Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Talamare wrote:

 Ishotfirst wrote:
At this point with the addition of two more shots for the sun-shark is it worth putting onto the battlefield?

It could be worth while but you would never be able to over clock the guns without the marker light hit.

You shouldn't be overcharging the drones regardless

Even with reroll 1s, it's a heavy weapon on an always moving platform... meaning rolls of 2 will blow the drone too

As well as always moving means that you would be needing 5s to hit instead of 4s

Finally, You will usually be in rapid fire range of something

vs T4 MEQ
Rapid - 4 * 2 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 1.33
Over - 4 * 2 * 1/3 * 5/6 * 1/2 = 1.11

vs T7 Tank
Rapid - 4 * 2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1.0
Over - 4 * 2 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 0.88

===========================

Before buffs vs MEQ
Rapid - 2 * 2 * 1/2 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 0.66
Over - 2 * 2 * 1/3 * 5/6 * 1/2 = 0.55

Rapid - 2 * 2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 0.5
Over - 2 * 2 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 = 0.44

Well. I was going to disagree on overcharge thing. But the index has only shows that the unit doest have stable firing platform like the Tactical drones do. Gonna send up to GW to clarify.

 Ishotfirst wrote:

Well. I was going to disagree on overcharge thing. But the index has only shows that the unit doest have stable firing platform like the Tactical drones do. Gonna send up to GW to clarify.

Even if the drone had it, it wouldn't matter - All Drone Abilities are disabled while being used as weapons on a Tank.
Which means that Gun Drones on a ... Well any of our Vehicles... doesn't need to shoot at the nearest target.

So the Sunshark itself would need to have Stable Platform

Also, ONLY Marker Drones have Stable Platform

No other Tactical Drone types have it

==========================================

As far as the Piranha is concerned, Mathhammer states it performs decently enough for its points.
Meaning it is worth using for the additional mobility and such.

Ok so I have a 1600pt game coming up and I'm super in my head about the last troop choices. I have the ability to take a sun shark, ghost keel, or fusion commander.

I have a lot of d3 damaging guns already but no D6. The gk would cover that and be another tank. The bomber would add more versatility and troop clearing and more d3 missile pods. The fusion commander is great but would be starting off the board with no way of being with-in 9" on the drop.

I could run the bomber and covert an existing commander to fusion. Just run the gk and hope it lives to shoot and do damage. (I'm going into my head again...) So thoughts or insights. I've never used the GK yet so it's a mystery to me.

Ghostkeels are solid units, so are bombers. But if you're after optimization; it's the commander. Easy choice.

I agree on the Commander, one of the most point-efficient units in the game right now.

 Ishotfirst wrote:
Ok so I have a 1600pt game coming up and I'm super in my head about the last troop choices. I have the ability to take a sun shark, ghost keel, or fusion commander.

I have a lot of d3 damaging guns already but no D6. The gk would cover that and be another tank. The bomber would add more versatility and troop clearing and more d3 missile pods. The fusion commander is great but would be starting off the board with no way of being with-in 9" on the drop.

I could run the bomber and covert an existing commander to fusion. Just run the gk and hope it lives to shoot and do damage. (I'm going into my head again...) So thoughts or insights. I've never used the GK yet so it's a mystery to me.

People are probably gonna tell you just take the fusion commander cause its a fusion commander, but honestly it depends on the rest of your list.

Do you have enough anti-infantry shooting, through BCs and pulse weapons and the like? If so, the Sun Shark might be a bit superfluous. Are you packing a lot of low shot but high damage weapons? It might be more useful. Ghostkeel depends more on the loadout you plan on giving him. Keels are quite good and I've had some success with them in 8th. Starting pretty much anywhere on the board it wants makes it incredibly useful for camping objectives or getting a quick first blood or what have you. And the -2 to hit is awesome for survival, not just because it reduces the chance of being hit but because it messes with your opponent's mind (They're not gonna waste their shooting on a target they're only gonna be half as effective against) and if they've never faced one before, they won't know to target the drones. Plus it's T6 with 10W and a 3+, the Keel is pretty durable all things considered with some decent firepower depending on the loadout. Not gonna sing you the fusion commander's praises since everyone else will do that just fine.

But honestly, without seeing your list in full we really can't give you a proper answer as to which unit to take.

I think the GK is a really solid choice.... With the Ion Raker. I really don't like it with the Fusion.

In my limited experience gk is tough but doesn't do as much damage as I'd like. Firstly it has been 3 and 5 fusion shots but hits on 4 or worse. Being in range to shoot means it's native -1 is probably not going to happen on the opponents turn. Commander has consistent 4 shots at 2+ and although it has fewer wounds the opponent must shoot shield drones directly first. Moving the commander manually with a posse of shield drones is less quick but shooting is better. I tend too use both since opponents fear the keel.

Keel is basically trash. Only purpose I see for it is as a hard to dispatch drone controller that is totally reliant on marker light support to have reasonable firepower. With 5 Markers on a target it isn't bad.

I think a unit of stealth suits does this a lot better but they can't take that amount of fusion.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Keel is basically trash. Only purpose I see for it is as a hard to dispatch drone controller that is totally reliant on marker light support to have reasonable firepower. With 5 Markers on a target it isn't bad.

I think a unit of stealth suits does this a lot better but they can't take that amount of fusion.

But to counter their lack of fusion, they can instead bring a homing beacon to potentially ensure your deep striking fusion can land in optimal range.

Everytime I fielded the GK was a great success. I play two of them, with Ion Raker and Burst Cannon, ATS, and sometimes VT, or SI. They are cheap.

I play them in a ML heavy list, and I usually deploy them in or around cover, in a way that I can hide the stealth drones out of line of sight. I also deploy them around 24" from the ennemy deployment zone, or in the middle of the table.

They don't do incredible amounts of damage, but they always seem to brainfuck my opponents, who spend two or sometimes three rounds giving everything they can to bring them down. Which is exactly why I field them, cause at only 170 points, they are amazing disruptors.

 Haechi wrote:
Everytime I fielded the GK was a great success. I play two of them, with Ion Raker and Burst Cannon, ATS, and sometimes VT, or SI. They are cheap.

I play them in a ML heavy list, and I usually deploy them in or around cover, in a way that I can hide the stealth drones out of line of sight. I also deploy them around 24" from the ennemy deployment zone, or in the middle of the table.

They don't do incredible amounts of damage, but they always seem to brainfuck my opponents, who spend two or sometimes three rounds giving everything they can to bring them down. Which is exactly why I field them, cause at only 170 points, they are amazing disruptors.

Well - soon they will learn to ignore the thing. I just played against tau last night - I completely ignored the thing even though I had the perfect weapon to hurt it. Dark reapers. He fired 5 times with it and it did maybe 80 points of damage. You are running it the right way though - with lots of marker light support. My opponent had 8 pathfinders - not enough.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

 Ishotfirst wrote:
Ok so I have a 1600pt game coming up and I'm super in my head about the last troop choices. I have the ability to take a sun shark, ghost keel, or fusion commander.

I have a lot of d3 damaging guns already but no D6. The gk would cover that and be another tank. The bomber would add more versatility and troop clearing and more d3 missile pods. The fusion commander is great but would be starting off the board with no way of being with-in 9" on the drop.

I could run the bomber and covert an existing commander to fusion. Just run the gk and hope it lives to shoot and do damage. (I'm going into my head again...) So thoughts or insights. I've never used the GK yet so it's a mystery to me.

People are probably gonna tell you just take the fusion commander cause its a fusion commander, but honestly it depends on the rest of your list.

Do you have enough anti-infantry shooting, through BCs and pulse weapons and the like? If so, the Sun Shark might be a bit superfluous. Are you packing a lot of low shot but high damage weapons? It might be more useful. Ghostkeel depends more on the loadout you plan on giving him. Keels are quite good and I've had some success with them in 8th. Starting pretty much anywhere on the board it wants makes it incredibly useful for camping objectives or getting a quick first blood or what have you. And the -2 to hit is awesome for survival, not just because it reduces the chance of being hit but because it messes with your opponent's mind (They're not gonna waste their shooting on a target they're only gonna be half as effective against) and if they've never faced one before, they won't know to target the drones. Plus it's T6 with 10W and a 3+, the Keel is pretty durable all things considered with some decent firepower depending on the loadout. Not gonna sing you the fusion commander's praises since everyone else will do that just fine.

But honestly, without seeing your list in full we really can't give you a proper answer as to which unit to take.

I know my opponent watches the forums more carefully than I do so it's hard to post a full list before the game. But I do have a lot of anti-inf packed in my list. 40+ models just for that. As mentioned I have a large amount of d3 damaging units. I'm lacking the heavy fusion punch so that's why the question is posted. As mentioned I have a commander that could go fusion for the sergical removal of a vehicle but this remains of how then to load out the GK or run the sun-shark. One purpose I had for the GK was to follow my drones to give them a DC bonus but the brings him super close to enemy units.

Edit: don't want to search for it but fusion commander load out is typically just 4 FB correct?
Has anyone run the all FB load out on the GK? Would it be better to do the Ion Raker and 2 FB?

So, I suddenly find myself in possession of 24 Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines and two Devilfish to go with 'em.

The question is, are they ever useful? Drones would be a tad more durable and, minus the Devilfish, would be faster for the same points. The Warriors get Photon Grenades but nothing else (unless I move them to 11 + a Fireblade leader) ... if there ever a time when you need to use these guys?

Yes. They are a good mobile force. What you need to do, if possible, is to use a Pulse Accelerator Drone with them, so you can shoot at 24".

Also, and to make full use of the Carbines, you need to play them as objective grabbers and advance as much as you need to, without hesitation.

The difference with Rifles isn't that big anyway. It's like you have the rapide fire effect at 18" instead of 15, but can't shoot at 30. So play them offensively.

 Ishotfirst wrote:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

 Ishotfirst wrote:
Ok so I have a 1600pt game coming up and I'm super in my head about the last troop choices. I have the ability to take a sun shark, ghost keel, or fusion commander.

I have a lot of d3 damaging guns already but no D6. The gk would cover that and be another tank. The bomber would add more versatility and troop clearing and more d3 missile pods. The fusion commander is great but would be starting off the board with no way of being with-in 9" on the drop.

I could run the bomber and covert an existing commander to fusion. Just run the gk and hope it lives to shoot and do damage. (I'm going into my head again...) So thoughts or insights. I've never used the GK yet so it's a mystery to me.

People are probably gonna tell you just take the fusion commander cause its a fusion commander, but honestly it depends on the rest of your list.

Do you have enough anti-infantry shooting, through BCs and pulse weapons and the like? If so, the Sun Shark might be a bit superfluous. Are you packing a lot of low shot but high damage weapons? It might be more useful. Ghostkeel depends more on the loadout you plan on giving him. Keels are quite good and I've had some success with them in 8th. Starting pretty much anywhere on the board it wants makes it incredibly useful for camping objectives or getting a quick first blood or what have you. And the -2 to hit is awesome for survival, not just because it reduces the chance of being hit but because it messes with your opponent's mind (They're not gonna waste their shooting on a target they're only gonna be half as effective against) and if they've never faced one before, they won't know to target the drones. Plus it's T6 with 10W and a 3+, the Keel is pretty durable all things considered with some decent firepower depending on the loadout. Not gonna sing you the fusion commander's praises since everyone else will do that just fine.

But honestly, without seeing your list in full we really can't give you a proper answer as to which unit to take.

I know my opponent watches the forums more carefully than I do so it's hard to post a full list before the game. But I do have a lot of anti-inf packed in my list. 40+ models just for that. As mentioned I have a large amount of d3 damaging units. I'm lacking the heavy fusion punch so that's why the question is posted. As mentioned I have a commander that could go fusion for the sergical removal of a vehicle but this remains of how then to load out the GK or run the sun-shark. One purpose I had for the GK was to follow my drones to give them a DC bonus but the brings him super close to enemy units.

Edit: don't want to search for it but fusion commander load out is typically just 4 FB correct?
Has anyone run the all FB load out on the GK? Would it be better to do the Ion Raker and 2 FB?

CIR is like a joke, a single d6 shots on the overcharge means MASSIVE uncertainty when you shoot.
6 very standard Ion Rifle shots is what you get from like a 50 point Pathfinder squad.

Hell, you could even bring a Sunshark, detach the drones and use just the drones as 4-8 Ion Rifle shots...

As far as I see it, GK should always go Fusion
and yea Fusion Monat is always 4 FB.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:
So, I suddenly find myself in possession of 24 Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines and two Devilfish to go with 'em.

The question is, are they ever useful? Drones would be a tad more durable and, minus the Devilfish, would be faster for the same points. The Warriors get Photon Grenades but nothing else (unless I move them to 11 + a Fireblade leader) ... if there ever a time when you need to use these guys?

I would just tell my opponent that they are Pathfinders

Wakshaani wrote:
So, I suddenly find myself in possession of 24 Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines and two Devilfish to go with 'em.

The question is, are they ever useful? Drones would be a tad more durable and, minus the Devilfish, would be faster for the same points. The Warriors get Photon Grenades but nothing else (unless I move them to 11 + a Fireblade leader) ... if there ever a time when you need to use these guys?

You can run them as normal strike team but put them in a devilfish to go get objectives. Upgrade the sergeant to have a marker light which will allow for an Ok-ish attempt at having a re-role to 1's when hopping out. Or you could get a Pulse accelerator drone and run them as pathfinders they will be the same price point wise but with less of an armor save, most players won't care as long as they can identify what they are. But the increase to range through the accelerator is nice.

 Haechi wrote:
Yes. They are a good mobile force. What you need to do, if possible, is to use a Pulse Accelerator Drone with them, so you can shoot at 24".

Also, and to make full use of the Carbines, you need to play them as objective grabbers and advance as much as you need to, without hesitation.

The difference with Rifles isn't that big anyway. It's like you have the rapide fire effect at 18" instead of 15, but can't shoot at 30. So play them offensively.

Strike teams and Breacher teams cannot take an accelerator drone. They need to get it from a path finder team, or be a pathfinder team from the start.

I'd paint a few differently, call them pathfinder, and buy the done bits. As an opponent I'd also be fine if you said they were breachers.

So can I run a XV107 R'varna Battlesuit without feeling bad now?


Also, has a comparison been done between the broadside(missile) and a commander with 4 missile pods?
The commander could fill a similar role to a broadside with a bit more mobility, better BS, minus the SMS systems, but for less points. Thoughts?

CIR is like a joke, a single d6 shots on the overcharge means MASSIVE uncertainty when you shoot.
6 very standard Ion Rifle shots is what you get from like a 50 point Pathfinder squad.

Hell, you could even bring a Sunshark, detach the drones and use just the drones as 4-8 Ion Rifle shots...

As far as I see it, GK should always go Fusion
and yea Fusion Monat is always 4 FB.

I agree that the overcharge seems silly on the CIR. However, when back up by an ATS, the basic CIR profile is pretty effective. I don't think I'd bother with 2 more fusion blasters instead of it, especially when fusion Commanders exist. S7 shots aren't something we're in short supply of, but Pathfinders aren't anywhere near as durable as the Ghostkeel and give up 9" range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I hadn't paid much attention to ITC rules, but it looks like you can use Ta'unars for the moment. While the Ta'unar is a fairly underpowered for its cost, it's a battlesuit, so you can abuse the living hell out of savior protocols. Since Gun Drones are basically our best unit at the moment, taking tons of them isn't exactly a tax. You can fairly easily create a mobile wall of drones, probably with some substantial aura buffs, and stomp around blowing the living piss out of whatever ails you with the Ta'unar and slam it all into 2000pts. I know it's not going to win you any friends, but it sounds fairly competitive to me. Has anybody tried that?

YangusTheGreat wrote:
So can I run a XV107 R'varna Battlesuit without feeling bad now?


Also, has a comparison been done between the broadside(missile) and a commander with 4 missile pods?
The commander could fill a similar role to a broadside with a bit more mobility, better BS, minus the SMS systems, but for less points. Thoughts?

R'varna isn't that hot (average 12 shots, 6 hits, wounds 66% of the time vs anything T4-5 (most stuff in the game)... probably kills 2-3 marines per turn). And, also, it wasn't taht much after the AP4 change. I think it's a bit overcosted for what it does now.

Commander vs Broadside: I'd rather use the Commander or a Heavy Bombardment Hammerhead (FW index) than a HYMP Broadside all the time. I think only the HRR Broadside can find some use and still be worth its points

MilkmanAl wrote:

CIR is like a joke, a single d6 shots on the overcharge means MASSIVE uncertainty when you shoot.
6 very standard Ion Rifle shots is what you get from like a 50 point Pathfinder squad.

Hell, you could even bring a Sunshark, detach the drones and use just the drones as 4-8 Ion Rifle shots...

As far as I see it, GK should always go Fusion
and yea Fusion Monat is always 4 FB.

I agree that the overcharge seems silly on the CIR. However, when back up by an ATS, the basic CIR profile is pretty effective. I don't think I'd bother with 2 more fusion blasters instead of it, especially when fusion Commanders exist. S7 shots aren't something we're in short supply of, but Pathfinders aren't anywhere near as durable as the Ghostkeel and give up 9" range.

"Commanders exist" invalidates so much...

Heavy 6 24" S7 AP-2 Shots?
Assault 6 36" AP-2 Shots OR Assault 9 18" S7 AP-2 Shots

 Talamare wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:

CIR is like a joke, a single d6 shots on the overcharge means MASSIVE uncertainty when you shoot.
6 very standard Ion Rifle shots is what you get from like a 50 point Pathfinder squad.

Hell, you could even bring a Sunshark, detach the drones and use just the drones as 4-8 Ion Rifle shots...

As far as I see it, GK should always go Fusion
and yea Fusion Monat is always 4 FB.

I agree that the overcharge seems silly on the CIR. However, when back up by an ATS, the basic CIR profile is pretty effective. I don't think I'd bother with 2 more fusion blasters instead of it, especially when fusion Commanders exist. S7 shots aren't something we're in short supply of, but Pathfinders aren't anywhere near as durable as the Ghostkeel and give up 9" range.

"Commanders exist" invalidates so much...

Heavy 6 24" S7 AP-2 Shots?
Assault 6 36" AP-2 Shots OR Assault 9 18" S7 AP-2 Shots

To be fair, it only invalidates everything it does when all we compare is the math hammer of average damage dealt under ideal circumstances, ignoring things like durability and survivability. You're also conveniently ignoring that the Keel comes with 2 additional weapons with the CIR, while those S7 shots are all the Commander has.

Heavy 6 24" S7 AP -2 WITH Assault 2 S8 AP -5 D D6/Assault 8 S5 AP -1/Assault 2D6 S4 AP -1 on a T6, W10, 3+ platform that is always -1 to hit outside of 12" and automatically comes with a Drone that gives the platform an additional -1 to hit at all times when the Drone is within 3" (And still has an additional support system slot open to take whatever you need/want on it).
Assault 6 36" S7 AP -2 OR Assault 9 18" S7 AP -2 on a T5, W6, 3+ platform with the character keyword (who has no additional hardpoints left meaning that that is as survivable as he gets).

Suddenly we have a much different picture being painted here when we include more relevant information regarding the choice.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

To be fair, it only invalidates everything it does when all we compare is the math hammer of average damage dealt under ideal circumstances, ignoring things like durability and survivability. You're also conveniently ignoring that the Keel comes with 2 additional weapons with the CIR, while those S7 shots are all the Commander has.

Heavy 6 24" S7 AP -2 WITH Assault 2 S8 AP -5 D D6/Assault 8 S5 AP -1/Assault 2D6 S4 AP -1 on a T6, W10, 3+ platform that is always -1 to hit outside of 12" and automatically comes with a Drone that gives the platform an additional -1 to hit at all times when the Drone is within 3" (And still has an additional support system slot open to take whatever you need/want on it).
Assault 6 36" S7 AP -2 OR Assault 9 18" S7 AP -2 on a T5, W6, 3+ platform with the character keyword (who has no additional hardpoints left meaning that that is as survivable as he gets).

Suddenly we have a much different picture being painted here when we include more relevant information regarding the choice.

Then we circle back to BS+2
vs BS+4 that becomes BS+5 at half HP

Also Character Armor~

Tho, seriously. I'm not trying to say GKs are bad. I just don't see CIR as a great weapon because of the stupid d6 Overload. Tho, it being Heavy doesn't help either.

 Vector Strike wrote:

YangusTheGreat wrote:
So can I run a XV107 R'varna Battlesuit without feeling bad now?


Also, has a comparison been done between the broadside(missile) and a commander with 4 missile pods?
The commander could fill a similar role to a broadside with a bit more mobility, better BS, minus the SMS systems, but for less points. Thoughts?

R'varna isn't that hot (average 12 shots, 6 hits, wounds 66% of the time vs anything T4-5 (most stuff in the game)... probably kills 2-3 marines per turn). And, also, it wasn't taht much after the AP4 change. I think it's a bit overcosted for what it does now.

Play the 107 yourself - I have found it to be quite powerful - but then I am also using it against mid toughness units (t6, T7).

For example, against tyranids (which a lot of are coming back) it just destroys them. Most are T6 - this thing is -3 to saves (thanks to the free ATS) and just destroys at 3 damage each.

Overcharge the munitions and you are getting insane numbers of shots - I am getting about 12 shots out of this.
It comes with its own built in markerlight (the multi tracker) - of those 12, hitting with about 8.
3 damage is awesome vs. D3 that a lot of other weapons in its range have

It is also fun to play with the shockwave - wade into a bunch of units and zap them. oh, and for icing on the cake - it can use drones for wounds as it is a battlesuit.

Unless your meta have a ton of T7 and up units, this should do well. But again - PLAY with it - NOTHING beats actual experience.

best of luck!

 GI_Redshirt wrote:


To be fair, it only invalidates everything it does when all we compare is the math hammer of average damage dealt under ideal circumstances, ignoring things like durability and survivability. You're also conveniently ignoring that the Keel comes with 2 additional weapons with the CIR, while those S7 shots are all the Commander has.

Eeeem, no.
The commander is superior is nearly every scenario, and including the extra weapons the keel has.

Not as hard to kill, true, but more likely to get his shots off properly with his weapons not being heavy,


Keels are just bad at killing stuff, not just compared to commanders but in general-their only merit is being generally hard to kill, but that alone is not enough.

davethepak wrote:
Play the 107 yourself - I have found it to be quite powerful - but then I am also using it against mid toughness units (t6, T7).

For example, against tyranids (which a lot of are coming back) it just destroys them. Most are T6 - this thing is -3 to saves (thanks to the free ATS) and just destroys at 3 damage each.

Overcharge the munitions and you are getting insane numbers of shots - I am getting about 12 shots out of this.
It comes with its own built in markerlight (the multi tracker) - of those 12, hitting with about 8.
3 damage is awesome vs. D3 that a lot of other weapons in its range have

It is also fun to play with the shockwave - wade into a bunch of units and zap them. oh, and for icing on the cake - it can use drones for wounds as it is a battlesuit.

Unless your meta have a ton of T7 and up units, this should do well. But again - PLAY with it - NOTHING beats actual experience.

best of luck!

I will test it soon. But my ordinary opponents use infantry a lot - only the AM guy likes vehicles in same proportion of soldiers... And the 107 it isn't cheap at all!
You're needing to NOVA it to get the average 12 shots? Damn. I was expecting 15 average shots when NOVAing.

It comes with a base Multi-tracker? Lol, never noticed that before. But ATS isn't free, you need to pay for it (same with Stimulant Injector). It's sad it can't take other support systems - EWO would be quite nifty on it.

The R'Varna seems to be an okay-ish suit to take. Math tells us it's decent against hard targets with a lot of wounds, but we have lots of other options that are better for that task, like, you know, fusion Commanders. It's rock hard on its own and even more so due to drones but lacks the FLY keyword, which really sort of sucks a lot. I'd give it a whirl but wouldn't count on it producing more than the similarly-costed Y'Vahra.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:


To be fair, it only invalidates everything it does when all we compare is the math hammer of average damage dealt under ideal circumstances, ignoring things like durability and survivability. You're also conveniently ignoring that the Keel comes with 2 additional weapons with the CIR, while those S7 shots are all the Commander has.

Eeeem, no.
The commander is superior is nearly every scenario, and including the extra weapons the keel has.

Not as hard to kill, true, but more likely to get his shots off properly with his weapons not being heavy,


Keels are just bad at killing stuff, not just compared to commanders but in general-their only merit is being generally hard to kill, but that alone is not enough.

You are correct. However, if you are including a Keel in your army, you should be taking enough marker lights to get some 3+ BS, re roll 1's out of your Keel and other squads in your army that are BS 4+. If you dont have markerlights in your army, dont take a Keel. Pretty much applies to anything BS 4+ in a Tau army. Once a squad is lit up, all of a sudden the Keel is GOOD at killing stuff.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:


To be fair, it only invalidates everything it does when all we compare is the math hammer of average damage dealt under ideal circumstances, ignoring things like durability and survivability. You're also conveniently ignoring that the Keel comes with 2 additional weapons with the CIR, while those S7 shots are all the Commander has.

Eeeem, no.
The commander is superior is nearly every scenario, and including the extra weapons the keel has.

Not as hard to kill, true, but more likely to get his shots off properly with his weapons not being heavy,


Keels are just bad at killing stuff, not just compared to commanders but in general-their only merit is being generally hard to kill, but that alone is not enough.

Ghostkeels are bad at killing stuff? Hmm, guess I'll have to have a talk with my Ghostkeels, they've been doing pretty darn well at killing things this edition, gonna have to tell them to tone it down a bit, they're not supposed to do well on the table. As for the heavy weapon thing, Target Locks do exist, and honestly are kinda auto include on the bigger suits (Broadsides, Ghostkeels, and Riptides). Regardless of my feelings on support systems being considered auto include on certain units, it kinda is on them, and if you run them without a TL, then you're kinda just asking them to not perform well. Not particularly happy that that's the case, but it is what it is.