tactical Squad problems
Buying too much garbage it doesn't use

The truth is 1 shot at 48" doesn't do anything.
BS4 - 1 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 67% chance of failure before the enemies armor is even considered
Even vs a Guardsman = Nearly 80% chance of failure.
It takes nearly 5 Sniper Drones to average 1 Dead Guardsman per turn.

If you want a STRONG 48" Gun, get a Krootox. Those guys are pretty great.

Krootoxen do look good. I'm planning on ordering several.

Comparing drones to an about equal points value of Firewarriors, they have about half the firepower at 1"-15", the same from 16"-24", then the Firewarriors win at 25"-30", then the drones can shoot from 31-48". So, given the drones' increased survivability and mobility, maybe I'd call it a wash?

On an absolute level, they are more durable (T4 instead of T3, -1 to hit if not closest), but for their points, they are either equally durable or significantly less durable (unless the model firing at you is a BS5+ shooter, so basically Orks and Conscripts).

Example1: a set of 10 lasguns fire at each target outside of Rapid Fire range with a BS of 4+.

Vs Firewarriors: 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/2 fail save. 1/8 * 10 shots = 1.25 dead Firewarriors (10 points)
Vs Sniper Drones: 1/3 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/2 fail save. 1/18*10 shots = 5/9 dead Sniper Drones (10 points)

Example 2: A set of 10 boltguns fire at each target outside of RF range with a BS3+
Vs Firewarriors: 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/2 fail save. 2/9 * 10 shots = 2.22 dead firearriors (roughly 18 points)
Vs Sniper Drones: 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/2 fail saves. 1/8 *10 shots = 1.25 dead Sniper Drones (22.5 points)

Example 3: 5 Plasmaguns fire at each target outside of Rapid Fire range with a BS of 3+
Vs Firewarriors: 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/1 fail saves. 5/9 *10 shots = 5.55 dead firewarriors (roughly 44 points)
vs Sniper Drones: 1/2 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/1 fail saves. 1/3 *10 shots = 3.33 dead Snipers (roughly 60 points)

Replace the first Example with Conscript BS of 5+, and you finally see Sniper Drones have greater durability than Fire Warriors for their points! Wow! Amazing!

They are slightly more mobile and have fly. Ain't getting it past the lid of the Dumpster Fire it currently is in, though.

Except that that requires the additional points investment of the Marksman to increase their BS to 4+. So...hmmm.

Basically. You can keep pretending they're an efficient source of not-aimed-at-hidden-characters dakka, but you're gonna have a hard time convincing anyone in the face of the clear math you face.

Mostly pleased with Tau changes. Some stuff remain, though:

- Y'vhara Nova'ing 1 or 2 weapons?
- High-intensity markerlight is hot garbage
- R'varna costing 1 PL less than a Y'vhara, but more than 30p than the latter
- XV9 Hazard keeping their T5 from 7th, when every other battlesuit got a Toughenss upgrade in 8th
- Tigershark Fighter-Bomber having Ld7 while the AX-1-0 has 8 (why the difference? They're exactly the same model with different upgrades)
- Heavy Gun Drones missing Stable Platform and their own markerlights not helping the unit
- R'alai EMP weapon and Y'vahra's Ionic Discharge Cannon still have wonky 'haywire' rules (worse than any other in the game)

That aside, really liking their attention to the questions people have been sending them!

Currently, Firesight and Sniper Drones strongest ability is in granting +9 Command Points

 Talamare wrote:
Currently, Firesight and Sniper Drones strongest ability is in granting +9 Command Points

I think I never had to spend all the 6CP from my normal lists (when you lack 2 entire phases...), but having 9?

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

So you're saying it suffers from Tactical Squad problems
Buying too much garbage it doesn't use

The truth is 1 shot at 48" doesn't do anything.
BS4 - 1 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 67% chance of failure before the enemies armor is even considered
Even vs a Guardsman = Nearly 80% chance of failure.
It takes nearly 5 Sniper Drones to average 1 Dead Guardsman per turn.

If you want a STRONG 48" Gun, get a Krootox. Those guys are pretty great.

Krootoxen do look good. I'm planning on ordering several.

Comparing drones to an about equal points value of Firewarriors, they have about half the firepower at 1"-15", the same from 16"-24", then the Firewarriors win at 25"-30", then the drones can shoot from 31-48". So, given the drones' increased survivability and mobility, maybe I'd call it a wash?

On an absolute level, they are more durable (T4 instead of T3, -1 to hit if not closest), but for their points, they are either equally durable or significantly less durable (unless the model firing at you is a BS5+ shooter, so basically Orks and Conscripts).

Example1: a set of 10 lasguns fire at each target outside of Rapid Fire range with a BS of 4+.

Vs Firewarriors: 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/2 fail save. 1/8 * 10 shots = 1.25 dead Firewarriors (10 points)
Vs Sniper Drones: 1/3 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/2 fail save. 1/18*10 shots = 5/9 dead Sniper Drones (10 points)

Example 2: A set of 10 boltguns fire at each target outside of RF range with a BS3+
Vs Firewarriors: 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/2 fail save. 2/9 * 10 shots = 2.22 dead firearriors (roughly 18 points)
Vs Sniper Drones: 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/2 fail saves. 1/8 *10 shots = 1.25 dead Sniper Drones (22.5 points)

Example 3: 5 Plasmaguns fire at each target outside of Rapid Fire range with a BS of 3+
Vs Firewarriors: 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/1 fail saves. 5/9 *10 shots = 5.55 dead firewarriors (roughly 44 points)
vs Sniper Drones: 1/2 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/1 fail saves. 1/3 *10 shots = 3.33 dead Snipers (roughly 60 points)

Replace the first Example with Conscript BS of 5+, and you finally see Sniper Drones have greater durability than Fire Warriors for their points! Wow! Amazing!

They are slightly more mobile and have fly. Ain't getting it past the lid of the Dumpster Fire it currently is in, though.

Except that that requires the additional points investment of the Marksman to increase their BS to 4+. So...hmmm.

Basically. You can keep pretending they're an efficient source of not-aimed-at-hidden-characters dakka, but you're gonna have a hard time convincing anyone in the face of the clear math you face.

What if you already have a drone controller and marksmen for other reasons? If you would still have them without the sniper drones I wouldn’t count them as an extra cost.

Some of us already take that marksmen without sniper drones as the marksmen is a great way to start a markerlight chain with 3+ hit and although 3 pathfinders are a little better for maker hits the marksmen has massively more survivability with its 2+ save and character so hard to target.

So if you happen to already have a missile pod commander with a drone controller or broadside with drone controller for your other drone units those snipers are now hitting on 3+ without extra cost. Hitting on 3+ at long range sounds better to me then having a squad of firewarriors sitting outside of range doing nothing.

Saying all this I am still not convinced sniper drones are worthwhile its just under certain circumstances I don’t count the marksmen +drone controller as extra cost. I guess as well technically the marksmen’s boosts the Firewarriors with that +1 reroll. Personally for now I am only taking snipers in my themed stealth list.

Using Marksman will only increase your unit count and diminishes your chance of getting first turn.

I rather use Fireblades, which I'd usually field anyway, to start a ML chain

Any comparison of Sniper Drones vs Strike Teams needs to include the effects of Pulse Accelerator Drones and Cadre Fireblades.

And generally, on most tables 48" range is overkill for anti-infantry firepower, which is what Sniper Drones are. If you need to shoot something 48" away, it's probably pretty tough.

This is why Krootox Riders are so much better.48" S7 AP-1 D3 for 34 points is way, way better than 2 Sniper Drones (though I personally think Krootox Riders don't compare well against Crisis Suits, unless range is your only consideration).

All that said, Sniper Drones are still the only thing the Tau have to shoot characters, and there are still armies that might be useful against (Astra Militarium, Eldar), but let's hope they get buffed (Mortal Wounds on a 6+ wound roll, for example) in the Tau Codex.

Just for the hell of it, I'm going to try sticking a unit of 6 sniper drones near a broadside with a drone controller and see how they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

Alcibiades wrote:
Just for the hell of it, I'm going to try sticking a unit of 6 sniper drones near a broadside with a drone controller and see how they do.

That's the spirit!

I'll try Coldstar and Remoras in my next game

So you're teaming up two of our most over costed units? Sounds like a plan!

Right, back to Hammerheads. I can see the heavy burst cannon being a legitimate option. That's a fairly impressive amount of firepower hitting on 2s (because I'd never delve into Hammerheads without Longstrike). We're not exactly light on mid-strength firepower, but it's worth a look. It's also another reason why Riptides are awful.

Pottsey wrote:

So if you happen to already have a missile pod commander with a drone controller

Missile Pods are so expensive and lose so much effectiveness without ATS, please don't do this!

Not to mention that any weapon used at a Commander's high BS is more effective than improving Drone Shooting.

DC on HRR Broadside is fine, but use your other DCs on a Crisis Suit with Plasma Rifles/Fusion Blaster or Stealth Suits.

 Talamare wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

So if you happen to already have a missile pod commander with a drone controller

Missile Pods are so expensive and lose so much effectiveness without ATS, please don't do this!

Not to mention that any weapon used at a Commander's high BS is more effective than improving Drone Shooting.

DC on HRR Broadside is fine, but use your other DCs on a Crisis Suit with Plasma Rifles/Fusion Blaster or Stealth Suits.

A commander with missile pods and DC is the cheapest long range unit I can think off that can sit in the deployment zone, shoot at long range and still boost all the drones. Stealth Suits are to short range and wasted in your deployment zone (unless someone deep strikes). Broadsides or Crisis cost more pts I would rather spend in other areas.

Anyway I prefer to play themed lists over perfectly optimized lists as its meant to be a fun game not pure maths and effectiveness. Generally speaking I pick a theme and build around it although I do like to know the maths and effectiveness but that comes 2nd to the theme. My last lists I took a squad of marker drones over pathfinders as the pathfinders broke the mechanized theme.

My next game will most likely have a Riptide even though its not the best choice.

Played a few games today with two max squads of gun drones with some markers, fireblade and 3 stealth suits with dc supporting them. The amount of shots they get at 9' is insane. At one point i had 80 shots on overwatch with supporting fire. I mixed in some flamer suits with them and they all did very well. Used them to block deepstrikers and any that did manage get in was dead next turn.

For 8pts you get 4 shots or 6 with fireblade, t4, 4+ save, fly, 8' move and with support bs 4+ and can tank mortal wounds on suits. I think i need more!

9 d6 flamers are great and put opponents off charging with that many dice. Gave vespids a try as well, nice harassment unit, and very fast for jumping on objectives or tying up vehicles.

Pottsey wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

Pottsey wrote:

So if you happen to already have a missile pod commander with a drone controller

Missile Pods are so expensive and lose so much effectiveness without ATS, please don't do this!

Not to mention that any weapon used at a Commander's high BS is more effective than improving Drone Shooting.

DC on HRR Broadside is fine, but use your other DCs on a Crisis Suit with Plasma Rifles/Fusion Blaster or Stealth Suits.

A commander with missile pods and DC is the cheapest long range unit I can think off that can sit in the deployment zone, shoot at long range and still boost all the drones. Stealth Suits are to short range and wasted in your deployment zone (unless someone deep strikes). Broadsides or Crisis cost more pts I would rather spend in other areas.

Anyway I prefer to play themed lists over perfectly optimized lists as its meant to be a fun game not pure maths and effectiveness. Generally speaking I pick a theme and build around it although I do like to know the maths and effectiveness but that comes 2nd to the theme. My last lists I took a squad of marker drones over pathfinders as the pathfinders broke the mechanized theme.

My next game will most likely have a Riptide even though its not the best choice.

XV9 with two of the pulse submunition rifles + a drone controller. Much cheaper than a commander.

What do people think about the kroot shaper? Was thinking I'd try him out, as he is fairly cheap and the re-roll ones to wound for kroot in combination with a marker hit to get them re-rolling ones to hit, doesn't seem awful.

20 kroot and a shaper is only 151 pts, so not breaking the bank.

I've run multiple Kroot and Hounds, Shapers are almost a must.

Has anyone run a disc Ethereal to babysit drones? Seems he could also help with forward Kroot.